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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 06:13 PM
Original message
Well...this is a fascinating observation from a blogger!
facts be damned, it just doesn't feel right to criticize Israel …

If that's my reaction - and I'm very open to the sentiments Gaarder expresses and the facts behind them - I imagine the typical reaction among Americans would be even more negative.

I am intrigued at how deeply imprinted on the American psyche is our cultural bias in favor of Israel.

Or maybe it's just me. I grew up in a Christian cult that interpreted the Bible (well, the parts they wanted, anyway) literally - which included elevating Israel onto a pedastal of mythic proportions. We eschewed the pagan celebrations of Christmas and Easter, observing instead the same Hebrew festivals and Holy Days as Jesus - and a central tenet of the cult was a belief that the people of Great Britain and the United States are the descendents of Ephraim and Manasseh, two of the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel, with other countries in Europe representing the other tribes - France from Reuben, Switzerland from Gad, Denmark the tribe of Dan, etc.

(sorry Martin - Germans were considered the true latter-day descendents of the Assyrians, the biblical bad guys who carried off the lost ten tribes – and boy, does God ever have it in for you, you Sennacharib-lovers!).

Hence I grew up thinking the Jews were my physical as well as spiritual kinsmen.

I also read Leon Uris's QBVII, Mila 18, Exodus, and The Source in junior high and high school, along with Max Dimont's Jews, God, and History - so i was fairly familiar with the history of the Holy Land, the Diaspora, the Holocaust, and the establishment of Israel in 1948 - and I cheered Israel when they kicked butt in 1967 and again in 1973.

Far from anti-semitic, I was probably more "pro-semitic" than the average American.

A shift in my consciousness was prompted by Anwar Sadat's courage and compassion, as I realized not all Arabs were bad guys. Eventually I even dared to think that not all Israelis were automatically good guys. But though I've transcended my upbringing, nevertheless the picture of the universe formed in childhood still provides an unconscious context within which I evaluate what's going on in Israel/Palestine today. My initial gut reaction is almost always behind the Israelis - and then I check myself, step back and examine the facts of the situation, and with luck arrive at a more balanced view

(but one that doesn't automatically assume the Israelis are the bad guys, either).

Many of Gaarder's points ring true for me - for example, comparisons of Israeli policy and practice to South Africa's apartheid and Saddam Hussein's Iraq

(e.g., Iraq violated 16 U.N. resolutions and had no weapons of mass destruction after 1991; Israel has violated 70 U.N. resolutions and does have weapons of mass destruction, including nuclear weapons they won't officially admit).

Even more compelling for me is his agreement with a point Joseph Campbell often made. Campbell notes that Israel owes its existence to the power of a mythological idea - which it does. (This is a point Campbell makes about mythology, not about Israel - he's not suggesting Israel should be disbanded or doesn't have the right to exist.)

After World War II there was much debate about what to do with the DPs - "displaced persons," or refugees - who survived the concentration camps. There was even discussion of creating a homeland for them from part of South Africa - but momentum had been building for a Jewish homeland in Palestine since the end of the nineteenth century (and encouraged by the British government's Balfour Declaration of 1917) as growing numbers of Jews emigrated there.

Political considerations aside though, the Western psyche eagerly embraced the idea of a nation of Israel almost two thousand years after that nation had ceased to exist and her people mostly melted away. This idea clearly resonates with the biblical mythology that informed and shaped our civilization and still holds sway today.

Flip the channel to most religious broadcasters in the United States and there's not only unqualified unreflective knee-jerk support for everything Israel does, but also a near universal presumption that “the end times” or “latter days” prophesied in the Bible began with the establishment of Israel in 1948 (a conclusion based on the parable of the fig tree in Mark 13:28 – “Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves (out of season), ye know that summer (harvest time) is near” – which assumes the fig tree is a metaphor for Israel).

True, not every Christian in America so believes – maybe not even most – but certainly the noisiest. I think of Pastor John Hagee, who has the ear of the president, and publicly proclaims that we may be weeks away from the rapture as World War III breaks out in the Middle East – a war that destroys unthinkable numbers and ends at Armageddon in a confrontation between Israel and the United States against much of the rest of the world.

