i came across anti-semitism here in phoenix for the first time.

[catmother]

i've been living here for almost 17 years -- not a jewish area -- in fact, mostly christian. i've only had one jewish health care provider in all these years and he was from south africa.

today i was in my favorite restaurant eating. i ran into an elderly couple that i had met once before. they are originally from new york, like me, so when i met them the first time we talked about new york.

anyway today they were in the restaurant -- i didn't realize it until i got up to leave and they waived to me. i went over to say hello, asked them how they were doing, yadda, yadda, yadda. then the subject of the mid-east came up. i mentioned the DU and they looked at each other so i'm assuming that they're republicans. anyway the woman started to say things like "i don't like what israel is doing -- they've gone to far". i tried explaining that yes it's terrible that innocent lives are being lost on both sides, but that Hizbollah and other terrorists groups need to be stopped. by this time we were outside and she said "the jews -- they say they're the chosen people". "they think they're better than everyone else" and then she said "we're catholic" and proceeded to tell me a catholic joke about kerry. but i'm thinking how did she know that i wasn't jewish. many people think i am.

so next time i see them it will be a polite hello and that's all.

i justed wanted to share this and i felt the I/P forum was the best place.

[IndianaGreen]

1. I am sorry you were exposed to such crap, catmother

Gentleman's Agreement is a wonderful film about anti-Semitism in "polite society." Gregory Peck pretends to be Jewish and he soon finds out that he is treated like a pariah.

[DemFromMem]

2. Lately I feel a lot more hate coming from the people in my own side

I am getting emails every day from Jewish friends reporting on blatantly hateful messages coming from the left and not the right. It's like what the Republicans are doing to the Hispanics and the gays. Fortunately, the anti-Semitism seems to be limited to an extremist segment of the Democratic Party and our elected officials are still acting responsibly.

The extremists in our party should really question why they are lining up with Pat Buchanan and Robert Novak. These are not exactly the most tolerant people in America.

[Andromeda]

4. I agree.

[liberalhistorian]

9. I am very sorry that you are having to experience

that kind of bullshit from our own side. People are rightfully angry at Israel's actions (I know you disagree with me on that, so let's just agree to disagree), but they really need to separate their disagreement with Israel from Jews themselves.

You can disagree with and/or criticize some of Israel's actions without being anti-semitic at all, just like you can disagree with our country's actions and not be anti-American; unfortunately, this situation appears to be bringing out the worst in people who really ARE anti-semitic and who've just been hiding it well.

[catmother]

20. i'm fine with agreeing to disagree. we're all entitled to our

opinions -- it's just that people are getting really nasty when they disagree.

i think you're right. the people who have been hiding it are coming out.

i've said several times that american jews and israeli jews are quite different. all they share is a religion. i've had many jewish friends and boyfriends and i also dated 2 israeli guys back in the late 60s when i was between husbands. they were completely different. it was an interesting experience for me.

i just realized that you were talking to #2 poster and i thought it was me. so now you have my 2 cents for what it's worth.

[Andromeda]

3. Anti-Semitism is so pervasive...

that it is not only acceptable but common in some circles.

It's very sad and I wish people would open their minds because ignorance is dangerous.

[JackNewtown]

5. I agree nt

[catmother]

6. i went through enough of that crap with my in-laws. they were

anti-semitic, anti-italian, anti puerto rican. you name it. my husband is not that way at all. his sister is.

my late mother-in-law always used to say to me "you're like a jew". i'm not jewish, but she thought i acted "jewish". she never met my sister, but i showed her a picture of my sis and she said "she looks like a spic". even though our heritage is german-irish, my father and grandmother tended toward olive skin and very dark hair and eyes. my sister and i have those looks. no one believes that we're not italian, or latin. i've even been asked if i was mid-eastern. but i put up with all her nasty remarks to keep peace in the family.

so i was really shocked by this woman's remarks. had she not told me she was italian, i would have thought she was jewish. maybe next time i see her i might just be facetious and say "gee before you told me you were italian, i would have sworn that you were jewish".

my parents, fortunately, even though they divorced when i was 15, were much more liberal and i'm thankful for that. maybe it's because they were democrats. lol

on edit: my sister is NanceGreggs. some of you are probably familiar with her great articles and posts on the DU.

this is a link to some pictures of nance and i when we were younger. the DU lounge was asking for old pictures and i couldn't resist putting us together.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=5386880#5391577

you can see by the pictures what i was talking about. do we look like irish-german girls? lol

[Andromeda]

7. Great pictures, catmother!

It's difficult to tell ethnicity by pictures sometimes. People generally associate blue-eyed blondes with German ancestry and red hair and freckles with the Irish.

My grandfather was Irish and he had black hair and the Gabriel Byrne nose. I've known a lot of dark-haired German and Irish people and Jewish people with reddish-blonde hair, so I've stopped trying to guess anybody's nationality.

