Israel Will Accept a Disarmed Hezbollah

[bemildred]

The United States, Israel, the United Nations and the European Union have reluctantly concluded that despite punishing military attacks, Hezbollah is likely to survive as a political player in Lebanon, and Israel now says it is willing to accept the organization if it sheds its military wing and abandons extremism, according to several key officials.

"To the extent that it remains a political group, it will be acceptable to Israel," Israeli Ambassador Daniel Ayalon said yesterday in the strongest sign to date that the Israelis are rethinking the scope and ultimate goals of the campaign. "A political group means a party that is engaged in the political system in Lebanon, but without terrorism capabilities and fighting capabilities. That will be acceptable to Israel."

In a bid to contain Hezbollah, the United States is hoping to persuade Arab allies over the next week -- Saudi Arabia in talks today and Egypt and Jordan at an emergency meeting Wednesday in Rome -- to get Syria to stop arming, funding and facilitating Hezbollah's military operations, U.S. officials said.

Because Syria is also the physical conduit for all Iranian arms and personnel bound for Lebanon, the regime of President Bashar al-Assad could be pivotal to helping end the current hostilities and ensuring that Hezbollah's options are limited afterward.

WaPo

[TomInTib]

1. Two way street.. Hezbollah Will Accept a Disarmed Israel.

Jeebus

What total inanity.

[still_one]

2. big difference

..."a speech delivered by Hassan Nasrallah, in which he said, "If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli."

"Larry Johnson, a former counterterrorism official in the Clinton State Department, once told me, "There's a fundamental view here of the Jew as subhuman. Hezbollah is the direct ideological heir of the Nazis."

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?021014fa_fact4

[TomInTib]

4. Hezbollah may be whatever they are...

but why in the world should they be expected to disarm?

Would an un-armed Hezbollah be welcomed with open arms by Israel?

Just wondering.

[Name removed]

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[Totallybushed]

74. Only if they

are totally beaten will they consent to be disarmed.

That's the way war works, and it ain't pretty.

[theanarch]

6. yeah, right...

...and i'm sure with a little digging, one could turn up any number of quotes by promenent Israeli's or their supporters expressing an equally derogatory opinion on the sub-humanness of Arabs and Muslims as well (the one by Israel's chief Rabbi that "10,000 dead Palestinians aren't worth one Jewish fingernail" comes to mind). Of course Israel wants a disarmed Hezbollah...easier for their tanks to roll over Southern Lebanon without those pesky land-mines and annoying RPG's slowing the advance...

[still_one]

20. read the article, it is more than a quote

just curious if you support Hezbollah?

[theanarch]

39. support is the wrong question...

...i acknowledge the reality of the situation: like it/them or not, Hezbollah represents a major constitutancy in Lebanese politics and life (just as the settler's movement does in Israel), and no solution can be achieved by pretending they don't. Sooner or later, all sides will have to accept a negotiated (IN GOOD FAITH) compromise that gives something to everyone, or the violence will continue indefinitely. Taking a morally-absolutist position (say, Hezbollah commits acts of terrorism and therefore has no legitimacy) may give some people a warm, fuzzy feeling of self-righteousness, but this only gets in the way of the harder, more practical/pragmatic choices that have to be made. The crux of the crisis is Israel--the refusal to define or fix its own borders, its treatment of captive populations, it addiction to disproportionate retaliation (after sixty years of failure, still going strong, making more enemies faster than they can kill them). Israel can have all the peace and security it wants or needs by negotiating its borders and allowing Palestinians genuine self-determination; i think pro-Israeli's will be quite surprised at how accomodating front-line Arab states and organizations can be, if and when Israel renounces its annexationist policies, and agrees to some sort of compensation for refugees in lieu of a 'right of return'. In the alternative, anyone who believes that "taking out the bad guys" who stand in the way of these policies is living in a fantasy world, quite divorced from the real one: no matter how many "Islamofascists" one kills, there will always be more...again, either Israel gives up it's dream of resurrecting Greater Judea/Samaria, or pursues it, at the cost of being a garrision state in perpetual war with its neighbors, for decades and centuries to come. The choice is Israels, and the longer they refuse to make it, the harder it will be for them to change their minds later...if, indeed, they haven't already passed that point of no return. Personally, i would hope things haven't gotten that bad, but it's very hard to be hopeful or optimistic at this point.

