Can an "Arab" be a citizen of Israel?

[Postman]

Or is it that you have to be a Jew to be considered a citizen of Israel?

[breakaleg]

1. they have a tiered system. even the Jews are ranked according

to some system, with each level having more rights.

Arabs don't enjoy the same rights as Jews, that's for sure.

[rockymountaindem]

5. What the hell are you talking about?

"Arab citizens of Israel are Arabs who are citizens of the State of Israel. Israeli Arabs are full citizens of the State of Israel, with equal protection under the law, and full rights of due process, though like minority populations in many countries, Israeli Arabs face significant challenges within the broader society - which is made more complex by the fact that they are Palestinians and have many ties, including family ties, to Palestinians in the West bank and Gaza. Arab residents of East Jerusalem, annexed by Israel in 1980 <1>, are eligible for citizenship, though most choose not to exercise that right.

Israeli Arabs comprise around 15% of the country's total number of citizens (19.5% when East Jerusalem residents are included).<1> They call themselves or have been called "Israeli Arabs", "Arab citizens of Israel",<2><3><4> "Arab Israelis"<5> and "Palestinian Arabs in Israel".<6><7><8>

Most Israeli Arabs, including 170,000 Bedouin, are descendants of the 150,000 Arabs who remained within Israel's borders during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War and of the Wadi Ara Palestinians who came under Israeli jurisdiction as part of a territory exchange under the 1949 Armistice Agreement with Jordan. As many as 200,000 others have emigrated into Israel from the Gaza Strip and West Bank, receiving citizenship under family-unification provisions. Israeli Arabs include 120,000 Druze and 180,000 Christian Arabs."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Arabs

[breakaleg]

16. here...

I read this elsewhere yesterday, but this site give some of the same information
---------------------------
There is no Constitutional Equality

Israel hasn't got a written constitution, and, although it has passed a set of 'Basic Laws', these do not include the right to equality. In practice the emphasis on the Jewish nature of the state compromises the equal rights protection for the Palestinian Arab minority.

* Political Participation is unequal

The 1992 'Basic Law: The Knesset' stops participation in the elections if a platform implies the "denial of the existence of the state of Israel as the state of the Jewish people". So a party platform calling for full and complete equality between Jews and Arabs in a state for all its citizens can be – and has been - disqualified. In no other democratic state in the world could a party calling for equality for all be disenfranchised.

* Citizenship Rights are unequal

The Law of Return grants every Jew the right to immigrate to Israel. And any Jew who does so (and their spouses, children and grandchildren) is automatically given citizenship. Palestinian Arabs can only get citizenship by birth, residence or naturalisation (after meeting many stringent conditions).

* Jewish Organisations have a special constitutional status

The Jewish National Fund, Jewish Agency, and World Zionist Organisation are Jewish organisations whose aim is explicitly to benefit Jews only. Yet they have responsibility for certain governmental functions, particularly land development and housing. They get tax benefits and are involved in a lot of governmental decision-making.

Palestinian Arab citizens are entirely excluded as either participants or beneficiaries.

* Military Service confers wide social and economic privileges

Doing military service is a condition for obtaining many benefits in Israel. Technically compulsory for all citizens, the vast majority (90%) of Palestinian Arabs are not required to serve, whereas the majority of Jews do.

* So Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel don't receive a wide range of benefits, including larger mortgages, partial exemptions from course fees, and preferences for public employment and housing.

* Jewish Yeshiva students, who don't do military service, are still given the benefits, Palestinian Arab citizens aren't.

Until 1997 even the level of state child benefits was based on military service, rather than on need…

In 2003 the Israel Land Administration was offering 90% subsidy to discharged soldiers to lease land in the Galilee or the Negev, something that in the words of ACRI 'represents in real terms the severe discrimination of the Arab sector that does not serve in the army or the national service

----------------



http://www.jfjfp.org/factsheets/arabsinisrael.htm

[rockymountaindem]

21. Ok, I can understand what you're saying

However I don't think Israel is in a completely abnormal situation. As far as party platforms go, calling for equality for citizens does not rule out Israel being a "Jewish State", or vice versa. I believe this refers to platforms which would imply that Jews have no right to live in Israel (such as from the Arab side) or that Israel has no right to exist at all (an opinion which can be found among some Orthodox Jews, who believe a Jewish state can only exist in the time of the Messiah). Israeli Druze citizens, for example, are not Jewish but are fully integrated within the fabric of Israeli society. Citizenship rights under the Law of Return are not unique, for example it is much much easier to obtain Italian and Irish citizenship if you have an Italian or Irish grandparent. The principle of citizenship based on "jus sanguinis", or having that country's heritage somewhere in your family tree, is a globally recognized idea. And as far as military service goes, Arabs are not conscripted, but Arab citizens of Israel are free to enlist in the IDF if they so choose, as are Christians or anyone else. Druze are conscripted as are Jews.

[Zhade]

51. And yet some ignorantly bang on about Israel being "democratic".

How, exactly, is a country without even an approved constitution democratic?

