"The P Word is Palestine"! anti-Zionism is not equivalent to anti-Semitism

[leftchick]

Thank you Stan Goff.....


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stan-goff/the-pword_b_25144.html

<snip>

And the discussion of Zionism for what it is -- exactly as we are witnessing right now -- a secular, racist political movement, characterized by expansionism and militarism , is going to have to happen online, because neither the mainstream press nor mainstream politicians will touch it with a ten-foot pole... even when it is piling up more bodies as it leads the world into a regional disaster.


Let's just get something out of the way right up front, before I go any further. Zionism is not Judaism; being Jewish does not make anyone Zionist; and anti-Zionism is not equivalent to anti-Semitism.

It is now well past time for the United States to withdraw all rogue state, Israel; though that is unlikely to happen without a movement to make it happen, because the US is now effectively the biggest and most dangerous rogue state on the planet.

Democrats won't touch this issue for the same reason they avoid that other P-Word, Prison. They are as complict in the incarceration of 2 million people here -- mostly of color -- as they are in the continuing support of the terror state of Israel.

So let's just talk briefly about what Zionism actually is, and get away from the mythology promoted by AIPAC.

[chimpymustgo]

1. THANK YOU for posting this. This should get pinned at the top of the page

Please people...read this.

[Name removed]

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[rinsd]

2. Zionist = Islamofascist

They're bullshit code words used to demonize a larger subset while appearing to have sophistication.

Oh no I'm not talking about the Jews but the Zionists.

Oh no I'm not talking about the Arabs but the Islamofascists.

Oh no I'm not talking about the Mexicans but the illegal immigrants.

[shance]

17. Good comparison - I hadn't thought of it that way actually.

n/t

[Mass]

22. I totally agree,

[DemocraticLeft]

58. You agree? Well BIG surprise .nt

[Name removed]

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[malaise]

3. Brilliant

recommended. My great grandfather was Jewish not Zionist. Big, big difference.

[chimpymustgo]

4. Below: "The Media's ME Rules of Engagement" -if you haven't figured it out

Also from the article...

****
Robin C. Miller's book "The Media's Middle East Rules of Engagement" is a good primer on how this works, listing ten "rules" that are scrupulously followed and giving examples of each.

Rule 1: See the Middle East through Israeli eyes.
Rule 2: Treat American and Israeli governmental statements as hard news.
Rule 3: Ignore the historical context.
Rule 4: Avoid the fundamental legal and moral issues posed by the Israeli occupation.
Rule 5: Suppress or minimize news unfavorable to the Israelis.
Rule 6: Muddy the waters when necessary.
Rule 7: Credit all Israeli claims, even if wholly unfounded.
Rule 8: Doubt all Palestinian assertions, no matter how self-evident.
Rule 9: Condemn only Palestinian violence.
Rule 10: Disparage the international consensus supporting Palestinian rights.

There is an eleventh rule that hovers over all the other rules. Equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. This shuts everyone up. That's why it is so critically important that this Eleventh Rule be challenged loudly and clearly and frequently. Anti-Zionism is NOT anti-Semitism. Zionism is not Judaism. Not all Jews are Zionists, and not all Zionists are Jews. The point is that Zionism raises many questions about what constitutes Jewishness. Israeli Jews are largely secular, so it cannot be called a strictly religious category. Race is not even a scientifically operational term. The Jewish communities around the world are distinctly developed from one another. If Zionism is to define Jewishness for itself, it can only do so - loosely - as the Diaspora, the political utility of which, for example with the African Diaspora, is one where that 'scattered' status still results in a common historically conditioned oppression. For Israeli Jews, the contrary is true. They have become not an oppressed nationality, but an oppressing European settler state.

[malaise]

5. I sent this to my

sibblings and a few friends. Time for the world to wake up.

[leftchick]

6. yes! The US has been played!

over and over again with the help of the corporate owned media and Hill's new friend Ruppert!

[Jacobin]

19. Actually, I think "purchased" might be a better description

but, yes, the public has been played.

Congresscritters know where their bread is buttered.

[leftchick]

21. well I did have the american public in mind

God knows there is a LOT of money being made here.

[Name removed]

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[DemocraticLeft]

57. NO THERES NO DIFFERENCE.

And I bet he was Zionist.As 9 outa 10 Jews are..there AINT NO DIFFERENCE !!!!

[Spazito]

7. Wow, very interesting read, the history of zionism in the piece has

a very important place in the whole debate on the crisis. Thank you for posting this. The listed rules re the media are so right on point and rule #11 is practiced very freely here and elsewhere.

[leftchick]

8. dang!

more recs than responses? That has never happened before! :shrug:

[burythehatchet]

9. thanks lefty

Once again, the netroots are going to have to shoulder the responsibility of bringing this debate into the light. Whether now or later, nothing will change until the media filter can be destroyed and orgs like AIPAC can be disemboweled. I thought that after the spy scandal and indictments against AIPAC officials there might finally be an honest discussion about this issue, but none was forthcoming. Allowing this to come out of the I/P basement has been a wonderful development.

[Jacobin]

10. Interesting

Recommended.

Waiting for a non-emotional response to the points he raises.

[leftchick]

11. non -emotional?

lol! At DU? lol!

[Jacobin]

18. I know I know

but, occasionally, there is rational discourse. Usually, everyone has to blow off steam and get their prejudices exposed first, and that takes time.

[bemildred]

12. I would say Goff is rather pissed off. nt

[leftchick]

14. as am I!

I need to have my blood pressure checked. :(

[bemildred]

16. Well, I haven't got much done this week.

Watching this evil bullshit unfold.

[Clark2008]

13. Thank God (Yahweh) SOMEBODY gets this!

My husband is Jewish. He is anti-Zionist, not anti-Semitic (and so am I).

[Jacobin]

20. As is my gf

And she equates the Likud to the Bush Fundy supporters and cannot abide them.

[Name removed]

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[TomClash]

81. This post violates DU rules for this forum nt

[mom cat]

15. Thanks. Bookmarked and reccommended.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. Equating Zionism with Judaism is like equating democracy with Christianity

[Lurking Dem]

24. Bullshit.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1656527&mesg_id=1662651

[leftchick]

25. that is your opinion

I am sticking with Stan's. Thanks anyway.

[chimpymustgo]

27. Why was this brilliant analysis moved to the basement?

When so many other mindless and inflammatory threads stay in GD? This an article that speads light rather than heat.

Dayum.

[leftchick]

28. you answered your own question

no lights allowed apparently.

[barb162]

35. The last thing the piece is is brilliant. It spreads bias and lies

[DemocraticLeft]

62. YES BIG FUCKING BULLSHIT INDEEED !!!! nt

[cali]

26. The US

is a far more muscular "terror" state than israel. Just saying, folks, that perhaps all this outrage about Israel should be turned toward our own government. There's like 10 Israel/evil/terrorist state to one about the US.

Mote meet eye.

[chimpymustgo]

29. Cail, did you read the article? Your thoughts?

I didn't see anything to argue with...

[cali]

179. I sure did.

I laid it out in post #85. And I'd be interested in your response to that post. I noticed that no one's touched it.

[bloom]

30. More from Vladimir Jabotinsky

"In 1929, Jabotinsky left Palestine to attend the Sixteenth Zionist Congress. The British authorities did not allow him to return due to Arab pressure."

"One of his greatest disciples was Menachem Begin, past leader of the Irgun and Betar faction and future prime minister of Israel."

"Jabotinsky is also viewed by all Jews as being a symbol and founding father of Zionism."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Jabotinsky

The Iron Wall

(We and the Arabs)

...Thus we conclude that we cannot promise anything to the Arabs of the Land of Israel or the Arab countries. Their voluntary agreement is out of the question. Hence those who hold that an agreement with the natives is an essential condition for Zionism can now say “no” and depart from Zionism. Zionist colonization, even the most restricted, must either be terminated or carried out in defiance of the will of the native population. This colonization can, therefore, continue and develop only under the protection of a force independent of the local population – an iron wall which the native population cannot break through. This is, in toto, our policy towards the Arabs. To formulate it any other way would only be hypocrisy.

Not only must this be so, it is so whether we admit it or not. What does the Balfour Declaration and the Mandate mean for us? It is the fact that a disinterested power committed itself to create such security conditions that the local population would be deterred from interfering with our efforts.

All of us, without exception, are constantly demanding that this power strictly fulfill its obligations. In this sense, there are no meaningful differences between our “militarists” and our “vegetarians.” One prefers an iron wall of Jewish bayonets, the other proposes an iron wall of British bayonets, the third proposes an agreement with Baghdad, and appears to be satisfied with Baghdad’s bayonets – a strange and somewhat risky taste’ but we all applaud, day and night, the iron wall. We would destroy our cause if we proclaimed the necessity of an agreement, and fill the minds of the Mandatory with the belief that we do not need an iron wall, but rather endless talks. Such a proclamation can only harm us. Therefore it is our sacred duty to expose such talk and prove that it is a snare and a delusion.

Two brief remarks: In the first place, if anyone objects that this point of view is immoral, I answer: It is not true; either Zionism is moral and just or it is immoral and unjust. But that is a question that we should have settled before we became Zionists. Actually we have settled that question, and in the affirmative.

We hold that Zionism is moral and just. And since it is moral and just, justice must be done, no matter whether Joseph or Simon or Ivan or Achmet agree with it or not.

There is no other morality.

http://www.marxists.de/middleast/ironwall/ironwall.htm

[DELUSIONAL]

31. Interesting back story to the current Israel-Lebanon conflict

worth reading and considering --

It's fascinating to read this linked article and then the comments of the current flood of new posters to DU.

[Name removed]

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[barb162]

32. This is a total piece of shit! Absolute unbelievable garbage

especially the crap about "zionists" actively collaborating with the nazis, as if Jews in Germany at the time knew what Hitler was up to in 1933.

[jonnyblitz]

34. the source for that nazi thing is "jews against zionism" interesting.

:shrug:

[jonnyblitz]

38. wow. Hannah Arendt is a source for the zionist/nazi collaboration

story. She is/was no slouch. this is going to be interesting reading. :wow:

[Finder]

87. That was the Stern Gang(Lehis) n/t

[MrPrax]

94. Sure they did...

This strategy of enlisting Europe’s virulent Jew-haters, and of aligning with the most vicious movements and regimes as financial and military patrons of a Zionist colony in Palestine, did not exclude the Nazis.

The Zionist Federation of Germany sent a memorandum of support to the Nazi Party on June 21, 1933. In it the Federation noted:

... a rebirth of national life such as is occurring in German life ... must also take place in the Jewish national group.

On the foundation of the new state which has established the principle of race, we wish so to fit our community into the total structure so that for us, too, in the sphere assigned to us, fruitful activity for the Fatherland is possible ...

Far from repudiating this policy, the World Zionist Organization Congress in 1933 defeated a resolution calling for action against Hitler by a vote of 240 to 43.

During this very Congress, Hitler announced a trade agreement with the WZO’s Anglo-Palestine Bank, breaking, thereby, the Jewish boycott of the Nazi regime at a time when the German economy was extremely vulnerable. It was the height of the Depression and people were wheeling barrels full of worthless German Marks. The World Zionist Organization broke the Jewish boycott and became the principal distributor of Nazi goods throughout the Middle East and Northern Europe. They established the Ha’avara, which was a bank in Palestine designed to receive monies from the German-Jewish bourgeoisie, with which sums Nazi goods were purchased in very substantial quantity.

<snip>

There was a common ground between the Nazis and the Zionists, expressed not merely in the proposal of Shamir’s National Military Organization to form a state in Palestine on a "national totalitarian basis." Vladimir Jabotinsky, in his last work, The Jewish War Front, (l940) wrote of his plans for the Palestinian people:

Since we have this great moral authority for calmly envisaging the exodus of Arabs, we need not regard the possible departure of 900,000 with dismay. Herr Hitler has recently been enhancing the popularity of population transfer.

Hidden History

The boycott he mentions actually began as a worldwide movement by the left, mostly socialist parties and trade unions, and was actually successful and a bother to the Nazis. But because it was seen as some 'commie' thing, it was mostly rejected by (come on down) American Jewish Congress who only made prefunctory support of it and then withdrew it's support.

You have to remember that the Nazis were actually admired in many quarters because much of what the Nazis did (like suppress and outlaw trade unions, disband socialists organizations, locking up dissidents, outlawing political parties, etc) was actually considered a good solution to the 'Great Depression'. Nazis anti-semitism was quite common in many ruling class circles (come on down Henry Ford and Charles Lindburgh) and it was based on the ubiqutious 19th century belief that much of the industrial and social unrest was being done by 'jews'. The rationale being that no real worker would follow such 'foreign' ideas and it was simply the 'christ killers' stirring up trouble. That is largely why the danger of the Nazis was routinely ignored -- their methods were admired and under the Nazis the German economy seemed to be doing well. Far from hating the Nazis in the 30s, many believed they were on the right track.

If you recall there was full audience at the 1936 Olympics...there was a boycott proposed, but it was uniformly rejected by the world's leaders who were more than happy to meet and greet the Nazi regime.

So even as far as Zionist jews -- they were no more enlightened than the anti-semites...they were wealthy and they also believed it was 'bad' jews who had simply lost their way. Jewish history, especially in the US, is always presented as some monolithic experience of 'victimhood' when there is, like any group of people over time, a class dimension and a context.

To Zionists, any justification will work.

From the Lehi/Stern wikipedia:
In 1940 and 1941, Lehi proposed intervening in the Second World War on the side of Nazi Germany to attain their help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine and to offer their assistance in "evacuating" the Jews of Europe arguing that "common interests could exist between the establishment of a new order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO (Lehi)." Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig and delivered a letter from Lehi offering to "actively take part in the war on National Socialist Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state" <1>. Von Hentig forwarded the letter to the German embassy in Ankara, but there is no record of any official response.
Wikipedia

Interesting footnote to this episode -- for the longest time, even mentioning this, was considered no better than a 'Holocaust Denial' -- it was a monstrous lie tantamount to the Protocols.

But it turned out to be true when documents of the meeting turned up in an archive in Israel by a academic who wasn't even looking for it...it was a bombshell in Israel politics, but largely unmentioned elsewhere and so people are still brainwashed in believing that it's simply anti-semiticism.

That's why this post is very good at reminding people that NOT ALL JEWISH PEOPLE are either Zionists or even support Israel in it's present form.

