Proportionality in the war in Lebanon

[barb162]

Last update - 10:16 23/07/2006


Proportionality in the war in Lebanon

By Abraham H. Foxman

Israel's case before the world in its military conflict against Hezbollah is as strong as the nation has ever had. Not occupying territory from whence the aggression came, facing a foe which is recognized by the international community as terrorist and illegitamately in control of the southern part of Lebanon, being the victim of an unprovoked attack and kidnapping by the terrorist group, Israel is seen even by the usual knee-jerk critics of the Jewish state as having the right of self-defense.

The problem for Israel lies beyond first causes, in the now oft-repeated accusation that Israel is engaged in a "disproportionate" response.

Sometimes this charge takes the form of accusing Israel of destroying Lebanon just to redeem two soldiers. Sometimes it takes the form of comparing the ratio of the civilian death toll, about ten Lebanese for every Israeli. Or other times it appears in the comment that Lebanon had finally begun to emerge from three decades of war, division and destruction, and now Israel was setting the country back irreparably.


These are serious charges. Israel does have a responsibility to itself and the international community to avoid, if possible, civilian casualties and destruction of Lebanese infrastructure. However, the accusation against Israel completely fails to recognize the context out of which this conflict has come to pass.
snip
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/741693.html

[catmother]

1. interesting article. i'm not a supporter of war, but israel was

forced to take the action that it did. constantly being threatened by other countries that want them wiped off the face of the earth or pushed into the sea, i can understand their actions.

what would we, here in the US do, if we were constantly attacked and threatened by canada or mexico? i doubt whether we would have even waited as long as israel did to retaliate.

i'm trying to stay away from these threads. i've had a week of being flamed, called a freeper, a bush lover and worse things.

i despise bush and his administration but i will not blame this on him. this is between israel and Hizbollah. the united states has always supported israel whether our leaders were republicans or democrats. they are truly our allies in the mid-east.

i may be wrong, but i think some people here on DU are not taking israel's side just because bush has.

on edit: i did it again. trying to stay away from the israel/palestine thread but here i am again. i said this the other night and someone replied "oh stay with us, we have all the fun" or something similar to those words.

[barb162]

2. I appreciate your points and agree

that, for some, when Bush says something, it is automatic disagreement by some here. Your wisdom on the other points is also welcomed.

[catmother]

3. thank you. i try to keep an open mind.

[Andromeda]

7. I appreciate your comments too...

[wellst0nev0ter]

4. So Should Turkey Bomb Baghdad Airport

in response to recent Kurdish terrorism?

Luckily, Turkey is a mature country and has decided to actually NEGOTIATE with the powers purportedly in charge in order to burb terrorism instead of engaging in collective punishment.

[barb162]

37. Did Iraq bomb Turkey's 3rd largest city or kidnap its soldiers?

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[catmother]

6. we are deluged with the pictures of destruction. it's very sad

that things had to go this far. we mourn for the loss of life.

[IndianaGreen]

8. To Abe Foxman: Israel is purposely targeting civilians!

Only a blind ideologue would refuse to see that what Israel is doing to Lebanon is genocide! Imagine Israel shooting minivans driven by Americans fleeing one of our cities, and then consider the bullshit level that Israel's explanations for killing civilians have reached, and consider also the innocent blood that has been spilled.

GENOCIDE

On December 9, 1948, in the shadow of the Holocaust and in no small part due to the tireless efforts of Lemkin himself, the United Nations approved the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. This convention establishes "genocide” as an international crime, which signatory nations “undertake to prevent and punish.” It defines genocide as:

Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/index.php?ModuleId=10007043&Type=normal+article

Blasted by a missile on the road to safety

Family ordered to flee were targeted because they were driving minivan

Suzanne Goldenberg in Kafra, Lebanon
Monday July 24, 2006
The Guardian

The ambulanceman gave Ali the job of keeping his mother alive. The 12-year-old did what he could. "Mama, mama, don't go to sleep," he sobbed, gently patting her face beneath her chin. Behind her black veil, her eyelids were slowly sinking. "I'm going to die," she sighed. "Don't say that, mama," Ali begged, and then slid to the ground in tears.

On the pavement around mother and son were the other members of the Sha'ita family, their faces spattered with each other's blood. All were in varying shades of shock and injury. A tourniquet was tied on Ali's mother's arm. A few metres away, his aunt lay motionless, the white T-shirt beneath her abaya stained red. Two sisters hugged each other and wept, oblivious to the medics tending their wounds. "Let them take me, let them take me," one screamed.