[Behind the Aegis]

54. The UK doesn't have an official written one.

Are they not democratic?

[newyorican]

69. But the OP is about Isra...

...Oohhh, look over there! Shinies!

[eyl]

70. I really hope that was sarcasm n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

103. The person I was responding to made a comment that was incorrect.

I simply showed that there is at least one more democracy without a written Constitution. And "shinies?" What are you implying?

[sabbat hunter]

79. does that mean

you dont consider england democratic?

england has no formal constitution. israel took england common law and uses it as their own in an unwritten constitution (the same system england has)

[barb162]

90. Well, I guess that means Great Britain is also undemocratic

because if it isn't written down and approved , it is somehow a priori undemocratic? I guess you then have to avoid reading about the fact that they vote and have elections in that country

[eyl]

75. Maybe someone can explain

The rest of the issues are discussed elsewhere on this thread, but maybe someone can explain why veterans' benefits keep coming up as an example of discrimination against Arabs?

While only Jews and Druze are required to serve, others can do so voluntarily (it's ironic that the population being "discriminated against is the one not subject to the draft, don't you think?). The benefits are also considerably smaller than those making this claim seem to think. Lastly, keep in mind that while an IDF veteran gains certain benefits (mainly discharge bonuses and an income tax exemption for a year), those who haven't enlisted have the benefit of two or three years head start.

[breakaleg]

20. and here...

---
Land confiscation
Israeli law also restricts where non-Jews may live. "Muslims and Christians are barred from buying in the Jewish quarter of the old city on the grounds of "historic patterns of life of each community having its own quarter'," says Seidemann, in a phrase eerily reminiscent of apartheid's philosophy. "But that didn't prevent the Israeli government from aggressively pursuing activities to place Jews within the Muslim quarter. The attitude is: what's mine is exclusively mine, but what's yours is mixed if we happen to target it."

Israeli law permits wholesale confiscation of property inside Israel or Jerusalem that is owned by Palestinians who live in areas defined as "enemy territory", including the West Bank, which was occupied by Jordan until it lost the war against Israel in 1967. "Any Palestinian who was at any point in 'enemy territory' after 1967, forfeits his property," says Seidemann. "But enemy territory includes the West Bank. It's a remarkable situation. Any property that was ever 'abandoned' by any Palestinian becomes state land and is then 'turned over to the Jewish people'. Any property that once belonged to a Jew is 'recovered to the Jewish people' and turned over to the settlers."

---
The law is not applied in reverse: Jews who go to live in West Bank settlements do not lose property they may own in Tel Aviv. Last year, Sharon's government quietly confiscated thousands of acres of Palestinian-owned lands within greater Jerusalem without compensation, after a secret cabinet decision to use a 55-year-old law on abandoned property against Arabs separated from their olive groves and farms by the West Bank barrier. Previous governments decided not to apply this law to East Jerusalem and the Sharon administration was embarrassed enough to expropriate the lands in secret before dropping the policy after an international outcry when it came to light. The Palestinians called the confiscations "legalised theft".


----------
Israel's Population Registry Act serves a similar purpose by distinguishing between nationality and citizenship. Arabs and Jews alike can be citizens, but each is assigned a separate "nationality" marked on identity cards (either spelled out or, more recently, in a numeric code), in effect determining where they are permitted to live, access to some government welfare programmes, and how they are likely to be treated by civil servants and policemen.
--
Unequal education
In the 2002 budget, Israel's housing ministry spent about £14 per person in Arab communities compared with up to £1,500 per person in Jewish ones. The same year, the health ministry allocated just 1.6m shekels (£200,000) to Arab communities of its 277m-shekel (£35m) budget to develop healthcare facilities.
--

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1703245,00.html

[cali]

7. Not for sure.

First of all there is no codified system of discrimination against Israeli Arabs. Yes, there's discrimination, just as there's discrimination in the U.S., and god knows, the treatment of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories is awful, but within Israel itself, Arab Israelis are granted full citzenship. In fact, 20% of Israelis are Arabs.

[Violet_Crumble]

48. When it comes to citizenship, there is some codified discrimination...

The one that comes to mind is the law barring citizenship to spouses of Israelis ONLY if they're Palestinian. That's definately discriminatory, though it's something one or two regulars in the I/P forum who are the first to shriek about Jews not being allowed citizenship in Saudi Arabia support. Also, Palestinians who live in East Jerusalem were only given residency status when Israeli annexed East Jerusalem and I've read of enough cases of applications for citizenship being refused to believe that there's also discimination in that regard...

When it comes to indirect discrimination, there's a lot more. For instance, there is a real inequity in govt funding to Arab communities as opposed to Jewish ones. The International Crisis Group put out a report a few years ago on the Arab citizens of Israel and it goes into a lot of detail about the discrimination they suffer...

http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=2528&l=1&m=1

[pelsar]

66. i thought the thread was about citizens of israel?

some see a difference between saudi arabias laws against jews vs israels against Palestinians. The palestenains are in the middle of a war with israel, kind of dumb letting them roam around israel freely....something to do with suicide bombs blowing up busses and resturants.....govts are supposed to asses potential threats to its citizens and stop them before they happen....

so there is massive discrimination against non citizens of israels, those involved in a low level war.....i suspect during wars it pretty normal not to let the "other side" roam freely in your own country....

[barb162]

89. That's what the OP states, doesn't it?

It seems some around here desperately want to go off topic

[barb162]

41. this is NOT true ; see my links below

[eyl]

74. Care to expand

on this "several levels of Jews"?

[Totallybushed]

84. What rights do

Jews have in Arab countries?

[Andromeda]

100. Shhhhh...

You're not supposed to ask that.

[Totallybushed]

101. Why not? n/t

[semillama]

2. There are numerous Israeli Arabs

But you tend not to hear much about them. I gather that it's hard for them to participate fully in the political process, though, not being Jewish. There are also Israeli Christians as well.

[Crabby Appleton]

3. Yes

Arabs can and are.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Arab

[whistle]

4. Acquisition of Israeli Nationality

<snip>

WORLD CONFERENCE AGAINST RACISM - DURBAN


Acquisition of Israeli Nationality

Israel's Nationality Law relates to anyone wishing to settle in Israel, as well as those already residing or born there, regardless of race, religion, creed, sex or political beliefs. Citizenship may be acquired by:

Birth

The Law of Return

Residence

Naturalization




Acquisition of Nationality by Birth is granted to:

Persons who were born in Israel to a mother or father who are Israeli citizens.

Persons born outside Israel, if their father or mother holds Israeli citizenship, acquired either by birth in Israel, according to the Law of Return, by residence, or by naturalization.

Persons born after the death of one of their parents, if the late parent was an Israeli citizen by virtue of the conditions enumerated above at the time of death.

Persons born in Israel, who have never had any nationality and subject to limitations specified in law, if they:

apply for it in the period between their 18th and 25th birthday and
have been residents of Israel for five consecutive years, immediately preceding the day of the filing of their application.


Acquisition of Nationality according to the Law of Return

On the establishment of the State, its founders proclaimed "...the renewal of the Jewish State in the Land of Israel, which would open wide the gates of the homeland to every Jew...." In pursuance of this tenet, the State of Israel has absorbed survivors of the Holocaust, refugees from the countries in which they had resided, as well as many thousands of Jews who came to settle in Israel of their own volition.

The Law of Return (1950) grants every Jew, wherever he or she may be, the right to come to Israel as an oleh (a Jew immigrating to Israel) and become an Israeli citizen.

For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has converted to Judaism and is not a member of another religion.

Israeli citizenship becomes effective on the day of arrival in the country or of receipt of an oleh's certificate, whichever is later. A person may declare, within three months, that he/she does not wish to become a citizen.

Since 1970 the right to immigrate under this Law has been extended to include the child and the grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew. The purpose of this amendment is to ensure the unity of families where intermarriage had occurred; it does not apply to persons who had been a Jews and had voluntarily changed their religion.

An oleh's certificate may be denied to persons who:

engage in activity directed against the Jewish people;
may endanger public health or the security of the state;<
have a criminal past, likely to endanger public welfare.



Acquisition of by Residence

Special provision is made in the Nationality Law for former citizens of British Mandatory Palestine. Those who remained in Israel from the establishment of the State in 1948 until the enactment of the Nationality Law of 1952 became Israeli citizens by residence or by return.

According to an amendment (1980), further possibilities to acquire citizenship by residence were included in the law.



Acquisition of Nationality by Naturalization

Adults may acquire Israeli citizenship by naturalization at the discretion of the Minister of the Interior and subject to a number of requirements, such as:

they must have resided in Israel for three years out of five years preceding the day of submission of the application;

they are entitled to reside in Israel permanently and have settled or intended to settle in Israel;

they have renounced their prior nationality, or have proved that they will cease to be foreign nationals upon becoming Israeli citizens.

The Minister of the Interior may exempt an applicant from some of these requirements.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2001/8/Acquisition%20of%20Israeli%20Nationality

[breakaleg]

6. the Arabs are not allowed to own land, or "lease" land in Israel the

way the Jews are.

If they do own it already, the aren't granted building permits to build on that land.

[Solo_in_MD]

8. Any citation that shows that?

[theHandpuppet]

15. The citations I found are contradictory and confusing

There are lots of sites where this issue is discussed but wading through legalese gives me a migraine. Anyway, perhaps someone else won't mind distilling some of this stuff.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_israel_land.php
http://www.arabhra.org/factsheets/factsheet2.htm
http://www.meforum.org/article/370
http://www.samsonblinded.org/said_end_peace_process/92land_ownership_Palestinians_Israel.htm

[unblock]

10. this is false

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_israel_land.php

[cali]

12. There has

been discrimination re building permits, but Israeli Arabs most certainly can and do own land.

Really, do some basic- and boy do I mean basic, research, before spouting off and providing zip in the way of citations for your assertations. You can start with wike.

[breakaleg]

28. searching for the original source and can't find it but

I believe it was East Jerusalem where they were denying the permits to Arabs, not all of Israel. My mistake. again, I can't find the original link.