You have to really ask yourself about Zionists and their rap inasmuch as when it comes to the Jewish people, no where, but in America and few others, have Jewish people been the safest, more successful than at anytime in their history -- but there are a whole bunch of Zionists who still insist that Jewish people are 'better off' in a shitty little desert under a constant state of war that hasn't done a damn fucking thing to promote the arts, culture or influence in the world to the scale of what the Jew has accomplished in America.

I can understand the incentive if your in Riga or Ethiopia, then you might actually improve your lot, but if your sitting pretty in the US -- why would you even consider 'moving to Israel' unless you are some sorta screwball utopian fanatic and why precisely are there some many Christians that are more than happy to send Jews there?

It's that part I have never gotten as to why the Zionists are so willing to hook up with classic ideologically inspired anti-semites like some fundamentalist Christians...until I discovered that these people had NO problem dealing with Nazis.

[cool user name]

332. There has been documentation ...

That Chaim Weismann among others dealt with the Nazis and even sent 800,000 Hungarian Jews to extermination to build more consensus for a Jewish state in Palestine.

I'll have to find the link and I'll provide it on forum.

[umtalal]

33. found this book: Zionism in the Age of the Dictators.

http://www.vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres/LBzad.pdf

You can read it for free on the above link. Otherwise, you will need to pay a $100 from Amazon

[jonnyblitz]

36. thanks for posting this. i always like to hear what stan goff has

to say. I have my reading (with hyperlinks) for tonight now. :hi:

[barb162]

37. What is this the education background of this big expert on zionism

He was a master sergeant? Is that it? I have never seen history professors come up with disgusting garbage like this. But this master sergeant with no education background shown in the "bio" is discussing zionism/ anti-semitism? This is an embarrassment to a progressive board. This is reading like KKK propaganda
edit; spelling

[jonnyblitz]

39. you need to look at his sources.

they are all jewish. click on the hyperlinks in stan goffs article. one is a reknowned jewish philosopher, Hannah Arendt.

you obviously haven't read it if you accuse it of being KKK propaganda. you are just emotionally spouting off.

[barb162]

40. What's his academic qualification (s) to write about

such a complicated subject as zionism/ anti-semitism. None, nada , zero as far as I can tell. Don't tell me I am spouting off. Now if he wants to write about the military, fine and dandy; he was in it. But I'd say this guy is far, far out of his element in writing on this subject. Would you applaud what he would write about organic chemistry too?

[jonnyblitz]

41. it doesnt matter what HIS qualifications are...you need to verify

his SOURCES. he basically tied a bunch of stuff together. I havent read it all yet I just happened to see some names that I am familiar with as i scanned it all.

all i basically know about stan goff is he is ex -CIA and active in the Veterans for Peace movement. I have read his stuff before. to be honest he would be considered pretty radical left by the mainstream.

just click on his hyperlinks. I am going to read through it all.

[barb162]

43. Because he is progressive , left, etc., doesn't make an

academically untrained and uneducated person an expert in a complicated historical subject. I would read his comments all day long on warfare, the military, Bush and how he is screwing up militarily in Iraq, etc., because this man was in the military a long time and knows the in and outs of the games, procedures, etc of the military establishment. But just as you wouldn't go to a person with no medical qualifications for medical treatment just because he/she is liberal, I would think one would very seriously question this article because the man has literally absolutely no academic training. I checked Wikipedia ( "Goff narrowly graduated high school in St. Charles in 1969") and other sources for any college training and I can't find one year of college, let alone history courses. It indicates he barely got out of high school. SO he writes about a subject which is a difficult and highly complex one even for real scholars with years of academic training and research behind them. He doesn't know the first thing about historical research and sourcing and I suspect he is slapping things together from sources which would be objectionable to any real scholar at a good or even mediocre university. He 'd be laughed at by any serious academic or research historian.


Nuff said. Peace

[jonnyblitz]

46. but of course you didnt check his sources..you are too busy

trying to figure out ways to besmearch the messenger because what you see at first doesn't appeal to your pre-conceived notion. all STAN GOFF did was give a brief write up with links to more indepth sources. you are like talking to a brick wall, no offense.

[DemFromMem]

42. You want the truth?

Being anti-Israel for many people here is a way to be anti-Semitic without having to seem like a bigot. Criticizing Israel is the post-Holocaust way to hate the Jews and not have to defend your morality. That's why so many Europeans are great at hating Israel. If you can make Israel out to be an immoral country, maybe it will remove the taint on your culture (see how bad those Jews are? Maybe what we did wasn't so awful?)

This is no different, in my opinion, than the Freepers who report on every bad piece of news in the Muslim world in order to paint an ugly picture and then they claim that they don't hate Muslims per se, just the ones who don't like America. That's a load of crap as well.

The invective regularly invoked on this site in any discussions of Israel tell me a lot more about where people are REALLY coming from.

I expect to be attacked for this post (typical) and fierce denials. I might even be censored. But that's the truth as I see it.

[thinkingwoman]

44. Before the attacks start

I want to take a spot right beside you.

Thank you for this intelligent, thoughtful, reasoned response to a boatload of crap. I admire and appreciate it.

[Marie26]

45. Me too.

Thanks for your post.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[TomClash]

78. I agree

But your posts are a main part of the problem. Read them - they contain worn out stereotypes, personal attacks, no reasoned argument. Surely, you can do better than that.

[Name removed]

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[DemocraticLeft]

51. exactly... NT

[Jim Sagle]

65. Ilk THIS.

[DemocraticLeft]

75. Your post there is nothin short of DISGUSTING nt

[DemFromMem]

88. Should I have been censored?

My message pointing out that Johnnyblitz's use of the word "ilk" was a code word for "Jews" was censored by our moderators. I presume I'll be censored again, but you can be the judge. Wouldn't want those Jews getting all uppity.

[IndianaGreen]

63. Israel is not an immoral country, but her war on Lebanon is wrong!

Bombing of hospitals, grain storage facilities, milk production facilities, and water supply infrastructures are war crimes.

Bombing of Lebanese army bases exposes as lies Israel's claims that it wants the Lebanese to disarm Hezbollah. With what army, one is forced to ask?

What Israel is doing in Beirut and in Lebanon is a small-scale version of what the US has done in Irag: the obliteration of the fabric of Lebanese society!

And we still have a few more weeks of this "freedom and democracy" spectacle!

Yes, everyone is upset! Angry words are exchanged. But I remind everyone on this board, that the vitriol and rage will only increase in this country if the neocon/neolib alliance that got us into the Iraq debacle success in getting us into a war against Iran and/or Syria.

We are living through very dangerous times, and we are being led by a very evil and foolish ideological cabal that will be the ruin of us all, Jew and Gentile.

[DemocraticLeft]

64. What do you think about the posts here in this thread?

Think these people are truly Anti Zionist?

What does that mean anyway? .. `Anti Zionist`

[IndianaGreen]

66. Bush uses words like "freedom and democracy" but they don't mean

the same thing to Bush that they mean to me.

If by Zionist one means the right of Jews to live in peace in a land of their own, a Jewish state, then by that definition I am a Zionist.

If by Zionist one means Israeli Exceptionalism, which like its American counterpart, means ignoring human rights and international law and employing military might to expand hegemony and oppress others, then by that definition I am not a Zionist.

I know there are ultra Orthodox that consider themselves anti-Zionists because they say that only the Messiah can establish Israel, but they wouldn't fit my definition of anti-Zionist.

I am reminded of the wise words of scifi author, the late Philip K. Dick who said this about the use of language:

The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words.

[autorank]

72. Superb post...

...and Phillipi K. Dick was right, an eternal truth. I think it could use an update with "and symbols" right after "words."

This is so sad, all of it. I don't think the WH or Olmert have any concept about how thin support is for this. We'll see.

[DemocraticLeft]

73. Yep but this OP is a buncha crap..

Similar to the dozens of UN resolutions calling Zionism racism or the anti semitic hatefest held in Durban....

The OP is may as well be written on a piece of toilet paper...it belongs flushed down the toilet with the rest of the crap.

[bemildred]

86. Props IG, well said. nt

[DemFromMem]

83. If all of the posts criticizing Israel were like yours...

I would not level charges of anti-Semitism. There were no hints of hate in the message and what you have said is no different than what anti-war protestors in Israel might be saying. But most of the posts are full of vitriol that only one conclusion can reasonably be reached.

[Meshuga]

79. I posted in the

Wrong place... so I deleted my post.

[ProgressiveCritic]

91. so are we to sit silently and allow Israel to do whatever they wish?

to prove that we aren't anti-semites?
And to finance it with our tax dollars?

When I say "never again," I mean it.

[Andromeda]

339. Thank you for the intelligent post, DemFromMem.

It's good to read a post from somebody who can succinctly point out the redundantly ugly, mean-spirited, narrow-minded and bizarre posts from some of the uber-left who make comments that make me cringe.

These views are not mainstream and don't express the feelings of most Democrats, IMHO. The Democratic party supports Israel's right to exist and stands with Israel in her struggle to survive and defend herself against Arab countries who sponsor terrorist organizations, namely: Iran and Syria.

It's against the rules to accuse others of being "anti-Semitic" as it is against the rules to make overtly anti-Semitic remarks. The term "anti-Zionist" can be ambiguous and allows an escape from the taint of being blatantly anti-Semitic. The intent of the person can't be proven and due scorn is heaped upon the individual who believes the intent is malicious.

[samhsarah]

348. "If you can make Israel out to be an immoral country"

Israel does a damn good job of that all on it's own. Please with the anti-Isreal is anti-semite crap. You sound like a bumbling....

[Name removed]

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[dipsydoodle]

84. For Anti Zionism to be racist

there would be a pre-requirement for the Jews to be a race. Judaism is a religion - the Jews are not a race.

Just my 2 cents.

[Name removed]

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[IndianaGreen]

68. It is Democratic Party, not Democrat Party and Duke and Kahane

are both racists, and you failed to identify the author of Dear World.

[JackNewtown]

76. "Democrat Party"

How many Democrats call the DP the "Democrat Party"...Isn't that a Sean Hannity created term?

[sabbat hunter]

89. actually

reagan came up with that.

and i have heard people calling in to the randi rhodes show using it and she immediately corrects them.

[DemocraticLeft]

77. Because I never knew who wrote it..but its very well written..

[DemocraticLeft]

61. DEAR WORLD.

Dear World,
> I understand that you are upset by us, here in Israel.
> Indeed, it appears that you are quite upset, even angry. (Outraged?)
> Indeed, every few years you seem to become upset by us. Today, it is the "brutal repression of the Palestinians"; yesterday it was Lebanon; before that it was the bombing of the nuclear reactor in Baghdad and the Yom Kippur War and the Sinai campaign. It appears that Jews who triumph and who, therefore, live, upset you most extraordinarily.
> Of course, dear world, long before there was an Israel, we - the Jewish people - upset you.
> We upset a German people who elected Hitler and upset an Austrian people who cheered his entry into Vienna and we upset a whole slew of Slavic nations - Poles, Slovaks, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Russians, Hungarians and Romanians. And we go back a long, long way in the history of world upset.
> We upset the Cossacks of Chmielnicki who massacred tens of thousands of us in 1648-49; we upset the Crusaders who, on their way to liberate the Holy Land, were so upset at Jews that they slaughtered untold numbers of us.
> For centuries, we upset a Roman Catholic Church that did its best to define our relationship through inquisitions, and we upset the arch-enemy of the church, Martin Luther, who, in his call to burn the synagogues and the Jews within them, showed an admirable Christian ecumenical spirit.
> And it is because we became so upset over upsetting you, dear world, that we decided to leave you - in a manner of speaking - and establish a Jewish state. The reasoning was that living in close contact with you, as resident-strangers in the various countries that comprise you, we upset you, irritate you and disturb you. What better notion, then, than to leave you (and thus love you)- and have you love us and so, we decided to come home - home to the same land we were driven out 1,900 years earlier by a Roman world that, apparently, we also upset.
> Alas, dear world, it appears that you are hard to please.
> Having left you and your pogroms and inquisitions and crusades and holocausts, having taken our leave of the general world to live alone in our own little state, we continue to upset you. You are upset that we repress the poor Palestinians. You are deeply angered over the fact that we do not give up the lands of 1967, which are clearly the obstacle to peace in the Middle East
> Moscow is upset and Washington is upset. The "radical" Arabs are upset and the gentle Egyptian moderates are upset.
> Well, dear world, consider the reaction of a normal Jew from Israel.
> In 1920 and 1921 and 1929, there were no territories of 1967 to impede peace between Jews and Arabs. Indeed, there was no Jewish State to upset anybody Nevertheless, the same oppressed and repressed Palestinians slaughtered tens of Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa, Safed and Hebron.Indeed, 67 Jews were slaughtered one day in Hebron in 1929.
> Dear world, why did the Arabs - the Palestinians - massacre 67 Jews in one day in 1929? Could it have been their anger over Israeli aggression in 1967? And why were 510 Jewish men, women and children slaughtered in Arab riots between 1936-39? Was it because Arabs were upset over 1967?
> And when you, dear world, proposed a UN Partition Plan in 1947 that would have created a "Palestinian State" alongside a tiny Israel and the Arabs cried "no" and went to war and killed 6,000 Jews - was that "upset" caused by the aggression of 1967? And, by the way, dear world, why did we not hear your cry of "upset" then?
> The poor Palestinians who today kill Jews with explosives and firebombs and stones are part of the same people who ­ when they had all the territories they now demand be given to them for their state -attempted to drive the Jewish state into the sea. The same twisted faces, the same hate, the same cry of "itbach-al-yahud" (Massacre the Jew!) that we hear and see today, were seen and heard then. The same people, the same dream - destroy Israel. What they failed to do yesterday, they dream of today, but we should not "repress" them.
> Dear world, you stood by during the holocaust and you stood by in 1948 as seven states launched a war that the Arab League proudly compared to the Mongol massacres.
> You stood by in 1967 as Nasser, wildly cheered by wild mobs in every Arab capital in the world, vowed to drive the Jews into the sea. And you would stand by tomorrow if Israel were facing extinction.
> And since we know that the Arabs-Palestinians dream daily of that extinction, we will do everything possible to remain alive in our own land. If that bothers you, dear world, well ­ think of how many times in the past you bothered us.
>
> In any event, dear world, if you are bothered by us, here is one Jew in Israel who could not care less.
>

[IndianaGreen]

67. A 1988 essay written by the racist Rabbi Meir Kahane

a man considered a terrorist even in Israel.

Thanks to Scurrilous for finding the author!

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

70. and Kahane is a racist, no matter how you spin him

His party outlawed in Israel.

