Israel is preparing the battlefield

[Pharaoh]

We are now in the period preceding major conventional operations. Israel is in the process of sealing the Lebanese coast. They have disrupted Lebanese telecommunications, although they have not completely collapsed the structure. Israeli aircraft are attacking Hezbollah's infrastructure and road system. In the meantime, Hezbollah, aware it is going to be hit hard, is in a use-it or-lose-it scenario, firing what projectiles it can into Israel.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14005.htm


:dem: :dem: :dem:

[Redstone]

1. Well, they did challenge the Israelis to a mano-a-mano fight, and now

they're getting it. Hope they enjoy it.

Redstone

[ContraBass Black]

7. Hezbolla challenged Israel.

Lebanon is having an awfully hard time getting out of the way.

[Redstone]

10. That's what I said. The Lebanese government GAVE them half of Lebanon,

and is now paying for not taking the responsiblilty of controlling its own territory.

If the US let those asshole Minutemen control all our southern border states, and kill Mexicans at will, we'd deserve to have the Mexican army beat the hell out of us if they could.

Wouldn't we?

Redstone

[ContraBass Black]

14. You weren't specific.

[Redstone]

28. Sorry. I should have been more specific saying it was Hezbollah who

issued the challenge, and not the Lebanese government. I had figured that people here would know that, because it was in the newspapers.

But you're right. I hereby correct my mistake.

Redstone

[Clark2008]

18. No, they didn't.

They acquiesced. They hadn't the means to be able to do anything else but let them. It's not as if they wanted to do that. They're not oil-producing rich, afterall.

[PA Democrat]

22. The Lebanese government is very fragile and does not have control over

Hezbollah. The fear is that Lebanese troops would lose if they were to take on Hezbollah unaided. Right now, this whole mess just may plunge Lebanon back into another civil war.

[k_jerome]

47. then for Israels security...

they should exert the control the Lebanese govt cannot.

[PA Democrat]

57. Yes, that worked so well during Lebanon's civil war didn't it?

Hezbollah came to power because of Israel's invasion of Lebanon in the 80's. Another full-fledged invasion by Israel will only swell Hezbollah's ranks.

The best solution would be an international force. Shame that Bush has been busy trying to undermine and wreak havoc on the UN, rather than try to strengthen its influence in situations just like this one.

[k_jerome]

70. Hezbollah came to power because people with a common...

cause - hatred for Israel - decided to form a group to better carry out their wishes - destruction of the jewish state. A wish shared by many in the world for many centuries.

[PA Democrat]

78. I am not arguing that there are not many people who would like to

destroy Israel, but the fact of the matter is that Hezbollah was formed as a direct reaction to Israel's invasion of Lebanon.

"Hezbollah - or Party of God - emerged in Lebanon in the early 1980s and became the region's leading radical Islamic movement, determined to drive Israeli troops from Lebanon."

and

"Hezbollah was conceived in 1982 by a group of clerics after the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. It was formed primarily to offer resistance to the Israeli occupation."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1908671.stm

That is fact. The question is whether another invasion of Lebanon by Israel would eliminate Hezbollah or merely recruit more members? I think we've seen what happened when we invaded Iraq. A lot of people out there who didn't like the U.S. become radicalized when they saw the suffering inflicted on a civilian population.

[k_jerome]

85. point taken. i would argue...

that groups such as Hezbollah, and many others would form even if Israel sat on its hands and lined up for the cattle cars.

[Recursion]

95. Funny

but the fact of the matter is that Hezbollah was formed as a direct reaction to Israel's invasion of Lebanon

That's odd, I seem to recall Israel withdrawing from Lebanon in 2000. If Hezbollah's goal was removing Israel from Lebanon and not "liberating" all of Israel, why did Hezbollah keep fighting?