[Truthiness Inspector]

13. Unbelievable

And thanks to the others who did your homework for you.

Why would you make such statements, unless to spread misinformation? It. Doesn't. Help. Anyone.

[oberliner]

9. Can a Jew be a citizen of Lebanon? nt

[Igel]

33. There was a Jewish community in Beirut,

it even received some protection during the '60s and '70s. I don't know if they're allowed to own land; that's a different matter from 'citizenship'.

"Religious extremists" expressed a sufficient level of "tolerance" that most emigrated in the '80s. Gee ...

There are still some there. I can't put my finger on a link with what looks like a decent number. A census would be political death--the only thing feared more than Hezb is a census, for the same reasons.

[Behind the Aegis]

37. Populations

The Jewish Population of the World

Doesn't say if they are citizens or what rights they have. As of 2005, Lebanon has about 100 Jews living in the country...Saudi Arabia has O as does Libya (the last one died a few months back).

[barb162]

42. How about Saudi Arabia? For about a minute? Tops?

[jobycom]

11. Israel is 77% Jewish, 18.5% Jewish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelis

All are full citizens with full legal rights. All vote equally. Obviously, the Arabs are greatly outnumbered, so their representation is rather low, but, I believe I have this right, the Israeli government is similar to the British, government, so there is proportional representation, which means that Arabs have a presence in the government. Not enough to overturn the will of the Jews on anything they are united behind, obviously, but certainly enough to make sure internal decisions consider their views. IIRC, the Muslims in Israel are not united in one party, which disperses their influence even more. That's all book knowledge, though, not any actual experience on my part.

[whistle]

76. I believe your subject line has a typo....

<snip>
According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, as of May 2006, of Israel's 7 million people:

77.0% were Jews,
18.5% Arabs, and
4.3% "others".<1>

Among Jews, 68% were Sabras (Israeli-born), mostly second- or third-generation Israelis, and the rest are olim — 22% from Europe and the Americas, and 10% from Asia and Africa, including the Arab countries.

[merci_me]

14. There are Arab Jews

I have several friends who are very active in the Democratic Party here, who are originally from Iran, Iraq, Syria and Libya. My closest friends' families have all immigrated into the US, Canada and Europe. A few have family who are settled in Israel. Some friends, not as close, I don't know about their families.

There are a lot of links on google for "Arab Jews", though all my friends, if asked about their accents refer to themselves as Iranian-Jew, Syrian-Jew, whatever, as opposed to using the word Arab. One told me it just saves a lot of explanation of the whole history. I will say, the people I know have become US citizens and are very liberal and active Democrats.

[Recursion]

31. Iranians aren't Arabs, incidentally

Arabs live in the Arabian peninsula, the Levant, Mesopotamia, Misri (Egypt), and parts of the Maghreb.

[cali]

17. What?

No response? You started this thread, and now you seem to have nothing to say.

[barb162]

18. Israeli Arabs have equal voting rights in Israel and are citizens

simple as that
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf18.html#a
Arabs in Israel have equal voting rights; in fact, it is one of the few places in the Middle East where Arab women may vote. Arabs currently hold 8 seats in the 120-seat Knesset. Israeli Arabs have also held various government posts, including one who served as Israel's ambassador to Finland and the current deputy mayor of Tel Aviv. Oscar Abu Razaq was appointed Director General of the Ministry of Interior, the first Arab citizen to become chief executive of a key government ministry. Ariel Sharon's original cabinet included the first Arab minister, Salah Tarif, a Druze who served as a minister without portfolio. An Arab is also a Supreme Court justice.

[catmother]

26. great info barb.

[barb162]

40. hey there, Catmother!

Nice seeing you

[Violet_Crumble]

49. Oh for gawdssake! That's an incredibly biased source!

Try getting some great info from a less biased source than that, that's if yr interested in reading anything that has a lack of bias, which I doubt...

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

55. Yep, figured as much from what I've read from them n/t

[jonnyblitz]

59. The Jewish Virtual Library looks like something from an

Israeli PR firm. THe pro-Israel folks always use it for a reference, I have noticed.
Here is what wikipedia says.

"The Jewish Virtual Library is a project of the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE) a nonprofit 501(c)(3), nonpartisan organization established "to strengthen the U.S.-Israel relationship by emphasizing the fundamentals of the alliance."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Virtual_Library

[Violet_Crumble]

61. It is, and I know for a fact they're not interested in facts...

A long while back I got hold of a Royal Commission that the British had held over violence in Palestine in the pre-Israel days. I noticed that the Jewish Virtual Library had blatantly misquoted from it and I got in touch with them, gave them the correct information and suggested they change their information so as to be more factual. Of course they didn't, which speaks volumes of what their agenda is, which seems to have very little with being factual...

[barb162]

91. SO one little factoid means the WHOLE thing is wrong? Bwaha

And if the Oxford English Dictionary has a spelling error the whole dictionary is is wrong? Care to deal with the OP????