Their mother was placed on a stretcher, and lifted into the ambulance. "God is with you, mama," Ali said. She reached up with her good arm to caress his face.
The Sha'itas had thought they were on the road to safety when they set out yesterday, leaving behind a village which because of an accident of geography - it is five miles from the Israeli border - had seemed to make their home a killing ground. They had been ordered to evacuate by the Israelis.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0,,1827422,00.html

[pelsar]

9. israeli air force: poor targeting

the israeli air force has flown over 1,000 sorties...dropped over 2,000 bombs....and killed aprox 400 lebanese

that results in 5 bombs (some being over ton) for every lebanese killed......if the IDF is committing genocide they're going to either have to improve their aim or get a lot more bombs.

and this doesnt include the artillery which i believe has shot over 5,000 shells

at this rate the "genocide" is going to take a very very very long time.

[IndianaGreen]

10. Racism Plagues Western Media Coverage

Racism Plagues Western Media Coverage

By Ramzy Baroud
7-23-06,!0:37am

By not challenging the Israeli narrative in any meaningful way, the uncritical media has become a tool in the hands of Israel's war strategists and their eternal concoctions.

Consider this example. An Israeli military commander tells a BBC correspondent dispatched to the border area between Israel and Gaza, that Israel intends on opening the border for "as long as it takes" to offset the humanitarian crisis developing in Gaza. The Israeli Army representative in a barefaced lie declares that the border has always been open, despite the perpetual Palestinian threat on the state of Israel. The BBC correspondent thanks him and signs off.

Is it possible that the BBC is unaware of the fact that Gaza has been under a strict military siege since Hamas' democratic advent to power through the January 2006 elections? Could it be that the Western media has missed the dozens of shocking reports that have warned that the Israeli siege -- which began months before the capture of Shalit -- was soon to create chaos and panic among the already malnourished Palestinians in Gaza? Did they all miss statements by top Israeli officials vowing to carry on with the siege until the outset of Hamas?

Some reporters misrepresent facts out of ignorance, not by design. But if that indeed was the case, then how can one excuse the fact that the same media that coined the term "kidnapping" to describe the action of the Palestinian fighters who captured Shalit refused to use the same association to describe the kidnapping of most of the elected Palestinian Cabinet, mostly academics with no connection to any militant wing?

Israel's military spokesman insisted that they are "all terrorists" and Israel, "like any democratic" country has the right to protect itself against terrorists. If that was true, why did Israel refrain from kidnapping them until Palestinian fighters embarrassed the Israeli Army and captured their first prisoner of war in a long time? Is "rounding up" Palestinian ministers and scores of legislators the same as having a soldier captured in what has been for long a one-sided Israeli war?

http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/articleview/3875/1/199/

[pelsar]

11. the accusation was genocide.....in lebanon

Only a blind ideologue would refuse to see that what Israel is doing to Lebanon is genocide

i could be a blind ideologue....or i know how to add/subtract/multipe and divide.....

israel is either doing an incredibly poor job of it, or the accusation is wrong, in error, hyperbole, etc

[IndianaGreen]

12. CBS reported that Israel bombed a Palestinian refuge camp in Lebanon

I guess the government of Israel never misses an opportunity to kill Palestinians wherever they are.

In other news:

Howells ignores diplomatic niceties while Beckett denies rift with her minister

Rory McCarthy in Haifa, Ewen MacAskill and Michael White
Monday July 24, 2006
The Guardian

The British Foreign Office minister Kim Howells refused to back down over his controversial comments about the Lebanon conflict when he arrived in Israel yesterday, repeating his calls for Israelis to show "proportionality and restraint".

Mr Howells ignored the diplomatic convention that he tone down his comments because of his presence in the host country, saying the Israelis "have got to think very hard about those children who are dying".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0,,1827511,00.html

The Lebanese Red Cross in Tyre said 10 cars carrying civilians and three or four motorcycles had been hit by Israeli missiles yesterday. Red Cross ambulances were no safer; a spokesman said an ambulance had narrowly escaped a missile near the village of el-Qlaile, south of the city. A number of the dead, including the three members of the Sha'ita family, remained trapped in their cars because it was too dangerous to retrieve their bodies.

In Tyre, south Lebanon's main town and a stopping point on the flight to the north, the hospital received a steady flow of injured. By late afternoon there were three dead and 41 injured, two critically."They are bombing them all in their cars," said Ahmed Mrowe, the director of Jabal al-Amal hospital.