[mmonk]

27. Hezbollah could probably beat Lebanese forces

and/or collapse and fold the country. Anyway, it would be horribly bloody. The Lebanese people have suffered greatly between all the different groups from the Druze and Christian militias and the conflicts between Hezbollah and Israel. I know pretty much you don't care if the people die there, as you hold them as much responsible. Just don't come off so much so.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mmonk]

30. I won't be as nasty to you. Your post comes off that way.

Maybe it should be modified.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mmonk]

33. Don't be so high and mighty.

Read your post. They deserve it as we would if we allowed the minutemen to control our border and kill Mexicans is how I read it. If you meant something else, say it.

[Redstone]

36. I said the Lebanese GOVERNMENT is responsible.

Not the civilians. I said that if a GOVERNMENT lets terrorists control half its country and provoke a much more powerful neighbor at will, then they are to blame.

So, let's say the Canadian government let people take over southern Ontario and fire rockets into Michigan? Would that be OK?

Redstone

[mmonk]

49. Fine.

But the Lebanese government is too weak (almost by design unfortunately).

[Redstone]

56. I saw you say that earlier, and you're right. But is that the fault of

the Israelis, who in fact LEFT Lebanon six years ago?

I don't give a red rat's ass WHO is in charge, be it the Lebanese government, or the Syrians by proxy, SOMEONE let those people sit in southern Lebanon and provoke the Israelis for six years.

And if they hadn't done that, NONE of this would have happened.

Redstone

[mmonk]

58. You seek blame,

I don't. It's way beyond that point, now. I'd like to see some solutions but international structures and mechanisms have been weakened by the US lately. It will be interesting if someone will try.

[barb162]

77. yep!

The Lebanese tried to intergrate them into their government. OOPS! That sometimes doesn't work with terror groups as this case is proving so tragically

[cali]

8. I disagree

with you on that- I think Israel's response to the H'zbollah provocation is terrible- but go take a gander at the responses to the article on Information Clearinghouse. Unfuckingbelievable.

[k_jerome]

12. do you suggest they get in line for genocide again? nt.

[cali]

13. How did you get that from

my opinion that they did the wrong thing in bombing the shit out of Lebanon? And those people count too, you know.

[k_jerome]

25. they are striking at targets that are a threat to their security.

accidental killing of civilians is a tragedy. they aim the weapons and things can go horribly wrong sometimes. compare to the terrorists that indiscrimantly kill anyone and everyone. Israel is defending their own existence. Hezobollah and Hamas are simply terrorist organizations that must be eradicated. Lebanon sanctions and even supports operations against Israelis, they must pay the consequences and reap the rewards of their support. Maybe they will wake up and take care of the monsters in their midst themselves.

I am pretty sure Jews will not sit by and wait for civilized western democracies to rescue them. That did not work out so well for them before. I would not be surprised if attitudes of the civilian population in this country before and during the Holocaust was similar to some of the attitudes I have seen over the past days.

[barb162]

79. Good points

I agree.

[Andromeda]

92. Very good points, kj...

[rockymountaindem]

15. Yeah, but I'm not surprised

The visceral hatred for Israel is hard to avoid.

[Clark2008]

21. Hatred for their government - a fixed asset - not the people.

eom

[cali]

48. Go read the comments at the linked site

and then come back and tell me with a straight face that it's merely hatred for the country of Israel.

[rockymountaindem]

52. Did you read those comments? n.t

[cali]

94. Alas,

Those comments will be assiduously ignored.

[cali]

45. That wasn't

merely hatred for Israel, it was hard core anti-semiticism.

[enigmacat]

24. "They" challenged Israel?

You mean Hezbollah? Maybe you mean the many dead citizens of Lebanon and Palestine. I guess to you they are simply collateral damage. Obviously, you are unable to hold a logical conversation. Or is it, whatever Israel does is okey-dokey in your warped book?
Armchair warriors make me sick.

[Redstone]

38. Hezbollah DID challenge Israel. Publicly. And how, from that, do you

get your accusations?

And if you knew me, you'd know I'm NOT an "armchair warrior." How about if you do some fucking research before you call people names?