[DemocraticLeft]

71. I agree, i never knew he wrote it...but its damn good nt

[Meshuga]

80. Ridiculous!

First off I want to begin this post by saying that I am a Jew and a proud Zionist (a member of ARZA which is a progressive Zionist party). I know not all Jews are Zionists, I don't think anti-Zionist = anti-Semitism (although it's sometimes used as an anti-Semitic term since to many ignorants out there Zionist = Jew). But I am a Zionist who believes Israel has the right to exist. I never received the memo from Zionist groups about genocide against Palestinians, the need to protect the "pure" Jewish "race", promoting hate against Arabs, etc. We are fighting for Israel's right to exist.

We are not taught to hate Palestinias, we want Palestinians to have their own state, we want them to prosper, and most important: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE JEWISH RACE TO PROTECT!!!

Tell this asshole who wrote this article to go to Israel and he will see how Jews come in all shapes, sizes, and colors. There are Ethiopian Jews who are zionists, there are European Jews are Zionist, Asian Jews who are Zionists, etc. Jews are not a race and the Zionists have no need to protect a race. This author uses this as his attempt to make a ridiculous comparison of Israel with apertheid in South Africa. It is amazing to me that people easily buy this bullshit.

Worse of all is the author attempts to compare and link Zionists to Nazis or Israel to Nazi Germany. His ignorance and generalizations offends me as a Zionist, Jew, my intelligence and is a monstrous injustice to the millions of victims of Nazi tyranny.

People are correct "in principle" to challenge Israel's ethics and attitudes toward Palestinians. But to utter or even suggest Nazi in the same sentence is plain wrong.

Nazis hated Jews for no reason except to stay in power. Jews did nothing to the Germans. Yet the Nazis hunted down and slaughtered 6 million Jews (among them 1.5 million children).

Nobody can comprehend these numbers and the magnitude of Nazi atrocities. So let's talk about just one Nazi atrocity. I heard a story from a Holocaust survivor who told that when she was 9, she, her mother and the other women in her camp were marched outside one freezing winter night. They were forced to stand in the nude all night, because 3 inmates had escaped. By morning, the escapees had not been found, so as a further punishment, the Nazis grabbed one woman out of the line and raped her in front of the others with a broom.

The mother of the 9 year old covered the child's eyes to protect her from the sight. The guards then grabbed her mother and beat her so severely, she lost all her teeth. Her mother died within the year of starvation.

None of this can be compared to Israeli treatment of Palestinians. First, unlike the Jews of Europe, Palestinian leadership has essentially declared war on Israel!

They rejected peaceful negotiations and an Israeli offer of: virtually all the territories, dismantling most of the settlements and even a capital in Jerusalem. Their counteroffer: unleashing suicide bombers in pizzerias, busses and malls (purposefully targeting children, families, Bar Mitzvah celebrations etc.).

In an attempt to protect her citizens, Israel has closed down free movement of the Palestinians. The roadblocks and constant security checks are stifling, humiliating and terrible for the Palestinians. Nazi-like? Hardly!

Do Israelis have disdain, contempt and hatred of Palestinians? Toward Palestinian leadership, the answer is probably yes. And after so many suicide bombings, after the smuggled arms on the ship from Iran, after their leadership's endless lies and negotiating in bad faith, could anyone blame Israelis? Towards Palestinian people, fear and mistrust probably more accurately describes Israeli sentiments.

[DemFromMem]

82. Thank you for this post

My wife and I lost major portions of our families to the Nazis and the comparisons of Israelis to the Nazis can only be designed to inflict pain on the families of the survivors.

[pelsar]

90. one comment.....

I wouldnt say we israelis have disdane, contempt or even hatred for the palestenain...mistrust yes! (as they mistrust us). For their leadership, well for that i would add contempt, for their lack of will or ability to create a society that has a bit more substance than teaching and inciting hatred for jews and israelis (and yes palestenains use the word jews when describing israelis)

[ProgressiveCritic]

92. Pelsar, if every aspect of your life were controlled by an occupier:

from where you traveled, to if you went to school, to where you pray, to if you could work, to if you could feed your family, to if you had access to a hospital, to whether you had food... if you had to go through daily checkpoints... if you faced years-long 8 p.m. curfews (as was the case in Gaza)... if you had land expropriated... if you were thrown in jail for months on end with no charge and no legal counsel... if you had family members shot and killed... neighbors with homes destroyed...

If every aspect of your life was controlled by a foreign occupier, I'd bet you would hate them too.

Don't you think it's kind of insane to expect the VICTIMS of a murderous, multi-decade occupation -- that has impacted EVERY SINGLE FAMILY IN PALESTINE -- to have anything but deep hatred for their occupiers?

Or do you believe the "benign occupation" propaganda crap that your country is so good at churning out?

Is "loving Israel" going to be a future condition for "peace?"

[pelsar]

93. do they hate us?..

many do...and its a very natural thing to do, very human....but you obviously dont know many Palestinians because so many dont have a "deep hatred"..(for reasons that aren't clear to me, you seem to be making it up...perhaps you can explain why.......i'm always so curious about that). Many Palestininas still work with israelis, on many projects and are waiting for the day when they they will be free to work with many more as they did pre intifada I (not its very few....)

What there is no excuse for is the teaching of hate, the celebration of killing people, thats a choice the Palestinian society has made, and a poor choice at that, for hate that is taught is very difficult to control. The most obvious example is gaza...when israel left, it was an incredible opportunity for the Palestinians to do something positive with their society, start making something...unfortunatly they did the exact opposite.

The difference between hating via experience and hating via education is that a bad experience can be offset by a good one.....when your taught to hate, thats far more difficult to remove.....and thats part of the core of the problem.

[ProgressiveCritic]

95. The images in this link sum up your hypocritical POV perfectly:

http://electronicintifada.net/new.shtml

That all Palestinians don't hate the guts of all Israelis is a testament ot their humanity. The level of dignity and warmth of those in Palestine is nothing short of amazing, considering the systematic denial of their human rights.

Israelis are genius at distractions such as "the PLO covenant," "the Hamas charter," "Palestinian textbooks,"... which deflect attention from the carnage Israel has wreaked on the ground in Palestine.

Those Palestinians who do hate learn their lessons all too well at the hands of their Israeli teachers.

That you blame the situation on Gaza on the Palestinians is laughable. It's too bad Israel didn't give Hamas a chance to govern. Nothing moderates a radical like responsibility. Hamas could have come to the table and brought the Palestinian people with them, to hammer out a real agreement on behalf of the people, (unlike what the PLO did.).

At the end of the day, the situation will be as Haniyeh described in his Washington Post editorial:

We present this clear message: If Israel will not allow Palestinians to live in peace, dignity and national integrity, Israelis themselves will not be able to enjoy those same rights. Meanwhile, our right to defend ourselves from occupying soldiers and aggression is a matter of law, as settled in the Fourth Geneva Convention. If Israel is prepared to negotiate seriously and fairly, and resolve the core 1948 issues, rather than the secondary ones from 1967, a fair and permanent peace is possible. Based on a hudna (comprehensive cessation of hostilities for an agreed time), the Holy Land still has an opportunity to be a peaceful and stable economic powerhouse for all the Semitic people of the region.

[pelsar]

96. perhaps you can answer....

that you blame the situation on Gaza on the Palestinians is laughable. It's too bad Israel didn't give Hamas a chance to govern. Nothing moderates a radical like responsibility. Hamas could have come to the table and brought the Palestinian people with them, to hammer out a real agreement on behalf of the people, (unlike what the PLO did.).

after how many kassams was israel supposed to take? 5, 10? 1,000? before responding ...or was israel not supposed to respond at all?

perhaps a time line would help?.

israel left gaza...the very next day and almost every day after kassams were shot over the border to kill israelis....israeli responses gradually got stronger and stronger.....but why were they shooting in the first place?

but i notice you didnt answer my initial question either.....perhaps try now?

and funny how you call educating hate a "distraction"....i find books and movies and tv programs that dehumanize me a bit more serious, but what do i know, its only be going on for 2,000+ years. Maybe you could tell me why they have such things in their charter like "kill the jews", etc.....

lets see if you answer some questions here, as opposed to avoiding them.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

102. Haniyehs statement...

which one?...and what does he control?...I'm not one to take "statements" without the change "on the ground".....politicians talk is cheap. As far as the charter goes, perhaps to you it means nothing, to us israelis a group, who now heads the govt, whos basis is our destruction as well as all the jews means a lot..and it affects what we do. Cant change it?....why is that?..to much hate for the jews?


Those kassams?...of the 800+ launched few were killed...doesnt excuse the attempts at murdering israelis. So israel was supposed to do nothing?...and let the palestenians improve their aim?...i noticed you didnt answer the question...should israel do nothing to stop the launching of kassams?

(actually it was islamic jihad that was doing much of the launching, with sometime hamas members and sometimes fatah-so because the palestenains cant seem to "control themselves" israel should just accept being shot at?.....


The goal is to get as much land, and control of as many resources as possible....ooops israel left gaza remember?....and palestenain civil war?...i'm always amused at how israel is guilty when the palestenain shoot at each other. you've got relatives in gaza...then why not ask them who is shooting at who?...ask them about the clan down in southern gaza, who their allied with this week..or the "neighborhood watch' in beit hanon....the tunnel makers, who are they paying off this month?....try taking some responsability for your own actions, thats the first step towards making a state. Succeed in gaza, and perhaps us israelis will have a bit more confidence in you, keep shooting at us and at yourselves...well its been a losing proposition for the last 50 years (look at the maps), perhaps you should try a different strategy.

and israel does have a charter: its called the basic laws, which are based on civil rights...its the basis for any democratic society...its quite the opposite of the hate filled charter of the hamas..that would be a good place to start the change......

[Meshuga]

103. Pelsar

ProgressiveCritic has to worry about some bullshit color system created by the Bush administration here in the US to see whether we are in "danger" of attacks. The terror threat is probably at orange at the moment (whatever that means). Now, you have thousands of rockets pointed at Israel, with a hostile group launching them at your border, with a country that has publicly said they want to wipe you off the map actually providing these weapons.

I guess his answer is that Israel should not defend herself and her citizens.

[barb162]

338. This post is so full of inaccuracies it's hard to know where to begin

Yes, the kassams certainly caused casualties.
Hamas, with its own security forces or gangs, could have shut those kassams down any ol' time they felt like it. As could have Fatah. And to say that Hamas wasn't doing this or that, versus another Pal terror group like IJ, is ridiculous. Who cares which group is doing it. Neither Fatah nor Hamas lifted a finger to stop the daily attacks on Israel.

Since when were Hamas or Fatah interested in Israel's opinion on how they should get along in getting Gaza going?

The Charter? Who in their right mind would sit at a table with someone who has put in writing they want you dead.

[cali]

97. You might get your points across better

if you didn't attack someone as 'hypocritical'. You're new to DU. Pelsar's been engaged in this discourse here for a long time. He's an Israeli. You, I would wager are an American. You may disagree with his pov, but to deem it as hypocritical is hardly the road to productive discourse with someone who actually has a direct stake in this.

[ProgressiveCritic]

99. I think my use

of the word is justified. I didn't say Pelsar was a hypocrite, but that his POV on the issue of "teaching hate" is hypocritical... I think it's quite hypocritical to chastise victims for "hating" while your gov't is trying to bomb their infrastructure out from under them... as though the core issue is the victims *acceptable response* to the brutality, rather than to the brutality itself.

Moreover, I am a long-time reader of this forum. And I too have stake in this conflict, with relatives all over Gaza, so please don't make assumptions about me.

[cali]

100. I don't think you realize what you're saying

almost by definition, a pov relates to a person's beliefs. His pov, or your pov, or my pov may be something that others profoundly disagree with, but that has nothing to do with hypocricy.

[ProgressiveCritic]

101. Nothing personal here...

Hypocrisy:

1 : a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion


....With this definition in mind, therefore, I find that a point of view that chastises Palestinians for "teaching hate," while rationalizing the bombing of civilians -- which provides ample grist for "hate" -- is in fact hypocritical.

I wasn't aware that it was against the rules to point out hypocrisy or double standards on these boards.

[pelsar]

178. there is no excuse for teaching hate...period

israelis have also been bombed and terrorized...yet walking in to public school, watching israeli TV, listening to the govt radio.....there is no talk of dehumanization of the palestenians or arabs.....quite the opposite can be found in the palestenain media, in TV shows, movies, rallies etc

celebrations of killing civilians?.....part of the palestenian culture..just check out the posters in jebaliya, jenin

_____________________________

we have more than our share of having our children killed.....but we dont teach those that survived and those that come after to hate the palesteniains or to celebrate in their deaths.....teaching hate and those that excuse it simply prefer to prolong the conflict. because for those that hate, they need it.

[ProgressiveCritic]

347. I gave up the myth

of the moral superiority of the IDF and of Israel when I was standing on my MIL's roof in Khan Younis and watched the IDF shoot a 12 y.o. boy in the back, and dump his body in the back of their jeep like a sack of potatoes... (this was in 1988).

I find it fascinating to witness the power of propaganda to shape people's thinking. And I can say is, I shake my head in wonderment every time an Israel-apologist brings up "teaching hate...."

There is absolutely no teacher like the Israeli occupation....

[TomClash]

104. Congratulations on an interesting and reasoned response to the OP

until the last four paragraphs, which are basically drivel. You skip the entire history of Palestine and misconstrue the "offer" made by Israel to the Palestinians.

[cali]

85. That's an article with one purpose

only, and it's certainly not to educate, but to rabble rouse. The Accusation that Zionists collaborated with Nazis is garbage. It was a complex situation, but essentially some of the Zionists were desperate to get Jews out of Germany in the thirties and tried to deal with Nazi government. There's an excellent and well researched book on the subject called "The Transfer Agreement".

In addition, Mr. Goff uses quotes that can't be verified, selectively picks quotes, leaving out much contemperaneous material that doesn't fit his thesis, and uses quotes and information without any context.

God knows there's plenty to criticize about Israel, without this kind of propagandistic hate speech. And no, I'm not suggesting that hate is directed at Jews, but at who he deems as Zionists and Israel. Of course, that does add up to the majority of Jews in the world, but what the hey.

[jonnyblitz]

105. wow. 16 recommends!!

:thumbsup:

[chimpymustgo]

106. Hey DU'ers: GWB and PNAC support this carnage. How can you?

I am absolutely stunned by the lack on humanity toward the people of Lebanon, who are being MURDERED...their homes, their lives DESTROYED...for WHAT???

This is a psychopath's wet dream. Chimpy can't get the smile off his face. Bill Kristol has to change his pants every hour. Wolfowitz is licking his comb with delight.

