Who are the real terrorists in the Middle East?

[malaise]

http://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/article1197235.ece

<snip>
What exactly is being defended by the violence in Gaza and Lebanon? Is it the citizens of Israel or the nature of the Israeli state? I suggest the latter. Israel's statehood is based on an unjust ideology which causes indignity and suffering for those who are classified as non-Jewish by either a religious or ethnic test. To hide this primordial immorality, Israel fosters an image of victimhood. Provoking violence, consciously or unconsciously, against which one must defend oneself is a key feature of the victim-mentality. By perpetuating such a tragic cycle, Israel is a terrorist state like no other.
-------------

Could not say it better.

[ShortnFiery]

1. I don't know how a Powerful Military power dole out

harsh and many times CRUEL collective punishment (bulldozing homes of suicide bombers) and all the while can claim VICTIM STATUS without missing a beat?

[jonnyblitz]

11. Bulldozing the homes is terrible. I don't know how a "supposed"

civilized people could so something like that. It's pure racism. It's ugly. There are two videos posted in the I/P forum that shows it all for anybody to see.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x137547
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x137194

[cool user name]

28. Thank you for referencing those links.

Those two vidoes need to be seen.

[bryant69]

2. OK

But it seems unlikely that the members of Hamas or Hezbollah are looking for any kind of accomedation with the Israelis either. They've been pretty frank about what they'd like to see happen to the Israeli people and the nation of Israel.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[bryant69]

4. The article does pretty clearly call for an end to the nation of Israel

Not sure what happens after that.

[malaise]

8. Who was it who said from

The Nile to the Euphrates again? I don't think anyone here is calling for the destruction of Israel but the Israeli state is evil.

[bryant69]

12. OK if you feel the Israeli state is evil, why aren't you

calling for it's destruction?

And I didn't say anybody here was, I said the article was.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[malaise]

20. Simply because you don't

kill people to achieve your view of the world. There are decent people living in Israel. It is for them to remove the state. The same is true for the US and the rest of this evil planet.

[bryant69]

22. Yeah but the state is not the people

You can call for the destruction of Israel while wishing the Israeli people well, in theory (in practice, it takes a certain amount of naivite).

[malaise]

23. Indeed

but when the Israeli hero said that Israel should be from the Nile to the Euphrates, he was certainly not speaking about the state. He was speaking about land, water and all other resources. Clearly the people who have lived on those lands for thousands of years were irrelevant in that Zionist vision.

[bryant69]

24. Should all israelis be punished for one Zionist Extremist?

[ShortnFiery]

45. "There are decent people living in Israel."

May I please extrapolate? There also "decent people" in *all* of the Arab States and refugee camps. Seriously! Every population has their true moderates and people of HONOR AND GOOD WILL.

I do believe that our reward for being true humanitarians and showing kindness to all of Gods Creatures is ONLY realized in Heaven. However, what would be "beautiful beyond words" is to ELEVATE THE TRUE MODERATES, those who can empathize with "the other side" ... True Diplomats who could work toward a true compromise among Israelis and All others in the ME?

I know this is impossible, but it is only through INTEGRATION that true understanding an empathy can be forged. If the GOOD and CARING peoples of the middle east are not heard through INTENSIVE INTERACTIONS of these disparate groups. There will not ever be an end to the hate.

IMO, integration of all peoples within the ME is the only way. Just like the USA, in theory is a melting pot of all races and cultures.

IMO (and many others), they need to send Retired Maj Gen Anthony Zinni to help with the Diplomatic Relations. He is one highly intelligent and skilled negotiator.

[Igel]

46. A few Jewish loonies, construing the original but

promise in the Torah that they'd stretch from the river of Egypt to the Euphrates; but the TaNaKh claims this was fulfilled. A few Jewish loonies still think it.

Far more Muslim loonies believe that most Zionists believe it than there are Zionists that actually believe it.

Khomeini, Arafat, many others have popularized the tale. Some look to a coin whose shape, mangled over the millennia, is construed as the Nile-Euphrates nonsense; others believe that the Israeli flag shows the Star of David between the Nile and Euphrates.

Consider it mostly a myth that people that hate Israel like because it makes it justifiable to hate Israel.

Now Arafat's arranging his keffiyeh to represent a Palestine without Israel ...

[Meshuga]

47. Yep

A small group of Jewish loonies say that and it becomes "proof" of Israel's big "plan for expansion".

Now, even the logo that Arafat used to wear on his uniform showed the State of Palestine as all of Israel. But that was okay, I guess. :crazy:

[mike_c]

17. the problem is that the ESTABLISHMENT of the state of Israel...

...perpetrated a profound injustice which has never been addressed by the world. Instead, it has festered. Until some just solution to the "Palestinian problem" is found, Israel will always face foes who would address that injustice the simplistic way-- by undoing it.

[bryant69]

18. There is no just solution to it

There is no just solution to what the United States did to the Native Americans or to the Blacks.

The best we can do, probably, is to find something that most people can live with and hope for the best.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Spinoza]

37. Israel

[cool user name]

29. Hamas did offer a 100 year hudna ..

To which Palestinians continued to be killed.

It's called "relative calm."

[MrPrax]

32. Same script...

Yes we know...all the arabs are so insane with rage towards Israel that it makes it impossible for Israel to use anything else but force. Negotiations are impossible so they must use, as evidence is mounting, chemical weapons against innocent Arabs.

Did anyone think that after the Nazis were defeated, that Germany would disappear? When we faced the Soviets down, did anyone really believe that Russia would disappear?

Of course not...and that is the real fear of the Zionist. The Zionist will be forced to quit Israel. Or they will be removed.

[Norquist Nemesis]

3. Brits aren't happy with Israel, especially this week after celebrating

the bombing of the King David hotel.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,173-2277717,00.html

AS ISRAEL wages war against Hezbollah “terrorists” in Lebanon, Britain has protested about the celebration by right-wing Israelis of a Jewish “act of terrorism” against British rule 60 years ago this week.

The rightwingers, including Binyamin Netanyahu, the former Prime Minister, are commemorating the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, the headquarters of British rule, that killed 92 people and helped to drive the British from Palestine.

They have erected a plaque outside the restored building, and are holding a two-day seminar with speeches and a tour of the hotel by one of the Jewish resistance fighters involved in the attack.

Simon McDonald, the British Ambassador in Tel Aviv, and John Jenkins, the Consul-General in Jerusalem, have written to the municipality, stating: “We do not think that it is right for an act of terrorism, which led to the loss of many lives, to be commemorated.”
<snip>

[gula]

14. Jewish = resistance fighters; Arabs = terrorists nt

[Norquist Nemesis]

16. Pretty much

Interesting how they dressed up as "Arabs" huh? Then have the gall to blame the Brits on top of it.

[furman]

26. Wrong. Israel is fighting to survive...

Israel fights for her very survival.
Hezbollah and Hamas and other terrorist organizations fight to destroy Israel.

[cool user name]

30. That's rather emotional since ...

Israel's borders have increased since inception.

Israel does have the capacity to enlarge.

Both Hamas and Hezbollah, though their intentions are horrendous, aren't capable of eliminating Israel.

All this while Israel still occupies Palestinian land and refers to the territories as "disputed."

The Orwellianess is offensive!

[cali]

33. None of this happened in a vacume

If the Palestinians had accepted a state in 1948, rather than going for option B; kicking all the Jews out and establishing a nation on all the land, they might have a vibrant nation, alsmost 60 years old. If they had formed a nation between 1948 and 1967, they'd have a nation. In other words, part of this is the palestinians fault. They missed opportunities to have a country.

[cool user name]

36. Why should they have accepted a country on half their land?

And second, you present this as an "either/or" proposition.

Indeed, nothing does happen in a vaccum. That's why the Palestinians rejected having half their land stolen from them, as would I.

Yet, there were plans out there to have a binational state. Ben-Gurion and his cohorts couldn't have that. They wanted an exclusive state (or as exclusive as could be without drawing the world's ire). So they had to let the few Arabs that weren't cleansed stay yet they were treated as a fifth column until the sixties.

Yeah, what a lovely noble country that behaves that way.

And yes, I do fault the Palestinians for some of their behavior. I don't indict all Israelis or all Palestinians but I do recognize the original sin and that the onus is on Israel to correct a grievous historical injustice by at the very least, clearing the settlements from the West Bank, and letting the Palestinians have a state on 22% of their land (which the majority are content with).

Israel still can't give 22% back and that's inexcusable and then cries that she is fighting for her existence when she can barely recognize the people that she oppresses and occupies.

Orwellian offensiveness!

[cali]

39. I find your answer confusing.

Are you suggesting that because the Palestinians wanted all of the land from the jordan River to the sea, that their choice to refuse to sign on to the UN partition plan made sense, and that they are indeed entitled to it from river to sea?

[cool user name]

40. You may wish to re-acquaint yourself with my previous post ...

Because your reply seems like a mischaracterization from what was previously typed.

[cali]

41. Even glancing over your previous

post, your point is unclear. Nevermind.

[wellst0nev0ter]

38. Jews Were 35 % Of The Population And Owned 10% Of The Land

And yet thet were given 55 percent of the territories. I have yet to hear any logical contortions to justify the arbitrary and unfair partition.

[Spazito]

5. Wow, a stark condemnation of the actions of Israel

Not sure what to say beyond that.

[cali]

6. Yawn.

Is there a special running on leftist hyperbole to be applied toward Israel? Lord knows Israel deserves harsh criticism, but this 'Israel is the spawn of evil' and no other nation comes near to committing its misdeeds' is both predictable and not enlightening.

[malaise]

7. MSMachine is doing the job for

the 'Right' wing. Reich, whatever.

[cali]

9. Ah, yes.

Another overly broad generalization, that certainly doesn't hold true for such papers as the NYT

[cool user name]

31. Yawn indeed considering the strawman you've employed. n/t

[MrPrax]

34. Being a leftist forum...

one is apt to find a lot of leftist hyperbole. :eyes:

But I would imagine that the harsh criticism is in direct measure to the harsh criminal slaughter of the Lebanese people which is becoming more and more shocking as one reads there might be victims of chemical weapons.

Now you are right about the hyperbole: "no other nation comes near to committing its misdeeds'" is hyperbolic.

But in fairness if the statement read: "no other nation...has exempted itself from nuclear scruntiny",then this would not be hyperbole; but a statement of fact. The harsh critics are really saying that laws and their moral standards should be brought to bear equally on all, but Israel DOES reject this.

"no other nation" has reserved it's right in this conflict to set it's timetable, it's own objectives, it's own level of security and THEN bluntly demand from the world community the right to act ARBITRARILY.

Arbitrary means "no other nation".

[vincent_vega_lives]

43. Never understood

exactly why leftist is supposed to = Anti-Israel. It's a very complex issue that belies simple left-right categorization IMO.

[TahitiNut]

10. The codependent human melodrama of Villain-Victim-Rescuer

There has never been a Villain in human history that did not claim to be a Victim.

:shrug:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. Starting when Cain whacked Abel.

# And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
# And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
# But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
# And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
# If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
# And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
# And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

Genesis 4:4-9, King James version.

[TahitiNut]

25. Some see that as a legend based in ...

... the totalitarian agriculturalist (farmer) culture taking over from the herdsman/nomad culture. As agriculture became totalitarian (denying both wild and domesticated animals/fauna access to the growing "fruits," as well as hunter-gatherers), those peoples still in the nomadic modes (hunter-gatherers and herdsmen) resented the "dog in a manger" notion that these people had an entitlement to food that they themselves weren't eating at that time. The 'privatization' of land was, at some time in the past, a 'new' idea. It's difficult for us, who've taken "the way things are" for granted, to imagine the collision of cultures, I think - like the Europeans coming to the Americas with their presumptions of fixed boundaries and land Lords, I guess. I think the Middle East is currently an inheritance of the errors made in a similar collision of cultures - irrespective of the theological accoutrements. I doubt any significant cultural paradigm has ever existed without some corresponding theological rationalization.

[indepat]

13. The real terrorist in the Middle East are those who commit terrorist acts

[CuteNFuzzy]

15. and what constitutes a "terrorist act"?

It's only terrorism when 'they' do it.

It's counter-terrorism when 'we' do it.

[vincent_vega_lives]

44. Deliberate/intentional targeting of civilians with violence

in order to terrorize a population, for the purpose of political influence.

[Balbus]

19. The Jews, of course!

:eyes:

[cool user name]

27. I agree. n/t

[Taverner]

35. Terrorist is such a stupid word

How about murderously insane or psychopathic?

By those definitions I would say just about everyone there right now.

[newyorican]

42. /signed

I would only amend your sentiment to limit it to any and all in the region not wanting (themselves and/or their neighbors) to live a normal, peaceful life.

It's truly sad that the vast majority of all who live in the region would otherwise want to be bothered by things such as planning the evening meal or catching their favorite TV show.

That vocal and somewhat insane minority really needs to be tossed into a giant steel cage with each other and have Pay-Per-View televise the event. The winner(s) should promptly be awarded a cookie (or pie) and launched on an experimental rocket into the sun (also televised).

Then announce plans to repeat the event at a conflict to be determined within a year and see how many of these old farts, that send kids to fight in wars, get the message.