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What's the difference between a Zionist and a Jew?

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maxrandb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 08:36 AM
Original message
What's the difference between a Zionist and a Jew?
I know I can look up the definitions in the dictionary, but I was puzzled by something in Mike Wallace's 60 Minutes interview with the Iranian president. I was extremely surprised to learn that there are Jewish members in the Iranian Parliament. I understood the Iranian president to say he was not anti-semitic, but was anti-Zionist.

I consider myself well traveled and not stupid, but I find it fascinating that there are Jewish people in the Iranian Government. Kind of like my shock to learn that Tariq Azziz from Iraq was a Christian.

Am I missing something here? I'm aware that there are Arabs in Israel, but for the life of me, I can't comprehend Jewish people living in Arabic countries, unless the rhetoric about the hate and annihilation of the Jews is a lie, or half-truth. How is it possible for Jews to live safely in Arab countries? and, What is the distinction this guy was trying to make between Zionist's and Jews?

I think I can find the Webster's definition, but I'm curious about DU's take. Thanks
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. A zionist believes Israel was given to the Jews by god.
Edited on Fri Aug-18-06 08:39 AM by Vash the Stampede
Not all Jews believe this. http://www.nkusa.org/
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maxrandb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. OK. Makes sense, but
shouldn't God have issued a deed or something? Would make it a lot easier to swallow.

Reminds me of the Monty Python line. "Pulling swords out of stones for a half naked lady in a lake is no way to choose a leader".
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I feel the same way.
But I don't argue that Israel shouldn't be there really. It's pointless. They exist now and that's that. What I do argue is that any claims to land (such as Jerusalem) in coming to a peace agreement with the Palestinians based upon Biblical nonsense is just that - nonsense.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. All those Jewish structures thousands of years old...
Edited on Fri Aug-18-06 09:22 AM by IanDB1
including the remains of The Holy Temple (where Jesus assaulted the money changers, by the way) kind of present a compelling case for prior ownership.

The Bible aside, all their stuff is there.

God may not have "given them a deed," but if you dig a hole in the sand, you'll find their name on mailboxes that are thousands of years old. (That's a metaphor, by the way).

There are ancient Hebrew artifacts under thousands of years worth of sand.

It's certainly more compelling than a claim that Mohamed briefly touched his foot upon a rock in Jerusalem while Allah was carrying him through the air, thus claiming all of Israel for Islam.

The Christianists have their rock which allegedly has a man's footprint next to a dinosaur's to "disprove" Darwin, and Muslims have their rock that allegedly has Mohamed's footprint to claim ownership of Jerusalem. I give equal weight to both.

However, as Muslims were occupying Palestine for decades before The United Nations Mandate, the Palestinian people are entitled to their own state on political and humanitarian grounds.

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Actually,
Edited on Fri Aug-18-06 08:47 AM by cali
it's my understanding that zionism simply means the belief in a Jewish homeland. Many zionists are not religious at all. Now there are all flavors of zionism, including expansionist zionism, and those that do believe that the land of Israel was deeded to them by God, but they aren't the majority. In fact, as you noted, quite a few orthodox religious Jews are against the existence of Israel
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. You're probably more correct than I am.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Zionists are Jews who believe they need their own country...
because just about every other country in the world has, at some time or another, tried to kill them.

Their reasons for believing that Israel is the place to do it are varried.

It's like in Kindergarten when there are two kids won't stop fighting with one another.

Eventually, the teacher tells them they have to go play in separate sandboxes.

Zionists want to play in their own sandbox.


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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. Kind of you to express in such simple terms
that maybe, just maybe, I now finally grasp what zionism is / represents. Thank you.:)
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. You're
quite welcome. I think it was your countryman Orwell, who said something to the affect that writers should be able to express complex ideas in simple language. I'm certainly no writer, but I always thought that was awfully good advice.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. By god or by The United Nations. n/t
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. Well, before the UN, it was by god. (nt)
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. But not all Zionists believe that. n/t
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. I think I've recognized that elsewhere in this thread. (nt)
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. I'm not arguing with you, just fleshing out the subject lines. n/t
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
6. The Silent Exodus
Silent Exodus was selected at the International Human Rights Film Festival of Paris (2004) and presented at the UN Geneva Human Rights Annual Convention (2004)



In 1948 nearly one million Jews lived in Arab lands. But In barely twenty years, they have become forgotten fugitives, expelled from their native lands, forgotten by history and where the victims themselves have hidden their fate under a cloak of silence.

A people whom legend have always associated with "wandering" many of these Jews from Arab lands had lived there for thousands of years and accepted their fate, through good times and bad times.