Those who choose not to flee - the UN estimates that 35%-40% of villagers are too poor or too frail to make the journey - are being left stranded.

That was the predicament facing the Sha'itas when Musbah Sha'ita urged them to flee. In a car on the way to the hospital, his ear was welded to his phone, trying to find out where his wounded relatives were, and he could not stop blaming himself.

"We put a white flag. We were doing what Israel told us to do," he says. "What more do they want of us?"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0,,1827422,00.html

This story, for the Monsoor family, started out as a typical one, probably one that most of us have experienced. They had simply gone on a family vacation to some lovely sunny beaches, but these beaches were in southern Lebanon.

The six of them, like thousands of others, were fleeing the fighting -- trying to get north, waving white flags, when an Israeli bomb or missile slammed into their car. (Watch how the littlest victims are suffering -- 2:54)

The father, Mohammed Monsoor, was killed instantly. His children all were wounded. His wife, who is now crying over two of the wounded children, was in the best physical condition. But as would be the case for any mother and wife, her life, in many ways, ended the minute the car exploded into flames.

The other two Monsoor children, Ahmed, 15, and Ali, 13, are in surgery. Doctors can't tell me if they will make it. They walk away, their heads shaking. Optimism is not a word that breathes truth in this place.

There are more than enough stories like this, in hospitals across southern Lebanon. This hospital, on this day, seems to be a microcosm of the region. Less than 100 meters from the front door of the hospital, a car is on fire. Less than 30 minutes earlier, the car exploded as an Israeli jet circled overhead. The fog of war has crept into the hospital, and no one knows where the casualties of that strike are being treated.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/23/perry.tyre/index.html

[pelsar]

13. so thats now genocide?

I'm still on your original accusation......perhaps you can backup a few posts?

(and i guess using your new modifed version of genocide...i guess hizballa is also being genocidal)

[IndianaGreen]

16. The definition of genocide from the Holocaust Museum is on post #8

It fits what Israel is doing in Lebanon to a tee:

GENOCIDE

On December 9, 1948, in the shadow of the Holocaust and in no small part due to the tireless efforts of Lemkin himself, the United Nations approved the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. This convention establishes "genocide” as an international crime, which signatory nations “undertake to prevent and punish.” It defines genocide as:

Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x138753#138817

[eyl]

35. You;ve yet to establish

the intent in that definition.

[Andromeda]

14. This is a markist publication..

and I don't accept it as a valid source. I don't believe markist/leninist/communist/socialist publications are acceptable sources at DU.

The same could be said for extremist right-wing sources some posters use.

[IndianaGreen]

15. Supporting war crimes is not acceptable

Who cares what you think when you are supporting Bush and Condi Rice's enabling of war crimes in the Middle East?

BTW, I am a Marxist!

[pelsar]

18. sorry to hear that..

marism is a failed philosophy....to learn about it applications and how it fails to take into account the sensitivities and changes of individuals you should read up on the various kibbutzim that tried it.

and the definition of genocide?

...national, ethnical, racial or religious group ...which one applies to the hizballa since they are the targets of the IDF

[IndianaGreen]

19. What do you prefer, Bush's freedom and democracy?

As Rosa Luxemburg said, the choice is between barbarism or socialism.

Israel's Communist Party feels differently about Marxism. and they marched for a ceasefire a couple of days ago.

The Lebanese people are the targets of IDF, not just Hezbollah:

July 24, 2006

Israelis Bomb Fleeing Villagers

By ROBERT FISK

They are in the schools, in empty hospitals, in halls and mosques and in the streets. The Shia Muslim refugees of southern Lebanon, driven from their homes by the Israelis, are arriving in Sidon by the thousand, cared for by Sunni Muslims and then sent north to join the 600,000 displaced Lebanese in Beirut. More than 34,000 have passed through here in the past four days alone, a tide of misery and anger. It will take years to heal their wounds, and billions of dollars to repair their damaged property.

And who can blame them for their flight? For the second time in eight days, the Israelis committed a war crime yesterday. They ordered the villagers of Taire, near the border, to leave their homes and then - as their convoy of cars and minibuses obediently trailed northwards - the Israeli air force fired a missile into the rear minibus, killing three refugees and seriously wounding 13 other civilians. The rocket that killed them is believed to have been a Hellfire missile made by Lockheed Martin in Florida.

Nine days ago, the Israeli army ordered the inhabitants of a neighboring village, Marwaheen, to leave their homes and then fired rockets into one of their evacuation trucks, blasting the women and children inside to their deaths. And this is the same Israeli air force which was praised last week by one of Israel's greatest defenders - Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz - because it "takes extraordinary steps to minimize civilian casualties".