[Zhade]

63. Well, look who's on the "honorary board of directors":

Douglas Feith and Daniel Pipes - two known rightwingers, one of them a criminal from Iran-Contra!

Yeah, it's an unbiased source. :rofl:

[jonnyblitz]

64. I noticed a bio on Wolfowitz there, too.

I have read enough I/P related info to know when I am reading a "sanitized" versions.

Daniel Pipes is a major anti-arab BIGOT. :scared:

[barb162]

88. "always use it for a reference" Really? Another outright error

"Always" - wow I bet the pro-Israelis around here didn't know that

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[barb162]

87. Do you wish to dispute that Israeli Arabs have voting rights?

Or go off topic?

[cool user name]

19. Israel's two-tiered citizenship:

Israel's Two-Tiered Citizenship Law Bars Non-Jews From 93 Percent of Its Lands
By Roselle Tekiner
On a bus tour through Galilee several years ago, the guide commented that the government was having difficulty preventing Arabs from encroaching on the land through which we were passing. I asked why Arabs were being kept off this land and he replied that it was national land. I told him I didn't understand what "national land" meant if it has to be secured against Arabs. "Aren't Arabs citizens of Israel?"

"Of course they are," he replied, "but it's much more complicated here than in the United States and difficult to explain. " That ended our brief exchange, for he turned abruptly away. He apparently had learned to recognize and avoid loaded questions that he either could not or did not want to answer.


No Israeli nationality applies to all citizens, as does a US nationality in the United States.
Zionist uses of the term "nation," "national, " and "nationality" are indeed difficult to understand and to explain because they derive from concepts that are unfamiliar to Americans. Moreover, their true meanings are deliberately obscured by usually incorrect translations from Hebrew into English.

The prime example of deception, from which the others flow, is the accepted translation of Israel's Law of Citizenship as "Nationality " Law. In the original Hebrew text, the word is ezrahut, the correct translation is "citizenship."

It would not occur to the average English peaking observer to object to translating ezrahut as "nationality" because "citizenship" and "nationality" are interchangeable terms in the United States, as well as in most democratic societies. In Israel, however, they are two separate and very different statuses. Citizenship (ezrahut) may be held by Arabs as well as Jews while nationality (le'um), which bestows significantly greater rights than citizenship, may be claimed by Jews alone.

To refer to "Arab nationals," as this law does, is a deceptive translation of ezrahut, because Arabs or others who are not Jews cannot be "nationals" of Israel. Only Jews can be "nationals." Their nationality rights are granted by the Law of Return. No Israeli nationality applies to all citizens, as does a US nationality in the United States or French nationality in France, for example. In Israel, there is only a Jewish nationality. That non-Jews cannot qualify for nationality rights in the state of Israel was affirmed by the Supreme Court in 1972 in a statement that there is no Israeli nation separate from the Jewish people.

The original mis-translation of ezrahut as "nationality" has been consistently repeated, successfully concealing the existence of the two legal statuses, with non-Jews eligible for only one. Like a virus introduced into a computer system, the error is continually replicated and now permeates most writings on the topic of nationality and national rights in Israel. Having successfully conveyed the erroneous perception that Arabs and Jews alike are nationals of Israel, it seems logical to assume that national lands, like national lands in other countries, are a national asset belonging to all the people. Even if a tour guide were equipped with details of this clever ruse, however, he would not last long in his job if he explained the rationale behind prohibitions of Arab encroachment on " national" lands.


"Redeeming the Land" for the "Jewish People"
The process by which the land becomes "national" land is through purchase or confiscation by the Jewish National Fund. The procedure is referred to as "redeeming the land," which then becomes the inalienable property of the Jews of the world, who are Israel's national constituency and referred to in law as "the Jewish people."

"Redeeming the land" derives from the Bible. The concept was appropriated by political Zionism and transformed into strictly nationalist terms. The state, instead of God, would return the people from exile to restore the relationship between "the Jewish people " and the land. The problem was: how can a country, eager for world recognition as non-discriminatory and democratic, structure its institutions to deprive permanently its citizens who are not Jews of use of much of its land?

(snip)

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0190/9001020.htm

[annabanana]

22. thank you

I did not know this. Thanks for posting it.

[Truthiness Inspector]

27. You ignored all of the above posts

and picked out this post to say "thank you" for the info?

Amazing.

[Ms. Clio]

32. maybe because this is actually a valid and credible source?

just guessing.

[cali]

43. It's

a partisan source. Doesn't mean it's not credible, but it approaches matters with a strong bias. Didn't we have an exchange about this earlier? You dissed any source that has a pro-Israeli bias, and I suggested that both sources with a pro-Israel bias or a pro-Palestinian bias, should be approached with a degree of caution.

[Ms. Clio]

44. It is not a "partisan" site -- there is no comparison between it and MEMRI

About the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs

The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs is a 100-page magazine published 9 times per year in Washington, DC, that focuses on news and analysis from and about the Middle East and U.S. policy in that region.

The Washington Report is published by the American Educational Trust (AET), a non-profit foundation incorporated in Washington, DC by retired U.S. foreign service officers to provide the American public with balanced and accurate information concerning U.S. relations with Middle Eastern states.