DU'ers, where are your HEARTS?? How can you not denounce this madness? WE ARE NOT LIKE THEM!!!

Please read this.
Thanks to leftchick who originally posted this link. It is a MUST READ.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stan-goff/the-pword_b_251 ...

- snip -

But we seldom hear of this theft, or of the massive theft of Palestinian water. The US press has been so thoroughly intimidated by Zionist publicist/attack dogs, who bait every critic of Israel as an anti-Semite, that they have developed journalistic norms with regard to Palestine-Israel that completely support the Zionist position.

Robin C. Miller's book "The Media's Middle East Rules of Engagement" is a good primer on how this works, listing ten "rules" that are scrupulously followed and giving examples of each.

Rule 1: See the Middle East through Israeli eyes.
Rule 2: Treat American and Israeli governmental statements as hard news.
Rule 3: Ignore the historical context.
Rule 4: Avoid the fundamental legal and moral issues posed by the Israeli occupation.
Rule 5: Suppress or minimize news unfavorable to the Israelis.
Rule 6: Muddy the waters when necessary.
Rule 7: Credit all Israeli claims, even if wholly unfounded.
Rule 8: Doubt all Palestinian assertions, no matter how self-evident.
Rule 9: Condemn only Palestinian violence.
Rule 10: Disparage the international consensus supporting Palestinian rights.

There is an eleventh rule that hovers over all the other rules. Equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. This shuts everyone up. That's why it is so critically important that this Eleventh Rule be challenged loudly and clearly and frequently. Anti-Zionism is NOT anti-Semitism. Zionism is not Judaism. Not all Jews are Zionists, and not all Zionists are Jews. The point is that Zionism raises many questions about what constitutes Jewishness. Israeli Jews are largely secular, so it cannot be called a strictly religious category.

-snip-

[bryant69]

107. I don't know that we are like anything

We are individuals; some of whom have looked at the middle east situation and come to a different conclusion than you have.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Ian David]

108. This is the same anti-semitic pro-nazi diatibe that got deleted last night

What hateful, racist bigoted things you have posted!

It was the most hateful thing I had ever seen posted in DU when I hit the alert button on it last night (and the moderators deleted it) and it is still the most vile anti-semitic Nazi propoganda on DU today when I hit the alert button again.

No response necessary.

You're on my ignore list now.

[chimpymustgo]

111. Please tell me how this is hateful. I found this article to be very sober

and thoughtful, and was stunned that it was put in the basement. I am serious...we are here to help enlighten each other. I do not see the hate here. Help me.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

113. The answers are in the article. Points 1-10.

Criticizing Israel and/or Zionism is obviously "anti-semitic" to those who defend everything Israel does.

Akin to calling all leftists "commies".

[rodeodance]

114. I was wondering also.

[jonnyblitz]

175. its NOT anti-semitic. the warmongers are trying to stifle debate.

you should see them whining and ringing their hands on the other thread about this article.

[barb162]

335. You're watching too much Sci- Fi

[JuniperLea]

116. I'd like for someone to explain that to me

How is it anti-semitic? How is it Nazi propaganda? I keep seeing those words tossed around but have yet to see an explanation.

[Ian David]

134. I don't know if I have the patience or the temperment right now

Go ask somebody else, and hope they believe you're honestly confused.

[JuniperLea]

149. Don't have an answer, eh?

Thanks for proving my point. Nice dodge.

[Name removed]

155. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JuniperLea]

161. Is that a threat?

I'm not scared. All I want is an answer.

You don't know me, my background or anything else about me, yet you assume I'm just being snide or glib. I would seriously like an explanation as to why this is anti-semitic. So far you have only managed to tell me you have no answer and you are willing to resort to threats to keep from having to give one, yet you are firm in your belief that this is anti-semitic.

Just so you know... I was raised Christian by an Irish Catholic grandmother and a Jewish godmother, I am now Agnostic. I have no personal axe to grind. I just want to be informed. If you can't do that, then say so. Threats only weaken your stance, imho.

[burythehatchet]

142. Your answer

Persecution complex
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

A persecution complex is a term given to an array of psychologically complex behaviours, that specifically deals with the perception of being persecuted, for various possible reasons.


Although being actually persecuted is obviously a negative experience, many people have a strong desire to imagine that they are persecuted, so that they can reap certain benefits without suffering actual persecution. One major benefit of pretending to be oppressed or harrassed is that people often support the underdog. Members of the majority may see the concern and aid given to a genuinely persecuted minority, and want to obtain those priveledges for themselves. A person who claims to have been persecuted may enjoy being the center of attention, as well as receiving tangible "compensation" for grievances that do not actually exist.

Another benefit of imagining oneself as persecuted is the ability to use it as an excuse for failure. For instance, a white male who fails to pass a university entrance exam might blame a conspiracy of affirmative action and reverse racism.

Since real persecution is generally seen as a bad thing, people can also use the claim of persecution to portray their opponents as immoral.

[JuniperLea]

145. I see

It's exactly like Bush... either you're with him or you're with the terrorists.

[burythehatchet]

140. Persecution complex

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

A persecution complex is a term given to an array of psychologically complex behaviours, that specifically deals with the perception of being persecuted, for various possible reasons.


Although being actually persecuted is obviously a negative experience, many people have a strong desire to imagine that they are persecuted, so that they can reap certain benefits without suffering actual persecution. One major benefit of pretending to be oppressed or harrassed is that people often support the underdog. Members of the majority may see the concern and aid given to a genuinely persecuted minority, and want to obtain those priveledges for themselves. A person who claims to have been persecuted may enjoy being the center of attention, as well as receiving tangible "compensation" for grievances that do not actually exist.

Another benefit of imagining oneself as persecuted is the ability to use it as an excuse for failure. For instance, a white male who fails to pass a university entrance exam might blame a conspiracy of affirmative action and reverse racism.

Since real persecution is generally seen as a bad thing, people can also use the claim of persecution to portray their opponents as immoral.

[mom cat]

160. How is it anti-Semitic to quote the founders of Zionism? Being against

Zionism is NOT being anti-Semitic. The brutal occupation of the Palestinian homeland is in many ways like our own brutal genocide against the indigenous people of what we call America. Both are reprehensible colonialist excesses.
I think that it is our moral obligation to point out policies where anyone's human rights are violated and not censor ourselves because current perpetrators have been victims in the past.
I do not think that calling Stan Goff's piece anti-semitic helps the dialog, and it waters down the meaning of the phrase as well. Hard core anti-semitism has no place in civilized society. Neither does the colonial occupation of another land, whether the brutal occupiers are Pilgrims, coalitions of the killing,Zionist occupiers or Nazi invaders.
The act of invading another country is now considered to be a war crime. Let us stop letting some people be allowed to be above the rules.

[rodeodance]

109. The article makes lots of good points about the media (which, at times

travelers down to the minds of the readers).

[Drum]

110. Trying not to see everything as "We/Them" nt

[rodeodance]

112. yes, The binaries do bad things.

[cgrindley]

115. Wow

So much anti-semitic nonsense.

Did I just read this or am I still asleep:

"I am absolutely stunned by the lack on humanity toward the people of Lebanon, who are being MURDERED...their homes, their lives DESTROYED...for WHAT???"

Uh, for like launching missiles into Israel and terrorism and stuff.

[JuniperLea]

117. Ummm. the people of Lebanon did that?

Who launched the first attack with weaponry?

I'm not sure which one of us just woke up...

[Binka]

119. Thank you

Have you noticed an extreme infusion of brand new posters who are fueling and fanning flames? It is not very subtle or effective.

[JuniperLea]

121. Yes, indeed.

The rhetoric is thick but transparent.




Hi Binka!

:hi:

[Binka]

123. It Is Very Tedious

How are you my friend?:hi:

[JuniperLea]

126. Doing well... dispite the world going crazy around me

I'm not sure why! Maybe the thought of going crazy is just to scary:)

How's your kid? I think of him often.

[cgrindley]

129. Are you accusing me of being a troll

Because I have a pro-Israeli opinion with regard to this one issue? Hezbollah shelled an Israeli town on July 12. They acted first. To deny it is to willfully dismiss events that only occurred a few days ago. Events that are incontestibly part of the public record.

PS an attitude of some sort of privilege because you have more posts than I do is idiotic and offensive.

[Binka]

132. I Never Accused You Of Anything

I simply stated an observation. I never claimed an attitude of privilege those are your words. Please do not bother responding to me again as I now have you on ignore. Bye.

[stepnw1f]

146. Yes, I have noticed that too

But I'm also surprised by some longtime DUers here.

[malaise]

156. Surprised is an understatement

but since people can be 'liberal hawks' anything is possible.:puke:

[cgrindley]

125. Drink some coffee

Hezbollah started bombarding Israel at 9:05 am on July 12. They fired rockets and mortars at Shelomi. All else follows.

[JuniperLea]

128. Coffee is on...

And what prompted those attacks of which you speak?

[cgrindley]

131. It's too hot for coffee

I think that the conflict goes back some years and is strangely related to other conflicts that go back some other years.

That's why the UN should be there. Neither side can be trusted to keep things rational.

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cgrindley]

141. I'm not saying

that Israel isn't in the wrong sometimes, hell, often, but they're certainly not in the wrong this particular time. I'm just totally shocked at the incredible knee jerk reactions over something that really shouldn't inspire them. The world is a complex place. But it does just so happen that the instigators *this* time were Hezbollah.

[The Stranger]

139. Coffee sucks.

Israel has been bombing and murdering innocent people who have absofuckinglutely nothing to do with Hezbollah, and they keep on doing it.

[cracksquirrel]

170. True

Except that Hezbollah, having NO regard for human life, decides to park its rocket launchers on the roofs of apartment buildings, because they know that Israel WILL try to destroy those sites, and there WILL be civilian casualties, therefore Israel is condemned by the wider world for perpetrating civilian mayhem. It's a cynical game Hezbollah and other terrorist organizations have been playing for decades. The informed person's job is not to play into that game.

[Maiden England]

162. When you have a government that does nothing

about the terrorists holding the southern part of their country and using it as a base from which to lauch terrorist attacks, then you have a government harboring terrorists.
If they hadn't wanted bombs raining down on their citizens, perhaps they should have tried harder to seek a peace and kick the murdering terrorists out.

[acmavm]

118. Yeah, the civilian population, the old men and women, the

children, the sick and mentally ill, the average guy on the street. You're blaming them for launching those missiles? They're the ones doing the dying from Israel's barbaric and inhumane reaction.

[rodeodance]

120. It is the regular people-the families of Lebenon that are suffering.

[cgrindley]

122. Then they should stop

electing, harboring and supporting Hezbollah. Hezbollah's political arm's stated goal is the destruction of the state of Israel. I don't care if Hezbollah delivers milk to every preschool in Idaho, Hezbollah *still* advocates the utter destruction of Israel. It is a terrorist militia, albeit one recognized by Lebanon itself.

[JuniperLea]

130. Recognized by Lebanon?

Got something to back that up?

[cgrindley]

137. Sure

Hezbollah has control of all 23 elected seats in Southern Lebanon and 46 seats overall.

Lebanon is in violation of UN 1583 and UN 1559.

For example: since the US government refuses to step in and get rid of the Minutemen, then we can assume that the US government condones their activities and that it's all symptomatic of an institutional level of racism. Same thing in Lebanon. That Hezbollah is a recognized political party is absurd. They're an extremist hate group.

[liberalhistorian]

167. Bullshit that it's recognized by Lebanon.

And why is it that the Israel worshippers always assume that every single Lebanese/Palestinian civilian has control over the likes of Hezbollah? Does every single Israeli citizen have personal control over their leaders?

And speaking of supporting terrorists, that's exactly what Israel did when it elected Sharon, the "Butcher of Beirut", responsible for the massacre of thousands of refugees. Or is it too convenient for you to forget that little inconvenient fact?

[The Stranger]

136. Welcome to DU, I suppose.

I would recommend sticking to the facts, which are that innocent Lebanese people who have nothing to do with Hezbollah are being ruthlessly murdered.

[cgrindley]

144. I thought the facts were that

Innocent Israelis were being ruthlessly murdered by a terrorist militia, whose leaders are elected members of parliament, representing all 23 of 23 seats in Southern Lebanon, and whose existence as a militia is in direct violation of two separate UN resolutions. And I thought that Hezbollah's platform had something to do with the "peaceful" establishment of Lebanon as an Islamic State, and the utter destruction of Israel.

Loook. Israel does some screwed up stuff and is responsible for some horrible repression of the Palestinians. But you've got to see logic on this one. Hezbollah is Hezbollah. They're not girlscouts, and both the government of Lebanon and the people of Southern Lebanon are complicit in their crimes.

[JuniperLea]

147. It would help if you made up your mind

In another post you said the Palestinians wanted to wipe out Israel and they were the bad guys.

[cgrindley]

152. There are more than one set of bad guys

Or guys and gals that rotate between being bad, good, indifferent, and not involved at all.

Hamas and Hezbollah, yeah, they are bad guys all the time.

[The Stranger]

157. Israel is not bombing Hezbollah. Israel is bombing innocent Lebanese.

These are the facts. Please wake up to them.

[liberalhistorian]

169. He won't wake up to them, because in

his mind, ALL Lebanese people are guilty terrorists. So kill them all, bomb their food, milk and paper factories, destroy their infrastructure and economy, create thousands of orphaned children, etc., etc. They're ALL guilty, ALL the time. :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[barb162]

336. Israel is bombing Hez who are hiding in civilian areas and Israel

is dropping leaflets to civilians. Does Hez warn Israeli civilians before they attack Israel? No, Hez simply sends out indiscriminate rocket attacks.

[liberalhistorian]

168. Using that bullshit logic, I suppose you could say

that the people of Israel are all responsible for Sharon's murderous actions in the Lebanese refugee camps in the early 80's. But again, I suppose only Israeli victims matter.

[liberalhistorian]

166. Oh, bullshit. Do you not see the Lebanese as

human beings, or do only Israeli victims matter. The civilians and the civilian infrastructure being murdered and destroyed had NOTHING to do with launching any kind of missiles. Oh, yeah, I get it. They're ALL just terrorists, every single one. And anyone who protests their treatment is automatically an anti-semitic supporter of Hezbollah.

Jesus H. Christ in a canoe, that's getting really old. How much longer are you guys going to be able to justify Israel's actions by pinning all the blame on all of the Lebanese civilians?

[katinmn]

124. K&N

[peacetalksforall]

127. This war is against Hezbollah because they are equivalent to the

effusive 'terrorists'.