[DELUSIONAL]

26. I guess Israel had a map of all the land mines they left in

Southern Lebanon -- interesting how this little detail is always forgotten.

Lebanese children are injured by land mines left behind by Israel during their last occupation -- which the UN probably posted resolutions against. Damned lot of good that did the last time this happened.

Funny thing the Iranian people don't want their tax dollar to go for Hizbolla's support any more than many of us in the US want our tax dollar to support the killing of children in Lebanon.

But then bushie only cares about "snowflake" babies -- real babies and children can just die.

I consider this bushie's other war -- he's now tired of the Iraq war -- just as he grew tired of the Afghanistan war. So now bushie has a new war -- and he can watch the secret video of how all the new toy bombs and bang stuff is working. Gosh it must be hard work -- watching all the new war video.

I direct full blame for this war at the Neocons and their puppet boy -- bushie -- the war Prez.

[Erika]

60. I agree 100%

W just wants war. The more war, the bigger profits to the globalists.

[Name removed]

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[Fredda Weinberg]

10. What you think is quite besides the point

The quote should have given you insight into Hezbollah

[Erika]

12. Excuse me, I pay taxes

and it's not to blow up Arab innocents.

[still_one]

21. are hezbollah an innocent party?

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[madeline_con]

51. Well put. n/t

[puffthemagicdragon]

14. I agree, a disarmed Israel is cool too

Israel must disarm as well for there to be any chance for peace in the region.

[still_one]

23. really, and what would those countries who have vowed to destroy

Israel do?

[Erika]

3. Who is Israel to say who they will allow to rule Lebanon

Do they have a W complex or what? How about the hundreds of Lebanese innocents they have killed or the fact they destroyed Lebanon's infrastructure?

I expect our own needs will be unmet even further as W supports the warmongering of Israel and diverts our taxes to Israel as a reward for their warmongering.

Maybe W will eliminate Head Start or Public Housing?

[Fredda Weinberg]

5. There's a UN resolution as well

All the other ethnic militias disarmed, but Hezbollah has not.

[Erika]

9. Israel totally disregarded more U.N. resolutions than Iraq

You didn't see Israel being attacked, did you.

A CNN report today showed that the Lebanese had some anger against Hezbolla, but nothing compared to the anger against Israel.

Aggression is just that. Israel is aggressive, with our taxes paying for their aggression.

[Fredda Weinberg]

11. It must be wonderful to be so ignorant

Yes, Israel was attacked and Hezbollah is holding two IDF soldiers hostage after a border excursion. What do you think precipitated Israel's action?

[Erika]

15. Are you trying to justify Israel's killing of 391 innocents?

Because two soldiers were kidnapped?

[Fredda Weinberg]

22. Uh huh. Never admit a mistake ... just keep attacking

I get your drift. Nighty night.

[madeline_con]

52. Israel's policy in a nutshell. n/t

[still_one]

36. are you trying to justify Hezbollah's charter for Israel's destruction?

[Pepper32]

32. The truth

Hezbollah captures two Israeli soldiers

By IANS
Wednesday July 12, 04:01 PM

Beirut, July 12 (DPA) The Lebanese Shiite Hezbollah movement announced Wednesday that its guerrillas have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon.

'Implementing our promise to free Arab prisoners in Israeli jails, our strugglers have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon,' a statement by Hezbollah said.


'The two soldiers have already been moved to a safe place,' it added.


The Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were captured as they 'infiltrated' into the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border.


