Let me take you back to 1945

[question everything]

WWII just ended and the prisoners of the Nazi concentration camps were liberated.

(If you are a Holocaust denier, please stop right here, do not read any further and do not post. Thank you)

Jews were not the only prisoners, of course. Homosexuals, Jehovah Witnesses, Gypsies, and the "garden variety" of partisans and POWs.

But Jews were the only ones that were sent there en mass, as whole families and cities. Before they were sent there, they were rounded up in ghettos, stripped of any property and jobs.

While many of the prisoners had some hope of going home to friends and families, the Jews did not have any. Whatever they had and whoever they knew before the rise of the Nazis were gone.

They were looking for family members and friends who left Europe before the war. Many were in this country but many also were in what was then called Palestine.

What would you do with the Jews, then?

Ever since I joined DU and, I suspect, ever since it opened, many here, who would have compassion for any underdog group across the globe would not have any for the Jews. For the Jews of 1945 as so many still speak against the Balfour declaration of 1917 and against the establishment of the State of Israel.

What would you do with the Jews, then?

The Jews who came to Palestine did not uproot anyone. They either purchased land or settled on land than no body wanted: arid or swamps.

Before WWI that whole area now known as the Middle East was part of the Ottoman Empire. After the British won they arbitrarily drew border lines, including the one for Iraq where they put three tribes with known animosity together in one country. And for good measure they tore away the oil rich province of Kuwait.

In 1947 the UN voted to partition the land between Arabs and Jews. The Arabs would not accept it and attacked Israel. The mighty armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq. And yet, Israel, population 70,000, with not much of an army won the war, its war of Independence and ended up with more land than was drawn by the partition plan. No peace treaty was signed then, only cease fires which left the final borders to be determined once peace treaties were signed.

Around 1950 Trans Jordan (as it was called then) took over the West Bank territories, and Egypt took over Gaza. As far as I know only two countries recognized this: Britain and Pakistan. But I did not hear anyone here complaining about this annexation. While Jordan granted Jordanian citizenship to the people residing of the West Bank, Egypt did not do so, leaving them in limbo.

What would you do with the Jews, then?

In 1967 Egypt first kicked the UN forces that sat at the border between Israel and Egypt and then blockaded the Straits of Tiran - an act of war recognized worldwide.

Israel waited three week, hoping for diplomatic actions that never materialized, and then it attacked Egypt. Jordan and Syria decided to join the festivities and Israel won over all three and took land.

Israel made a lot of mistakes handling these territories following that war and many more during the next 40 years and this can be debated, has been debated.

But what I don't understand is the hatred for the Jews, disguised as anti-Israel that has been on these pages in the last week by those who question the whole existence of the State of Israel.

Yes, the Arabs should not have "paid" for the Nazi's atrocities, but the Jews did not take their country. There was no country there, it was not anyone's. It was part of the Ottoman Empire and the British (and French) mandates, given by the League of Nations, was to administer the area, including "securing the establishment of the Jewish national home", and "safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine".

For the many DUers who think that Israel should have never been established in Palestine, I am asking, again:

This is 1945, the prisoners of the Nazi concentration camps have just been liberated. What would you do with the Jews, then?

[annabanana]

1. (You might get asked for some links for this:)

"The Jews who came to Palestine did not uproot anyone. They either purchased land or settled on land than no body wanted: arid or swamps."

[question everything]

9. Will Wikipedia work as a start?

The first wave of modern immigration to Israel, or Aliyah (עלייה) started in 1881 as Jews fled persecution, or followed the Socialist Zionist ideas of Moses Hess and others of "redemption of the soil". Jews bought land from Ottoman and individual Arab landholders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

16. I have no problem with this citation

but kindly look at the date. I believe the Jews that settled in Palestine prior to the fall of the Ottomans didn't have the problems that came later. I had also heard that Palestinian lands were confiscated after WWII by incoming European Jews, but this is heresay; if you have evidence to refute it, I'd be delighted to see it.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

2. Take religion out of politics: Carve off a piece of Germany for the Jews

As punishment for Germany's role in the Holocaust (and the general horrors of WWII), I believe that a section of Germany should have been given to the Jews as a Jewish state.