This thinking makes me nervous – especially when I hear secular neocons (like William Kristol) - the other group that has the ear of the president – claiming on FOX news that the Lebanon crisis is the opening salvo of World War III ... followed by the president wanting to give Israel enough time to redraw the map of the Middle East (“birth pangs,” as Condi Rice calls it).

But that’s wandering far afield from a focus on Israel’s actions.

The attack on Lebanon does seem an overreaction (it’s Lebanon’s infrastructure, not Hezbollah’s they’re destroying) as the death of innocent Lebanese civilians from Israeli bombs (far in excess of the handful of Hezbollah casualties) blunts outrage over the far fewer number of Israeli civilians killed by Hezbollah rockets. These and other facts do make me wonder about the morality of Israel’s actions, and Gaarder does a wonderful job of addressing those concerns:

If Israel is to be treated as the Chosen People, then her actions should be held to the same high standard to which God held the Chosen People in the book of Amos.

(Of course, that’s hardly a consistent standard throughout the Hebrew testament. God often commands His People to commit dastardly atrocities – particularly the slaughter of Canaanites, right down to male infants, and the taking of “fields which you did not plant, cities which you did not build” – though genocide certainly resolved the Palestinian refugee problem of the day ...

so I’m reticent about basing policy on God's concept of morality).

Gaarder’s suggestion of responding to Israel’s behavior with tactics similar to the boycott and pressure applied to South Africa that hastened the end of apartheid is certainly creative – though to be effective it requires collective action on the parts of nations, institutions, and individuals, which was slow to build against South Africa, and I suspect would be harder to sustain against Israel today

... especially in the United States, where any criticism of Israel, legitimate or not, is met with charges of anti-semitism.

The only direct comment I can find by Joseph Campbell on Arab-Israeli tensions is in response to a question posed by an interviewer wondering what the U.S. stance should be. Campbell suggested an even-handed approach – taking into consideration equally the concerns of all parties to the conflict.

It’s interesting that the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) has earmarked the term “even-handed” as revealing anti-semitic tendencies – so Campbell’s call for fairness to all in negotiations exposes his anti-semitism (which strikes me as an odd designation, given that the Palestinians are also Semites ...). When criticizing Israeli policies – even very bad policies that we criticize in other nations – whether right or wrong, you’re expressing anti-semitism ... and then the argument becomes no longer about a specific policy, but about racial and religious bias (shades of the Holocaust).

Of course, I don’t believe what some call the Jewish lobby has “orchestrated” America’s support of Israel. Fears of appearing anti-semitic does help keep the American left aligned behind Israel, while fundamentalist dogma and faith in the approaching apocalypse (which heralds the Second Coming) does the same for the American right ... but these motivations aren’t external (though outside factors certainly help reinforce them).

These come from within – which brings us back to that unconscious cultural bias.

A cursory reading of Gaarder’s essay seems to deny the existence of Israel, call for her destruction and the scattering of her people. A closer reading reveals that Gaarder supports Israel, but the Israel of 1948, not what she had become today. That, though, is obscure in the essay, and will doubtless be overlooked by those already inclined to disagree with Gaarder.

What do I think of the essay?

It strikes a chord – but could be better written. I suspect it will turn off more people than it enlightens – at least it will on this side of the Atlantic

- but it does open a discussion we must have, and ask questions we must face someday, if not today.

Nevertheless, I can’t shake that vague perception in the back of my head of doing something very wrong by even considering questioning Israel’s actions - sorta' like buying Mel Gibson a beer ...

http://www.jcf.org/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=2275&forum=27&7

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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. It would help if you would label which writings are yours,
which are the blogger's, which are from the one of the articles he's posted, etc.....