Next time, before you charge into a room full of people you don't know, think twice about insulting anyone in that room. You'll be glad you did, because you have NO FUCKING IDEA who that person is who you're insulting.

Redstone

[k_jerome]

46. i feel the same way about radical islamist apologists. nt.

[barb162]

80. Are dead Israeli citizens collateral damage too?

I don't notice that those shooting rockets out of Gaza (every damned day for the last several months) or coming out of Lebanon worrying about collateral damage. Aren't they practicing collective punishment and their governments not doing a thing to stop it?

[blonndee]

83. What does that have to do with whether or not

Israel should be recklessly killing innocent civilians? Neither "side" has the right to do that, and most people here acknowledge that...except for those who somehow (and for god knows what reason) feel compelled to justify it by pointing out the bad things the OTHER side has done.

[barb162]

87. Israel has been exercising restraint.

It's put out several announcements to people to clear areas for example. DOes Hezbollah or Hamas give such warnings to Israel with the daily rocket attacks. I haven't noticed. I wonder how those who for some reason expect one side to do something but not the other. One side should be doing "civilized " warfare but not the other? It's war.

[blonndee]

88. And then they bomb those who do try to get out.

Again, why the need to justify bad acts by pointing to what the other side has done? I don't see anyone here saying that Hezbollah is even close to being "right." That's a total strawman argument and detracts from real discussion of the issue.

[barb162]

91. Because this is about "sides" in a war

And if people want to point out: look what x is doing, then it is appropriate to say well, look what y is doing and the interaction AND reaction of x and y. Why did you mention they bombed people trying to get out? BTW, They bombed infrastructure, not necessarily people trying to get out.

[akazoo]

32. how do you justify the complete destruction of the Lebanese infrastru

If Hizballa challenged Israel by abducting 2 soldiers, then how do you justify the complete destruction of the Lebanese infrastructure!! What is this a revenge?? So, now every time some country does something to another , you go and destroy the whole country??? Where is the UN? Where is the Geneva Convention applied!!!!????
And BUSH says he cannot interfere??? I see he is interfering in destruction warfares!!! And we get surpirsed when we see terrorists that hates us!! This is the wrong policy, I hope this will not take us down further!!

[Redstone]

39. Abducting two soldiers? How about firing over a THOUSAND rockets

into Israel in the last few years?

Do your fucking homework, please.

Redstone

[akazoo]

59. What is this teeth for teeth mentality??

So you are telling me that Israeli is revenging for all those rockets now?? Hizbulla is wrong no matter what, but if you want to stop those terrorist groups, such a war is not the answer!!!
Plus, what about you do the homework and compare the rockets hit by Hizbolla with the missiles hit by Israel!! What is this teeth for teeth mentality??

[Redstone]

66. When you can make a post that's not gibberish, I'll answer.

Unless English is not your native language. In that case, I'll make allowances.

redstone

[akazoo]

71. Sorry for being unclear!

All I wanted to say is that the War in Lebanon which is backed up by BUSH, does not solve anything! It will not be a solution for Israel, US or Lebanon... These kind of policies and war mentalities are dangerous and can only create more extremist groups!!

[barb162]

84. The G8 nations put out a statement about Israel having

the right to defend itself. It isn't just Bush. The extremist groups want Israel destroyed. What's Israel supposed to do? Stand there and let them do it? Do 100% surgical strikes, which don't exist in reality? Perhaps one could suggest to Hezbollah and Hamas to exercise restraint.

[blonndee]

86. The G8 statement also called on Israel to exercise restraint

so I think that answers the question as to what they think Israel should do.

"In a statement from their summit in Russia, G8 leaders urged Israel to exercise the "utmost restraint" in its offensive in Lebanon. But they blamed the crisis squarely on "extremist elements" and called for the return of Israeli captives and an end to rocket attacks

The statement said an end to Israeli military operations and withdrawal of forces from Gaza were other conditions needed to "lay the foundation for a more permanent solution". "

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/488120/789984

[k_jerome]

44. they fire countless rockets into Israel from Lebanon.