Israeli aircraft were active in the air over southern Lebanon, the police said, with jets bombing roads leading to the market town of Nabatiyeh, 60 Kilometres south of Beirut.


Lebanese security sources told DPA that the planes were bombarding roads, which might be used by Hezbollah guerrillas.

http://in.news.yahoo.com/060712/43/65tzi.html

[TomInTib]

13. Bingo dog doo-dah, Erika

Never held to the same standards as every other nation.

[still_one]

35. well an Aljazeera poll says something else in the Arab world

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/890500CB-E84E-4E17-ACB5-768A7FBF3670.htm

[Name removed]

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[Matilda]

16. Israels' actions over the past week

have made sure that Hezbollah will stay armed and ready to defend
the Lebanese and Palestinians. Because nobody else will do it.

If Hezbollah is still intact at the end of this exercise, they will have
won just by surviving Israel's vastly superior weaponry.

[madrchsod]

24. and that is exactly what the political wing of hezbollah wants

and the israeli government gave it to them.they knew the idf would go for the overkill because they have done it before in lebanon. sometimes one wins by losing

[still_one]

29. that is a pretty close quote from an AP story on Yahoo

If that is the logic they use, then it shows what morans they really are. Sometimes wisdom is a much better force instead of self-destruction, and by crossing the border knowing they were outgunned as you say, then they are even MORE STUPID by assuming Israel would do nothing

That is a sure way to suicide

[Matilda]

37. Neither Hezbollah nor any local ME army can beat Israel

in open fight. So they have two choices - give up, or fight a guerilla
war, and that's what they are doing.

Guerilla war is always slow and painful, but it often works simply by
wearing out the invaders.

[still_one]

38. maybe they can accept Israel's right to exist

instead of wanting to turn back the clock to 1948

Israel isn't going anywhere, and if they REALLY want a Palestinian state they better recognize that fact

Everytime they have tried to destroy Israel, they continue to lose more ground for the Palestinians

How many times do you have to be hit in the head before you realize the approach you are taking isn't productive

[Erika]

42. How many times do you think W has to hit you in the head

to see his policies are productive?

[still_one]

46. so are you saying you want to roll the clock back

are you saying that Isreal does NOT have a right to exist?

[Name removed]

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[still_one]

50. corporate zionist keyword, which means destruction of Israel

because Zionism is that Jews have a homeland, and you can twist it anyway you want, but 98% of the JEWS ARE ZIONISTS

Sorry but ISRAEL IS NOT GOING AWAY, and yes, your tax dollars will pay for it

[Name removed]

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[still_one]

66. no you understand yours?

the reason Zionism, which means a Jewish homeland came about, is precisely because of what the world has done to the Jews throughout history.

[madeline_con]

54. Erika, you rock!

:yourock:

[still_one]

56. unfortunately the mods removed the post before I had a chance to read it

so I can't respond, but I fell it must have been an extremely balanced response, otherwise why would the mods have removed it?

[Matilda]

76. The Jews have a right to exist,

but not on the back of another country.

The Holocaust was in truth not a valid reason for displacing another
race from their land. It was in part an emotional decision due to
western guilt, and very much driven by President Truman, who was very
conscious of the American Jewish vote.

[sabbat hunter]

79. does israel

have a right to exist where it is currently located?

yes or no please

[Matilda]

82. I said it already.

Not on the back of another nation. Jews have a right to live there, but the creation of a new
state by partitioning an already existing one was in fact wrong, and that is the root of all the
trouble.

[hack89]

78. So when the guerrilla's live and fight among the civilian population...

how do the Israelis fight back? Do you think it is a deliberate tactic by Hezbollah to use civilians as shields?