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Not MINE! it's Joseph Campbell's Website and a blogger
Bodhi_Bliss who is posting in response to this:

http://www.jcf.org/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=2275&forum=27&7
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Comments from poster: "Bodhi_Bliss"
Edited on Sat Aug-12-06 07:33 PM by KoKo01
and I apologize...because I thought giving the link...I made it CLEAR it IS NOT MY POST...but to go to the link to "Bodhi_Bliss" ...but, I can see where you would think I was posting THEIR POST as MY OWN! My Apologies...and when I went back to credit at beginning the "time had elapsed" to Edit DU Posts.

I apologize again...on Saturday Night I COOK and if I post it's always interuppted by angry growling stomachs...asking why I haven't put the "roast or chicken in the Oven YET!"

Sorry...I did jump to post and should have credited "Bodhi_Bliss" so that folks wouldn't think it was my OWN POST even though I gave the LINK at the end so folks could read more with the attributions... Sorry...My Bad...:-(
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Ah, I see it now - I didn't scroll down far enough to see that your
post was a quote of bodhi's post - I thought you were mixing stuff from that blog site along with stuff from one or more of the articles posted in that blog, and then with your commentary interspersed. It was very confusing, and you didn't state that it was all one person's post that you posted; and that person's post is written in a way that it really looks like two or three different things are going on.

But I totally understand the hunger thing. I've also made some posts when I had to go the bathroom so bad, I just threw something down and hit enter so I could run! And then later\ realize it was an ugly, nonsensical post done waaaaay too fast.

Thanks for the explanation!
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AlamoDemoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. Good find KoKo01. I give you my unsolicited k&R
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
4. Yes, it opens a discussion... namely, when can you get rid of the Jews?
I don't find it a productive discussion.

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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. whoever wrote that might feel "vaguely wrong" in criticizing Israel,
but I sure don't. "If Israel is to be treated as the Chosen People"--a DUer was reprimanded on another thread for having the audacity to remark about that. Sorry, they can't have it both ways. Israel is either a country and subject to the laws and codes of conduct that a country must observe, or a religious body that one can dismiss as a heap of fables and superstitions, just as one can dismiss any religious BS, with no special privileges granted simply because their particular mythology places them on some exalted pedestal.
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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Sure
That works for us rational people but how about people who think any discussion of Israel at all is wanting to "get rid of the jews."

I can only roll my eyes at them and try to engage people with minds a little more open in conversation.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. yes, I know what you mean--& don't know how to answer it
--though I do regard religious dogma/belief as 99% crackpot BS, I do believe in karma, and Israel (and the U.S., for that matter) now has a load that will bite them in the butt.
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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Even if you're not into Karma
Plain old rational common sense will tell you can can only get away with being a bully for so long before one of the bullied has had enough. And sinc they don't have planes and armies and bombs becasue, well, they've been losing the fight for the past 1000 years, they turn themselves into bombs. I have no doubt that if the tables were turned and the US and the west didn't have bombs and fighter jets and long range missiles, then crackpot christians would be the suicide bombers.

I happen to think all three major religions are full of crackpots who will never get along because so much that they have vested in self, boils down to their religion. And how can they accept others while still believeing they have the one true path to god and rightousness.

Frigging religious nuts of all stripes are going to kill us all then say that it was "god's will." Crackpots, the lot of them!
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. That's very harsh and simplistic....go into your Brain..and heart and OPEN
yourself UP TO DISCUSSION...and then think more upon it in your HEART! :shrug: We are ALL SO AGONIZED...can't we open a dialog? Why not?
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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. How about because
Because if you try to have a discussion, you're branded an anti-semite.

I'm anti all dogmatic religion that turns people into killers for their faith.

And I am open to discussion. I can see the wrongs perpertrated by both sides and see the blood on everyone's hands. but go ahead and think what you want.

Me: I don't think Israel should be killing civilians sleeping in their beds. I don't think those babies were legitimate targets.

Them: Israel has a right to defend itself!!!!!!!!

Me: I don't think cutting redcross or redcrescent aid to dying old women and children is a legitimate tactic

Them: YOU WANT TO DESTROY ISRAEL WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Me: Eye Roll. Yeah. Whatever.