Nor have the Israelis spared Sidon. A heap of rubble and pancaked walls is all that is left of the Fatima Zahra mosque, a Hizbollah institution in the centre of the city, its minaret crumbled and its dome now sitting on the concrete, a black flag still flying from its top. When Israeli warplanes came early yesterday morning, the 75-year-old caretaker had no time to run from the building; he died of his wounds hours later. His overturned white plastic chair still lies by the gate. The mosque is unlikely to have been used for military purposes; a school belonging to the Hariris, Sidon's all-powerful Sunni family, stands next door; they would never have allowed weapons into the building.

http://www.counterpunch.org/Fisk07242006.html

[pelsar]

20. the war is not about marxism...

marism is a philosophy that simply goes against the changing needs and individualism of humans...

on that interesting note:

http://marxist.org.uk/htm_docs/comm12.htm for the same holds true for Hizballa and Lebanon

...But how is it possible for us to call ourselves Marxists and support a war waged by a coalition of rich western liberal democracies against the government of a poor “Third World” country? We would turn the question round: how it is possible that Marxism has been so corrupted and distorted that “Marxists” prefer to see thousands more Iraqis die in the torture chambers of the Ba’ath, and millions more suffer under the iniquities excused (not caused) by the UN sanctions, rather than admit that socialists not only can but must support even the worst bourgeois democracy against even the least bad tyranny? For the beginnings of an answer, let us consider just some of the transparent and disgusting lies generated and spread by the western “left” before and during the war

.....

On the other hand, as long as we are to be ruled by capitalist states, which would you rather be ruled by: a coalition of liberal democracies that pay at least lipservice to free speech, or any number of ruthless genocidal dictatorships that want to revive the worst aspects of the Middle Ages (and we don’t mean folk songs or William Morris wallpapers)? If you can’t or won’t answer that question, how can you claim to be interested in contemporary politics, as opposed to useless dreaming about the politics of the distant future?

.....

It sticks in the throat to have to admit that for once the western powers have done more to promote justice than the western “left” has. It is nauseating to find “Marxists” trying to ensure that any human beings should go on living under a dictatorship. Such are the contradictions of advanced capitalism.

[IndianaGreen]

21. The war is about civilians being bombed in Lebanon

What part of war crime don't you understand when Israel Radio reported today that the IDF has been ordered to bomb 10 buildings in Beirut for every rocket that lands in Haifa?

Does Lidice ring in bell?

[pelsar]

22. and the war is about Hizballa terrorism

Marxists of war crime don't you understand?...when the Lebanese govt allows a militia to murder citizens of a country next door?.....

so Hizballa and the Lebanese are allowed to kill but israel isnt to stop it?....(I suppose for you the status quo of Hizballa attacking across the border for the last 6 years was just fine, since only israelis were terrorized....

and as in the article i listed...terrorizing by Hizballa in Lebanon seems to be irrelevant...care to comment on the article?...it is after all a view from a staunch marxist whos says very clearly, that liberation by capitalistic democracies is far better then remaining under fascist dictatorships (like Hizballa)....or are you one of those "marxists" who he clearly states have little understanding of it?

i shall again list my favorite sentence:

It is nauseating to find “Marxists” trying to ensure that any human beings should go on living under a dictatorship. Such are the contradictions of advanced capitalism.

i guess your one of those
_______

but you changed the subject:..lets back up, first you claimed genocide according to the definition, so please answer:

..national, ethnic, racial or religious group ...which one applies to the hizballa since they are the targets of the IDF

and you quickly (without answering of course) moved on to war crimes....which again is far more complex than a simple picture of a destroyed neighborhood in Beirut. We can if your willing attempt to discuss the alternatives that would disarm Hizballa and let the S. Lebanese army take back their country..but somehow i doubt you want to go there, because its reasonable to assume that they wouldnt disarm "peacefully". Or perhaps your one of those marxist that believe some people should live under fascist/religious militias because to save them would cost too many lives and involve too much destruction...a valid argument for some no doubt.

[IndianaGreen]

23. Gee, I thought that this was all about getting the IDF detainees released

or was this just a lie, another pretext for war, just as our Beloved Leader used WMDs as a pretext to attack Iraq?

Seems like some of us on the Left haven't forgotten Gilad Shalit, Ehud Goldwasser, and Eldad Regev.

