When are we US Jews going to admit Israel is guilty of war crimes?

[Taverner]

Israel is bombing innocent civilians. This is not speculation, it is truth. Read any newspaper and you'll see it in black white and red.

Whether or not Israel has a right to take out Hezbollah is debateable: I seem to think they're justified, many do not. However, that is not the point. What is the point is that Israel has been deliberately killing innocent civilians, not Hezbollah. By doing this they are not only slaughtering the innocent, they are fucking themselves out of any standing ground they may have had - and putting the rest of us Jews at risk.

Problem is, many of my fellow Jews aren't seeing it that way. They give the same tired arguments about Israel having a "right to exist" as if that were what was being argued. It is not. What's pissing off the rest of the world and this Californian Jew right here is that innocents are being deliberately killed.

[Cary]

1. Just as soon as the enemies of Israel seriously sue for peace. . .

and Isreal flat out spits in their faces.

[Taverner]

2. So you're saying with all that has happened...

The bombing of innocents in Lebanon (a country that did NOT attack Israel) - Israel is justified? Isn't this a bit like saying Bush was justified in invading Iraq? Or Hitler justified in Poland? Or Stalin justified in taking Eastern Europe?

Yes, I dropped the H bomb. It's about time we Jews realized we too can be genocidal.

[arcane1]

4. well-said

replace "Israel" with "America", and "Lebanon" with "Iraq", and everyone on this board would condemn these recent acts

when stories started coming out claiming that the US was using chemical weapons in Iraq, NOBODY called bullshit on it; nobody claimed that it didn't make sense for us to use them, thus the story isn't true, etc

the cognitive dissonance has been discouraging, to say the least

[sabbat hunter]

37. hizbollah did attack israel

what do you expect israel to do? nothing?

the hizbollah basically treat southern lebanon as their own fiefdom with little central government control. hizbollah did attack israel, and has done so in the past.

what is israel supposed to to when attacked?

[sabbat hunter]

49. hizbollah

attacked israel. they operate pretty much as an independent force in southern lebanon. they rule the area without interference from the lebanese government. israel has every right to take out hizbollah. the lebanese government is powerless to do anything against them. the UN peacekeepers that were there stood idly by while hizbollah invaded israel, killed and took captive israeli soliders (and they ones they captured probably were tortured then killed as that is hizbollah's MO.

[TomInTib]

3. I am not a Jew, but I agree wth you except for one minor point.

kinda.

I have been thinking about Hezbollah on a parallel plane with Mexican drug smugglers and 'mules'.
Those Mexicans cause considerably more damage (albeit in a different way) to the US than does Hezbollah to Israel.

When we apprehend them - even if we have to go into Mexico to get them -, they deserve whatever they get (even tho I have done my darnedest to help them financially for over 40 years).
But we cannot bomb the cties, towns, and villages from whence they come.
Nor should we set up a "Security Zone" south of the border and expect the Global Community to police it.

Neither should Israel do the same to the Lebanese or Hezbollah.

[Taverner]

6. Good points

But my main thing is that all people, Jews and Gentiles, should decry the bombing of civilians, no matter how staunchly they support Israel.

[TomInTib]

11. Agreed

And the US hasn't raised any voice in this regard.

I think it is because of our actions in the City of Angels (Panama) in '89.

[Lerkfish]

20. well, see, here's the problem

whenever one decries the bombing of civilians by Isreal, they're accused of being anti-semite, or simply not supporting Israel's right to exist or defend themselves.
If you're jewish, that's easy, you can say you're jewish and the pro-Israel person has to then deal with your arguments on their face (or not as they choose)
however, if you are not jewish, it becomes very uncomfortable and the discussion gets into a situation where you cannot speak of your horror of bombing civilians without getting sidetracked into who is or isn't anti-semite.
Of course, the real irony is that arabs are also semite, but whatever.

The point is, there should not be any country whose poorly thought out or dangerous policies are beyond discussion. If there is a Sudanese person on this site, are we not then allowed to discuss the massive killings in Sudan, or Somalia, or Haiti?
Why is there a slash and burn edict on one and only one country here?

The reality is that Israel is intentionally bombing lebanon in a collective punishment for the actions of Hezbollah. A lot of innocent people, and even UN workers are getting slaughtered along the way. Collective punishment is a war crime. And, its unfortunately a war crime the current US administration is also guilty of, among other crimes.

let's call a spade a spade, Hezbollah bombing civilians in Israel is terrorism and a crime. But they are NOT a country, and even if they were, Lebanon is not that country. Israel, on the other hand, IS a country, and by intentionally and openly bombing indiscriminately they are not in a position to claim defense any longer.

[aquart]

9. Yeah, it's always the non-Jews who are so fair-minded.

Do you know of any Mexicans who have bombed a city center in the US? Because the day they do, I assure, you, we will not be so sweet about their cities.

But, thanks for your false analogy.

[TomInTib]

16. You do not have to bomb cities to kill people.

I am willing to wager that I personally knew more Americans who were killed by Mexicans and Colombians in the War about/on Drugs than you know Israelis killed by Hezbollah.

A lot more.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TomClash]

45. When did the occupation of Mexico begin?

Talk about false analogies.

[enid602]

5. Israel

I think the US Jews should also realize that the newly-elected and first mainly civilian Israeli Government would NEVER have dared such an invasion without the tacit approval of or the financial and military support of GWB.

[Taverner]

8. Very very true

And GWB has a vested interest in war in the ME.

Besides the oil profits he will reap when they go sky high, he also gets to be more "rapture ready." I'm convinced he is hell bent on trying to hasten the end times bullshit.

[sabbat hunter]

50. all of israels governments

have been made up from civilians. were some prime ministers former generals? yes. but so were a lot of US presidents. but when they ran for office they were civilians.

just about everyone in israel is a former member or current member of the military as they have a draft for men and women. not all chose to make it their first career.

[SammyBlue]

7. Well, since this is flamebait and will be locked soon

When Hezbollah and Hamas seriously work for coexistance, instead of lying to lull people into a false sense of security.

When the Arab World and Arab leaders stand up and say that the tactics of Hezbollah and Hamas are wrong and will work to turn over their leaders to Israel to stand trial.

Because until then, all I see and observe is Hamas and Hezbollah getting away with a clean slate what people accuse Israel of doing. I see no one holding Hamas and Hezbollah's fat to the fire.

[Taverner]

10. You didn't read what I wrote

I am not saying Hezbollah and Hamas = good

I am saying the bombing of Lebanese civilians, who are neither Hamas nor Hezbollah, and in many cases not even Muslim, is flat out wrong.

[aquart]

14. I agree. The Israelis should have bombed Gaza.

Or....exactly what were you proposing? Just duck and cover?

[Taverner]

15. I propose they attack Hezbollah

I propose they aim their missles at Hezbollah training camps like they claim they are doing.

I propose they attack those who are attacking them.

It's clear they are bombing the shit out of Southern Lebanon without any regard to where those missles hit. The shotgun approach is no way to wage a war.

To be honest I don't think they should be using missles period. If they are really concerned about taking out Hezbollah, then use snipers.

[SammyBlue]

23. And to sum up.

I do not trust most news sources since each has a political bent they follow. The European news sources, being European and having a long history of institutionalized anti-Semeitism and Jew hating, will paint the Israelis as barbaric murderers.

The American media, an unpaid public relations liason for the Ultra right wing, are nothing but the Israeli cheering section.

While I support Israel, I doubt any of us are getting the correct story without some political opinion dropped in.

[SammyBlue]

21. I don't believe with all my heart the IDF is targetting civilians

Unlike what alot of people aaround the world believe.

Knowing what I know about the IDF, civilians are unfortunately targets because HEzbollah guerrillas are intermixed and bombs are equal opportunity killers.

However, when Hezbollah and Hamas attack and bomb Israeli citizens, it's just as wrong. . .maybe more so because Hamas and Hezbollah have governmental and military targets to hit but choose school buses, plazas, delis, markets, discos and plazas. Hamas and Hezbollah intentionally targets civilians.

I do not believe the IDF plans to kill civilians.

[xchrom]

27. how is that belief any different than the nationalism paraded

around in such a grotesque fashion here?

we know that nationalism practiced with that kind of blind fervor is almost universally wrong -- your justification is that hamas and hizbullah is bad therefore idf good.

[SammyBlue]

32. Being proud of the Jewish state is how I was raised.

I was raised by a family who believed in, worked for and raised money and support for Israel. My great Grandmother was 45 at the time and knew Golda Meir personally (unfortunately, she died in 2003, 1 month after her 100th birthday).

My family bled for Israel. My family fought to make Israel a state through work with Ms. Meir and her cause in 1948.

We believe in what Theodor Herzl wrote in the 1880s about Zionism. If you think a Jewish family supporting the Jewish state of Israel is "blind nationalism," something is wrong with your worldview, not mine.

Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist organizations that target civilians. The IDF is an army. . .and Israel has not intentionally targetted civilians. Why are you so fast to say that what Hamas and Hezbollah are good, therefore IDF bad?

I know at least 25 retired and active officers in the IDF (11 on a very personal basis, 5 on a first name basis as friends of the family. . .1 is a retired general). I ask them this all the time.

Don't give me blind nationalism argument. It's the same "If you love them so much, go there" attitude that I reject. I support Israel 100% because it is part of who I am. I've been there four times. I have friends there now. I know what Israel stands for. . .I know what Hamas and Hezbollah stands for. . .you know? I'll support Israel. Who do you support?

[xchrom]

33. did i say go there?

get bent --

nor was implying in any fast way hamas -- hizbullah good -- simply pointing out the nationalism implied in your remarks.

and you merely detailed more nationalism as a justification.

do you support blind american nationalism?

is america's bombing iraq into small pieces justified because radical muslims attacked on 9-11?

i mean there were radical muslims in iraq -- there are probably radical muslims just about everywhere in the muslim world.

in some spots a few -- in others more.

so do we go bang on their ass because''If you think a Jewish family supporting the Jewish state of Israel is "blind nationalism," something is wrong with your worldview, not mine.{substituting american for jewish}'' that attitude justifies every act of war we drag out of the closet?

[SammyBlue]

34. Point by point rebuttal

did i say go there? get bent --
Nice insult. . .learn how to argue. He who insults first loses.

nor was implying in any fast way hamas -- hizbullah good -- simply pointing out the nationalism implied in your remarks.
Nationalism I have. jingoism I don't have. Yes, I am proud of Israel (being Jewish) and I am proud to be an American. Aren't you?

and you merely detailed more nationalism as a justification.
You mean jingoism. . .and no, I am not a jingoistic.

do you support blind american nationalism?
When we're right, we're right. When we're wrong, we're wrong. And I point that out.

is america's bombing iraq into small pieces justified because radical muslims attacked on 9-11?
Did Iraq, a secular Arab nation, attack us on 9/11? No. So, Iraq shouldn't have been attacked. . .nice attempt at putting me in a corner though.

i mean there were radical muslims in iraq -- there are probably radical muslims just about everywhere in the muslim world.
And if they attack us, like Al-Qaeda did, I'd say strike back. Hamas and Hezbollah are radical islamic terrorists that attack Israel all the time. Israel has the right to defend themselves.

in some spots a few -- in others more.
I fail to understand your point here, so I will move on.

so do we go bang on their ass because''If you think a Jewish family supporting the Jewish state of Israel is "blind nationalism," something is wrong with your worldview, not mine.{substituting american for jewish}'' that attitude justifies every act of war we drag out of the closet?
Nice use of obtuse language. I fail to understand your point again. If I am understanding correctly, yes. If Hamas and Hezbollah target Americans, I believe it is the government's job under Locke's social contract (the political theory our government is based on) to respond to those attacks with attacks of our own. Why? Because American lives are just as precious as everyone else's. If Americans are target, we need to protect our own. That's the nature of having a government. We give up certain natural rights for the protection the government provides. That's the basic unit of advanced civilization. I didn't say civil rights, mind you. . .I said natural rights.

[xchrom]

35. america is based on a lot of political theory -- not just lockes.

saying you are not jingoistic -- doesn't make it so.

either the mass bombing of innocent civilians is wrong or it's right.

your initial justification was a BELIEF that the idf wouldn't do such a thing because it was israelie.

jesus -- america damn near wiped out first nation people because they were so sure of themselves -- tortured people in abu ghraib because they were so sure of themselves. blind faith in america has led to many, many horrors.

it's that kind of blind nationalism that takes anyone over the line -- even israel.

and mind you -- in neither post did i accuse israel of anything --

[catmother]

40. i'm not jewish. but just how much can israel take before they

retaliate. i don't think they're trying to kill civilians, there trying to bomb Hezbollah strongholds. it seems Hizbollah uses the lebanese people as shields. they hide among them.

[jarnocan]

24. also of course they that have injured or killed civilians,bull dozed

homes, jailed people, destoyed businesses, farms and olive groves, diverted water-crucial to survival, unjustifiably, will also have to stand trial. Right? IMHO We have to acknowledge wrong doing on both sides to have any chance at meaningful peace negotiations.

[SammyBlue]

26. That won't bring peace.

The Palestinians needs to recognize Israel's right to exist and work for coexistance. Hamas, Hezbollah and the rest don't want coexistance. . .they want it all! Israel isn't going anywhere and the faster the Palestinians pressure these terrorist groups to go away and show Israel that they want coexistance, then peace will happen.

Sadly, the Palestinians will not pressure Hamas and Hezbollah to go away and still haven't figured out the coexistance attitude.

Where I get very combative is when I get the "Israel this, Israel that," as if Israel wants to kill and enjoys doing it. I get tired of the blame Israel for everything shit.

[jarnocan]

47. and when folks post truths about real concerns

concerning injustice toward Palestinians-they often just get dismissed as anti- Irael or anti-semetic .
NOT much different really than the far right here saying disagreeing with the Bu**sh**/Cheney regime is anti-American! GET it?
My duaghter slept on the beach near Haifa shortly before a bombing there that killed many young people. I do care about both sides. Facing painful relaities and having SOME accountability for both sides is the only way to peace IMHO.

[aquart]

12. "Right to exist" is NOT being argued?

So there are no bombs bursting in Haifa? Exactly how do you define that?

[Taverner]

13. Again, if Israel wants to launch a counter-offensive, why don't they

attack Hezbollah?

They are not - they are attacking innocent civilians. Please explain to me how Lebanese civilians = Hezbollah

[jarnocan]

17. thank you - many of US are concerned with anti-semetism

to the point of not acknowledging REALLY horrendous abuse and even atrocities, When discussing issues we are concerned with being accused of it,and then having an entire serious discussion dismissed, or taken in by some who do use valid information-and sad photos to sucker people in to hate/propaganda sites. It does happen.
However we have to acknowledge that there are hateful extremist in Israel, just as there are here, and in many other countries. According to Wikipedia (etc.)the PNAC has close ties to Likud and other right-wing Israeli parties. Here is an important article concerning the PNAC plans for the middle east-in case anyone has missed it.
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/07/17/neocons-middle-east-war

Ralph Nadar recently wrote a letter to BUSH:

Freedom and justice ......
You have turned your back on the courageous and prominent Israeli peace movement which normally reflects the positions of half of the Israeli population. You've never met with any of its leaders - even those in the Knesset or former officials in the military, intelligence and Justice Ministries. Hundreds of reserve combat officers and soldiers of the IDF have refused, in their words, "to fight beyond the 1967 borders to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire population." They pledged only to fight for Israel's legitimate defense

We do not hear much about them either.

[SammyBlue]

28. Off topic. . .Ralph Nader is a very sore topic here

He ran, sucked votes from Al Gore, gave Bush the ability to steal the election, then said Gore and bush were the same.

Fuck Ralph Nader and anything he says and I hope he rots in hell for what he helped bring to this country!

[jarnocan]

48. you missed the point- FAIR minded ISRAELIs/peace and justice??!

I am not a Nadar supporter- a Gore one DUH!
I was simply looking for a quote that stated something I do beleive to be the case. To demonstrate that YES there are Isaraleis that want a fair and just peace (as much as possible) PEACE, and that yes their message is seldom herad- similar to the problems we have here as well.

[Phx_Dem]

18. Your argument is flawed

right at the point where you say "deliberate"

[Taverner]

19. If it is not deliberate, then they are incompetent

And should hand the missle controls to someone who can aim

[SammyBlue]

22. Flawed argument times two

Missiles and bombs are equal opportunity killers. They do not discriminate.

[IndianaGreen]

25. Here is what Tom Hayden has to say about that

Published on Friday, July 21, 2006 by TruthDig

Things Come ’Round in Mideast

by Tom Hayden

But that summer I made the mistake of my political career. The Israel Defense Forces invaded Lebanon, and Benny Navon wanted Jane and me to be supportive. It happened that I had visited the contested border in the past, witnessed the shelling of civilian Israeli homes, and interviewed Israeli and Lebanese zealots—crazies, I thought, who were preaching preventive war. I opposed cross-border rocket attacks and naively favored a demilitarized zone.

Ever curious, and aware of my district’s politics, I decided we should go to the Middle East—but only as long as the Israeli “incursion,” as it was delicately called, was limited to the 10-kilometer space near the Lebanese border, as a cushion against rocket fire. Benny Navon assured me that the “incursion” was limited, and would be followed by negotiations and a solution. I also made clear our opposition to the use of any fragmentation bombs in the area, and my ultimate political identification with what Israeli Peace Now would say.

There followed a descent into moral ambiguity and realpolitick that still haunts me today. When we arrived at the Israeli-Lebanon border, the game plan promised by Benny Navon had changed utterly. Instead of a localized border conflict, Israel was invading and occupying all of Lebanon—with us in tow. Its purpose was to destroy militarily the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) haven in Lebanon. This had been Gen. Ariel Sharon’s secret plan all along, and I never will know with certainty whether Benny Navon had been deceived along with everyone else.

For the next few weeks, I found myself defending Israel’s “right” to self-defense on its border, only to realize privately how foolish I was becoming. In the meantime, Israel’s invasion was continuing, with ardent Jewish support in America.

Finally, a close friend and political advisor of mine, Ralph Brave, took me for a walk, looked into my eyes and said: “Tom, you can’t do this. You have to stop.” He was right, and I did. In the California Legislature, I went to work on Holocaust survivor issues while withdrawing from the bind of Israeli-Palestinian politics. When the first Palestinian intifada began, I sensed from experience that the balance of forces had changed, and that the Israeli occupation was finished. Frictions developed between me and some of my Israeli and Jewish friends when I suggested that Israel must make a peace deal immediately or accept a worse deal later.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0721-24.htm

[cool user name]

30. This Jew says:

"Not In My Name!"

[ls317]

31. conflict

The real question should be how could the country of Lebanon allow a group to run amuck within its borders.Hezbollah is armed with weapons from Iran. Syria is the logistical base of operations for them.They hide massive amount of weapons within large volume of populated area civilans.And they fire rockets and missiles also from these same areas.
Of course the will be large amounts of civilian death because of the war.Not attempting to justify the loss of life because of a conflict.In essence those people that are getting killed are basically the same as human shields of sorts.
IMAO the problem lies within the puppet goverment that is in place in the country of lebanon.

[Name removed]

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[jonnyblitz]

39. interesting. nt

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[bwoody1]

38. Who decides who is guilty of a war crime?

Generally speaking, it is the loser of a war that is guilty of war crimes...this is simply because the winner gets to act as the judge and jury. History tells us that In war, particularly when people feel their backs are against the wall, they will do anything in their power to prevail.

Both sides of this age old conflict intentionally kill civilians (collateral damage if you must)...so why characterize one side of being guilty of war crimes and not the other. I find your assessment that Hezbollah is not deliberately killing civilians to be particularly misguided (much like the rockets they keep shooting indiscriminately into Israeli cities).

As long as there is war, innocent civilians will be killed...that will never change.

[Lithos]

51. Locking per I/P guidelines

Not based on a recent news or op-ed article.