Destruction of these assets is completely justified.

[akazoo]

61. It will not help!!!

Never!! You cannot justify such a war... I tell you if Israel couldnot strip and abolish Hammas and other terrorists in Israel, how would it help by destroying lebanon??? Would that help in stripping Hizbulla from its weapons... NO WAY@@

[k_jerome]

72. so they did more than kidnap soldiers...

and the response is measured and justified.

[niyad]

64. welcome to DU--you are probably going to get flamed big time for your

attempt to find some sensible ground and action. good luck

[otokogi]

41. mano-a-mano - how childish a characterization

yet revealing

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[niyad]

65. "at the well of sarah and hagar"

it's a real pity that you haven't seen this amazing piece as I did, or even thought about all the work that israeli and palestinian women are doing jointly to try to find an end to the horrors going on there. as they both said during the presentation, it no longer matters who is right or wrong, it simply has to stop.

Peace Talk, The Female Way
by Stephanie Hiller

Against a background of bloodshed and death portrayed via film and slides, three women from the land of "holiness and conflict" enacted an alternative to the violent conflict in the Middle East in a performance that toured the US in February 2006.

'By the Well of Sarah and Hagar' is a "sacred theatrical collage sharing the journeys of two women, Muslim and Jew", according to the flyer for the event. In this little play, a Palestinian woman and an Israeli approach each other in pain to extend the hand of reconciliation. The third woman - Mia Cohen - who holds a large mirror, introduces herself as the witness. "I am you."

The two women, Ibtisum Mahamid and Dorit Bat Shalom, play themselves - two women of war-torn Palestine and Israel. This collaborative effort by the three women - Mahamid, Shalom and Cohen - works at many levels.

Mahamid tells her story - the expulsion of her family during Al-Nakba (the refugee flight of Palestinian Arabs during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war).

Footage taken by an Israeli father whose son was killed in the intifada - and shown at the beginning of the performance - tells the other side of the story. As Shalom explained during the discussion following the performance, the conflict is a complex story; what the women have in common is their pain. Shalom herself turned to peace work after her brother was killed in the 1967 Six Day War.

"Israeli and Palestinian women can come together because they have the same problem: they feel unsafe. Something inside tells them not to forget the past, but not to get stuck in it. What can we do together to change it.

. . . . . . . . .

http://www.boloji.com/wfs5/wfs560.htm

[Redstone]

67. The women always try to stop the madness, don't they?

And that's NOT a sarcastic sentence.

Damn, wouldn't it be nice if they could get someone to listen to them?

Redstone

[barb162]

76. Yes, their attack was unprovoked and outrageous

Israel has the right to defend itself fgrom this

[whistle]

2. Thank you, very objective, very informative, is it true?

[Pharaoh]

3. well infoclearinghouse

has always been a very good source for me,

[whistle]

4. Okay, but I meant could they be manipulated into reporting

...as fact events that have actually not taken place....who knows, answered my own question....I'm getting paranoid and scared. The idea that Syria could be a target also, just scares the shit out of me. If that happens this whole thing could cascade into a full nuclear war with all powers being drawn in. That makes me angry to think all this time wasted on trivial crap during the last two and a half years leaving BushCo in power to really fuck things up!

[Pharaoh]

16. well yes this could be seriously bad

But the whole area has been a tinder box for some time............is this WW3?
Could be, these things take time to play out so lets just keep our cool for now :hide:

[cali]

5. It's a repost from Strafor

and that's what they do, so I imagine it's as accurate as something like that can be.

[hack89]

9. From a military perspective it makes sense...

you isolate the enemy so he can't move. You restrict his ability to move reinforcements and supplies. Also restrict his ability to retreat so they can't avoid fighting.

In addition, you make it hard for central command to communicate with lower echelons.

I think Israel is preparing for a ground offensive - Hezbolah will be pinned in position and will be mauled. Israel will then stay in Lebanon until they are certain that hezbolah will not have control of the border again.