But 1948, the beginning of their exodus, also saw the birth of the State of Israel.

And, while the Arab armies were preparing to invade the young refugee-country, the survivors of the Shoah were piling up in rickety boats. Meanwhile a few hundred thousand Arabs from Palestine were getting ready to flee their homes, convinced that they would return as winners and conquerors.

Soon - by a terrible twist of fate they, as well, began to fill up refugee camps and passed on their refugee status to new generations.

The Jews, however, did not receive refugee status.

They had just rediscovered the land of their birthright.

And if they came from Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iraq or from Yemen, if they had lost everything, even their relatives and their cemeteries, they were ready to rebuild their lives in the West and for many - in Israel - and try to forget their past.

Without ever asking for compensation or the right of return, or even wishing that their story be told...

More:
http://www.katinaproductions.com/rehov/purchase.html



See also:


THE ARABS WITHOUT THE JEWS: ROOTS OF A TRAGEDY
by MAGDI ALLAM
(translated from Italian by Lyn and Lawrence Julius)

Israel is the keeper of a mutilated Arab identity, the repository for the guilty consciences of the Arab peoples, the living witness to a true history of the Arab countries, continuously denied, falsified and ignored.

Seeing Pierre Rehov's documentary film 'The Silent Exodus' about the expulsion and flight of a million Sephardi Jews helped me gain a better understanding of the tragedy of a community that was integral and fundamental to Arab society. Above all it has revealed to me the very essence of the catastrophe that befell it, a catastrophe which the mythical Arab nation has never once called into question. In a flash of insight I could see that the tragedy of the Jews and the catastrophe of the Arabs are two facets of the same coin. By expelling the Jews who were settled on the southern and eastern shores of the Mediterranean centuries before they were arabised and islamised, the Arabs have in fact begun the lethal process of mutilating their own identity and despoiling their own history. By losing their Jews the Arabs have lost their roots and have ended up by losing themselves.

As has often happened in history, the Jews were the first victims of hatred and intolerance. All the "others" had their turn soon enough, specifically the Christians and other religious minorities, heretical and secular Muslims and finally, those Muslims who do not fit exactly into the ideological framework of the extreme nationalists and Islamists. There has not been a single instance in this murky period of our history when the Arab states have been ready to condemn the steady exodus of Christians, ethnic-religious minorities, enlightened and ordinary Muslims, while Muslims plain and simple have become the primary victims of Islamic terror.

<snip>

The fact remains that of the million Jews who at the end of 1945 were an integral part of the Arab population, only 5,000 remain. These Arab Jews, expelled or who fled at a moment's notice, have become an integral part of the Israeli population. They continue to represent a human injustice and an historical tragedy. Above all, they are indicative of an Arab civil and identity catastrophe. That is why to recognise the wrongs committed towards the Arab Jews - as the maverick Libyan leader colonel Gaddafi has recently done - by objectively rediscovering their past and millenarian roots, by finding again their tolerant and plural history and by totally and sincerely reconciling themselves with themselves, the Arabs could free themselves from the ideological obscurantism which has relegated them to the most basic level of human development and has changed the region into the most problematic and confict-ridden on earth.

More:
http://www.pierrerehov.com/exodus.htm

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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. This post is a breath of fresh air.
I'm recommending both films to Netflix. Thanks.
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Montauk6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
10. Maybe it's that we in the West assume all Arabs are Muslim?
Aren't there Arabic Jews among the Sephardim or Mizrahim(I believe the Falasha Jews are Ethiopian)?

And aren't Chaldeans Iraqis who practice Catholicism?
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. The original Zionist settlers thought of themselves as "Jewish Arabs"...
in fact, that's how many Middle-eastern Jews thought of themselves.

Unfortunately, when Hitler swept through and occupied North Africa and The Middle East, the Nazis spread the idea to the Arab leaders that Jews are a separate race. The Mid-East governments adopted that meme, and made it impossible for Jews to share in the Arab racial identity.



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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. They certainly had a lot of ground in common.
But history from the '20s and '30s in Palestine shows that not all was peaches and cream before the Mufti decided to live on Hitler's dime in Germany.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. You're right. That's all covered in "Silent Exodus." n/t
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. India's 'lost Jews' wait in hope. Jews in China and other "Exotic Places"
A team of senior Israeli rabbis is due to rule soon on whether thousands of Indians who say they are members of one of the lost tribes of Israel can settle there.

Shlomo Amar recently led a delegation of rabbis to the north-eastern Indian states of Manipur and Mizoram where members of the Benei Menashe tribe live and practise Judaism.