It would have been just punishment for Germany
It would have provided a Jewish homeland
It would have kept the Muslims and Jews separated
And the Palestinians wouldn't have lost their land.

:shrug:

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

24. Question Everything: What about this answer to your question?

See post directly above.

[Retired AF Dem]

26. I have spent twenty years of my life living in Germany

both in the military and staying there after I retired. I never thought of this even though I have visited several of the old concentration camps. I think you have brought up one of the best ideas I have ever heard of.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

32. Thanks. I have long wondered why this option wasn't addressed....

Unless the idea of a safe homeland is totally trumped by religion.

[davidwparker]

36. God gave the land to the Jews. Then, He brought them back.

No other land will do and world events made it possible for them to reclaim the land.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

42. Again: Take religion OUT of politics. nt

[manic expression]

57. God gave your house to me

I'll be moving in next week. Thanks.

:eyes:

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

58. LOL

:spray:

[sabbat hunter]

70. severa; questions

1) so you dont believe in israels right to exist?
2) dont jews have just as much right to live in what is now israel near their holy city of jerusalem?
3) palestinians also lost land from the palestinian mandate to jordan. do you think that jordan should be wiped out and replaced by a "greater palestine"

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

72. Answers:

1)I believe that the Jewish people could have had their own country carved from Germany. Call it Israel or whatever but it would be their own country

2)The holy city stuff is putting religion back into politics. Take the religion out of the equation and just deal in logic.

3)I confess my ignorance on the palestinian mandate issue to jordan and have no opinion.

My point was simply that the Jewish people were wronged in WWII by Germany. Germany should have been punished for what they did by having to lose half their land permanently to the Jews. It would have been just payment with the added bonus of keeping the Jewish state and the Muslim countries separated.

Dealing in logic here not religious arguments.

[originalpckelly]

3. You really think people on DU are Holocaust deniers?

WTF is wrong with you? This is by far the most offensive thing I have seen posted on DU...ever.

[karlrschneider]

6. Woah.

Be careful with that, just sayin'...
:eyes:

[Lost-in-FL]

7. I agree with you and this is getting too fucking old

It's been over 55 years of the same shit.

None of the sides WANT PEACE!!

[question everything]

12. One or two may be

These days I do not put anything beyond any DUer.

And how sad that his is the only point that you got from the post

[k_jerome]

14. how about this from another thread?

The God of Abraham repeatedly instructs his people to genocide.

[Wonk]

18. Weren't you the one who posted it? nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

20. LOL

[k_jerome]

22. no, but i have cited it several times as an example of the

pervasive vitriol toward Israel I have seen today.

I will not say who posted it. I am not sure if they would be ashamed or not.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

23. You do realize of course...

That "the God of Abraham" refers to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam?

Of course you do.

[k_jerome]

27. it was specifically used to reference Jews, however...

feel free to justify it at your leisure.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. Well then how about you provide the context?

Link it.

Seeing as how I ran a search for the phrase and the only thing I'm coming up with is this thread, I'm a bit skeptical.

[k_jerome]

35. the context is Israel calling for the destruction of Muslim nations...

the author quoted biblical verses as examples of the genocidal tendencies of Jews.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

37. I guess I didn't make myself clear.

Link the thread where you saw it or provide a direct quote or we'll have to assume you're just making it up.

[k_jerome]

38. assume away.

i must admit, i feel no fear about you not making yourself clear to me or if you assume what you wish to. goodnight.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

44. See now...

if you want to just make shit up and bash DUers, well I respect your right to.

But why do it here?

[k_jerome]

47. it is within your rights to form that opinion.

however, i will not link to statements i feel are anti-semitic.

most of the bashing i have seen has been against those that support Israel. I have not seen you come to their defense. If i do not link to the post, i have bashed no DU'er. If I do, I have.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. Oh, you won't link anti-semitic statements.

You'll just "repeat" them.

:eyes:

"most of the bashing i have seen has been against those that support Israel."

:rofl:

[k_jerome]

52. correct. nt.

[AnOhioan]

71. Agreed....this guy is just priceless n/t

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

40. I've never thought the Jews wanted to destroy the Muslims

any more than they wished to destroy Christians. Jews have been an oppressed minority for too long. I understand why they wish the type of state they have, because of the repression they have suffered for so long. The difficulty comes when one tries to figure out how to give non Jews some representation without giving them the power (if they would become the majority)to destroy the Jewish faith.

[barb162]

65. I'd say that qualifies

[eallen]

4. There are a couple of factual errors in your comments.

Let me answer your question. What the allies should have done was two things. First, ensure that Jews would be safe in the newly conquered Germany and Italy and other nations that had oppressed them prior to WW II. Second, the allied nations should have opened their doors to every Jew who wanted to immigrate. We should have provided legal entry and transportation to every Jew who wanted to come here. It is to US and UK shame that they did not do that.

But your two factual errors need to be addressed. First, relatively few European Jews had family in Israel in 1945. Second, there were people displaced by the creation of Israel. That needn't be a cause of unending war. If it weren't for the religious element of the Middle East conflict, it might have since been settled. But it is a fact, and the religious aspect has festered that wound.

[SoCalDem]

5. Invite them to settle in the US and the UK

but wait... true anti-semitism prevented that (Google "St.Louis Jews")..

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. Oh, well it's all so simple than.

You lost me at:

"Ever since I joined DU and, I suspect, ever since it opened, many here, who would have compassion for any underdog group across the globe would not have any for the Jews."

[Generator]

34. I agree with that sentence

I'm finding it hard between this extreme and the "we must vote for Hilary" because she's a Democrat that the site exists for. It does exist to get Democrats elected. It serves as a forum for many people I agree with and do not. However, Israel is DESPISED by more far Left or whatever you would call it. Far left seems like a label. I don't know. I agree with the far left on some things. On this, I do not. They will let many Arab crimes give a pass but Israel is evil incarnate. I'm growing to find the Left that's represented by the majority of Du'ers as simplistic and reactionary as anything you see on Fox News. It sounds the same. Simplistic screaming of KILLING INNOCENTS and dead baby pictures that this ilk LOVE. I want the killing to stop. But I don't think Hezbollah is innocent and that much of what I see here is bias. YES, we get it. Innocents die in war. Stop war. But Israel cannot just stop trying to kill terrorists and their weapons or eventually they will cease to exist. Bias ingrained by the Left that has hated Israel for years and hates it even MORE now, because it's supported by our own evil empire. I listen to Democracy Now and it sounds like propaganda to me. I stay away from this fight because I hate it. It's complicated. It's not simple. Screaming STOP killing is simple. But it takes two to tango.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

41. Ah, an attack on liberal democrats.

Not terribly surprised.

[jonnyblitz]

55. the far left ,which i guess is everybody that doesn't agree with you

DESPISES WAR! HOW does hating war equate with despising Israel? If Israel would stop blowing up the whole fucking Middle East we wouldn't be critcizing!! ITS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE! Criticizing Israel DOES NOT MEAN supporting HEZBOLLAH!! you guys use the same arguing techniques as the fucking Bush people when they try to shut debate down! "if you are against bush ,you are for the terrorist". People are getting sick of this shit!!

[Jim Sagle]

68. I guess you can't handle the truth.

[catnhatnh]

10. You make sense,and ask germane questions.....

and in most situations I tend to find myself supporting Israel.Sadly, this time I do not....Like them as I may I cannot support 10-1 kill ratios and the destruction of a fairly stable mixed populace's country's (Lebanon)infrastructure....they have their neocons and we have our own-both need to be muzzled ASAP-we will both have some apologies to make and will need a LONG time to live down our actions....

[bloom]

11. It's really ludicrous to think

that nobody was living in what is now Israel in 1910, 1920, 1930, 1940.... "The Jews who came to Palestine did not uproot anyone."

And I guess you think that Balfour was lying when he said, "In Palestine, we do not even propose to consult the inhabitants of the country and (Zionism's) immediate needs and hopes for the future are much more important than the desires and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who presently inhabit Palestine.


I wish people would stop lying about this. It's one thing to defend Israel - it's another thing to defend it with lies. I realize that many Jewish people are taught such things - it doesn't make them true.

Read your own Zionists. They knew.

[question everything]

21. Balfour certainly made conflicting promises to different parties

but the question, again, is what would you have done with the survivors of the Concentration Camps in 1945? No country wanted them and most did have families in Palestine.

