On why "single shared Country "is out -"Islamists target Morocco's Jews"

[papau]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/alqaida/story/0,12469,1042072,00.html

Islamists target Morocco's Jews

Giles Tremlett Monday September 15, 2003 The Guardian

Violent Islamists have murdered two members of Morocco's shrinking Jewish community in the past four days and look set to drive out most of the remaining members of a community whose history stretches back centuries. The stabbing to death of 75-year-old Elie Afrat as he left his house in Meknes, 90 miles east of Rabat, to go to the synagogue on Saturday has finally shattered what the Moroccan authorities had always held up as a model of coexistence between Muslims and Jews. The killing of Mr Afrat, one of just 120 Jews left in Meknes, came two days after a similar murder in Casablanca. On that occasion the victim was Albert Revivo, 55, a timber trader in the city's Lakria market. <snip>

...on May 16...A series of suicide bombings that day, which killed 45 people in Morocco's first experience of Islamist terror, also targeted a restaurant in the city owned by a Moroccan Jew.
Serge Berdugo, general secretary of Morocco's Jewish association, said: "These are all acts of terrorism aimed against us, and through us against all Morocco." A Jewish woman told the Spanish newspaper El Pais yesterday: "We must leave, not just for own security but for that of our children. What future do have left if they must live in hiding?"

Although Morocco's monarchs, including the current king, have traditionally sworn to protect the country's Jews, the community has fallen from 350,000 to 3,500 in half a century...Jews ...have been present in the Maghreb since the synagogue at Djerba, Tunisia, was founded around 586BC.....The Jewish community in Tunisia, reduced from 100,000 to 2,000 in 50 years, has also been attacked. The Djerba synagogue was attacked by a suicide bomber who killed 21 people in April 2002.

[drdon326]

1. Stop me before i

:puke:

[Darranar]

2. So extremists are killing more innocents around the world...

I strongly condmen these acts and all other acts by extremists against innocent people. But,you see, I condemn ALL acts, not just the ones done by "islamists".

[Muddleoftheroad]

3. Yes, but this explains why Jews need their own nation

And you seem to be missing that point.

They need to have one place where this doesn't happen or, if it does, something will be done.

[Resistance]

4. that is no excuse to ethnically cleanse

the people who are already living on the land

[Muddleoftheroad]

8. When that happens let me know

But since it hasn't, let's move on.

[durutti]

5. Ridiculous

Zionism itself is the main cause of anti-Semitism in the Muslim world. Prior to the rise of Zionism, Jews were generally treated much better in Islamic countries than they were in the West.

Furthermore, there are thousands of ethnic groups in the world. Almost all of them have been persecuted at one time or another. Do you honestly think they all should get their own nations? I don't think there's that much area on the planet.

Zionism, to me, is a coward's solution. It says: rather than facing the problems Jews encounter in Gentile society and working to rectify them, segregate yourselves. Isolate yourselves. Have the Armenians ever needed a state? The Roma (gypsies)?

Still, I have no objection in principle to persecuted Jews of a country deciding to form their own state. I do have an objection to Jews of a hundred other countries going to another country, kicking the native inhabitants of their land, and there creating an ethnically-exclusive state.

[Fight_n_back]

7. HaHaHaHaHa

thank you giving Jews the power to make people hate them.

Tell me, why does the Klan hate black poeple? Is it because they are shiftless?

As far as an ethinically exclusive state, where did the Jews make one of those?

[rini]

11. some posters on DU

seem to not know for hatred to exist; all that is necessary is the object of that hatred to be breathing. No other reason.

[durutti]

18. Israel is Exclusive

thank you giving Jews the power to make people hate them.

Tell me, why does the Klan hate black poeple? Is it because they are shiftless?

Ah, distorting the argument. The only way Zionists know how to debate.

I didn't say that Muslim anti-Semitism was justified by Zionism. I said that Muslim anti-Semitism was far less prevalent prior to the rise of Zionism. Muslims and Arabs became more anti-Semitic in response to the suffering they've endured at the hands of Zionists.