Nancy is a talented writer and I've read all her articles. You look enough alike to be twins, almost.

Your late mother-in-law sounds like a female Archie Bunker. You must have the patience of a saint to put up with her all those years.

Peace

[catmother]

8. yes. it is hard to tell ethnicity. on my mother's side, her mother

was german descent, she was blonde and blue eyed. my grandpa, who was irish had dark hair and eyes, but fair skin. they had 7 children. my mom has dark hair, brown eyes, but fair skin like her father and her sister was blonde, blue eyed. the 5 brothers varied. some had blue eyes, some brown. our little sister (she just turned 52) has brown hair, brown eyes and fair skin like our mom. nance and i are more like our dad's side.

one thing i loved about new york was the inter-marriage. irish marrying italians, italians marrying jews, etc. i think it makes interesting looking children. when nance first moved to canada and i went up to visit, i was shocked. everyone seemed to look the same. i mentioned this and nance said it was because they didn't inter-marry. it's probably much different now with all the people from various countries living in canada.

well thanks for your post. i'm happy that you've read nance's articles. we're very proud of her. it was through her that i found DU. whenever they published an article she would e-mail me with the link. finally one day i thought i would look into it. so here i am. even though nance was writing for about a year and a half she wasn't posting. she starting posting right after i did. it's funny, sometimes we find ourselves on the same thread actually posting at the same time.

[Andromeda]

17. It's interesting how inter-marriage was or is defined,

I alway think of inter-marriage as being unions of mixed race such as: African Americans and No. European; Filipino and Japanese; No/So European and Asian, etc., but I guess there's intermarriage between cultures too---though it can be both religious and racial differences or maybe just one of the two elements.

It's taboo in some communities for family members to marry outside acceptable circles determined by their families. Pre-arranged marriage is still practiced in some cultures, especially in the Middle East. Sometimes it happens in the U.S. but it's not widely known.

It's common for some people in Canada to huddle together and be guided by their cultural or ethnic traditions. Studies have shown that people are more comfortable with others who are more like themselves but I can't imagine being married to someone exactly like myself. I think it would wear me out.

It's a bigger world now with many different types of people occupying the planet together. Maybe that's what makes the world more interesting---and frustrating at the same time.

[catmother]

21. my first husband was italian. we did not get along. he had some

very old fashioned ideas.

i have been with my 2nd husband for 36 years. we have similar ethnic backgrounds. so we share a lot of memories of different foods, etc. from our childhood, but he was raised by racist parents and i was not. but we are also very different. he's quiet and dresses in dark clothes and i'm happy when i'm wearing hot pink or yellow and i talk to everyone (i can be quite loud too) and i'm agressive -- i have conversations with the people in the grocery store who slice my cold cuts, the checkers, everyone. he's more reserved. so i guess we complement each other. we laugh and say no one else would put up with either one of us.

[liberalhistorian]

10. Isn't it interesting how some people,

like your husband and sister, can grow up in the same household with the same parents, listening to the same crap from them, and yet be totally different in that regard? I've always found that amazing.

My stepdad was second-generation Polish and his family was/is horrendously racist, bigoted, anti-semitic, you name it. But he's as pure as the driven snow when it comes to things like that; he even had black and Jewish friends in high school in the fifties. Same with my mom.

[catmother]

11. i'll tell you a funny story. my in-laws were at my house visiting.

two of our friends came over. 2 women -- lovely, beautiful, both of them -- great personalities. my mother-in-law fell in love with them especially the little blonde blue eyed one. she invited them to her house for dinner with my husband and i.

we had a fun time. everyone was drinking except me and my husband. my father-in-law was playing the piano. i don't remember how it happened but my mother-in-law began doing the "hora" with the dark haired one. my husband was taking pictures like crazy.

so another time we were at my in-laws and my mother in law started to ask why these girls didn't have boyfriends. she got very aggressive and finally realized that they were lesbians and we told her that Andrea (the dark haired one was jewish). she was shocked. i said "does that mean you don't want anything to do with them anymore". she said "no, but i don't believe in gay rights". she kept saying that. finally i said "would you want your little virginia (the blonde irish one) being discriminated against in a job or getting an apartment? she didn't know what to say.

and of course, we always joked with her that we had pictures of her doing the hora with a jewish lesbian.

on edit: my husband and his sister are completley different. she's very traditional -- just gave her daughter a big wedding that she really could not afford and my husband and i have lived "out of the box" all our lives. well, when he's at work he behaves himself. lol

my sister in law is all about material things, designer labels, etc. she shops at Bergdoff Goodman in new york. i'm sure we have a much larger income than she does and we just live simple lives. like who cares about designer labels and all that crap.