[bloom]

64. The US certainly should have been more open to the Jewish population.

According to Chomsky in 1992 -

(someone posted this here):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1678564

They (United States) didn't act to save Jews, and they could have in many respects. The role of the Zionist organization is not very pretty either. In the late 1940s there were plenty of displaced persons in the Jewish DP camps. Some survived. It remained awful, they stayed in the DP camps, in fact, for a while they were dying at almost the same rate they were under the Nazis. Many of those people, if they had been given a chance, surely would have wanted to come to the United States. There are debates about how many, but it's just unimaginable that if they'd been given a chance they wouldn't have wanted to come here. They didn't. A tiny scattering came. There was an immigration bill, the Stratton bill, which I think admitted about 400,000 people, if I remember, to the United States, very few Jews among them. Plenty of Nazis, incidentally, straight out of their SS uniforms. The reason that bill passed, I think it was 1947, was that it was the beginning of the Cold War and priority was being given to basically the Nazis, because we were resurrecting them all over the world, a lot of them were brought in, a lot of Nazi war criminals, and others, but very few Jews. That's not a very pretty sight. You say, during the war you could have given some argument, not an acceptable argument, but you could have given at least a not ridiculous argument that you had to fight the war and not worry about the people being sent to the gas chambers, but after the war you couldn't give any argu- ment. It was a matter of saving the survivors, and we didn't do it. I should say the Zionist organization didn't support it either, they didn't even lobby for the bill. The only Jewish organizations that lobbied for the admission of Jewish refugees to the United States were the non-Zionist or the anti-Zionist organizations. The reason was that they wanted to send them off to Palestine. Whether they wanted to go there or not is another story, the same matter being relived today, incidentally, with the Russian emigres. The Zionist organization wants to force them to go to Israel. Most of them, especially from the European parts of Russia, want to come to the United States, and all sorts of pressures are being brought to bear to prevent that. It's kind of a reenactment at a less hideous level of the same story. I suppose there's some element of guilt, certainly over the Holocaust and maybe over the post-war matter.

___________________________________

I like Chomsky's perspective because he understands anti-semitism (as in anti-Jewish). He also understands anti-Semitism as in people who are racist against Semites.

QUESTION: You mentioned racism vis-à-vis the Palestinians. To what extent, if any, have Israelis of Ashkenazic origin absorbed German racial attitudes toward not just Arabs but even to the Oriental Jews, the Sephardim, is there anything in that?

CHOMSKY: I wouldn't call it particularly German.

QUESTION: European?

CHOMSKY: Yes. It's part of European culture to have racist attitudes toward the Third World, including us, we're part of Europe in that respect. Naturally the Jewish community shared the attitudes of the rest of Europe, not surprising. There certainly are such things inside Israel. My feeling is they could be overcome in time under a situation of peace. I think they're real, but I don't think they're lethal, through slow integration they could probably be overcome. The one that probably can't be overcome is the anti-Arab racism, because that requires subjugation of a defeated and conquered people and that leads to racism. If you're sitting with your boot on somebody's neck, you're going to hate him, because that's the only way that you can justify what you're doing, so subjugation automatically yields racism, and you can't overcome that. Furthermore, anti-Arab racism is rampant in the United States and much of the West, there's no question about that. The only kind of racism that can be openly expressed with outrage is anti-Arab racism. You don't put caricatures of blacks in the newspapers any more; you do put caricatures of Arabs.

___________________________________

Chomsky also wrote:

It's (An independant Palesinian State) supported by most of the world. It's supported by Europe, by the Soviet Union, has been for a long time, by almost all the non-aligned countries, it's supported by all the major Arab states and has been for a long time, supported by the mainstream of the PLO and, again, has been for a long time, it's supported even by the American population, by about two to one according to the polls. But there are also people who oppose it. It's opposed by the rejection front in the Arab world, the minority elements of the PLO, Libya, a few others, minority rejectionist elements, but crucially it's opposed by the leaders of the rejection front, namely the United States and Israel. The United States and Israel adamantly oppose it. The United States will not consider it. Both political groupings in Israel reject it totally. They reject any right of national self-determination for the indigenous population in the former Palestine.