Of course, the fact that certain behavior might encourage bigoted attitudes shouldn't discourage anyone from anything per se. But one of the state goals of Zionists is to save Jews from the scourge of anti-Semitism. Yet Zionism has increased anti-Semitism -- so obviously, Zionism hasn't worked.

Zionists claim that Jews will never be accepted in Gentile society, despite any individual initiative. This is a racist attitude. Zionists, not anti-Zionists, are the real self-hating Jews.

As far as an ethinically exclusive state, where did the Jews make one of those?

exclusive, adj.: Excluding or tending to exclude

Certainly, a state in which the vast majority of land cannot legally be sold to non-Jews, where city planning is conducted in such a way as to deliberately segregate non-Jews, where non-Jews must wait longer to earn their citizenship, where non-Jews are by and large excluded from the military and thus social services, where politicians openly advocate ethnic cleansing, where minorities are disproportionately impoverished, where whole villages that have existed for a century or more go unrecognized because of their inhabitants, where minorities get the worst schools and worst of the few services they get in the first place, and where a Jew who's never been to Palestine can "return" there, but an Arab who was born there cannot, qualifies as ethnically exclusive.

[Muddleoftheroad]

9. Coward's solution

Nice. Cowards.

Lots of respect for six million dead just during WWII. What about the pogroms in Russia and elsewhere. Or the Inquisition? Or France during WWII? What about Morocco today? Or France today? Or Germany today? Or all of the Arab world today?

The only place where Jews have been treated half decently on a consistent basis has been the U.S., but we all know that could change. Based on the nature of these threads, perhaps sooner than I realize.

As to your objections, they are literally history. Israel exists and the sooner its opponents accept that, the sooner we will have peace there.

[Violet_Crumble]

14. You've never explained that theory of yrs...

The only place where Jews have been treated half decently on a consistent basis has been the U.S., but we all know that could change.

Explain exactly how things could change in the US so it'd turn into a place of pogroms and extermination camps, and try to do it without implying that people here who disagree with yr views on the I/P issue are anti-semitic....

Violet...

[durutti]

21. Argue this issue long enough

And take a pro-Palestinian position -- no matter how mild -- and sooner or later, someone will insinuate that you're an anti-Semite, even if you're Jewish.

[The Magistrate]

55. Mr. Durruti, Sir

The Armenians have a state today. They are rather fond of it, and have fought extensively with Azerbaijan over its precise boundaries, which fightinmg was triggered by extensive killings of Armenians within certain enclaves of the latter state. Armenia was initially reonstituted in the early days of Soviet power, as a republic under the U.S.S.R., and widely hailed by the Armenian people, as a salvation from centuries of murder at the hands of the Turk. Prior to the Ottoman and earlier submergences, Armenia had been a substantial kingdom in the region, dating back to the days of the old Persians of classical times at least.

The Roma might well benefit from a state, although none is likely to be provided them: they are themselves a little unsure about precisely where they originated.

The idea that persecuted minorities should face up to their problems in getting along with the predominant groups that treat them so poorly has a comedic air in this discussion.

[Muddleoftheroad]

26. I don't think all those who dislike Israel are anti-semites

But how many does it take? How many did it take to scapegoat Jews in Nazi Germany?

This is one area that the extreme left and right agree on -- they don't like Israel and some of them don't like Jews. Maybe it won't happen in America, but it has happened all around the globe thus far. And even America has not always been a shining beacon to people who are Jewish.

They have one such beacon -- Israel.

[Violet_Crumble]

44. You implied many at DU are...

Plus yr comment about the US being the only place that's treated Jews halfway decently is totally incorrect. Just for a start, what about Australia and New Zealand?

How many anti-semites did it take to scapegoat Jews in Nazi Germany? I don't really know, but what I do know is that anti-semitism was virulent and widespread there even before the Nazis came to power...

Just a little tangent on the tangent about the slave trade. I think you've taken the lower end of deaths at the time, and the more realistic figure is probably somewhere between yr and newyorican's figures. But what do numbers have to do with anything? Does that mean if an ethnic group only numbers less than a million in its entirety and gets wiped out or are victims of systematic and long-term persecution, it's not as important as when it happens to a larger group?