[dennis4868]

18. Israel....

is crazy. Hazballah will never disarm. They may say it but a terrorist group cannot be rusted. Israel must finish the job to protect and defend their country1

[madrchsod]

19. now the usa has an excuse to go after syria?

let`s see...go after syria ,destabilize that country,overthrow the king and presto-chango! the muslim brotherhood is in charge of syria!! dam what a plan! the guys who brought the 9/11 attack and is on the verge of overthrowing the leader of egypt at any time...wow what a plan..god i love it when a plan comes together!

[DELUSIONAL]

28. A destabilization of the whole Middle East -- yep bushie's name

will go down in history.

He doesn't care HOW he is remember -- as long as his name is BIGGER than his father's. Because now his dick is bigger than his dad's -- he wins this pissing contest with his dad.

Why does this dysfunctional very rich family get to play with human lives?

[still_one]

30. actually I think just the opposite will happen

I think Syria, Suadi Arabia, and the U.S will negotiate something

[madrchsod]

33. the saudi`s do not want a wider war

esp. if it involves iran. actually i do think the saudi`s will tell bush what to do...after all they are best of friends

[still_one]

34. actually the saudi want to lesson the power of Iran, and so does Syria

[Name removed]

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[still_one]

55. did I say I approved or disapproved of this?

Don't take this wrong, but when your emotion takes off and you say "I approve" of bush or saudi's policies", tell me you are not reading what I posted with you mind, but with your emotion

I was just speculating on a possibility

In addition, by calling a life long Democrat a supporter of *s policy invalidates any reasonable or productive discussion

[enuffs_enuffs]

25. So, looks like the lessons of 1982 are actually settling in.

AND, only a few hundred casualities!!!

Cheers... god you bastards suck.

[still_one]

31. what is even more amazing is the sympathizing with Hezbollah

that is occurring

You can condemn the civillian deaths, and critisize an overreaction on Israel's part, but the sympathy for Hezbollah says everything

In reality both parties in Congress recognize Hezbollah as the terrorist organization they are, that NOT only calls for the destruction of Israel, but the killing of Jews throughout the world

[Name removed]

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[still_one]

44. Hezbollah's charter is destruction of Israel

it also calls for killing Jews worldwide

You don't like YOUR tax dollars going to Israel, then vote for people who support your view, and I will vote for the people that support my view

If they really want a Palestinian state then recognize Israel.

[Name removed]

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[still_one]

49. you like to throw the word genocide around don't you

in reality you would prefer that Israel was destroyed. Obviously, the majority of Americans DO NOT AGREE WITH YOU, and that is a fact

[Erika]

59. I have no wish for Israel to be destroyed, none at all

I just don't want my taxes used for the deaths of innocents.

[still_one]

63. and those are valid points for discussion

I don't believe the tax dollars in this case are used to intentially kill civillians, and we are going to disagree on that. But that in no way implies that I am happy about civillian deaths, and perhaps all of this could have been avoided if diplomatic engagement had NOT been ignored for the past six years.

[Erika]

68. Detente should have nothing to do with moral conscience

Yes, Bush has ignored, and is still ignoring anyone who doesn't praise him. That has nothing to do with the lack of conscience against a superior military power, Israel, decimating another culture and killing innocents. On U.S. taxpayer's money.

[still_one]

69. you don't believe it, but Israel's neighbors do want to destroy it

and they will not allow that to happen. Never Again

[Erika]

70. If Israel tried to be a neighbor rather than an aggressor

things might be different. Israel has been on its own Jihad since Ben Gurion.

[still_one]

71. we are not going to agree, especially on your point that Israel

is out to destroy the Arab world.

If Israel didn't have a superior military they would be destroyed

There have been more than enough wars since 1948 which tried to destroy Israel. The Yom Kipper war was a surprise attack by its neigbors to destroy it. They lost over 2600 people in that war, a war THEY didn't start, and a lesson they won't forget

If the U.S. didn't have a superior military, the U.S. would NOT be here today

It is a simple case of reality

[Name removed]

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[Codeine]

53. Please look up the definition of "genocide".

You keep using it, but you've obviously no idea what it means.