[pelsar]

24. its about 6 years of attacks...

damn...changed the subject again didnt you?

so we'll answer this one and see if you can backtrack abit: Hizballa has been attacking israel for the last 6 years with previous attempts to kidnap soldiers...the israeli public/IDF ran out of patience.....

it could be your not aware since when hizballa attacks it doesnt seem to get in the news much, but its been going on ever since israel left lebanon.

some on the left may "care" for the soldiers who were kidnapped, but dont care enough to prevent it from happening again and again and again...nor do those on the left care enough about the lebanese who live under hizballa fascism or those israelis up north who get shot at every now and again.....kind of caring, but not too much.

[jonnyblitz]

26. you are nothing but a MARKEST, IG!

:P. ok, i will stop...

[eyl]

36. Why the hell

are so many people capable (or unwilling) to recognize that actions may have more than one cause?

Yes, this was sparked by the captives - but it was also caused by the cumulative effect of Hizbullah attacks on Israel's northern border as well as their rearming. Any analysis which focuses solely on the soldiers is doomed to error.

[barb162]

41. It's about the soldiers, the hez rockets, the hez leaders

(hiding behind innocent civilians in Beirut), etc. How does Israel go after the Hez leaders if they are in Beirut? Does Israel have the right to go after terrorist leaders?

[Andromeda]

32. Stop twisting my words.

And stop making judgements about me when you don't even know me. If you don't want to be called on your bullshit then stop making outrageous assumptions.

I know you are a Marxist. That explains a lot.

[Andromeda]

34. How would you like it if I said you are enabling terrorists?

The only war crimes I see being committed in the Middle East are the ones I see perpetrated by H'zbollah, Al Qaeda and Islamic Jihad.

[barb162]

40. War crimes are not acceptable but self defense is acceptable

[Violet_Crumble]

17. Markism rawks!!! So does Morkism!!

n/t

[jonnyblitz]

25. no offense, but what in hell is MARKISM? nt

[Andromeda]

33. I's actually spelled Marxism.

Its Communism. Look it up, read about it and learn about the failure of Communism to meet the needs of populations it was supposed to help. It's just another form of authoritarianism, only far-left as opposed to Fascism which is far-right.

Russia was a Communist country, China is and so is Cuba. They're not the only ones.

[Scurrilous]

30. I guess you missed this one:

Excusing hostility to Israel’s right to exist - “Left” anti-semitism is no myth

http://www.workersliberty.org/node/5847

This article has been posted numerous times and it's from - *gasp* - a Socialists website.

On edit:

Why didn't you voice your objection to 'markist/leninist/communist/socialist publications' back in April when you replied on this thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=121486&mesg_id=121499

Andromeda (1000+ posts) Fri Apr-07-06 05:46 AM
Response to Original message

3. Great article, BtA.

Sometimes things actually are what they appear to be.

[barb162]

39. And racism is rampant against Israel in Egypt, Syria, Iran

etc.

[Waya]

27. I agree that maybe Genocide is too strong.....

...a word. But its definately a crime against humanity. What Israel is doing is despicable, immoral and out of proportion.

[Igel]

28. During the bombing campaign in Kosovo,

only the most hardened ideologues would have argued that the US's bombing of a train was intentionally targeting civilians.

The full footage showed the targeting of an empty bridge, and a train that came around the corner and went onto the bridge after the missile was fired.

Not parallel, but similar in some respects. The target you kill isn't always the target you aimed for, or even the one you thought you targeted.

After the footage from the bomber was released it got airplay in pro-Serbian/anti-Albanian outlets. It clearly showed the bomb striking the train dead-on, with the passenger cars crashing into the valley below. The preceding portion of the footage was somehow irrelevant.

There were cries of war crimes. Even if the train wasn't targeted, it was clearly a bit of civilian infrastructure. The civilians killed didn't care if they were killed by callous Americans or murderous Serbs, they were just as dead. Etc., etc. When the full footage was finally foisted upon them, the response was predictable: What, the mighty, omniscient American forces didn't know a train was coming? Clinton wasn't trying to preserve Albanian-Kosovars' lives, he was trying to kill Muslims.

[barb162]

43. There's never been a "perfect "war .

[barb162]

38. Civilians are getting nailed on every side here

[Tom Joad]

29. What bullshit!

I thought i would channel the wise and respected Jim Sagle here.

[barb162]

42. Channel the wise? What does THAT mean? Is that mysticism

or something similar.

[furman]

31. Jewish Virtual Library on Proportionality

Please see an article I posted about the Proportionality issue from the Jewish Virtual Library:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x138986