I don't think that it really makes sense to say what should have happened after WWII - if we could change history - there wouldn't have been a WWII. There was Zionism before WWII anyway.

I still think at this point - the best solution is the two state solution. Israel gets out of the West Bank and Gaza. They try to leave the Palestinians alone and vice-versa.

I don't think that Israel intends to try to make that happen, however.

So there will be more wars.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

13. I know people who lost family members in the Holocost

I have read how emotionally wrenching it was for the Holocost survivors-because they knew that they weren't welcome to go back and rebuild their lives in the ruins of Europe. It only made sense that many many of them chose to go elsewhere-some to the US, some to Palestine. I still think that Europe allowed the Jews to go there because of collective guilt-even the US didn't do all it could to save Jews from the ovens (they refused entry to a shipful of Jews who went back to their doom).

The problem I have is that I feel that the Palestinians, including Jews who had lived in Palestine for centuries, were given no say in what happened-that the state of Israel was imposed upon them, like they were so many pieces of garbage with no say in anything that happened. If Israel had been a more secular government, allowing those who were living there to have more of a say, I think things would have been different.

That being said, I've been told by Palestinian friends (who aren't Muslim, btw) that some Palestinian lands were taken, not purchased as you say. They told me that there were times they were forbidden to go to holy Christian shrines in the City of Jerusalem, and it was not for security purposes-it was just to remind them who was boss (I realize this is highly prejudiced on their part;but it is something you rarely hear about-it is always about Muslims and Jews it seems; I haven't found sources to verify it, but then I haven't looked much). Could you kindly show me sources that show that lands were purchased and people were properly compensated?

Also, I know of some cooperative ventures between Muslims and Jews in Israel, but I don't know that they have been encouraged; it seems that the building of the wall has curtailed these efforts. I do know that there are folks on both sides who want the violence to stop and wish to have a negotiated peace.

[TlalocW]

15. Well, to start off with

I wouldn't have a program for them to settle in Israel. I would have made sure they got prime German real estate instead.

TlalocW

[SoCalDem]

19. Yes.. That would have been infinitely FAIRER

and since most of Europe was already on the move from the bombing, a part of Germany or Austria would have been my choice as well..and probably theirs, if their safety could have been guaranteed...and it would have been ..

[Turbineguy]

17. The problem is

that hatred for Jews and criticism of modern day Israeli policies are not the same thing but are always somehow connected in order to defend against criticism.

If you do not happen to like the meal your wife cooked, that does not mean that you hate your wife.

Not only that, there is plenty of criticism for Israeli policies from Israelis themselves. I know this because I have relatives over there who are crtitical and they say there are plenty of others.

To say that that unhappiness with Israel's handling of the Palestinian problem is anti-semetic is illogical and irrational. On the other hand, those who criticize should ask themselves "Am I being anti-Semetic?"

As for the Palestinians, I happen to think that they are more victimized by their own militants than the Israelis.

On Edit: No flame intended, thanks for the post. It's a good point.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

31. And you made an excellent point yourself

when you said the Palestinians are more victimized by their own militants than the Israelis. I think the Palestinians are just trying to figure out a way that they can make a living for their families, have a roof over their heads, and be safe and happy. So far, they've been sold many many promises by people who espouse the violent path. It hasn't worked in 58 years. But it is very difficult for those who wish to build bridges! A Sufi shaykh was threatened by Arafat's Fattah movement because he was making overtures to Jews, inviting them into his home, trying to build bridges of trust.

[burythehatchet]

48. It is always the way - violence profits a small minority

its true in the US its true in the ME its true in Israel.

[whistle]

25. Where in America does it say, "Give me your tired, your poor,

... your huddled masses yearning to be free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore, etc." Is that on Ellis Island? Why did America not accept the Jewish refugees from the Nazi concentration camps and ghettos and other Nazi detention centers across Europe? We took many Nazi war criminals and provided them with a very nice country to settle in and good jobs.

[bbinacan]

49. You'd have to ask FDR and Truman

sadly.

[liberal N proud]

29. Why did they take them away from Europe?

They had settled through out Europe but after WW II they were all sent to Palestine. Now we have this disaster.

[barb162]

67. In Europe there were centuries of persecution of Jews

Pogroms, inquisition....