Violet...

[Equinox]

17. Muddleoftheroad

Lots of respect for six million dead just during WWII.

As far as I can tell, those six million didn't steal land. Zionists do much more harm with regard to respect of people of the Holocaust with their attempting to create another one.

[durutti]

20. Yes, a coward's solution

Lots of respect for six million dead just during WWII. What about the pogroms in Russia and elsewhere.

There are many Jews who survived the Holocaust who don't and wouldn't want to live in Israel.

Don't invoke the memory of the Holocaust to defend Zionism. Zionists came to the DP camps and roughed up (and in some cases killed) Jews in order to scare them into coming to Israel. The Stern Gang even advocated an alliance with the Nazis Where their respect for the victims of the Holocaust?

Furthermore, American Zionists worked long and hard to make sure the number of Jewish refugees the Allies took in was extremely limited. They let millions die for their agenda.

What about the pogroms in Russia and elsewhere.

Vladimir Jabotinsky, founder of Revisionist Zionism, allied himself closely with the Ukrainian pogromist Petlyura.

And in the "elsewhere" column, you can place the bombs Israeli agents set off at Jewish community centers in Iraq in the 1950s.

What about Morocco today?...Or all of the Arab world today?

Your ideological bretheren came to Palestine, kicked peasants of their land, took it over, massacred scores of Arabs, and sent 700,000 fleeing for their lives. Had this not happened, the Arab world probably wouldn't act so irrationally towards Jews today.

Or France today? Or Germany today?

Anti-Semitism is not majority sentiment in France or Germany. To mention them in the same paragraph as the Arab countries is absurd.

What about the United States today? What about Britain today? What about all of Latin and South America? What about Canada? What about the many other countries where Jews can live free from persecution?

And what about the Armenians? The Kurds? The Roma? Where are their respective states? Why is their suffering less important than that of the Jews?

And I accept that Israel exists today, and that its people deserve to live in security. Thus, I think Israel has a right to exist. I just don't think that that right is a moral right.

[papau]

24. Jews were generally treated much better in Islamic countries -BERBERS?

These myths do fly about don't they.

Actuarlly - to a minor degree - it is true the Christian Countries have at times been very evil - to the point one could say they were "worse" than Muslim Countries.

One could say that - but it would discussing a very minor difference in Evil. Go to France and check out the Berber community in Paris - and note the folks trying to recover their Jewish roots. Listen to their stories of Arab kindness toward Jews - or if you like - toward Berbers.

[Astarho]

45. Imazighen and Jews

While there have been Jewish Berbers (the Kahina being the most famous), the Berbers disputes with the Arabs are different then those of the Jews.

The Imazighen were the indiginous people of North Africa, and fought hard against the Arabs when they came, as they had a culture and languages of their own, only accepting Islam in the late 8th century. They have been resisting "Arabization" since then, although much of the North African population does have some Berber roots even if they consider themselves Arabs.

If anything the Berber situation is closer to that of the Palestinians, the indiginous people resisting the immigrants (and in their eyes invaders).

[varun]

33. have you heard of Pakistan?

<<Furthermore, there are thousands of ethnic groups in the world. Almost all of them have been persecuted at one time or another. Do you honestly think they all should get their own nations?>>

Pakistan was carved out of India, because the Muslims felt they could not live with the Hindus.

[Violet_Crumble]

43. That partition didn't happen because of persecution...

It happened out of expediency and political reasons. By the time the British had finished with their divide et impara tactics, people who had lived together for centuries and had a common history probably did feel like they couldn't live with each other (and this sentiment wasn't solely felt by the Muslims as you claim). The partition of India is another example of partition causing incredible damage and bloodshed...

Violet...

[Gimel]

47. If they remember

Prior to the rise of Zionism, Jews were generally treated much better in Islamic countries than they were in the West.

