Talking only to ourselves

[Violet_Crumble]

By Daniel Ben Simon

I am trying to recall when I last saw Israeli leaders talking with Arab leaders about peace, and finding it hard to remember. In recent years, our compulsive tendency to talk to ourselves about an agreement with the Arabs has been strengthening, as though the real conflict in the Middle East were between the right and the left. The fruitless discussions between these two tired bodies have had two goals: to neutralize any possibility of change and to freeze the reality on the ground, for fear that any step toward peace will ignite a domestic war among the Jews. And if we are already fated to go to war, say our architects to themselves, it is better to have a war against the Arabs. It is torturous to think that had similar diplomatic energy been invested vis-a-vis Palestinian leaders, Lebanese leaders and Syrian leaders, perhaps everything would look different. Perhaps we would even be living in peace with them.

Is it possible that the miserable war in Lebanon and the endless slaughter in Gaza are an outcome of the lack of willingness to talk with our neighbors? When was the last time we tried to talk to the Palestinians about their future and about our future? When was the last time we sent out probes to the Lebanese about signing a peace agreement with them? When was the last time we tried to renew the truncated negotiations with the Syrians about the possibility of arriving at a peace agreement?

For six years now Israeli politics has been at a standstill. Ever since prime minister Ehud Barak shoved Palestinian Authority chairman Yasser Arafat into the lodge at Camp David in July 2000, there has been no serious contact between an Israeli leader and an Arab leader with whom we are in conflict. The result is dreadful. Israel has slammed doors on its neighbors and has made up its mind to set arrangements on its own, in dialogue with itself, while ignoring its neighbors as though it were a lone juniper tree in the desert. It is possible that for this insult, we are now paying the price.


To a large extent both the slaughter in Gaza after the disengagement and the war in Lebanon prove the failure of the unilateral approach. How is it possible, asks every reasonable individual, that we pulled out of Lebanon and they are attacking us? How is it possible, asks every reasonable individual, that we pulled out of Gaza and they are still attacking us? Is it any wonder that the lack of gratitude on both these fronts has led many Israelis to the conclusion that hatred for Jews is imprinted in the Muslim genome and that the urge to go to war is imprinted in the Arab character?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/751458.html

[FlavaKreemSnak]

1. Thinking people should be grateful

if you partially stop occupying them or even if you stopped occupying them at all sounds like it could maybe be something they could think about, I mean that sounds like what I was talking about in that other thread, that for a long time I didn't even think about something like whether America gets to say if somebody has weapons or a right to self defense. That is the kind of value that people just get taught and get so used to that they don't think about it, or how it can cause a lot of problems, because the point of view is going to be so different for the victims.

So a better idea would be to think about what if somebody else was saying that they were the ones to decide whether you could have weapons or if you would get occupied in the first place, etc. But I don't think too many people will consider it, because they would get called a terrorist sympathizer. Which is too bad because that is also another thing that might help to think about but I doubt very many people here or in Israel will do it.

[breakaleg]

2. Great article.

It certainly paints a picture of Israel building walls and pulling into themselves which will lead to the need for bigger weapons etc. to protect themselves from their neighbors. That hasn't worked in the past and it certainly isn't working now.

Maybe with this debacle they will realize having bigger weapons isn't enough and that talking is the only way to peace.

[TomClash]

3. Let me be the first to vomit

"We speak with our friends . . . as if we were lowly vassals" :puke:

"How is it possible, asks every reasonable individual, that we pulled out of Lebanon and they are attacking us? How is it possible, asks every reasonable individual, that we pulled out of Gaza and they are still attacking us? Is it any wonder that the lack of gratitude on both these fronts has led many Israelis to the conclusion that hatred for Jews is imprinted in the Muslim genome and that the urge to go to war is imprinted in the Arab character?" :puke:

His main point is valid, though. He's quite right about talking, though since Israel wants to occupy ever larger swaths of the West Bank and all of Jerusalem, no right of retrun is in the cards and some muslims still seem dedicated to Israel's annihilation, there's not much in the Big Picture to discuss. But many smaller issues could be discussed and resolved and that's a way to start.

[Violet_Crumble]

5. To be fair...

"We speak with our friends...as if we were lowly vassals" is pretty much spot-on in the context it was in: 'Instead of speaking with our enemies we speak with our friends, not to say our patrons, the Americans, as though we were lowly vassals. We have adopted English almost as a mother tongue and we relate to Arabic as almost an existential threat. Thus far, the subordination of our lives, our values and our future to the Americans has not proved itself. We have never been as insecure as we are today.'

And in the second quote, he's talking about what Israeli perceptions are. He's not saying that's how he thinks or that's how Israelis should think....

All in all I thought it was an excellent article and he is so right about there being a need to start talking to the Palestinians and the Lebanese etc rather than just talking amongst themselves...

[TomClash]

7. Yes, it's the Americans fault

What nonsense. Clinton dragged them both kicking and screaming to Camp David and it's the Americans' fault Israel can't talk to the Palestinians? Total bullshit.

Subordination of their lives to the Americans? Are you kidding? The United States and American foreign policy would be far better off with a more balanced approach to the conflict than the present policy. The writer greatly underestimates the influence of American jews, neo-cons and conservative "Christians" advanced in the current Administration. The US is often as much the tail as the dog in its relationship with Israel.

Unilateralism - and its abject failure - was an Israeli policy, not an American one. Anyone who has spent ten minutes in Palestine could figure out it was doomed to fail from the start.

We should talk to the Arabs. Yawn.

[MrPrax]

6. Agreed...

The writer asks questions he already knows and still is unwilling to call it a mistake or any of it...wrong or anything.

I found this statement problematic as well:
Is it any wonder that the lack of gratitude on both these fronts has led many Israelis to the conclusion that hatred for Jews is imprinted in the Muslim genome and that the urge to go to war is imprinted in the Arab character?

Dishonest...the same is true in reverse, but the writer wont admit it:

"...Is it any wonder that the lack of gratitude on both these fronts has led many Arabs to the conclusion that hatred for Arab is imprinted in the Israeli genome and that the urge to go to war is imprinted in the Israeli character?

He can't bring himself to 'symmetry'; he thinks they should talk, but hasn't written anything to talk about and as such is basically just as guilty as Israeli leadership. He's not interested in talking outside the 'settled logic' of Israel's illegal occupation and the insistence that Hamas or any representative is going to be 'a terrorist' is designed to avoid any negotiations.

In fact, there were negotiations privately going on just two months ago with Palestinian and Israeli representatives. A few years back there was a concerted effort for Israeli officials and Palestinians to hammer out a Peoples' Voice Agreement by Yossi Beilin. It was Sharon that walked out of the Geneva Round and marched to the Temple Mount.

The writer sentiments are basically the official line...if there is something Israel doesn't want to negotiate, then they won't negotiate. He's being totally disingenious to suggest that they simply 'talk' again.

You are right...the basic outlines of the disagreement haven't changed one iota...so what incentive is there for the Palestinians or anyone else to talk to a regime that seems pretty well bent on expansion, not security.

But this line is really too much:
Thus far, the subordination of our lives, our values and our future to the Americans has not proved itself. :puke:

Yeah right...but they do come in handy if you need a quick supply of smart bombs.

The writer should have gotten a AIPAC thank you letter, he might be have been more charitable to America. ;-)

[TomClash]

8. Very good post nt

[cali]

4. Excellent article

If only Israel's leader could show a fraction of this kind of reflection..