[ourbluenation]

30. If I was Jewish I'd say fuck it - I'm out. And I'd move to somewhere where

I can raise my children in peace. Ya only go around once. But hey - that's just me...It's why my family left Northern Ireland in the 70's.

[originalpckelly]

43. Same here...

I can't believe people would do this to their children.

[ourbluenation]

53. Me neither - it's one big blue marble with one big family.

that little pea on the left is the home of the Israeli's and Palestinians and Americans and Mexicans and Japanese and Russians and Canadians and Tahitians and....well - you get what I mean.

[ourbluenation]

33. Plus - people were displaced in the region.

[burythehatchet]

39. You suffer from persecution complex

To you, what occurred in the 40's is your license to claim that you are persecuted today. It is what has been beat into your brain all your life. You control American foreign policy in the middle east to the detriment of the US, you control the most aggressive and powerful military in the middle east, you have nuclear weapons that escape all international scrutiny, yet, you are still persecuted.

Do you have the same level of pity for the Native Americans that were exterminated, for the African Americans that actually ARE still persecuted, for the millionjs of Armenians that were killed by the Turks. I have for one have learned a lot over the past week.

I have blood relatives, including my son, who are being raised in the Jewish faith, and now after reading what has been said over the past week, I am more convinced that ever that your entire view of history is so twisted and distorted that any attempt to how contradictory evidence is simply denied.

Israel, as it is today, is a terrorist state that has created an apartheid system designed to choke off an entire population. The great wall that you love so much is final nail.

Yes, the congress gave you unanimous license to continue destroying a country and killing civilians, but that license you have had for decades. No, it is the people who are always ahead of their government. And the people are speaking, you can call me whatever the fuck you want, its been done over the past week and it has made me realize the true nature of your psychological limitations. There are many Jewish people in Israel and in the US who see the truth. Their minds are stronger than yours. They feel exactly like liberals in the US feel about the US invasions. We hate that we finance them and that they are done in our name. Those Jewish people feel that as well. I respect and commend them, especially those who choose punishment over doing the killing themselves. God bless their souls.

So fire away:

Jew hater
Anti semite
Israel hater
Terrorist lover

Its all been done, I'll deal with it. What I truly do hate is what has been done to you by people who profit from the current situation.

[Lost-in-FL]

56. >

:applause:

[Minnesota Libra]

45. After reading some of the comments about taking part of Germany...........

.....to make a homeland for what Jews were left please allow me to point something out.

First of all, the Jews that were left in 1945 hadn't all come from Germany and may not have wanted to live on German soil - if it had been me I don't think I could have waited to get out and away from Germany.

Next is the idea some raised that Britain and the US take every last Jew left in Europe who wanted to leave. Now, I'm going to try and put myself in their position for just a moment, although I'll never be able to completely understand what Jews went through in Europe.

In trying to understand I think if I had been one of the few Jews left after 6 million of my race had been killed I think I would have some specific ideas on where and with whom I lived from then on. Now considering that a madman was able to kill off 6 million of my people while the rest of the world watched and did very little I doubt I would be of a mind to want to live around any of those people who watched and did nothing.

So now where do the few Jews who are left go to live?? Next best thing - a place of their own.

If a homeland in the Middle East isn't good enough then why not take two states from this country where the largest objections are coming from and turn those states over to the Jews.

I would be willing to bet good money that within ten years - and probably a whole lot less than that - the Arabs?Muslims/etc left in the Middle East would be fighting among themselves.

[NashVegas]

61. Of Course They Would

I would be willing to bet good money that within ten years - and probably a whole lot less than that - the Arabs?Muslims/etc left in the Middle East would be fighting among themselves.

I've a good friend of Lebanese descent; his grandfather immigrated in the early 20th century, fleeing from a massacre. The grandson, my friend, considers pretty much everyone in the ME as "dog people."

[mmonk]

46. Can people who have no problem with Jews in Palestine

respond and ask questions? I await your decision.

[Jacobin]

51. And now a million Palestinians are in walled off ghettos

Their plight may not rival the Jews' plight in Nazi Germany, but they have no hope, no lives, no jobs, no country and their conduct is completely predictable.