Turkey is an Islamic nation. Their genocide of 1.5 million Armenians is remembered:

Perhaps if turkey was punished at the time by the "civilized world", the Armenian Genocide would not have become a blueprint or instruction manual for the Jewish Holocaust, the Somalian massacres, the massacres in Sumgait and Baku, massacres in Kosovo, and perhaps the turkish Genocide one day.
http://armenians.com/Genocide/index-main.html

It seems that a Moslem nation invented genocide.

[dai]

51. genocide...

It seems that a Moslem nation invented genocide.

Sure. But only if you discount the "Indian removal" policies of Spain, the European colonies, and the United States - including sterilization, forced removal, and massacres. All of which occurred centuries earlier.

[IndianaGreen]

10. Jews already have such a country where we are truly free from terror

it is the United States of America!

[GabysPoppy]

12. Truly free from terror?

In NYC most synagogues are preparing for the holiday season with security issues being near the top of things to be done. The NYC police department also will be instituting policies reflecting the possibility of potential dangers.

La Shana Tova

[durutti]

22. And This Proves What?

Yes, some Nazi assholes could attack a synagogue. That doesn't mean that the U.S. (NYC especially!) isn't a safe place for Jews.

I know a group that has much greater security concerns -- Arab Americans. And they're a favorite target of one of the most fervently Zionist groups in the U.S., the Jewish Defense League.

[Muddleoftheroad]

13. Based on history

All those places where Jews are a minority sooner or later turn against them. There were a lot of Jews in Germany before WWII as well.

[durutti]

19. Magical Thinking

[durutti]

23. Wonderful Logic

There were lots of Jews in Germany before World War II.
During World War II, many Jews were killed.
Therefore, wherever there are lots of Jews, lots of Jews will get killed.

If there are lots of Jews in a place and they don't get killed... then it's just a matter of time until it happens.

[lumpy]

29. "All those places where Jews are a minority, etc..."

Why do countries turn against Jews ?

[varun]

32. not in India

Jews have lived in India for thoudands of years...without any persecution. Most of them moved to Israel after the creation of Israel, and obly a few thousands are living in India now.

[Gimel]

15. With quotas

How many Jewish immigrants accepted this year?

[Gimel]

48. The great USA

A refuge for the forgotten, the hungry the poor of the world. Come to American and live in a Jewish ghetto.

[Darranar]

49. What are you talking about?

n/t

[Equinox]

16. African Americans and other minorities are killed

from racial hatred in the US every year. Do they each get their own nation?

What needs to happen is a crackdown on these religious wackos who have no regard for life whatsover.

[Muddleoftheroad]

27. Jews have been kill al around the globe for thousands of years

Do you deny that?

[Equinox]

28. Nope...

but so have many other people. Sorry to burst your bubble.

[Muddleoftheroad]

30. Not on the same scale

The level of abuse, murder and persecution is unrivaled for its duration and worldwide scale. Even I, as an African-American descendant of slaves can see that.

[Equinox]

31. Puuuuleeeezzzz.....

Spare me.

[Muddleoftheroad]

36. Care to elaborate?

nt

[Equinox]

46. No!

[newyorican]

37. A rough estimate...

how many died during the Middle Passage?

[Muddleoftheroad]

38. No one knows

But I've seen estimates of about two million lives. It was horrific.

But getting back to my point. The horrors inflicted on the Jewish people have even been worse and lasted two thousand years and have spanned the globe. No group has undergone such long-term abuse, nor such a worldwide extended assault.

[newyorican]

39. No one knows exactly...

but anyone interested enough to read a little about the Middle Passage would know that estimates range from 20 to 40 million, *at least*. I would think that someone with enough self-awareness to refer to themselves as an, "African-American descendant of slaves", would know this topic a little better. Not that I'm saying you're misrepresenting or anything...

Although there is no way to compute exactly how many people perished, it has been estimated that between thirty and sixty million Africans were subjected to this horrendous triangular trade system and that only one third-if that-of those people survived...'

- DR. JOHN HENRICK CLARKE

[Muddleoftheroad]

40. No, I wildly disagree on your numbers

The numbers you cite outnumber the estimates for total slaves brought to America, which my reading indicates to be about 10 million.