[kevinbgoode]

6. And what will happen when the Hezzies shoot the rockets

from inside Syria?

[hack89]

11. Syria better stop them or they get wacked. nt

[Clarkie1]

17. If that happened, I have no doubt Israel would destroy them in Syria. nt

[Redstone]

40. Which WILL happen. Thanks for pointing that out.

Redstone

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. The sledghammer approach to foreign relations. Worked well in Iraq.

Hasn't it?

[k_jerome]

26. the approach advocated by many here...

worked well for jews in Europe in the 30's and 40's. Didn't it?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. The Nazis used that methodology against the partisans and Jews.

At Orodour-sur-Marne, Lidice, and countless other places. Of course, it was done to "protect German soldiers" and the Reich.

[k_jerome]

43. so the Jews in Israel are Nazis?

I don't understand what you are saying.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

51. The methodology of collective punishment is much the same.

The partisans hid among the populace in the conquered countries. As did the Jews when they could, and became partisans themselves. The Nazis would destroy whole villages/towns in order to "root them out".

It was also the rationale used to justify "terror bombing" used by both sides during WWII. From Rotterdam to Hiroshima.

Hizbullah and Hamas are "protecting Islam and the people of Palestine". Israel is "protecting the Jewish State and the people of Israel".

The Nazis were "protecting the Reich and der Volk" from the evil Jewish Bolsheviks and/or the evil Jewish capitalists. BushCo is "protecting America from 'terrorists'".

Nobody is protecting the civilians.

[k_jerome]

73. taking out missle batteries and Hezbollah infrastructure is...

completely justified. Comparison of Israel to nazi germany is the new face of intolerance for jews, simple as that.

Were the partisans you speak of strapping explosives on their bodies and blowing up restaurants in Berlin? Would that make you more sympathetic to their struggle?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

89. They didn't need to. The RAF and the Americans were doing it.

Humbug as to the "intolerance for the Jews" drivel.

If you might recall the Irgun was blowing up hotels and using terrorism in the struggle against the Brits to found Israel.

And, many of the Partisans were Jews in the struggle against the Nazis and they did indulge in assasinations, bombings, and rather indiscriminate killing. And, the Nazis retaliated in much the same way that IDF is using now, by targeting civilians and infrastructure.

"Hezbullah infrastructure"? Like the Beirut airport, power and water mains, highways and bridges? Complete with "unavoidable" civilian deaths.

[ladjf]

20. They have hemmed the "fish" up in a barrel. They are preparing

"killing fields" not "battle fields". It can't be battle fields because their is no one on the other side to give battle. 2,500 Hezbollah, armed with rifles and small explosive are no match. There will be no battle. Just unilateral destruction.

[Pharaoh]

23. Well my fear is

They hit Damascus Thus pulling Iran into the fray, then things could really get ugly........

[ladjf]

37. I believe that Israel and the Hezbollah would like that. In that

sense they are working together. How else could one explain the stupid and futile attack on the Israeli tank by Hezbollah? Would they risk the entire country being blown up just to kill a few Israelis, knowing full well that they had zero military potential. Yes, they wanted Syria to join and Iran too, if possible. Hezbollah is desperate. Slim chances for success were better than none. Further, the Hez might believe that there are certain allies out there that may or may not actually exist. Or, maybe they know something strategic that we don't.

Israel figures they are in a no lose situation. They know that they can unilaterally deal with Palestine, Lebanon and Syria. Iran is a bit of another matter. For that, they would assume that the U.S. would gladly cover their back, which is probably true. Bush would be pleased to have Israel finish of Iran, saving us the trouble.

One thing that keeps coming up in my mind is that this particular campaign by Israel seems to be the meanest and least provoked of any of the war operations. I believe that they are creating a massive ground swell of hatred among all Arabic and Muslim people that far exceed anything heretofore. There are millions of Muslims now whose most fervent dream is to annihilate Israel. That's no news flash to Israel. But, weaponry and the people who have it is changing exponentially. Israel could easily find itself in a situation where 3,200 tanks, 355 airplanes and 300,000 troops are as worthless as piles of trash in a garbage dump. They know that. But, what they don't realize is that their current strategy is jeopardizing their existence in the same way that the U.S. occupation of Iraq is hurting us.