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. I'm in the little know Camp of: "What's good for Humanity and Life for
Children" is Worth PRESERVING. No LOSS OF LIFE without a thorough VETTING of those who WANT TO TAKE LIFE!!! NO WAR for PROFITEERS who see "CHILDREN AND OLD AS PAWNS!" NO INVADING SOVEREIGN COUNTRIES because WAR PROFITEERS HAVE GIVEN YOU INTELLIGENCE INFO...that MIGHT be FAULTY!

NO WAR...IT KILLS and SUPPORTS TERROR! NO WARS for PROFITEERS who ARE NOT ACCOUNTABLE!!!

WHY SHOULD ANYONE/ANYWHERE support CARNAGE where the Little Folks always DIE and the PROFITEERS PROFIT? Tell me WHY? :cry:
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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. You'll get no argument
From me on that one. And yet the war profiteers are sowing the seeds of future war by raising another generation (on both sides) with nothing but hatred for each other.
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
12. This Jew hasn't melted away
Every time we tried ... Spain in the 15th century, Europe in the 20th ... circumstances remind us that we are a distinct group.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Fredda...I've always read your posts here...
and understood where you were coming from...but, isn't it time for us to Throw AWAY OLD MODELS and try to bring some "Fresh Air" into discussion?

We are stalemated into OLD PARADIGMS of discussion...What will MOVE OUR PLANET FORWARD. THIS KILLING ON BOTH SIDES FOREVER ..IS...CRUEL and INHUMANE? ISN't IT?

It's killing ME!
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. BTW...NO ONE is looking for Jews to "melt away." How could you say that?
Edited on Sat Aug-12-06 08:08 PM by KoKo01
because it makes it seem that anyone who questions what's gone on in "Palestine/Lebanon" just "doesn't get it and wants "Jews to Melt Away." Oh NO!

Without Jews our CREATIVE ARTS and INSTITUIONS would VANISH. I owe a DEBT to the JEWS that I still have some Creative Freedom Alive in the Bush WASTELAND!!!

I know very well how much Jews have contributed to our American Society in the Arts and Entertainment and FREEDOM OF SPEECH and the rest.

I understand this. But, I also know there are questions amongst Jews themselves over this POLICY by Olmert...and that it's open to discussion..and we NEED TO DISCUSS...because WITHOUT IT...WHO ARE WE? WHAT ARE WE? I don't know....if we shut it down. :shrug:
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. best of luck
:)

I hope you don't think you're the first to try the rational approach.
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Who said Jews should "melt away"?
So much of the hardline Israeli support seems to have a heavy streak of religious paranoia running through it. It's the same paranoia you see in American Chrisitian Fundamentalists, who are convinced, against all evidence, that the country is out to "destroy Christianity".

You seem to be equating criticism of Israeli policies with- not only anti-semitism- but genocide. That's quite a leap.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
13. in FlatEarth Friedman's book 'From Beirut to Jerusalem
tom actually gloats over this fact: we westerners (including greek/russian orthodox xians!) grew up with visions of 'israel' taught to us from childhood, re christmas, and no matter what happens, the 1948 version of israel has this affect on christians, and therefore israel really doesn't need nuklar weapons etc as the west just couldn't allow the arabs to crush it anyway (friedman also giggled over mordecai vanuunu's inadvertantly serving israel's interest by exposing her nuke status, at same time as he let israel deny deny deny it etc)
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. I wished so much that I had grown up in a Kibbutz that my Christian Friend
Edited on Sat Aug-12-06 08:53 PM by KoKo01
thought I was CRAZY! What they didn't understand was that my reading of "Diary of Ann Frank" and other books about WWII had "molded me" so much in favor or Israel that NO ONE could have convinced me that the Citizens of Israel late in my life WOULD EVER ATTACK FOLKS ON THEIR BORDER AND DO GENOCIDE AND DO THE VERY STUFF THAT WAS DONE TO THEM in All Those BOOKS I READ..being a "War BABY" and of the "age" where the "Holocaust" was very CLOSE in our Consciousness. :shrug:
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
23. Locking per I/P guidelines
Not based on a recent news or op-ed article.

Lithos
DU Moderator
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