This is an Israel<>U.S./U.K. known and partnered step in a plan. We saw it coming. PNAC told us it was coming. All words coming from Ms Liars mouth as well as the Boltons of this administration told us this was coming.

And who is getting killed and their country destroyed - the Lebanese IN ADDITION to the IRAQIS. Evidently, they were seen as weak and not worthy of living.

This is all a plan.

Next... the Syrian...Iranian peoples.

This is about water and oil for Israel and now and future profits for the U.S. and who knows what for the U.K.

Israel is not innocent.

i.e., the Likud Party is not innocent.

Edited to add - this is all about being anti-Hezbollah. if it has to be said.

The culprits are PNAC, the Likud Party, Hamas, Hezbollah, and other untitled terrorists. The culprits are those who lead for profit and are seriously anti-peace.

There is nothing anti-semite about this.
This is all about being anti-Likud Party.

I wish people would stop making me think they are calling me for being anti-semite.

Label it correctly. Label it for what it is.

[chimpymustgo]

135. This destruction of Lebanon has been planned for years.

Thanks to DU'er bloom for this post:

July 16, 2006
War Gives Israeli Leader Political Capital

By STEVEN ERLANGER
JERUSALEM, July 15 — The raid into Israel from southern Lebanon by the Shiite militia group Hezbollah has provided the new government of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert a deeper political consensus, allowing him to prosecute a war that is widely supported by the Israeli people.

Before Hezbollah struck Wednesday, the Israeli operation in Gaza was into its third week with no tangible results and a mounting one-sided death toll. Its stated goals were to free the Israeli soldier captured inside Israel on June 25 in an attack in which two other soldiers were killed, and to stop Qassam rocket fire into Israel. But neither had been accomplished, and international criticism was growing.

So was internal criticism of Mr. Olmert and his inexperienced defense minister, Amir Peretz, the leader of the Labor Party, after the initial surge of solidarity over the soldier’s capture. That act itself was viewed as a humiliation for the army, which had received clear warnings of the plot from domestic intelligence.

Then Hezbollah killed eight Israeli soldiers and captured two. There appeared to be far fewer complications than in Gaza. This was aggression across a United Nations-drawn international border by a well-equipped state-within-a-state supported by Iran and Syria. Even more, the United Nations Security Council had demanded two years ago that Hezbollah be dismantled and replaced on the border by the Lebanese Army.

“The Hezbollah issue helps the Olmert government a lot, because Hezbollah gave them a wonderful option to do something the army was already prepared to do, with a well-constructed operational plan on the shelf,” said Ron Pundak, director general of the Peres Center for Peace and a former Israeli negotiator with the Palestinians.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/16/world/middleeast/16ol...


According to Juan Cole:

"If the reports coming out of Lebanon can be believed, the Israelis are only sometimes striking known Hizbullah safe houses or facilities or missile emplacements. A lot of their bombardment appears aimed at punishing civilian populations and forcing them north to Beirut. Such an approach would help explain the high number of civilian casualties. That is, there may be an element of ethnic cleansing in Israeli tactics."

[Hubert Flottz]

138. War = CASH

War = GOP votes

[Virginia Dare]

159. Very True...

and War=big ratings for the 24 hour news cycle & more newspapers sold

[mmonk]

143. People have different opinions?

Anyway, chalk me up as someone who is concerned and doesn't like carnage anywhere. The aspects that this could become a broader conflict and involve more war is bothersome. That's why I like people at least try to diplomatically stop violence. I'm not under any illusion that it is easy, especially when people attack each other.

[Virginia Dare]

148. War is something that should never be accepted (period)....

P.S. It is not anti-Semitic to oppose the policies of the Israeli government, just as it is not anti-Islamic to oppose the policies of the Iranian government.

[Freddie Stubbs]

150. Don't forget about Russ Feingold!

And what does Hezbollah have to do with the Palestinians?

[Anarcho-Socialist]

151. The article is right out of the IHR play book

I'm surprised the author's section about "Zionist collaboration with Nazi Germany" didn't ring any warning bells here.

He used legitimate concerns about Israeli reactions in the Middle East and the aloofness of the U.S. to use as window dressing for anti-semitic remarks. He's calling for the de facto destruction of Israel; and he uses a stupid, highly-revisionist comparison of Israel and Nazi Germany.

People here should know better.

[cgrindley]

153. Thank you

I hate fighting a battle against something so utterly asinine.

[mmonk]

154. Too many agendas here to have legitimate discussions sometimes.

[cracksquirrel]

171. Funny how that gets glossed over

I went to an ISO (International Socialist Organization) sponsored event where some Palestinian journalist was speaking here at Santa Cruz. I asked a question about god knows what, but in reply, one of the ISO girls told me point-blank and in virtually so many words, that the Zionists were complicit with Hitler and helped planned the Holocaust JUST so that Israel could be founded after the war. In otherwords, it somehow makes sense in some peoples minds that Jewish interests would want 6 million Jews to die just to steal a narrow strip of desert from the Arabs. The shrieking, grinding cognative dissonance is enough to melt your brain.

[jonnyblitz]

176. that article was by famous renowned jewish philosopher

Hannah Arendt. you might want to EDUCATE YOURSELF and look her up before you start saying things that show you don't know what you are talking about. she is hardly a holocaust revisionist since she lived in germany up into WWI before she fled , and did i say SHE WAD JEWISH? look her up, learn something.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

177. You should read what she wrote, and you may learn something

The author of the article (Goff) misrepresented her evidence

Goff asserted:

1. That Zionists collaborated with Nazi Germany
2. Zionists knew what they were doing
3. Zionists have no right to lay claim to the Holocaust tragedy

The author mischaracterised Dr. Arendt's evidence and it bears no relation to what he asserts, there is no quoting or paraphrasing of her evidence. He has taken it out of context and it has the hallmarks of poor research. I actually wonder if Mr Goff understands what Dr. Arendt has written.

Dr. Arendt wrote of Zionists groups attempts to deal with the Nazi regime to try and get Jews out of Germany and into Palestine. For a time the Nazis were willing to go along with it because they received gold and money for Jews desperate to get out. This is verifiable by other sources.

Goff takes this and terms it "collaboration". Very similar to what pseudo-academics such as IHR do, to try to infer Jewish responsibility for the Holocaust. Goff uses it to equate Israel and Zionism with Nazi Germany/Fascism.

Regarding Dr. Arendt why don't you look her up? Obviously then you'd realise that she fled Germany before WW2 and not WW1.

Regarding the 'education' of myself. I am trained in historiography. Judging from your post I can't say that you have been, and it is obvious that Mr. Goff has certainly not been.

[cali]

346. Bravo.

Great post. Thank you so much. I'm shocked at the glowing reception of Goff's extraordinarily deceitful diatribe.

[nguoihue]

158. Another rule to be followed:

Palestinian and Lebanese resistance fighters shall always be referred to as "gunmen".

[Skittles]

163. I'm reminded of a MASH episode

Hawkeye shows a bomber pilot one of his patients, a little girl injured in a raid - the pilot is shaken and asks whose side did it? Hawkeye said it didn't matter. The pilot said IT DOES TO ME.....Hawkeye resonded, "NOT TO HER".

[chimpymustgo]

164. Skittles, ain't that the truth...eom

nt

[fordnut]

165. Bush and other Neo-Cons

have never come to grips with the concept of what`s good for the goose is good for the gander.

[chimpymustgo]

172. Why was this moved to the basement?

It stayed in GD all day long. What is the frigging policy? There are dozens of threads that DON'T get moved.

[roguevalley]

173. I condemn all violence on both sides. I do not weight who is worse

than the other because they are all fuckers.

[DemFromMem]

174. You cannot get off the hook so easily

Anti-Zionism - true anti-Zionism - is the denial of the right of Jews to a homeland in Israel. At its core, anti-Zionism is the denial of the right of Israel to exist. It is not the opposition of Israeli expansionism. Many Zionists, myself included, vehemently oppose occupation and settlements. When you take on Zionism, you are taking on something much more fundamental.

Israel is the only country in the world guaranteeing Jews a safe haven from persecution. To oppose the right of Israel to exist is to say that Jews are not entitled to such a safe haven. Israel was created in the wake of the pogroms of the turn of the century and the frenzy of madness of the Nazis. How can we NOT equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism? The only reason Israel exists is to protect Jews from anti-Semitism.

Now you can legitimately discuss finding justice for the Palestinians. They deserve their own state along with the Jews. But such a discussion should be predicated on the basic assumption that Israel has the right to survive. And if you think Israel has the right to survive, then you are essentially a Zionist.

[no_to_war_economy]

180. Zionism is not Judaism -

Let's just get something out of the way right up front, before I go any further. Zionism is not Judaism; being Jewish does not make anyone Zionist; and anti-Zionism is not equivalent to anti-Semitism.

It is now well past time for the United States to withdraw all rogue state, Israel; though that is unlikely to happen without a movement to make it happen, because the US is now effectively the biggest and most dangerous rogue state on the planet.

Rule 1: See the Middle East through Israeli eyes.
Rule 2: Treat American and Israeli governmental statements as hard news.
Rule 3: Ignore the historical context.
Rule 4: Avoid the fundamental legal and moral issues posed by the Israeli occupation.
Rule 5: Suppress or minimize news unfavorable to the Israelis.
Rule 6: Muddy the waters when necessary.
Rule 7: Credit all Israeli claims, even if wholly unfounded.
Rule 8: Doubt all Palestinian assertions, no matter how self-evident.
Rule 9: Condemn only Palestinian violence.
Rule 10: Disparage the international consensus supporting Palestinian rights.

There is an eleventh rule that hovers over all the other rules. Equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. This shuts everyone up. That's why it is so critically important that this Eleventh Rule be challenged loudly and clearly and frequently. Anti-Zionism is NOT anti-Semitism. Zionism is not Judaism. Not all Jews are Zionists, and not all Zionists are Jews.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stan-goff/the-pword_b_25144.html

[Ian David]

181. That's fucking hateful and ugly.

I am disgusted and hurt by that article.

[bryant69]

183. Which part is ugly?

The bit about equating anti-zionism with anti-semitism?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Ian David]

186. "The Rules" and other parts of the article on HuffPost. n/t

[bryant69]

192. Yeah but those do describe how many handle the

Israeli/Palestine conflict.

Bryant

[Ian David]

193. You miss the point. n/t

[bryant69]

212. Ah.

I suppose I'll just have to live with that.

This is a good strategy, though. I salute you. By refusing to engage me, but simply replying in one line epigrams, it implies that if I don't see the ugliness, I must be ugly myself. And of course, we all know that ugly, in this context, is just another word for anti-Semetic. Your arguments must be extrodinarily flimsy if this is the sort of defense you through up in order to protect them from examination.

Still it will probably work.

Bryant

[Ian David]

222. I didn't say that you were ugly yourself.

I just don't have the patience to politely engage you.

[bryant69]

231. I understand.

And, like I said, it's probably for the best.

[EFerrari]

201. I got through about half of it and Ian is right. It is ugly.

The author equates Zionism with its ugliest proponents and he gets some of his history wrong, e.g., the British partitioned Palestine, they did not "award" it to the World Zionist Organization.

I am and have been critical of Israeli policy for years now. And this piece is scurrilous. It is possible to talk about colonialism without being scurrilous.

[David__77]

196. You contribute nothing to a real debate...

People get emotionally hurt in debates. But there's nothing racist in these statements. There are indeed plenty of anti-Zionist Jews who are not "self-hating."

[ThomCat]

197. I disagree.

Those rules are spot-on. They seem to be nearly 100% accurate when you look at actual media reporting.

The comparison between what Israel is doing, and what the US did with Native Americans, and what South Africa did during Apartheid are not new. They are obvious comparisons.

I'm sure Native Americans were labeled the same way Palestinians are. Save, only understand violence, out to destroy our society, etc. A lot of the attacks against Native Americas were supposedly justified in the name of self defense, defending our settlers, defending out settlements, and defending our borders.

[EFerrari]

225. Did you read the article or just the OP?

Be warned, it's vile.

[ThomCat]

234. I did read the article.

Twice now. It's harsh, but it's factual. I don't like the tone of it, but if I interpret the Zioinism he's talking about as the extreme Israeli ultra-nationalist then I agree with most of his article.

Israel seems to be one of the most instensely nationalistic nations on earth, in part because religion is so strongly bonded with political identify. That extreme nationalism is being used to defend and justify the unjustifiable. There is an "anything we do is right" attitude there that is far worse than even what you see here in the US.

[EFerrari]

238. It contains factual errors that even I can spot. And he equates

"Zionism" with cherrypicked, horrible individuals in order to make his argument, which he needn't have done to make his case and it's precisely there that he is vile.

I understand the argument about nationalism and I largely agree with it. But, Zionism has a meaning. It doesn't mean white supremacy.

[The Magistrate]

257. You Are Quite Right, Ma;am

The most egregious is the citation of Jabotinski as the prototypical Zionist. Jabotonski's "Revisionist Zionism" was a distinctly minority at its formulation in the twenties, and for many decades afterwards, both in the Mandatory and State periods. While it is true enough that the Likud can, through various convolutions, trace its roots to this splinter faction, Likud did not become a majority force in Israeli politics until after the major wars of Israel had ceased with the near-defeat of the '73 attack, which greatly discredited the Labor bloc, hitherto unquestionably predominant, and that victory had a great deal more to do with the feelings of Sephardic Jews they were getting a raw deal in Israeli society at the time than with any wide agreement even then with Jabotinski's formulations of Zionism.

[EFerrari]

261. It's very good to be in agreement with you, Sir.

:hi:

[The Magistrate]

265. And With You As Well, Ma'am

Perhaps the Apocalypse really is upon us....

[EFerrari]

268. lol

I hope not. I have to take my constitutional and write my monthly encomium to The Junior. It would be a terrible disruption to be enraptured during such a full day.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

182. Depends On Your Definition Of Zionism

If Zioninsm is defined as the belief that Jews should have a national homeland in Israel then over 90% of Jews are Zionists and over 77% of Americans are too.

I can supply links if you desire.

[ThomCat]

185. By that definition I'm a Zionist

and I am vehemently opposed to what Israel is doing.