[liberalhistorian]

12. LOL! Talk about the

ultimate Archie Bunker nightmare!

[catmother]

13. we still have the pictures in a photo album. i always say that

my father in law was archie bunker.

we had a little bit in our family. my maternal grandfather was irish and was not too crazy about italians. when my mother brought my father home for the family to meet him, after my dad left my grandfather said to my mother "what is that fellow IIIItalian". he put a big emphasis on the I. grandpa also wanted a grandson who would carry down the family name. well my uncle married a woman of italian descent and they had a son who when he was in the Air Force met a Korean girl. they married and had 3 wonderful children who are all grown now. but when it happened my grandfather had already passed and my mom said "grandpa must be turning over in his grave saying BeJesus a Chink". lol

My first husband was italian, but by that time (1960) my grandfather had gotten past the Italian crap. by the way grandpa was president of a democratic club for as long as i could remember. he owned a bar, but you had to be a member of the club to drink there". my whole family are democrats. sometimes i say i was a democrat in-utero. lol

[barb162]

15. Are your in-laws related to people I know

or are there just a lot of these characters around. That was a WONDERFUL post!

[MrPrax]

14. Interesting...

It didn't strike me as particularly noxious...

Is this true?

Jews as a chosen people

Chosenness as superiority

In early medieval Europe, during a time of intense persecution of Jews, the idea developed that chosenness meant that God loves Jews more than other human beings, or that Jews were in some way inherently superior to non-Jews. This philosophy was first widely taught by Yehuda Halevi in his Kuzari.

A mystical version of this idea exists in parts of the Zohar, one of the primary works of Kabbalah, esoteric Jewish mysticism. The Zohar comments on the Biblical verse which states "Let the waters teem with swarms of creatures that have a living soul" as follows: "The verse 'creatures that have a living soul,' pertains to the Jews, for they are the sons of God, and from God come their holy souls....And the souls of the other nations, from where do they come? Rabbi Elazar says that they have souls from the impure left side, and therefore they are all impure, defiling anyone who comes near them." (Zohar commentary on Genesis)

The Raya Mehemna, a somewhat later work printed with the Zohar, has a similar view. One section states: "Israel merited that God called them 'men,' as it is written 'But you My flock, the flock of My pasture, you are men,' 'If any man of you brings an offering.' Why are they called 'men'? For it is written 'And you who cling to the Lord your God'. This means you and not the other nations, and because of this 'you are men', you are called men..." (Raya Mehemna, commentary on Torah portion Yitro, page 86a)

This view was accepted by the founder of the Lubavitch Hasidic dynasty, Shneur Zalman of Liady, in his Tanya. A section in this book holds that non-Jewish souls come from unclean kelipot (left-over shells of the universe's creation), while Jewish souls are of a higher character. (Tanya, Likkutay Amarim I, 5-11 and 6a). This book is accepted as authoritative by all Lubavitch Jews. Some rabbis, including Adin Steinsaltz, downplay or significantly reinterpret this passage. <1>

Extensive Wiki Article on this specific set of presumptions

I never got too choked up about this, because...well...Jewish people used to believe elements of this themselves. The rationale offered is that usually that such ideas usually give rise in the psychology of the Oppressed. American slaves tended to adapt elements of the Christian Bible that put themselves in the position of slaves and the Chosen people...

But you really should have just told them that...some obscure sects still follow this crap, but this is not modern Judeaism and is not accepted by either Orthodox, Conservative or Reform branches. The same as the Catholic Church...they used to think witches wouldn't burn. But Catholics don't believe that anymore. Do they?

You might want to do the reverse and mention that would, they as Catholics, only want to known simply through what Matthew Fox writes or the Opus Dei think?

Don't discount everything as racist -- take it as an opportunity to inform. They sound stupid and might appreciate the information and pass it along the next time they hear some idiot say this.

[catmother]

18. thank you very much. we have quite a few books on the

Kabbalah. my husband was interested in learning it. there's only so much info out there. i think the rest is secret and can only be taught by someone very knowledgeable -- not the madonna, britney spears crap, but the real Kabbalah.

my husband and i both studied metaphysics with a spiritual teacher. well i actually studied with 2 of them. our teacher is now on the other side. he passed about 10 years ago. my other teacher, suzane northrup is still around. i believe her website is called "the seance". she's still in new york.

we have quite a collection of books from voodoo to theosophy. i just thought recently that i should get back to my studies. haven't been involved since i moved to phoenix.

[barb162]

16. I think it's just all over

and it comes out in spades at times like this

[catmother]

19. hi barb. i started a thread earlier that might interest you

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1729546

after all the anti-semitism i've been coming across this last week i decided to start a thread about it.

[barb162]

22. VERY interesting topic these days, isn't it

I went over there

Thanks for letting me know
:hi: