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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:37 PM
Original message
Israel wants to end war as soon as able
Notice the defensive tone. If you parse his explanation, he wants something or other to justify his misjudgement is starting this mess.

JERUSALEM: Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has said he hoped to end Israel's war against Lebanese Hizbollah guerrillas as quickly as possible, though only once it achieves its goals, a parliamentary official said.

Olmert, who made the comments to a key parliamentary committee, had until now stressed more the determination to keep fighting Hizbollah than to end the fighting quickly.

"We want to stop the operation as fast as possible, but we will not conclude it until we achieve the results which would justify the price we have paid and which would prevent us paying a price which we cannot pay," Olmert was quoted as saying by a parliamentary official.

The official said Olmert had also declined to categorically rule out an eventual exchange of prisoners for two soldiers whose capture by Hizbollah guerrillas on July 12 prompted Israel's offensive.


Stuff.NZ
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BillZBubb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. Olmert is war criminal. He could have ended this mess anytime.
And the capture of the soldiers didn't prompt anything, it was the excuse Isreal had been seeking to obliterate Lebanon.
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. how is he a war criminal
please elaborate

also please elaborate on how you know/think that israel was looking for an excuse to obliterate lebanon.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. based on those articles
he is NOT a war criminal. this was not a war of agression, lest you forget hezbollah took hostage 2 israeli soldiers captive WHILE ON ISRAELI SOIL.


let me repeat that WHILE ON ISRAELI SOIL.

that in itself is an act of war.


care to try again?

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PotownHero Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Based on that assessment
the United States should be at war with Mexico. In my opinion Israel escalated the situation beyond what was needed...and by the way how did Israel kidnap the Palestinians that are in their custody?
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. how do you figure
that the US should be at war with mexico


if any palestinians in israel are not charged with crimes they should be released or charged, tried.

those people that are in their custody, were not kidnapped they were arrested. however they should be charged or released.

they were arrested while Gaza and the West bank were under israeli occupation, which is allowed under the geneva convention.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. hizbollah
is part of the lebanese government. they have seats in the parliment and 2 ministry portfolios.

the hizbollah terrorists were supposed to be disarmed by the lebanese government, but they had refused. the UN peace keeping force has idly by while hizbollah fired rockets into israel prior to the taking of the israeli soldiers.

the hizbollah terrorists hide delibertly among civilians, wearing civilian clothing (which by the way makes them war criminals in itself) what do you expect israel to do? stand by while their soldiers are kidnapped? while rockets are launched into their country?


do you care to stop with personal attacks?
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BillZBubb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. There you go with the lies again. Pure propaganda....
"the hizbollah terrorists hide delibertly among civilians, wearing civilian clothing (which by the way makes them war criminals in itself) what do you expect israel to do?"

Hezbollah IS a group of civilians. They aren't the military of any country. The are where they live. That doesn't make them war criminals except in Israeli propaganda. This Israeli propaganda point is so pathetic that even a child should be able to see how laughable it is. What do you expect Hezbollah to do? Sit in a field and let Israel use American paid for tanks and F-16s to blow them to bits?

The war criminals are the ones who use advanced jet fighter bombers to murder civilians while claiming they aren't targeting civilians. Of course they target civilians, they are indifferent to civilians if they think they have a chance to kill one Hezbollah member. That's a real war crime.
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. hizbollah
civilians? that is the biggest joke i have heard all day. htanks for the laugh.

they are a terror group. operating outside the control of any one country. that is what makes them war criminals.

learn to know what you are talking about.

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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. using hot pursuit?
Israel couldn't do this because Israel was IN Lebanon. It was an infiltration operation and they got caught

There was no border incident...just the big lie.
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Wrong...
hostage 2 israeli soldiers captive WHILE ON ISRAELI SOIL.

You keep posting disinformation? Why do you do that?

This is propaganda...you know that they were captured at Aitaa al-Chaab well inside Lebanon. Hez fighters caught Israel and kill their soldiers, blew up their tank and took them prisoner. Initial reports even went so far as to say they were simply 'arrested' and held. Immediately Hez asked if Israel wanted them back...and we know how Israel responded.

It's been cited and you know this...but you still insist on defending the indefensible. The poster is right -- it is a war crime and a crime against humanity under international law.

Your defense of the indefensible is shocking...



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neoblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. Sure, nobody wants it to last any longer than 'necessary'.
Edited on Wed Jul-26-06 12:56 PM by neoblues
Of course, in this case, it merely means that it will continue until their neighbor is sufficiently reduced to rubble that they (Lebanon) (a) will be a pleasantly harmless neighbor**, and (b) they'll be either welcoming an armed peace-keeping force or thinking twice about letting radicals with rockets operate on their land (or otherwise antagonize their potentially very violent, rather "jumpy" neighbor). Indeed, (b) may be the only way this will work out to Israel's advantage (aside, possibly, from having a "rubble" buffer zone; but that'd likely be temporary, alas).

**and a neighbor that has to spend the next decade just rebuilding their own infrastructure to meet their own basic needs, will be somewhat harmless by definition (though, alas, it doesn't necessarily preclude terrorists from continuing to operate among them--and they'll be all the less able to prevent it whether they want to or not).

Edit: added a few adjectives
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PotownHero Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Inconsistency?
Am I the only one who sees an obvious contradiction with the administrations policy?

In Iraq, there is a freely elected democratic government that cannot control or limit the terrorist activity both inside its country and others (ie: Jordan).

Administration Policy: Build the infrastructure to gain the civilian backing.

In Lebanon, there is a freely elected democratic government that cannot control similar "terroristic" activity.

Administration Policy: Allow Israel to bomb airports, bridges, ports, power stations, and almost all the gas stations in Beirut and south of there. In effect most of the infrastructure.

Do they expect to gain civilian backing or create more resentment?

Am I missing something?





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neoblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. Comparing Apples to Oranges
Aside from noting that the Bush Administration truly doesn't care about the civilian opinion in either country and wouldn't have a clue how to curry favor with either (for lacking the ability, apparently, of appreciating their cultures (nevermind expert analysis provided for their awareness)), these are two relatively separate cases. That is, in IRAQ, the rebuilding of the infrastructure was an expectation, basically a requirement laid at our feet because we were the ones who destroyed the infrastructure. As in, rebuilding is insufficient to placate a populace that expects that as a minimum. So too, the occupation is ours whereas there is going to be no occupation by Israel (and if there were, the key techniques to appeal to the country's citizens would be decided by Israel, rather than us). Even if we admitted a similarity, then in both cases the rebuilding of the infrastructure could then be used as a carrot (or club) with which to manipulate the relative publics.

Alas, in IRAQ, the people, while they complain of the conditions, a determined and significant percentage are far too strongly motivated by sectarian differences as well as pure hatred of the U.S. occupation to respond to the rebuilding efforts. In IRAQ, aside from hoping to get the population to control it's own internal violence, both between their own sub-populations and against our presence, relies less on appealing to the people and more upon force--and it's building/rebuilding the IRAQI "security" forces that is the primary focus. Apparently having electricity is okay, but having cops on the beat is really important.

In Lebanon, the Administration's policy isn't really to destroy the infrastructure, that's just an unintended, undesired side-effect of letting Israel do what it thinks it has to do. Here again, they are entirely indifferent as to the opinion or needs of the local people. They perceive them as being little more than useless and don't appear to hold out any hope that the Lebanese could or would ever manage to provide proper security in their southern region; so again, no appeal. That could change, as you point out. That's only true for the fact that the infrastructure is indeed being destroyed. Being destroyed allows that to make the locals even more dependent upon foreign aid, which we can either help provide or withhold, and on the need for rebuilding efforts, which again, we can either help or hinder. If it had been left intact, in what way would the infrastructure contribute to obtaining the backing of the population? Though I find it curious that Israel has gone out of it's way to strike 'civilian' infrastructure so thoroughly, I proposed that if nothing else, it would act to keep the Lebanese busy looking towards rebuilding--and perhaps that would keep them from supporting Hezbollah. On the other hand, it would ensure they had nothing with which to provide such support. It would also make them all the more interested in actually controlling Hezbollah in order to avoid a repeat--since the loss of valuable infrastructure makes the attack all the more painful/costly. Perhaps that's it. It's the best way to 'hurt' them, to get their attention, while avoiding the politically costly effects of killing civilians. Israel could certainly have exacted a terrible cost in human lives had they decided to do so, but the cost to themselves would have been infinitely worse. So, the best way to "make a point" and show the Lebanese that the costs of allowing attacks on Israel, is to destroy their infrastructure and demolish their buildings (ie. physical damage). Whatever they did, there would be resentment, but of the two possibilities, the physical destruction was the more politically acceptable and would actually result in less resentment than if, say, they'd chosen to kill more people (imagine 10,000+ dead Lebanese versus a few bridges, water purification and electric stations).

Needless to say, though, any questioning of the rationality or wisdom of either our leaders or the Israeli leadership is perfectly reasonable. It's also a proper conclusion to figure that neither has a clue what they're doing. Their choices don't tend to make any sense. So too, as far as the whole region is concerned, the people and their leaders/governments themselves don't make much sense. A more confused, complex, emotionally charged place in which large numbers of factions, each of which has it's own agendas and long standing grudges, could scarcely be found.

Aside from Israel's situation, since they have our absolute support when it comes to questions of either their survival or the existence of their state, if it weren't for the fact that the region (at least as a whole) is extremely rich in Oil, we'd scarcely ever even hear of them. Indeed, they'd be totally backwards, incredibly poverty stricken and unable to even manage to attract our attention. Actually, they'd probably be happier overall, but that's irrelvant. The fact is, other countries in the region do have alot of Oil, and we want it. Our corporations (and by direct extension, the Bush Administration) not only want to guarantee access to and reliability of the oil production, they want to control the perception of instability in the region--which keeps the price of Oil high and the profits outrageous. Beyond that, they just don't care about the people in the region. Even the concerns about IRAN seeking nuclear weapons, has at it's root, concern for controlling access to the Oil (since IRAN would itself be seeking to control it--to our disadvantage).

The differences between policies towards infrastructure isn't inconsistent on purpose (even if it's an intentional choice in IRAQ, which I don't think it is), if only because as far as the policy towards the Lebanese infrastructure has nothing to do with the Bush Administration other than it's existence is an indirect side-effect of Bush letting Isreal do whatever it wants. In a sense, it could be said that the Bush Administration doesn't even have a policy regarding it, though they would naturally express concern over the destruction. Of course, too, naturally they wouldn't do anything about it. They simply don't care what happens there to any extent beyond how the regional stability affects them and their plans elsewhere in the region. It's too much to assume that there is a policy just because they could, if they thought it in their best interests to do so, tell Israel what to do (which, of course, has it's limits too).

Nevertheless, if one thinks the Bush Aministration is controlling everything (or has even thought out a policy for most of the big issues rather than just doing what they have to do), including what Israel does (rather than just enabling them), the observation about the relative approaches to the infrastructure in IRAQ versus Lebanon does almost seem to be a contradiction.
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
5. Sounds like a gambler's rationale...
to keep on betting.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Chasing the pot.
Luck's bound to get better this time.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. Speaking of chasing the pot:
Analysis: For Israel, the conflict in Lebanon is a must-win situation

While we analyze the individual battles and the stages of this campaign, we must not forget the most important aspect of this war: Hezbollah and what this terrorist organization symbolizes must be destroyed at any price. This is the only option that Israel has. We cannot afford a situation of strategic parity between Israel and Hezbollah. If Hezbollah does not experience defeat in this war, this will spell the end of Israeli deterrence against its enemies.

We did not choose this war, but we have reached a strategic crossroad. Following two weeks of fighting, Israel has still not achieved its main goals on the battlefield. The talks about a political solution are still in their early stages. At the same time, Hezbollah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah has issued a declaration from his lair that he intends to move on to the stage that includes launching long-range rockets at Israeli towns south of Haifa.

Hezbollah seeks to step up the war of attrition against civilian targets so that Israel will accept a vague cease-fire that will serve as a stepping stone for future attacks on Israel. Such a cease-fire should not be accepted.

Haaretz (more)

Then we have this in the comments:

Title: Having seen many wars of choice
Name: Mark Lincoln
City: Houston State: Texas
I have seen many wars of choice, and when they start telling you that the war you didn`t have to have (I mean the big one against Lebanon, not the necessary action against Hizbollah), is a `must-win" situation, it means the folks running the war realize they are losing it.

A few questions:
1. if this is a live or die war, then why is not the full force of the IDF being applied to Hizbollah in the south of Lebanon?
2. If this is a must win war, why are bombs being wasted on Red Cross vehicles and fleeing refugees in the north of Lebanon?

Stopping the rocket attacks on Israel and getting northern Israel back to normal ARE VERY IMPORTANT. That is what must be done.

Why is the government not doing all it can to achieve those goals instead of wasting effort on collectively punishing Lebanon?
Why is the government not committing the reserves necessary to protect Israelis instead of trying to win on the cheap?

Why is the Olmert government waging the war it is, instead of the one it must?

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