Ironically, Valerie Plame was working in the very area that is most vital to Israel and the U.S., namely in the International trade of WMD. Her being outed set back that initiative by years. Thank you mr cheney and Mr. Rove. Such patriots!

[hack89]

62. I am not so sure about the massive ground swell from the Arab countries.

I am sure there are many Sunni arab governments that would love to see Shia Iran's proxy in Lebanon get crushed - while governments like Saudi Arabia don't like Israel, they also realize that it is Iran that poses the greatest threat to them. They have no problem with letting Israel do their dirty work for them.

[ladjf]

82. Those are some subtle points that I hadn't thought of. You sound

like you really know your ME dynamics. Thanks.

[Redstone]

42. Well, then those 2500 hezbollah shouldn't have been shooting the rockets

into Israel over the last six years, Should they?

Maybe if they'd left the Israelis ALONE, none of this would have happened.

Redstone

[ladjf]

50. I don't try to defend Hezbollah. I think they are a group of

desperate idiots. Why would they recently risk having Lebanon destroyed just to knock out on Israeli tank and it's crew? Answer:To draw Syria and Iran into the battle. Bad idea but I think it was their strategy.

There have been numerous blood shedding events on both sides during the past few years, so many that it's rather difficult to decide who did what first. But, more recently, the Israelis did kill several family members who were on a beach in Gaza for reasons unknown. Some say the the kidnapping of the Israeli soldier by Hamas operatives was a reprisal for the beach incident. This is another case of who killed who first.

In any event, it seems that Israel has gone far beyond any counter punch by the things done in the past few days. It has the appearance that the kidnappings were a pretext for something they had already planned. That, of course, is conjecture on my part. I think Israel somehow got sucked in on this, else they figure they can go ahead and finish off Hamas and Hezbollah in on violent campaign.
Palestine and Lebanon have been decimated. But, Hamas and Hezbollah will survive because they represent a strong movement. If every single Hamas and Hezbollah could be executed today, in six months they would back. It's the same as the insurgency in Iraq. Those movements are larger than the physical membership roles.

[Redstone]

53. I think you're right, it could have been their strategy. Which is about as

good a "strategy" as is ours in Iraq.

But I suppose there are fucking idiots everywhere, in Lebanon as well as in Washington.

Tell me, please, how on Earth do we rid ourselves of those idiots? Or at least minimize their ability to cause the suffering of innocents? God, I wish I knew.

I bet you wish you knew as well. Thanks for a thoughtful post.

Redstone

[Selatius]

63. I don't think there is a real solution

You cannot destroy an idea, and Hezbollah is driven by an idea as much as it is by its members. What that idea is is irrelevant to the fact that once an idea is spread, it is hard to contain and destroy. Al Qaeda is now little more than an idea. Any person could take his initiative and commit a violent act and now cite Al Qaeda's guiding principles as reason to do so even though he may or may not even be involved with Al Qaeda at all. If you removed Hezbollah's sanctuary in south Lebanon, they will simply move somewhere else, and if you decapitate Hezbollah's leadership, there will still be people attacking Israel claiming to do so for the sake of Hezbollah. It would not be too different from fighting a leaderless insurgency in Iraq.

[Redstone]

68. Well said. But if that "idea" occupies a specific territory, and launches

missiles into another territory without provocation, what then?

I really want to hear your thoughts on this. How do we deal with "ideas" that exist only with the aim of destruction?

Your post was dead-on the reality of the situation, but I read it as saying that there is NO answer to this endless cycle of destruction (which I, myself, fear is indeed the case).

Tell me what you think, please.

Redstone

[Selatius]

69. The only parallel I could come up with is the KKK

Perhaps if the events of history are made to move against Hezbollah's wishes, then eventually many of its members will leave of their own accord the same way many members of the KKK left after being defeated over segregation in the 1960s.

The long-term solution is empowering the Lebanese people to do it. After all, most seats in Lebanon's parliament do not belong to Hezbollah. Perhaps the peaceful kind of powerful international pressure that eventually forced Syria to abandon Lebanon during the Lebanese Cedar Revolution elections is the kind of pressure needed to convince Hezbollah to disarm. Even then, Hezbollah would simply be rendered as a Lebanese equivalent of the KKK or the Neo-Nazis, largely disarmed but still militantly intolerant and violent. We haven't really succeeded in defeating them by eliminating them, and we probably never will, but we did disempower them.

To be frank, I find people blaming Lebanon for Hezbollah to be a bit shallow and uninformed about Lebanon's situation.

Lebanon was barely done rebuilding itself after the last civil war. It's still a very fragile country; the fledgling Lebanese army could've easily been defeated if it tried to defeat Hezbollah on its own, or it would've set off a string of events that would lead to Lebanon entering a second civil war this time between pro- and anti-Hezbollah militias. In the 1980s people saw what shattered office towers and pock-marked apartment buildings looked like in Beirut. They didn't want to risk seeing it again less than 20 years later because one militia didn't abide by the agreements.

They needed outside help when it became clear Nasrallah was unwilling to disarm Hezbollah when all other militias agreed to do so, but at the time nobody in the outside world cared. The rest of the world was too busy with the fallout from 9/11 and Bush's wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the Second Intifadah in the West Bank/Gaza Strip.

Because the problem was ignored until now, a lot more is at stake than a blood feud between Hezbollah and Israel. It could mean Lebanon falling back into civil war again, and the people will be forced to see Beirut turned into a pile or rubble anyway regardless if they were against Hezbollah refusing to disarm.

[mmonk]

75. The only solution I see is to make them and their ideas

universally abhored. Achieving such a feat is the trick. The question is how. While hitting them hard is good, one has to be careful not to feed their popularity. That's the dilema with disproportionate force which carries high civilian casualties. It's so hard to figure out what to do to end the madness they feed from.

[ladjf]

81. At this point a majority of American voters realize what is going

on. Yet, a minority has control of all the power buttons, i.e. WH, Congress, Supreme Court, media, big business and the military. So they could stay in power even if their percentage approval dropped to under 20%.

You asked how we might kick the thugs out:

The first thing has already happened when the majority became fully aware of the criminality of our gvt.

Second: The voting process needs to be legitimized so that the votes are ALL counted correctly. This could be done but not in time for the November election. Voting reforms could be legislated by getting support from all Democrats and some Republicans. The e-voting could be made honest if that was the statutory requirement.

Third: The Dems could then take over at least one house of Congress.

Fourth: Break up the media monopolies.

4.5: Disengage from the Iraq debacle. Give Iraq back to the Iraqis.

4.75 Stop subsidizing Israel's military. If they want to be bullies, let them do it on their dime.

4.80 Kick Bolton out and put a real American with brains in as UN ambassador. (How about K. Heuvel? or Jimmy Carter)

4.90 Nominate one of our strong candidates in 2008. (Gore, Clark, Edwards) (No Iraq war supporters)

4.95 Stop illegal immigration by disallowing their work opportunities in the U.S.

4.97 Start taking environmental issues seriously.

4.98 Give strong support to renewable energy research, i.e. wind, solar, geo-thermal and tidal.

4.99 Explore the possibilities of charging Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfield, Pearl and Wolfowitz with treason. The arrest and conviction of those people would be one of the strongest pieces of evidence that Democracy in the U.S. is very much alive and well.

Fifth: Either abolish the CIA or dramatically overhaul it. I'm for abolishing it. They have served no constructive purpose for America while acting full time as the clandestine army for big business.
They have no record of uncovering information for our security.

Sixth:Homeland Security- abolish

Seventh:Patriot act - throw it out along with all spying on American citizens.