[Erika]

62. I know what it means and so do the Israelis n/t

[still_one]

64. Civillian loss is not a good thing, but it is also not genocide,

and using such terms, will not further the points you are trying to make

[Erika]

65. Yes, it is when one force is so much larger than

the opposing force and civilians are not considered. The Lebanese caught two Israeli soldiers inside Lebanon, and now Israel is decimating Beirut and killing innocent civilials, as well as destroying the infrastructure of Lebanon.

This sickens me especially when my taxes are paying for the destruction and loss of life.

[still_one]

67. I know your position, and you know mine

[Andromeda]

84. Please get your facts straight.

The Lebanese did not catch two Israeli soldiers "inside" Lebanon.

You're making it sound like Lebanese citizens just decided to grab a couple of Israeli soldiers for the hell of it.

The terrorist group Hezbollah seized two soldiers inside the Israeli border after killing about seven others.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/12/world/middleeast/12cnd-mideast.html?ex=1310356800&en=edb3d5b4d4e9f84d&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Hezbollah actually crossed a sovereign border to kidnap and kill IDF soldiers. The act was deliberate and provocative with every intention of stirring up a harsh response by Israel.

[Codeine]

77. Clearly you have no idea what it means.

Genocide is "The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group." That's not what the Israelis are up to, is it?

[oberliner]

57. wow

The government of Lebanon and the UN Security Council have demanded that Hezbollah disarm. (Resolution 1559)

I don't know where your 23% number came from but Hezbollah holds 14 of 128 seats in the Lebanese general election.

"We" (whoever you mean by that) do not want to overthrow the government.

Do you really believe that Israel is currently engaged in the "genocide of Arabs"?

[still_one]

58. That's about 3%

[Andromeda]

83. So do you.

[bemildred]

72. Well, that was an interesting response this thread got.

The interesting thing about the story, I thought, was the moderation that is occurring in the demands being made and the schoolyard bully rhetoric. That is good, it suggests that someone, somewhere, is thinking it over, and that wiser heads may yet prevail.

[cali]

73. Precisely

That so few people recognized that, is indicative of how little most people know about I/P affairs and the middle east. Bemildred, I'm just curious, do you think I/P affairs should be returned to the I/P forum? I realize that the Israel/Lebanon mess extends beyond the usual subject matter, but there sure has been a lot more heat than light thrown, in recent weeks.

[bemildred]

75. It's hard to think when you are mad.

That is a lot of the problem. People wallow in emotion instead of thinking matters through. The high-school football game approach to politics, root for your side no matter what.

It's a very important issue, I think its been good to air it in the general forums. I don't know whether it ought to stay that way or not, the mods and admins will have to make that decision as time goes on.

Posters that would like to keep the topic out of the dungeon could help the cause by refusing to be baited into uncivil debate.

[pelsar]

80. impossible...

my rought estimate....at least 60% of the posts here have information that is simply wrong or have that "black/white view.....maybe 20% of the posts have info that based on facts and different viewpoints that can actually evolve into a debate of sort...and the other 20% are deleted.

sad as it is, it probably belongs in the dungen....and on a more interesting point. i also post on a military site: the posters in general are a bit more informed there (given that much of conflict is military oriented) but that same 20% which are deleted here have a 20% parallel posting there of "idiots and pure antisemites. The debateable 20% here also have a similar number there but the discussion is more global oriented (global politics, etc)....just an observation.

[bennywhale]

81. The thing that pisses me off most is that

both sides behave like fucking children, but with huge arsenals of murderous weapons. The US is the nanny and the rest of the world are adults trying to intervene to stop them squabbling.

What this does is take all our political energies away from places like Darfur where much more severe humanitarian tragedies are occuring or countries like Burma, China and North Korea who treat their citizens with contempt.

What this also means is that while the planet slowly cooks,we sit here shouting at eachother about this tiny part of the world whilst belching out pollution.

Both sides fuck me off