[Marie26]

219. Exactly.

Definition of Zionism -

Zionism - A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.

http://www.answers.com/topic/zionism

Zionism, the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel, advocated, from its inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions, left and right, religious and secular, joined to form the Zionist movement and worked together toward these goals. Disagreements led to rifts, but ultimately, the common goal of a Jewish state in its ancient homeland was attained. The term "Zionism" was coined in 1890 by Nathan Birnbaum.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/zionism.html

Complete history of Zionism -
http://www.mideastweb.org/zionism.htm

[leveymg]

252. There's at least two more cross-cutting divisions within Judaism

As pointed out above, Zionists support the concept of a Jewish homeland located in the the geographical area where ancient Israel once stood. On the other hand, there are Jews whose interpretation of Torah tell them that political efforts to establish a modern-day Israeli state are a usurpation of G-d's power, and that a legitimate new Israel will not come until after the Messiah's arrival, as foretold by scripture.

Another division is between political factions of the Israeli population. On one hand are the Right-wing nationalists and extremist religious parties, which embrace the exclusion of non-Jews from within Israel and the further expansion of the state's national borders, while on the other are a minority Left-wing faction with a strong internationalist background who are more inclined to accept a secular state that's confined to the pre-1973 or 1967 bordeers who are also willing to accomodate the return of some if not all Palestinians displaced by the 1948 Establishment and subsequent wars. This division does not perfectly match the traditional Likud/Labour divide, as many Labour supporters are quite hawkish about how to deal with the Palestinians and would not accept minority status for Jews within a secular Israel that would come with it.

Most American Jews are somewhere in the middle on the Palestinian and borders issues, while few have much awareness of the religious opposition to Zionism.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

279. There Are Jews

There are Jews who are opposed to an Israeli state until the coming of the Messiah, but most Jews live in the real world, and are not prisoners to some esoteric Biblical literature.

The only difference in degree between the average American's support for Israel and the average Jewish person's support for Israel is the depth of the attachment.

[leveymg]

303. There are limits to the price that most Americans are willing to pay

to maintain that support. The depth of the attachment is more shallow and the bottom less secure than it once was.

Part of that is situational -- a revulsion against the frequent wars, targeted assassinations, land grabs and the excessive violence used to put down the Intifada -- while there's also a more generalized drift away from the strong emotional hopes and guilt that accompanied the founding of the state of Israel as the Holocaust fades from living memory.

The Israelis would be wise to carefully conserve the remaining pool of U.S. good will, and never again indulge in wag-the-tail outrages like the OSP-AIPAC espionage operation.

[The Magistrate]

184. Nonetheless, Sir

Any number of persons moved to their views of the Arab Israeli conflict by hatred for Jews have learned that by employing the term Zionist they can get a wider airing of their hate. Others who proclaim themselves Anti-Zionist routinely marshall in their arguments tropes firmly rooted in classical Anti-Semitic literature and views.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

187. Zionism Has Become A Catch All Word Like Islamofascist

It is meant to halt conversation not foster it.


on edit- I am a lousy typist. Should have paid more attention in typing class. Yikes.

[Ian David]

188. Thank you for saying in fewer words, and better than I could.

It's like saying, "I'm not anti-gay... I just believe in protecting marriage!"

"I'm not anti-Jewish, I'm just anti-Zionist! Why should the Jews get to have their own country? Why can't they just live happily someplace like Germany, or Russia?"

[BillZBubb]

190. Sort of like those using the word "terrorist" about Arabs.

The pro-Israeli faction routinely uses the word "terrorist" to describe anyone who fights their aggression.

[The Magistrate]

200. The Word Terrorist, Sir

Carries no real meaning other than "political violence of which the utterer does not approve." A good deal of the violence carried out by the various Arab militants in the history of this conflict has been criminal under the laws of war, being aimed at no other object than the killing of civilians. There has also been some that was quite legitimate, being aimed at military personnel. There has not been much done by Israel in the recent period that it could not be reasonably argued was aimed at some military objective, but in many instances a case could also be pressed that it was criminal owing to insufficient care being taken not to involve non-combatants, or because the military gain was not sufficient to outway the prdictable harm to civilians. The pattern of Israeli criminality tends more towards matters of expropriation in occuppied territories and treatment of prisoners.

[cracksquirrel]

229. Indeed

You keep using this technique called "logic" and "reason" when discussing the matter of Israel/Palestine. Does it sometimes feel like throwing tennisballs at teflon?

[The Magistrate]

241. Many Of My Tastes In Amusement, Sir

Are very, very strange....

"On the whole, I'd rather be in Philadelphia."

[barb162]

333. Was that W. C. Fields who said that?

[Swede]

221. The next time you hear someone say they are an “anti-Zionist”

and not an “anti-Semite,” rest assured they are referring to Jews.

[aquart]

226. They are saying Israel has no right to exist.

But that isn't anti-semitic, oh, no.

[Mir]

256. Not exactly.

Some of the worst, most disgusting Zionists of all are Christians. Pat Robertson, Fallwell, Reed, DeLay, Dick Army and Franklin Graham just to name a few. Christian Zionists are the worst of the worst in many cases because they tie it into their ridiculous notions of the end of the world.

[jonnyblitz]

278. what about the group "JEWS AGAINST ZIONISM" ?

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

what would you call them?

[The Magistrate]

287. An Ultra-Orthodox Splinter, Sir

More a sort of historical re-creationist enterprise than an item of real signifigance. That was a majority view among Jewish thinkers centuries ago, but has rather dwindled in the interval....

[jonnyblitz]

281. ..or the group, "JEWS NOT ZIONISTS"

:shrug:

anti-semites also? or self loathing?

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

[jonnyblitz]

283. self -delete. posted in the wrong place

[DemocratSinceBirth]

284. The Same As I Would Call "Jews For Jesus"

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/


A very small group.

[jonnyblitz]

292. and what do you call them then...

since they are all the same. :shrug:

nobody is claiming being for jesus is anti-semitic. they DO claim being anti zionist is.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

309. They Are A Fringe Group.

They aren't even a fraction of the size of the Log Cabin Republicans or CORE

[sabbat hunter]

189. dupe thread

see here


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x136524

[still_one]

191. All DU has become is a forum for the elders of Zion

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/martin-lewis/nofault-genocide_b_25135.html

[DemocratSinceBirth]

195. Hmmm

I once debated an anti-semite who responded to my remark that the "The Protecols Of Zion" is a fabrication by saying "one can not fabricate that which is true"

Sad.

[still_one]

199. Even though majority of BOTH Dems and repugs support Israel

if the extreme left of the party continues to push for the destruction of Israel the Democrats will lose Jewish votes unfairly

of course, what do they care about the "jew vote"

[thinkingwoman]

321. As a Jew, I would register as an Independent

if the mainstream of the Democratic party was spouting the shit I've read on this board for the past week.

It's over the top. It's ridiculous. It ignores history and context and reality. And yes, it is anti-semitic.

[ThomCat]

202. Nobody here would refer to or believe that tripe.

And your straw-man does not change the facts of what Israel is doing.

[still_one]

210. there is no straw man here, read the complete article by goff

HE CALLS FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL

and I will tell you another thing, keep pushing that type of dialog, and the Democrats will lose Jewish support

This isn't a dialog for a solution, this is a dialog to destroy Israel

[ThomCat]

214. Bullshit.

This Jew isn't going to see Israel destroyed. But I would much rather support a moral nation than a criminal one.

[still_one]

218. well goff calls for the destruction of it, READ THE ARTICLE!!!

Then read the posts at how many people agree with it from the Huffingpost

[ThomCat]

227. I just re-read the entire article to see if I missed something.

His article attacks extreme zionism, but does not call for the destruction of Israel. It calls for an end to support for a white-supremicist political philophy, and me makes a very good case that this is what extreme zionism is.

Perhaps you should be a bit less knee-jerk defensive and re-read the article.

[still_one]

235. thats mighty white and mighty "christian" of you

read my post 53

[ThomCat]

239. I am not, and have never been a Christian.

So take your condescending attitude and shove it someplace. And it's odd that you're accusing me of being "mighty white" when I'm opposing a form of racial supremecy. You're the one supporting the idea that Israel is infallible because they're jewish.

Just because you think it's a propaganda piece and dismiss it doesn't make it so.

[still_one]

247. bye

[DemocratSinceBirth]

242. Half Of Israel Is Sepphardim.

So how can they be a white supremacist nation.

Sepphardic Jews are mostly Jews who were expelled from Spain and settled in various Arab countries. Approximately 850,000 of them were expelled from Arab countries in 1948. Their progeny has grown to over 3,000,000. They are generally brown skinned and indistinguishable from the Arab lands they left.

[Marie26]

243. Or Ethiopian, for that matter. nt

[ThomCat]

246. More of a religious supremacist nation

than white supremacist. But there are strong racial overtones in Israel too. Look at how the Ethiopian Jews are treated.

The whole idea of taking "God's chosen people" too literally almost can't help but lead to a supremecist attitude. It turns everything into "us versus them" and short circuits any real attempt to understand or empathize with other people.

[still_one]

249. do you even know what "CHOSEN PEOPLE" means?

it means they were CHOSEN TO CARRY THE LAW, or Torah in those days

[ThomCat]

254. I know that very well,

but that's not how it's often expressed. In common usage it has often come to mean that we (Jews) are blessed and others are cursed. Or that we are right and they are wrong. Or that it's the whole rest of the world against us.

[Lurking Dem]

253. "Chosen"

That's not "chosen" as in "special" or "superior". It's "chosen" as in, "it's your turn to wash the dishes."

[ThomCat]

255. LOL!

That's a nice and welcome touch of humor on this thread. :)

[Lurking Dem]

258. It is to laugh.

Thank you. :)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

264. Yes , Sadly Jews Haven't Eliminated Racism

and there's tension between Ashkenzi and Spepphardic Jews as there is between African American Christians and caucasian Christians . However Israel has done a lot through social welfare programs to bring up the standard of everybody's living there including the indigenous Arabs.

Oh, the Falasha or Ethiopian Jews are a lot better off in Israel than they were in Ethiopia.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

228. These Threads Aren't Productive

Let's dispense with some canards.

Your garden variety Jewish person is not particularly religious but they are committed to Israel's continued existence while simultaneously favoring a two state solution; as are most Americans. You can argue by anecdote and cite this Jewish person or that Jewish person who opposes the existence a Jewish state but they are a small minority. Look at opinion polling.


That being said I can appreciate the heart fealt pain of some here who have felt the sting of anti-semitism and see a Jewish state as more than some "political construct."

But we are where we are.

I do think a peaceful resolution that trades land for peace (and) security is the best option.

[ThomCat]

237. I agree.

But Israel has refused to go back to its original borders, and keeps taking farmland and water access in occupied territories, bulldozing Palestinian homes, and dropping missiles on civilians. Even during the height of peace talks Israel has been continuing their work to dominate the land and people beyond their borders. And that's not even talking about the apartheid inside their borders.

[still_one]

245. There are only 14.5 million Jews left

the world has done a good job of trying to eliminate them. That is one of the reasons Israel was created

Read my post 53, it encapsulates my feelings entirely

I also agree with you, these threads are NOT productive, they don't look for a solution, but only tend to propagate the hatred

If Israel was destroyed tomorrow the world wouldn't blink its eye. How do I know:

Look Sundan, Rawanda, the killing fields, and all the other shit that has occurred

Nothing is wrong with critisim , but working toward a solution is far more important, and a solution ISN'T destruction of Israel

Is there a double standard going on?

where was the extensive coverage on the genocide in Sudan, and when Rwanda occurred the media could hardly care less



Hell, when they have an opportunity to attack Israel, and paint Israel as the sole cause of problems in the middle east they seem to rejoice



Why is it expected that Israel or Jews for that matter must be held to a higher standard than anyone else?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

273. I Realize The Scope And Ugly Nature Of Anti-Semitism

I just want a peaceful solution to this crisis that respects everybody's rights.

[ThomCat]

307. I agree. Peaceful co-existance should be the goal.

Neither side should be wiping the other off the map.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

194. Some "anti-zionist" statements from well known people.

"I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state. Apart from the practical considerations, my awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain -- especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks, against which we have already had to fight without a Jewish state." Albert Einstein


"Might not perhaps the "abnormal" existence of the Jews represent a higher form of historical development than territorial nationalism? Has not the diaspora been an essential part of Jewish existence? Did it not secure Jewish survival better than the state could do?" Hans Kohn

"The claim of the Jews to the Land of Israel cannot be a realistic political claim. If all nations would suddenly claim territories in which their forefathers lived two thousand years ago, this world would be a madhouse." Erich Fromm

"I would say the only human response to Holocaust is to try not to be like Nazis, in word or in deed. What brought the Holocaust was the racist attitude towards Jews, the division of German society into Jews and non-Jews on grounds of race. This is exactly the same thing that is happening in Israel." - Concentration-camp survivor Israel Shahak, who currently heads the Israeli League for Civil and Human Rights.

"The State of Israel is a racist state in the full meaning of the term: In this state people are discriminated against, in the most permanent and legal way and in the most important areas of life, only because of their origin." - Israel Shanak

[DemocratSinceBirth]

198. And

I applaud you for finding some Jewish intellectuals who question the wisdom of a Jewish state.

That doesn't negate the fact that Israel is a fait accompli and it's existence is supported by the lion's share of world Jewry.

There are Jews who don't know the Talmud from a toaster who support Israel's continued existence.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

206. I don't support nationalism in any form.

Zionism, Pan-Arabism, Americanism, Aryanism, etc. They all lead to violence and war.

And, in my opinion, all are fair game for criticism.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

208. But Nobody Is

But nobody is arguing that the United States or the various Arab countries be dismantled?

[ThomCat]

216. All talk of a Palestinian nation keeps getting dismantled.

And there is a lot of talk about regime change in Lebanon, Syria and Iran right now.

Edited to make this a bit less snarky. Sorry.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

232. The United States has done a pretty good job of dismanteling Iraq.

And, Israel and Syria are doing much the same in Lebanon.

And, all participants are using much the same reasons. "Protecting" Islam, The Land of Israel, Arabs, Palestinians, Democracy, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

“What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy.” - Gandhi

[aquart]

230. Uh huh.

So Israel should not defend its borders. Nor should we?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

236. By bombing civilians? No.

The Brits managed to defend their borders from a neighboring state that harbored and supplied "terrorists".

Or, did I miss the bombing of Dublin?

[Karmakaze]

244. Here is a question for you:

What right does ANY of the worlds Jewry have to dictate what happens in Palestine? They do not live there, they are not citizens.

Many of the people who lived there were driven out by foreigners. They have every right to demand their land back. Israel is a nation formed out of racism and violence - it does not have a "right to exist" simply because it is there. The nation of Israel should be discarded and a new nation that protects the rights of ALL Palestinians - Jewish and Arab alike - should be formed in its place.

I can't believe that ANY liberal could suppurt a nation whose very existence is based on bigotry and ethnic cleansing.