Eighth: Recognize that solving the spread of terrorism is not a matter of war, or even military but, rather, analyzing the motives of the terrorist to the degree that their anger can be reduced to a manageable level.

Nine: Re-reinstate the estate tax

Ten: Increase the tax rate for the very wealthy, not only for revenue reasons but to close the gap between the rich and poor.

Eleven:Increase minimum wage

Twelve:Increase loan benefits for college students.

Thirteen:Restore public education to the level it was thirty years ago. Stop subsidizing private education.

Fourteenth:Put real restrictions of religious organizations participation in partisan politics by taxing them if the do try to influence votes.

Fifteenth:Legislate reasonable and fair gay marriage laws.

[eyl]

93. In a way

Ever since Israel withdrew from Lebanon in 2000, it has been watching with growing concern as Hizbullah as taken complete control of southern Lebanon, and built up its armaments with more and better rockets. Not to mention their occasional attacks, as well as their repeated attempts at kidnapping Israeli soldiers (one of which succeeded in late 2000).

Depsite the criticism I've seen here for Israel not trying diplomatic responses first, in fact it has been trying to use diplomacy, for the past six years, to get Lebanon to take control of the south, primarily through the UN. All such attempts have proven futile, and the UN's conduct in the 2000 kidnapping of Israeli soldiers have shown it to be ineffective at best.

So to some extent, the kidnapping is a pretext. It gives Israel to excuse to use force to try clean out Hizbullah and its facilities, both from southern Lebanon and from Beirut, on the one hand, and on the other hand, forcibly pressure Lebanon's government to send Lebenese Army units to take control of the south. There are signs that the latter pressure, at least, is working.

[Igel]

34. It's a reasonable bit of writing.

"Hezbollah's strategy has been imposed on it. It seems committed to standing and fighting."
This is precisely what Israel's said its goal was; forcing Hezbollah to fight, not go to ground, with its resources at hand and not with the full industrial might of Iran and Syria behind it. With due allowance for inevitable errors--why assume that Israelis are supermen?--what Israel said it would do is what it has done.

But bombing Syria, intentionally or not, would not be a casus belli as far as Israel is concerned; it would play very badly in Syria and the Arab world, and might force Syria into a war I don't think Assad wants. So I agree that Syria doesn't want a war; I see no evidence that Israel wants a war with Syria. It's stated its goals, quite clearly; why nobody can take Middle Easterners at face value, when speaking to their own people, I'll never understand.

It's fairly clear, IMHO, what Israel wants to have happen: It wants Hezbollah castrated, as stated. It wants Lebanon to apply with Res. 1559, as Israel's UN ambassador stated, which is to say, stop the bombing of N. Israel and Hezbollah provocations in that area, and disarm Hezbollah, with Lebanon establishing control in the area.

This is precisely what Israel's said it wants in Gaza, as well. Big surprise.

[bridgit]

54. true, you'd think Hezbollah would be mindful of the addage...

"be careful what you ask for"

[bemildred]

60. This seems like speculation to me.

It seems to be a bit of a misuse of the term "preparing the battlefield" too. One presumes that all of Lebanon is not "the battlefield", and hence that what is going is more like strategic bombing or the like. Preparing the battlefield would refer to the areas where it was expected that fighting would occur, with the object of reducing enemy forces and preparations prior to attack. This is not really what is being speculated about here.

[daleo]

74. The article implies the U.S. government only plans to save white Americans

"There are said to be 25,000 U.S. citizens in Lebanon, but many of these are Lebanese-American dual nationals who actually live in Lebanon as Lebanese. These are less visible, less at risk and have greater resources for survival. The most at-risk Americans are those who hold only U.S. papers and are clearly American, such as employees of American companies, students studying at Lebanese universities and tourists. There is no clear count of these high-risk nationals, nor is there a count on high-risk nationals from other non-Islamic countries. There are thousands, however, and getting them out will be difficult."

[barb162]

90. where do you see "white" in that paragraph?

I see the words employees, students, etc