AET's Foreign Policy Committee has included former U.S. ambassadors, government officials, and members of Congress, including the late Democratic Senator J. William Fulbright, and Republican Senator Charles Percy, both former chairmen of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Members of AET's Board of Directors and advisory committees receive no fees for their services.

The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs does not take partisan domestic political positions. As a solution to the Palestinian-Israeli dispute, it endorses U.N. Security Council Resolution 242´s land-for-peace formula, supported by seven successive U.S. presidents. In general, the Washington Report supports Middle East solutions which it judges to be consistent with the charter of the United Nations and traditional American support for human rights, self-determination, and fair play.

http://www.washington-report.org/aboutwrmea/index.htm

[cali]

46. It is indeed a partisan source

and self analysis, such as what you just presented, is hardly proof of anything.

[Ms. Clio]

47. And your constant assertion that it is a "partisan source" without

proof of any kind is what, exactly?

What makes it "partisan?" Be precise.

[Violet_Crumble]

58. So is Jewish Virtual Library...

..which was posted here by barb162. Why don't you go and lecture her just for once?

[Ms. Clio]

67. guess no form of "proof" of this "partisanship" will be forthcoming

from you. Shocking.

[Zhade]

57. Well, if you quoted the PNAC-linked MEMRI, no wonder.

FYI, in case you didn't know: MEMRI was founded by the wife of PNACer David Wurmser, and is heavily aligned with PNAC's goals.

[Ms. Clio]

68. the co-founder and President is a former member of Israeli intelligence

as are several other members of this "nonpartisan" organization.

[eyl]

72. Care to point out some cases

where they actually gave false translations? Or are you relying on guilt by association?

[cali]

85. I've never quoted it or used it n/t

[barb162]

23. incorrect

"MYTH

"Israel discriminates against Israeli Arabs by barring them from buying land."

FACT

In the early part of the century, the Jewish National Fund was established by the World Zionist Congress to purchase land in Palestine for Jewish settlement. This land, and that acquired after Israel's War of Independence, was taken over by the government. Of the total area of Israel, 92 percent belongs to the State and is managed by the Land Management Authority. It is not for sale to anyone, Jew or Arab. The remaining 8 percent of the territory is privately owned. The Arab Waqf (the Muslim charitable endowment), for example, owns land that is for the express use and benefit of Muslim Arabs. Government land can be leased by anyone, regardless of race, religion or sex. All Arab citizens of Israel are eligible to lease government land"
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf18.html#b

[cool user name]

25. How does that refute the two-tiered citizenship structure?

n/t

[barb162]

34. what two tiered system...it doesn't exist

[Igel]

39. The rights of citizenship are the same.

But there's an added bonus depending on your nationality.

If you're Jewish, you can lease land from the Jewish source.

If you're Muslim, you can lease land from the waqf. This is not a trivial matter. Such is life in much of the Middle East. And it's part of the problem in Israel: waqf lands were at least in part Ottoman lands, and those became British lands, which became Israeli/Jewish endowment (the usual translation of waqf).

Hamas is pissed, insisting that all of Palestine/Israel is Muslim waqf. Hezb has the same viewpoint, although I don't think they use the word.

[cool user name]

50. Ok, so the author is lying?

Do you have sources to refute the claims of Roselle Tekiner?

[Igel]

98. Lying is a strong term.

One that I need proof of before I assert it.

The alternative is to say that the author is conflating two different kinds of things into one category. There is an asymmetry in "rights" in some senses, in that Jews and Muslims share the rights of citizenship, but have different resources for "nationality".

But they also have different obligations. Non-Jews aren't drafted, for example. Is that a plus or a minus? If it's a minus, then there's the possibility of evening that particular score--if you serve, then you get pretty much the same privileges as far as citizenship goes.

Please note that Christians lose on both counts: they may not lease from the waqf or from the Jewish-only lands. They compete with Jews, Muslims, and others for the land that is not deed-restricted, to use American jargon. Keep in mind this 'endowment' system; it was common elsewhere in the Middle East, too, and is one reason that Jews and Christians didn't survive well as farmers.

[cali]

35. Though it is true

that most land in Israel is not privately owned and that there is clear discrimination, this is an unusual and arguable interpretation of citizenship. Read the laws and the Israel SC decisions themselves. (In fact, there's an Arab SC Justice)

This article claims that virtually everyone else is in error about the meaning of citizenship but the author.

Again, no doubt there is discrimination, but this articles claim that there art two sets of laws- one for Jews and one for Arabs, is incorrect, and a review of the actual laws shows it to be in error.

[Zhade]

53. "redeeming the land"? What kind of sick racist shit is that?

What, is the land "unclean" because Arabs lived on it?

What. The. Fuck.

[cool user name]

56. Don't yell at me ...

I'm just providing the essay to illuminate the two-tiered citizenship structure.

I had nothing to do with establishing the laws! :D

[Zhade]

60. Not yelling at you (you're one of the sane ones).

NT!

[cool user name]

65. Much appreciated.

Gotta go take my meds now.

}( :sarcasm:

[eyl]

71. She seems to have some facts wrong

First of all, what the tour guide in here first paragraph referred to as "national" lands were probably public lands, where no-one is supposed to settle. As for the 93% of Israel which is state-owned being off-limits to Arabs, I'll jsut offer a counterexample - most of Nazereth is built on such lands.

Didn't really understand her point re nationality<->citizenship

[Jacobin]

24. It is a Theocracy, ya know

[Behind the Aegis]

29. No, it is not.

:eyes:

[bridgit]

81. yes it is, up until recent memory the Israeli Knesset had a java script...

scrolling torah on the front page, it was only taken down out of political expediency.

do you have any idea, can you imagine the outcry of even american jews if the congress of the united state of america had a new testament with pages turning, blowing past in the winds of time...please

right-wing torah thumpers were instrumental in developing the west bank into prime real estate complete with watered tree-of-life gardens watered with the water rights of others and swimming pools filled like-wise

separate church & state NOW!

[rockymountaindem]

30. Israel is ruled by Rabbis?

I didn't know that!

[barb162]

38. Olmert a rabbi? Wow! That would surprise Olmert

[Scurrilous]

62. But he does like to insert prayer and biblical verses into his speeches:

Address by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert - The Knesset (17/07/2006)

http://www.pmo.gov.il/PMOEng/Communication/PMSpeaks/speechknesset170706.htm

<snip>

~ I wish to read from the "Prayer for the Welfare of Soldiers in the Israel Defense Forces". Millions of Jews – in Israel and the world – pray for the safety and success of those who defend our nation, from the Lebanese border to the desert, and from the Great Sea to the approach of the Arava, on the land, in the air and on the sea.

"May the Almighty cause the enemies who rise up against us to be struck down before them.

May the Holy One, blessed be He, preserve and rescue our fighters from every trouble and distress and from every plague and illness, and may He send blessing and success in their every endeavor.

May He lead our enemies under our soldiers' sway and may He grant them salvation and crown them with victory."

<snip>

~ I wish to conclude by reading an extract from Prophet Jeremiah:

"Thus said Hashem: a voice is heard on high, wailing, bitter weeping, Rachel weeps for her children; she refuses to be consoled for her children, for they are gone.

Thus said Hashem: restrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears; for there is reward for your accomplishment – the word of Hashem – and they will return from the enemy’s land.

There is hope for your future – the word of Hashem;

And your children will return to their land."

We will triumph! ~

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bridgit]

82. as the evangelicals are "said" to hold great influence over Bush...

something that is routine here @ DU, Rabbi's hold great sway over the politicians & policy apparatus of Israel how can it be otherwise; Iman's over Arab politicians and so forth.

why is this so hard to understand, do you actually think that Bush is the only politician capable of being lead astray...how can that be possible?

[barb162]

36. No it isn't You're thinking of the Arab and / or Moslem countries

Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc

[eallen]

45. US State Department Report on Religious Freedom in Israel

While no one should take this as a final analysis, it seems to me a good starting point, that gathers together quite a bit of factual information, most likely correct:

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51601.htm

Personally, I'm not much swayed by the argument that Islamic republics are much worse. Theocracies suck. Of the states with an explicit religious bias, a few like Israel and Turkey can be fairly judged as "not as bad as" the really horrific theocracies, like Saudi Arabia and Iran. That doesn't make it alright for a state to preference one religion over others. That just means there are degrees of religious favoritism.

:hippie:

[eyl]

73. Uh

would you mind pointing out, in the report you linked to, the support for your contention Israel is a theocracy (i.e. is ruled by religion)?

[AnOhioan]

77. Not saying that Israel is a theocracy but......

Have they ever had a Prime Minister NOT of the Jewish faith?


Take a look at US Presidents


Episcopalian 11

Presbyterian 10

Methodist 5

Baptist 4

Unitarian 4

Disciples of Christ 3

Dutch Reformed 2

Quaker 2

Congregationalist 2

Catholic 1

Jehovah's Witness 1

TOTAL 42

http://www.adherents.com/adh_presidents.html

Granted most of these are sects of of the Christian faith. I cannot find any sites that list the varied sects of of the Jewish faith that Prime Ministers practiced.

Also, the US was NOT founded on the Christian faith, despite some wingnuts saying so. Israel WAS founded on the Jewish faith.

My point being what would we call ourselves if every US President had been, for instance, Methodist? One religion, or one religious sect, having all the power in a country cannot be good.

[eyl]

78. You neglect to take into account, though,

that
a) Israel has a large Jewish majority
b) "Jew" deisgnates both a religion and an ethnicity.

So the fact that there has never been a non-Jewish PM is no more remarkable than the fact no American president was of a religion which ins't Christianity, or an offshoot of it. So that comparison is quite misleading.

And Israel was founded more on the Jewish ethnicity thn the Jewish faith - though the two aren't completely separable.

[pelsar]

80. so your probably worried about ireland as well.....

One religion, or one religious sect, having all the power in a country cannot be good.