[The Magistrate]

262. All Nations Are Formed By Racism And Violence, Sir

You will not find a single exception to this throughout human history. Pointing to one instance of the general case and shrieking as if it were somethinmg unique is an exercise in comedy....

[Karmakaze]

277. Bullshit

Ever heard of Iceland? I could go on but having already proved you wrong, I won't bother.

[The Magistrate]

282. Have Heard Of It, Sir

The Saga of Burnt Njal is an old favorite. It is true enough it was uninhabited when the first settlers landed, but they brought slaves, and its development was hardly peaceful.

You would seem, Sir, to have an elevated view of humankind that neither it nor its political arrangements deserve, when closely examined....

[Karmakaze]

289. Oh ok - so in that case then...

If the Arabs get up enough forces and manage to militarily destroy Israel then you will have no problem with that - after all it would be just another example of a nation being formed out of bloodshed, right?

[The Magistrate]

296. If They Manage It, Sir

The spectacle will distress me, as the ruin of any people does or would, and any crimes committed in the course of it will be worthy of condemnation, but that is indeed how the world has always worked, and probably will always work. Once questions have been put to resolution by violence, the result is past appeal....

"When a people appeals to the court of violence, the one thing it must not do is lose."

[Karmakaze]

316. Not quite an answer eh?

Would you support the state that was formed out of an Arab invasion and destruction of the state of Israel?

Straight-forward question, deserves a straight forward answer. Yes or No will do.

[The Magistrate]

317. A Quite Straightforward Answer, Sir

Very little has my support; much has my acceptance.

[Karmakaze]

342. So you still wont answer a plain yes or no?"

I'll take that to mean no then.

[ThomCat]

300. I agree.

There may be some exceptions, where a nation was carved for purely geographic reasons or where the borders of a nation were imposed from the outside. But as a general rule I believe nations have been created along racial/ethnic lines.

[MikeNY]

203. Do you really think its zionism?

The US has a strategic interest in defending Israel and promoting their attacks. We do not want a cease-fire... Israel has been part of our Middle East "strategy" for a long time, but now that strategy is starting to look a lot like "divide and conquer" when, not if, a regional war starts.

The US has abandoned the peace process, because our leaders think peace isn't a part of our security interest. We have abandoned the goal of Middle East peace, so that Israel can "purge" the threats against it.

Lebanon is a democracy. The bombing is actually increasing the instability of Lebanon. Once Lebanon falls, watch and see an Islamic dictatorship emerge. I can see it as a real possibility. This is nuts... our foreign policy needs a change.

Our foreign policy is a big reason we are in the "war on terror" to begin with.

[David__77]

204. "Zionist" "Anti-Zionist" unhelpful terms...

I think that too many anti-Semites have latched on to these terms to make them very helpful in some respects. My position is that Israel/Palestine should be a single, multi-national and democratic, secular state. Those living in the areas under Israeli control should be afforded citizenship, voting rights, and equality in all respects. If this is "anti-Zionist," so be it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

207. There Are Two Hundred Or So Nation States

Why is only the state of Israel deeemed worthy of extinction?

[Karmakaze]

248. Actually the opposite is true

Apparently "regime change" is perfectly valid policy UNLESS it is directed at Israel.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

304. I Oppose Regime Change

but I do wish North Korea would be nicer to its citizens.

[David__77]

260. You cannot compare Israel to Ireland.

For instance. In Ireland, there are almost exclusively IRISH people. There is a Palestinian MAJORITY (including Israeli Arabs) within the area now governed by Israel, though most of the Palestinian people are not considered citizens with the according civil rights.

I believe that Israel should ban racial/national/religious discrimination in public and PRIVATE employment and housing. If something like that is contrary to the foundations of Israel, then there is something wrong with these foundations. Furthermore, there will eventually be a majority or large minority of the citizens of the State of Israel who are Arabs. Demography points to this. What is the solution? Transfer? Evicting Israeli Arabs? Setting up a bantustan?

[Marie26]

205. Here's the thing

A Zionist is simply someone who supports the creation of the state of Israel. That's all it means. So yes, probably most Jewish people are Zionists, & all Israelis are. Technically anyone who believes Israel has a right to exist is a Zionist. This author doesn't even seem to understand the meaning of the word.

But this term has been co-opted by bigots & Arabic terrorist organizations to be a kind of smear. They'll talk about "Zionist conspiracies," etc. And I've noticed that the term is often mis-used to refer to the far-right wing of Israeli politics (the Israeli neocons, basically). Why? If you're opposed to the Likud party, or expansionist policies, why not just say that? Why misuse the word? IMO, the danger is this: By referring to the far-right as "Zionists", it creates the impression among liberals that "Zionism" itself is bad. And that creates the impression that anyone who is a "Zionist" (supports the creation of Israel), is also bad. And I think that confusion is exactly the point. They're trying to create confusion of meaning to imply that Israel itself has no right to exist.

[EFerrari]

213. The term has a long history of being used as a smear from

within and without the Jewish community.

[Marie26]

220. Agreed.

That's why I don't see why it's necessary to use the term when a better, more descriptive one will do.

[Karmakaze]

267. Your definition is incomplete

Zionism is not just the support of the creation of the state of Israel - it is also the support of that state being solely Jewish in nature. That my friend is bigotry. That would be like the US being solely for whites, or South Africa being solely for blacks. Liberals have fought for DECADES against such bigotry, but suddenly in Israel we are supposed to support the opposite?

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

You consider THAT to be a liberal cause? Israel as a nation state is fatally flawed and should be removed, and a new nation that does not hold bigotry as its foundation should be formed in its place.

[EFerrari]

275. You are, like that author, conflating Zionism, with the opinion

of a radical element.

American Heritage:

Zi·on·ism audio (z-nzm) KEY

NOUN:

A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.

[Karmakaze]

293. Hmm so are you saying Israel is not Jewish?

If you are, then criticism of the nation or wanting to see it dissolved could not possibly be anti-semitism could it?

If you aren't then you must agree that Zionism is about creating a JEWISH state, to the exclusion of Arabs who actually lived there and were (and are) the majority.

Either way, you are wrong.

[Forrest Greene]

209. How About Condemning

...the state of Israel? Not condemning anyone in the world who is Jewish ethnically or religiously, but condemning the actions of the government of the sovereign state of Israel. Can we say Israel, for short?

In the United States, we have been getting a thorough lesson, from the inside, on the importance of our traditional doctrine of the separation of church & state. This perennial discussion provides the same lesson from the outside.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

211. I Agree

I think the problem can be found in the malappropriation of the word Zionism.

[aquart]

223. For what, dear?

Please tell me what WE have the brass balls to condemn them for.

[ThomCat]

251. I admit, it's hypocritical for the US to condemn

any nation for illegal, unethical, and immoral activities. But while we are shouting for better values here we need to stand up for them elsewhere too.

[Forrest Greene]

276. WE Citizens Of The United States, Honey

...who condemn our government's entirely out of proportion actions might well also condemn those of Israel.

[Forrest Greene]

280. Oh, And Sweetie-Pie?

Troll somebody who'll be impressed by it, assuming you can find anyone, 'k? Bye bye!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

215. Gee, I guess there was something wrong...

...with the thousand other times this has been posted.

[aquart]

217. Crawling out from under every possible slimy rock.

What a festival of irrational hate, all cloaked in the most loving humanity, I've been reading these days.

I'M WAITING FOR YOUR BRILLIANT PEACE PLAN.

And pretending that "Zionist" isn't anti-semitic code is disingenuous at best. A Zionist believes Israel has the right to exist.

An anti-Zionist doesn't.

[BillZBubb]

259. Baloney.

I am anti-Zionist when I see the Zionists claiming "greater Israel". I am anti-Zionist when I see the Zionists claiming Jerusalem. I wish Zionists did just limit their belief to Israel's right to exist, but most don't, they want the land. I think Likud is the party of the Zionists. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.

I believe Israel has every right to exist peacefully and unmolested within the pre-1967 borders. Does that make me an anti-Semite?

What bothers me is that people can't seem to disassociate the fact that Israel is just one of many countries, to be treated no better and no worse, from some mythical special-ness.

My peace plan is simple:
1. Israel pulls back to the pre-1967 borders, with no equivocation. If they can work out suitable swap agreements with the Palestinians for small areas of land, that's fine, if not too bad.
2. Palestinians claiming a "right to return" are compensated generously for any loses they suffered in exchange for the "right".
3. A viable Palestinian state is created and gets a huge infusion of help from the USA and Israel to build a growing economy.
4. The USA agrees to come to Israel's assistance if Israel is attacked first by any state in a binding treaty.
5. Israel maintains a powerful, mobile military to deter any such attack.
6. All Arab states wishing to do any business with the United States recognize Israel and begin trade and cultural interaction immediately upon the Israeli pull back. Arab states that refuse lose ALL business and recognition from the US.
7. Israel must understand that for the first year after this move, they will come under attack from the fanatics. They must accept it short term as a price for peace. They should work with the governments where the attacks came from to try and stop them--not respond unilaterally.

[ThomCat]

That seems like a very reasonable plan

And it would never work for exactly that reason. It doesn't coddle the extremists on either side.

[David__77]

269. Israel doesn't have the right to discriminate.

It should ban public and private discrimination on the basis of race, nationality, and religion. It deserves criticism for not doing so.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

295. The Indigenous Arabs Have Full Rights Of Citizenship

In fact I would say a Muslim citizen of Israel of which there are approximately one million have more rights than their counterparts in most Arab countries;he or she can decide to be as secular or religious as he or she wants to be.

Heck, Miss Israel was an Arab.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/294051.stm


She said: "It doesn't matter whether I am an Arab or a Jew, we must prove to the world that we can live together.

"There is no difference between Arabs and Jews, we are all human beings."


That's beautiful.

[David__77]

329. That statement doesn't address my criticism.

Private and public housing and employment and educational discrimination must be outlawed. The private entities holding real estate must not discriminate against non-Jews.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

334. Israeli Arabs Have Full Rights Of Citizenship

eom

[Karmakaze]

343. Wrong

"We thought this would be an opportunity to have for our children," said Iman Kaadan, 33, who, like her husband, speaks fluent Hebrew. "But they didn't take us because we were Arabs."

More than five years after the Kaadans' disappointment, Israel's High Court of Justice stepped in today. Overturning a half-century of policy, practice and entrenched discrimination, the court ruled that Arabs cannot be barred from living in certain types of cooperative communities. Similarly, the court forbade Israelis from establishing exclusively Jewish communities on state land.

<SNIP>

The reaction among Arab Israelis, who account for more than 1 million of Israel's 6 million citizens, was mixed. Although many welcomed the Kaadans' victory, some also saw it as partial. They noted the court's ruling leaves untouched a broad pattern of discrimination against Israeli Arabs, whose villages and towns often suffer from a shortage of public land subsidies.

<SNIP>

The Kaadans live in the exclusively Arab village of Baqa el-Gharbiyya, a scruffy place that lacks sewers, parks, paved roads, sidewalks and decent schools. In the new suburban development of Katzir, on a hilltop five miles to the west, they saw the promise of a better life: red-roofed houses, swimming pool, picture-perfect lawns and clean sidewalks.

http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/realisx.htm

That's after a few seconds of looking, but there is a whole lot more. So much for full rights of citizenship eh?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

345. From Your Own Post

"More than five years after the Kaadans' disappointment, Israel's High Court of Justice stepped in today. Overturning a half-century of policy, practice and entrenched discrimination, the court ruled that Arabs cannot be barred from living in certain types of cooperative communities. Similarly, the court forbade Israelis from establishing exclusively Jewish communities on state land."


It appears that Israel's highest courts are trying to erase the last vestiges of discrimination. America had nearly 250 years of slavery and 100 years of Jim Crow.

[sinkingfeeling]

224. Forgot one...US must veto any UN action against the state of Israel.

[still_one]

233. wonderful hate piece

Here is a response from someone to this hate piece in the comment section of the article. I think it provides a good summary:


"
Wanting to obliterate the Jewish state is something _most_ Jews take personally. When we take stuff like obliteration personally, we generally call it antisemitism, but they can call it anti-Zionism if it makes them feel better. We Zionists understand quite well what the Zionist Entity is and who wants to destroy it.

As for this opener:
>>the discussion of Zionism for what it is -- exactly as we are witnessing right now -- a secular, racist political movement, characterized by expansionism and militarism...blah blah blah...

Oh that is so much bullshit!! Secular, yes, political, yes. Racist and characterized by expansion and militarism? You are projecting here. It is the Arab_Muslim 'state's who fit that description. It is the Islamists, the Jihadists_Islamofascists (what do you want to be called? Anti-Zionists?) It is the anti-Zionist states that characterise that description. It is the anti-Zionist states that are obsessed with race and religion, always on Jihad, always ready to kill for Allah and expand his terrortory.

"The history of Zionist collaboration with fascism is barely touched upon here"

because it is a manufactured story...is why.
The author says: "my intent is...simply to make my point about the obscenity of Zionists now laying claim to the Nazi Holocaust as justification for the Palestinian Holocaust..."
totally unproven! I challenge this author to come up with ONE Zionist who has ever said anything even remotely "justifying" a Palestinian Holocaust...because there isn't a Zionist in the world that believes such nonsense. You don't start out with 800,000 max and end up with 6 million in 60 years and have that be a Holocaust. He claims his point is to point out the obscenity of Zionists. But of course, he doesn't really need to provide any evidence for this, because it is well known that anti-Zionists think Zionists are obscene and of course vice-versa

King Hussein of Jordan killed some 5000 Palestinians in just a few days in September 1970. Between mid-1968 and the end of 1969, some five hundred violent clashes occurred between the Palestinian guerrillas and Jordanian security forces. The Jordanians expelled them! Palestinian militants were driven out to Lebanon. There there was plenty of bloodshed as well, check out Damour.

The article is a propaganda piece. It sucks, frankly. It sucks out loud.
"

[Marie26]

240. Yeah.

I got the image of someone yelling & ranting as I read that thing. Vitriolic in the extreme.

[EFerrari]

250. Paranoid projection is what I got after a few paragraphs. I couldn't

get through the whole thing. It was sort of nauseating.

[Marie26]

301. Me either

Honestly, I only read the first few paragraphs before skimming the rest. That piece just oozed hatred. Reading it kind of made my skin crawl.

[Cameron27]

263. Filth..hateful, brutal filth

There is so much more of that, unfortunately not as blatant, but nonetheless equally reprehensible.

Also unfortunate that so many don't immediately react with outrage to this bilge. It makes me sick to the bone. I can only imagine the hurt and betrayal I'd feel if I were Jewish....and that ain't no hyperbole.