Anyone can take a top-end figure and extrapolate from there. I have always thought that number to be ridiculous. One added point is that NO ONE survived the slavery system until the Civil War. EVERYONE died a slave. So perhaps that is the difference here. I can't say.

But we are heading down a tangent. An interesting one to me perhaps, but a tangent nonetheless.

[Herschel]

56. I applaud you, my friend

It is refreshing to see you speak for Israel in spite of the unfortunate tension between the Jewish and African-American communities.

[cherryperry]

58. Remember when I felt I could no longer take the

hatred here and I PM'd my appreciation for your having the fortitude to stick it out? You responded that it is for those of us who just couldn't take it that you would stay and fight.

Now, upon finding a new moderator, I have dared to return and I still find you here.

You bring tears to my eyes.

I wish I could meet you and we could hug and talk in person...

God bless you!

:loveya: :pals:

[durutti]

6. Most Palestinians Are Not Islamists

They are Muslims, but not Islamists. The PLO is entirely secular. The policy of the PLO since 1964 has been to establish a secular, democratic state of Palestine. Furthermore, Jews would be allowed to live in this state, provided they live as equals, not as "settlers". Arafat has even appointed an anti-Zionist Orthodox Rabbi to serve as Minister of Jewish Affairs.

Still, you're right in pointing out that things could get ugly while passions are still inflamed. This is why we need a two-state solution before one state can be seriously considered.

[papau]

25. First time agreed? :-) The PA is not Islamist - Hamas is Islamist

as are the other non government militia groups - but the PA is not.

Indeed that may be the only reason there is a slight chance of a 2 state solution.

Meanwhile Bush is cutting down aid to Israel dollar for dollar spent on settlements - but NOT Cutting down aid for money spent on the wall - albeit Sharon has to not grab the Ar'il land (the border there will be a few miles of patrols - but no wall) via a wall. And that is a a good!

:-)

[StandWatie]

34. Israel already has Muslims

and it doesn't go just one way, Jews kill them to.

Are you down with expelling all the current Muslims and if not what difference would it make if they made up more than the 20% of the population that they do now?

[newyorican]

35. That's strange...

When I click on the link, I don't see an article titled, "On why "single shared Country "is out -"Islamists target Morocco's Jews". I do see an articled titled, "Islamists target Morocco's Jews".

Bad link or poetic license?

[papau]

41. Only in BN is the post title identical - here you also get my comment!

Not that you must agree with my comment - even agree that the comment is a fair interpretation of the story--

free speech and all that.

But There were a couple of Jews get shit on outside of Israel stories that day - so the title to this post reflects my thought when I posted it -

I should have parend'd my thought though - I errored as it does read as if my thought was part of article title - but then most titles of posts in IP are folks thought - and not a media title repetition.

[newyorican]

42. not exactly...

The subject heading for threads must contain the title of the source article. The only exception is when you must shorten long titles or to make the subject of the article more clear. Editorializations and comments are to be saved for the Message body and be separate and distinct from the text of the article.

[papau]

50. When is "make more clear" not an opinion - in someones view?

But you are correct - simply spinning in the title is flaming and should not be allowed.

I do not think I did that - but I can see how it could be interpreted that way.

I will tone down my "make more clear" comments!

:toast:

:-)

[wellst0nev0ter]

52. *Imagines Israel 20 Years Later*

It wouldn't matter, if the status quo is maintained, Israel will become an Arab country anyways.

[Darranar]

53. Do you think it will be mantained?

There's a little word known as "genocide" that is whirring around in many extremist Israelis' heads.

[wellst0nev0ter]

54. I Don't Think Genocide Would Be Pragmatic

Transfer is now widely favored, but I'm not sure how that's going to pan out without the international community taking note.

In any case, it certainly validates what this guy says.

[cherryperry]

57. Hello, fellow Wellstoner!

FYI, the international community has been taking Israel's inventory since its inception and it has NEVER been of any support since the State of Israel was just barely voted into being by the U.N.