[meti57b]

86. The Jewish faith does not have "sects" or "denominations".

We have "movements" but that is not the same as "sects".

[barb162]

92. Per Library of Congress: Israeli Arabs are citizens and vote

http://countrystudies.us/israel/23.htm

Israel Table of Contents
snip
"The Arabs who remained inside post-1948 Israel became citizens of the Jewish state. They had voting rights equal to the state's Jewish community, and according to Israel's Declaration of Independence were guaranteed social and political equality"snip

[breakaleg]

95. levels of citizenship in Israel

-snip-

CL: You are painting a picture of an Israeli government, with the support of a substantial part of its Jewish population, which aims toward permanent subordination of Palestinian Arabs within its borders, along with domination over something that might be called a Palestinian state but what would really amount to a dependent Bantustan. Essentially the same vision that motivated apartheid South Africa.

PB: Yes. And there are even more complexities. Within Israel there are really four levels of citizenship, the first three being various levels of Jewish participation in Israeli society, which are thoroughly racialized. At the top of the pyramid are the Ashkenazi, the white European Jews. At the level of power the huge contingent of recent Russian immigrants--now about 20 percent of Israeli Jews--are being assimilated into the European-Ashkenazi sector, though they are retaining a very distinct cultural identity.

The next level down, which is now probably the largest component of the Jewish population, is the Mizrachi or Sephardic Jews, who are from the Arab countries. At the bottom of the Jewish pyramid are the Ethiopian Jews, who are black. You can go into the poorest parts of Jewish West Jerusalem and find that it's predominantly Ethiopian.

This social and economic stratification took shape throughout the last 50 years as different groups of Jews from different part of the world came, for very different reasons, to Israel. So while the divisions reflected national origins, they play out in a profoundly racialized way.

The Yemeni Jews in particular faced extraordinary discrimination. They were transported more or less involuntarily from Yemen to Israel. On arrival they were held in primitive camps, and many Yemeni babies were stolen from their mothers and given for adoption to Ashkenazi families. In the early 1990s a high-profile campaign began to try to reunite some of those shattered families.

Beneath all these layers of Jews come the Palestinian citizens.

A rigid hierarchy, highly racialized both within and between religious or national groups, orchestrates Israeli social life. Much of it is legally enforced. The most significant difference between this scenario and other similar ones is in the world's perception of the Israeli reality. For the overwhelming majority of the world's population, South Africa was always considered a pariah state. But Israel is not in that position. Israel is given a pass, if you will, on the question of racism. Because Jews were victims of the Nazi Holocaust, there's a way in which Israeli Jews are assumed to be either incapable of such terrible racialized policies, or that it's somehow understandable because of what Jews went through.

But the new intifada has refocused attention on the nature and extent of Israeli racism, among other things. You have new reports from Amnesty International looking at the Israeli treatment of its own Palestinian citizens--minors, children, being arrested, beaten and held for days. Israel treats Palestinians, inside or outside the Green Line, as being less human than Jews. This is rooted in the very definition and Basic Law of the Israeli state. And the new intifada may give us a chance to challenge that apartheid character.

http://www.arc.org/C_Lines/CLArchive/story_web00_04.htmlhttp://www.arc.org/C_Lines/CLArchive/story_web00_04.html

[pelsar]

96. pretty funny article...

guess someone should tell all those sephadie jews in the knesset, as ministers, as generals...that they're really confused and should go back down to where they belong....

[Lurking Dem]

102. Yemeni Jews were

"involuntarily" transported??

You can start at Wiki but feel free to google "Operation Magic Carpet".

In 1922, the government of Yemen reintroduced an ancient Islamic law requiring that Jewish orphans under age 12 be forcibly converted to Islam. Early in 1948, the false accusation of the ritual murder of two girls led to looting.

This increasingly perilous situation led to the emigration of virtually the entire Yemenite Jewish community - almost 50,000 - between June 1949 and September 1950 in Operation "Magic Carpet". A smaller, continuous migration was allowed to continue into 1962, when a civil war put an abrupt halt to any further Jewish exodus.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemenite_Jews#Operation_.22Magic_Carpet.22

[4freethinking]

97. Israel is a Jewish state

So what does that mean? First and foremost it implies exclusion for a certain group people. Israel's laws are designed to preserve a Jewish majority so long as Israel exists. Certain parts of Israel's democracy does not extend to non-Jews. Their is no Basic Law stating that a non-Jew's rights are equal to that of a Jew in Israel.

Olmert: We will ensure Jewish majority

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert delivers speech during special Knesset session to mark Herzl Day, says: 'We must ensure that there will be a proven Jewish majority, otherwise the term Jewish state becomes empty of meaning'

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3248515,00.html

Olmert's words are no different than other Israeli leaders that have come before him.

Just ask yourself how would you go about preserving a perpetual majority for a certain group of people in a country? Here's a hint: It doesn't involve democracy or equal rights for groups outside the group that's being preserved or being made the majority for all time. Because if you gave equal rights or the same rights to other groups in Israel besides Jews over time you would not have a Jewish majority.