The Palestinians did not cause the holocaust, but they are suffering the consequences of it today

[manic expression]

54. Where do I begin?

First, Gypsies did live in communities, and they were rounded up and sent as families. That assumption of yours is wrong, but that is only the beginning.

The Jews who settled in Palestine DID uproot many. Zionists began attacking "targets" as early as the 1910's. Even those who bought land unwittingly uprooted entire families of Palestinians, as they did not officially own the land under the Ottoman system (IIRC). Next, the UN mandate itself was ridiculous, as it gave less than half the population (the Zionists) more than half the land.

After the UN mandate, the Zionists immediately began to cleanse their state of Palestinians, the Zionists evicted people for no real reason. Soon, the Zionists forced their way into what was supposed to be Palestinian lands, committing atrocities as they went. When news of the massacres was heard, people fled for fear of the attacking Zionists. In the end, the Zionists stole even more land from what was supposed to be Palestinian territory, uprooting around 750,000 innocent people (against their will). It is remembered as "al-Nakba", or "the Nightmare". The Arab nations launched an effort against the invading Zionist force, but were repelled and could not win back the stolen land.

"The first 'clearing' operations were conducted against Palestinian villages by Jewish forces in December."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_ip_timeline/html/1947.stm

More:

"Jewish forces, backed by the Irgun and Lehi militant groups made more progress, seizing areas alloted to the Jewish state but also conquering substantial territories allocated for the Palestinian one.

Irgun and Lehi massacred scores of inhabitants of the village of Deir Yassin near Jerusalem on 9 April. Word of the massacre spread terror among Palestinians and hundreds of thousands fled to Lebanon, Egypt and the area now known as the West Bank."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_ip_timeline/html/1948.stm

Try cracking open a history book now and again, because you showed yourself to be utterly ignorant of what actually happened.

No one complained about the annexation of the Gaza Strip and West Bank because it was not a hostile invasion, occupation and land grab. If you can't realize that much, that is simply pathetic.

What would I have done with the Jews? I WOULD NOT have let them steal land from an entire people, oppress and murder countless innocents and heap injustice after injustice upon an entire region. I would have let them take part in the rebuilding of Europe and their homes, not the destruction of someone else's.

You should understand this disdain for disgusting and unjustified actions and policies. Israel is clearly guilty of unending wrongdoing, and that is why people speak out against them and fight against them.

There were people there, and now they are not there, they were made the victims of Israel's ethnic cleansing. I don't care if the Justice League said the Zionists should have Palestine, they should not. Period. Oh, and guess who didn't safeguard the "civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine"; that's right, the Zionists.

Lastly, are there Holocaust deniers on DU? Please, your persecution complex is blocking your view of the computer screen.

[jonnyblitz]

62. looks like the bbc is anti-semitic , too.

First, Hannah Arendt, now the BBC. :sarcasm:

interesting post, anyways. :thumbsup: you are going to get called every name in the book, though.

[Hippo_Tron]

59. All allied nations should have welcomed them with open arms

Or they should have been allowed to return to whatever country they were from after the war, if that is what they wanted to do.

Here's the bottom line, in my opinion. Much of the Arab world is anti-semitic or at least won't accept having a Jewish State on their borders no matter what. The Arab world is wrong about this and they should accept a Jewish state. That being said, the question I have to ask is: was it worth it? Creating Israel was certainly justified but was it practical? Did they not see that its creation would lead to endless conflict? Did they not care? In hindsight, I would've simply said that endless killing on both sides is not worth what good will come out of creating Israel.

[barb162]

63. I think they didn't see it would lead to endless conflict

They didn't see it at all.

[Hippo_Tron]

66. I find it hard to believe that some people didn't see it coming

But perhaps they weren't the guys in charge.

[barb162]

69. I think some people did see it coming especially

when one looks at the long history of violence prior to 1948. But the people in power, the dealmakers, didn't see it, I suspect.

[barb162]

60. Outstanding post, thank you so much for posting

Yours:"...many here, who would have compassion for any underdog group across the globe would not have any for the Jews." That is a very telling comment; that says it all, doesn't it?

[Lithos]

73. Locking per I/P guidelines

Not based on a recent news or op-ed article


Lithos
DU Moderator