(I'm considering changing my avatar, but will keep it for awhile in the hope that the UN will someday fulfill it's mandate for ALL of humanity...including Israel. I'll see what today brings.)


edited to note that I'm resonding to the huffpo piece listed in the OP

[EFerrari]

266. The thing is, the part always posted in the OP in these threads

seems "familiar" and even reasonable because we have seen our news media deteriorate into a propaganda machine. I wonder how many DUers on these threads actually click through. I didn't the first time and I didn't understand why Ian was upset.

/spelling

[Cameron27]

270. I understand that. n/t

[Marie26]

305. Intentionally so? nt

[Karmakaze]

271. Here is some more hateful, brutal filth for you:

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

[EFerrari]

272. How is posting that useful, in your view?

I suppose we could dig up similar statements from the founders of the United States, let alone Dick Cheney. How is this useful?

[Karmakaze]

285. LOL what a cop out!

Those are direct quotes from many of the most influential Israelis since even before the formation of the state, that make it clear that Zionism is based solely on bigotry, that the state of Israel was built on the lands and bodies of the Palestinians who lived there, and that even today, the belief in many of the most influential Israelis is that Israel must CONTINUE to ethnically cleanse Arabs from Palestine.

How is it useful? Its useful in proving all the bullshit from people like you to be totally WRONG.

[EFerrari]

294. How are you proving that "people like me" are totally "WRONG"?

Careful. You're going to hang yourself right about now. And take your time, because I've got work to get out. But, I will read your response.

[Karmakaze]

306. LOL - I have no need to be careful

So you have no need to try and "caution" me.

I am proving you wrong right here:

sfexpat2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Fri Jul-21-06 04:35 AM
Response to Reply #60
70. Paranoid projection is what I got after a few paragraphs. I couldn't

get through the whole thing. It was sort of nauseating.

Paranoid Projection? Sorry but those quotes prove that it is neither paranoid nor projection - Israel really WAS formed out of the ethnic cleansing of Arabs from lands they had occupied for over a thousand years, and many of the most influential Israeli leaders STILL believe in that ethnic cleansing.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

[The Magistrate]

291. It Would Also, Ma'am, Be Child's Play

To produce similar statements from Arab Nationalist leadership in the Mandatory period, the period of open war around '48, and from various Arab and Palestinian political leaders and movements during the last half of the last century and into the present day. It would demonstrate nothing but that many people are ripe turds, and hate passionately those they feel they have reason to view as their enemies.

One of the things that greatly clouds discussion of this matter is the determination of some to present the ordinary behavior of human beings as some unique horror, unprecendented in history and impossible to find in any other place and time....

[Karmakaze]

297. Well then - DO IT.

Stop blathering on about how you can do it, and just do it. Show me all these quotes of influential Arabs talking about forming a Palestinian state by evicting Jews from their land. Lets see what you have. Put up, or shut up!

[cali]

299. No one is more courteous than

the Magistrate- or fairer. It really burns me to see someone treating him so disgracefully. He often elevates the tone of rancorous debates. You, alas, do the opposite; you debase the tone.

[Name removed]

310. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

308. Just For Starters, Sir

And without bothering to delve deeply into my bookshelves, the speech of Musa Kazzim al'Husseini, Mayor of Jerusalem and father of the future Grand Mufti, who also spoke, at the mass rally kicking off the Abu Musa riots in 1920, exhorted the crowd to purify the land with the blood the blood of Jews, the dogs of the Moslems. The al' Husseinis were the predominant political family among Arab Palestinians at the time, and the man's influence extended well beyond that office.

There really is no point, Sir, to pretending any of this is one sided....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Yes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni

[Karmakaze]

314. Who pretended it was one sided?

What war is EVER one sided. The difference is that the vast majority of the Jews WERE NOT PALESTINIANS - and thus had no right to come to that land and take it from those who lived there.

Of course I would have prefered an ACTUAL quote rather than what appears to be someones "summary" of what he said.

Still, thats ONE (from 1920) - what about all the rest of these quotes you talk about? They should be "child's play" to come up with.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

318. Israel Is Just One Of A Long List Of Occupiers

The Canaanites, the Romans, the Turks have all occupied that land. The Israelis are just the most current occupiers.

(I guess) the Arabs have every right to try and push them off that land and the Israelis have every right to resist though I do hope and (occasionally) pray for more constructive endeavors.

[Andromeda]

341. You are being disgustingly belligerent

and unnecessarily confrontational. There are many people who don't agree with you, including myself, but that's no reason to be so obnoxious and rude.

Try to be more open to reasonable and conciliatory discussion instead of lashing out because that's not going to change anybody's mind and, in fact, will only harden their views against yours.

[Karmakaze]

344. So being called an anti-semite is not confrontational?

Becasue thats what people on this thread have been doing.

[cali]

274. Source please

Some of those quotes have been debunked. Please inform us of the website you got those from.

[Karmakaze]

286. The sources are right there in the quotes.

Now you claim they have been debunked. What is YOUR source?

[oberliner]

313. Fake Hateful Quotes

I am a long time lurker here at DU. I registered today in order to respond to the fake quotes attributed to early Israelis.

Fake Quote #1: "We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

Debunking: Benny Morris, for example, claims in his book The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, that the Israeli leader David Ben Gurion wrote to his son, “We must expel Arabs and take their places,” which fits quite well with the assertion that Israel banished the Palestinians.

But Professor Efraim Karsh, in his book Fabricating Israeli History: The New Historians, refutes this, showing that the Ben Gurion letter actually states the opposite, “We do not wish and do not need to expel Arabs and take their places.” (Karsh, p. 46-51)

Fake Quote #2: "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

This fake quote is generally attributed to "The Koenig Report" as here: resistance.jeeran.com/zionism/quotes.htm
www.middleeast.org/comments/1/2325.shtml
www.uvm.edu/~clittle/hw/palestine.doc

Debunking: MIFTAH’s “Memorable Misquotes” also unforgettably attributes the following to Israel Koenig in the “The Koenig Memorandum”:

We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.

The Koenig Report or “memorandum,” as it is sometimes referred to, was a private document of recommendations written in 1975 by civil servant Israel Koenig, the Interior Ministry’s official in charge of the Galilee, to alter the demographic balance of the region in the favor of the Jews. The recommendations, which included expanding and strengthening Israel’s Jewish presence in the Galilee, applying legal consequences to Arabs expressing hostility toward the state and Zionism, enforcing tax collection from the Arab sector, and other steps, were rejected by then Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and caused great controversy in Israel. As controversial as Koenig’s proposals were, however, there was absolutely no suggestion of using “terror,” “assassination,” “intimidation,” or “land confiscations.”

Fake Quote #3: "There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

Debunking:

Here are Golda Meir's own words about this misquote: I have been charged with being rigidly insensitive to the question of the Palestinian Arabs. I am supposed to have said, ''There are no Palestinians.'' My actual words were: ''There is no Palestinian people. There are Palestinian refugees.'' The distinction is not semantic. My statement was based on a lifetime of debates with Arab nationalists who vehemently excluded a separatist Palestinian Arab nationalism from their formulations.

I repeatedly expressed my sympathy for the needless sufferings of refugees whose abnormal situation was created and exploited by the Arab states as a tactic in their campaign against Israel. However, refugee status could not indefinitely be maintained for the original 555,000 Arabs who in 1948 joined the exodus from the battle areas during the Arab attack on the new state of Israel.

When the refugee card began to wear thin, the terrorists appeared on the scene flourishing not the arguable claims of displaced refugees but of a ghoulish nationalism that could only be sated on the corpse of Israel.

(Jan. 14, 1976)

Source: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE1DC163FF933A0575AC0A966958260

Fake Quote #4: "(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

Debunking: The New York Times article (from April 1, 1988) Blackwell cites for this fraudulent quote begins thus: “As Israel prepared to lift a three-day blockade of the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip, Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir warned today that rioters would be crushed ‘like grasshoppers.’” Yet a few paragraphs and sentences later, we read “But Mr. Shamir, standing atop an ancient West Bank castle, told reporters: ‘Anybody who wants to damage this fortress and other fortresses we are establishing will have his head smashed against the boulders and walls.’”
Shamir was addressing reporters, not settlers.

Source: http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FB0710FC34590C728CDDAD0894D0484D81

Hope that is helpful!

[Cameron27]

323. Thank you oberliner and Marie26

I've been searching for this very evidence but haven't been as successful as the both of you.

Crap posts like that one are popping up everywhere.

[Marie26]

319. Usenet message boards.

Those quotes, in exactly that form, are posted in a million different forums, w/no original source given. This is just cut & pasted from another board, misspellings & all. E.G. http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.iranian/browse_frm/thread/67b1bfa528ad5a97/9f6f15a4b80ea819?lnk=st&q=&rnum=1&hl=en#9f6f15a4b80ea819, http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.islam/browse_frm/thread/73a6eb9cd959bbfa/2abc531ebc171c8d?lnk=st&q=&rnum=2#2abc531ebc171c8d (this particular poster cites to the Stormfront white supremacist forums, where this was apparently widely circulated.)

At least one of these quotes is totally incorrect. This person already did a pretty good job debunking them. http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.islam/browse_frm/thread/73a6eb9cd959bbfa/2abc531ebc171c8d?lnk=st&q=&rnum=2#2abc531ebc171c8d

[jonnyblitz]

288. JEWS AGAINST ZIONISM and JEWS NOT ZIONISTS

www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
www.jewsnotzionists.org

are these anti-semitic hate groups? self-loathers? :shrug:

[Cameron27]

290. Sounds like a radical fundamentalist fringe group

"3) The People of Israel Oppose This For 4 Reasons
FIRST - Because this is diametrically opposed and completely contradictory to the true essence and foundation of the people of Israel, as it explained above. Because the only time that the people of Israel where permitted to have a state were two thousand years ago when the Glory of the Creator was upon us. And likewise in the future when the Glory of the Creator will once more be revealed, and the whole world will serve Him. Then He Himself (without any human effort or force of arms) will grant us a kingdom founded on Divine Service.

I'm not Jewish so I'll let someone more educated in these matters discuss it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

302. Easy

There are a small group of Jews who believe Israel is in contradiction of God's law because according to their interpetation of scripture the coming of the Messiah is a precondition for the establishment of the state of Israel.

They have a right to believe what they want to believe but they are as influential and large as this group:

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/

[Cameron27]

311. Thought as much.....

Crazies in my opinion, but as long as they don't cause harm to anyone, even crazies are entitled to emote.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

315. They Are A Strange Group

Some of them have even emigrated to Israel.

I guess even they can distinguish between God's law and Man's Law.

[sinkingfeeling]

328. Do you recognize the existence of Orthodox Jews? Because that

is what these folks claim to be:

True Torah Jews is a non-profit organization formed by a group of religious Orthodox Jews dedicated to informing the world and the American public and politicians in particular, that the idealogy of Zionism is in total opposition to the teachings of traditional Judaism.

How about any of these?
Satmar Grand Rebbe Joel Teitelbaum Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky Rabbi Y Z Soloveitchik Rabbi Avraham Karelitz Rav Yitzchok Koppelman Rabbi Michael Weissmandl Rabbi Aharon Kotler Rabbi Mordechai Gifter Rabbi Elya Svei Rabbi Baruch Kaplan Rabbi Amram Blau Rabbi Avigdor Miller

Are they legitimate Jewish Rabbis?

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/index.cfm

Also, did you read the bio of Stan Goff? He's a member of Vietnam Veterans Against War, Veterans for Peace, and MFSO.

Why don't you explain Zionism to me? What is it? What is the mission? Why and when did the World Zionist organization begin? What is the Zionist Conference? Is Zionism the 'equal' of Christian fundamentalism?

Just asking questions.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

337. I'm Not An Expert On Judaism Or Zionism

You really need to pose your queries to a theologian.That being said most Orthodox Jews don't oppose the state of Israel.Opinion polls indicate more than ninety percent of American Jews support an independent Jewish homeland in Israel.All religions have sects. Heck, Madonna practices Kaballah which is a form of Jewish mysticism.


To me Zionism simply means the Jews should have a homeland in Israel;nothing more and nothing less.


No, Zionism is a quasi political , quasi religious movements. Fundamentalists of any religion believe in the inerrancy of their religious text.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

298. You Keep Posting It

Here's a link to a small group of Jews who believe they can simultaneously be Christians and Jews.


http://www.jewsforjesus.org/


Every group has their subgroups. That's Sociology 101.

[DemFromMem]

340. Yes and yes

I've yet to meet an anti-Zionist Jew who was an active member of a synagogue, a volunteer for Jewish organizations or in any other way involved in the Jewish community. Actually, I've net met an anti-Zionist Jew and I am extremely involved in the Jewish community both locally and as the board member of a major national Jewish organization.

But I suppose they're out there. I have heard, for example, of ultra-religious Jewish groups that supposedly call for the end of the Israeli state (basically turning the country over to the Arabs) because they believe the Messiah must come before the Jews should get a homeland.

One thing about my fellow Jews - they revel in being opinionated and the more outrageous the better. What better way to piss off your parents than calling for the end of the Jewish homeland? Dating non-Jews just doesn't do it anymore. This is right up there with joining Jews for Jesus on the scale of what will get you uninvited to the family seder :-).

[thinkingwoman]

320. "It sucks out loud."

Yup. It sure does.

[Marie26]

312. Dear God

HOW many times will this be re-posted?

[thinkingwoman]

322. Don't waste brain cells counting

Propaganda is always repeated until otherwise intelligent and thoughtful people give in and start believing.

[Name removed]

325. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thinkingwoman]

326. The definition of propaganda is straightforward

And personal attacks such as the one posted by you say everything about the attacker and nothing about the victim.

[jonnyblitz]

324. it must suck for those of you who want to control the info to spin

everything a certain way. free speech sucks sometimes, eh? :rofl: :rofl:

[Marie26]

327. Wrong

I don't want to control anything. But one when article is re-posted about 8 times, you've got to wonder what the agenda is. IMO this article is propaganda, & like any good propaganda, it needs to be spread far & wide to get an audience.

[cool user name]

330. Please see this link ...

regarding the media's role in the conflict:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x137194

Entitled:

Peace, Propaganda, and the Promised Land

It's pretty good.

[Marie26]

331. Now THAT looks worthwhile. nt

[Hoping4Change]

349. Excellent read. Thanks for posting.

:thumbsup:

[Lithos]

350. Locking

I think it now inappropriate to revisit the vitriol and emotion in this thread.

Lithos
DU Moderator