At the Beith-el Synagogue in the Manipur capital, Imphal, nine men wearing knitted skull caps read silently from the Old Testament.

Four others stand on a wooden platform in the centre of the room as a young man reads from the holy book under the supervision of an elderly priest.

These people claim to be one of the lost tribes of Israel.

More:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3575716.stm




Also:


Are There Really Jews in China?: An Update
Daniel J. Elazar

<snip>

There are four groups of Jews, or people of Jewish descent in China. The first are the so-called Chinese Jews of Kaifeng, now estimated at some 100 families totalling approximately 500 people. The city of Kaifeng, located approximately 300 miles from Beijing, contains the remnants of a Jewish community which flourished in the city from about the ninth to the seventeenth centuries, and which continued to be identifiably Jewish until the 1840s. The origins of the community are unclear, although they appear to be derived from an invitation extended by a Sung Dynasty emperor to a group of Jews to settle and manufacture cotton fabrics in Kaifeng, which at that time was the imperial capital. Approximately 1000 Jews responded as a group and formed a community, which reached its peak in the Middle Ages, when Jews from Western and Southern Asia (principally Iran, Afghanistan and India of today) were actively involved in the China trade. They settled in at least six other cities throughout China, including Beijing in the seventeenth century.

Of those communities, only Kaifeng Jewry flourished sufficiently to survive for a millennium, preserving some traces of their Jewishness until their synagogue was destroyed by an earthquake in the 1840s and the last of them assimilated. The only remnants of the community today are a knowledge of the site of the synagogue, upon which another building now stands; a stele from the Middle Ages with inscriptions of major events in the history of the community carved into it, but no longer legible; and a practice, still preserved by some, of avoiding the eating of pork. The surviving records and artifacts of the community have long since been transferred to Britain or the United States. I myself have seen one of the community's two surviving Torah scrolls in the Hebrew Union College library in Cincinnati. There are substantial records of the community's existence, compiled or written by Europeans, since the Kaifeng Jews were discovered by the Jesuits in the sixteenth century.

Beginning with the settlement of Jews in Shanghai, Canton and Hong Kong in the nineteenth century, some efforts were made to bring the Jews of Kaifeng back into the Jewish fold, but all of these came to naught. In my opinion, based upon the experiences of similar Jewish populations in other parts of the world which had also acquired an indigenous cast over the centuries and appeared racially different, these local Jews, living in a xenophobic environment, were afraid to identify with any foreigners. As a result, the Jews themselves hastened the process of their assimilation into the general society. Still the facts of their assimilation are murky. Some became "simply Chinese," as Professor Gao described them, but most became "white Moslems," who did not eat pork but did not practice traditional Islam either. To avoid pork in China is to set oneself truly apart and, in a civilzation where organized religion is virtually unknown, this leaves many questions unanswered.

<snip>

Thousands of Jews fleeing Russia, the upheavals of World War I and Nazism, found their way to China. They established communities in such places as Harbin, Tientsin, Mukden and Shanghai. For nearly half a century, Jewish life flourished in those communities, reaching a peak population of over 30,000. A kehillah (a formal Jewish community organization) was formed in Shanghai and for a few years, there were even yeshivot in the city, established by refugees from Nazism who left as soon as World War II ended.

After the Chinese Communist takeover in 1949, there was a mass exodus of these refugees, particularly to Israel, Australia, and North America. The communities were dissolved, leaving British-ruled Hong Kong as the only Chinese city with an organized Jewish life. By the early 1960s, only two Jews remained on the books in Shanghai out of a community of 20,000. The Joint Distribution Committee knew of a diminishing handful of others in other cities. It seemed that all the others emigrated.

More:
http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles2/china.htm



See also:

Jewish Communities in Exotic Places
by Ken Blady
ISBN: 0765761122


This unique volume looks at seventeen Jewish communities in Third World countries and chronicles the history of these groups by tracing their survival, exploring aspects of their culture, religion, and folkways. These Jewish communities are situated in remote places on the Asian and African Jewish geographical periphery, which, over the centuries, became isolated from the major centers of Jewish civilization.

Jewish Communities in Exotic Places examines seventeen Jewish groups that are referred to in Hebrew as edot ha-mizrach, Eastern or Oriental Jewish communities. These groups, situated in remote places on the Asian and African Jewish geographical periphery, became isolated from the major centers of Jewish civilization over the centuries and embraced some interesting practices and aspects of the dominant cultures in which they were situated.

<snip>

Table of Contents
Pt. 1. From the land of frankincense and myrrh. The Jews of North Yemen — The Jews of Habban, South Yemen —
pt. 2. Pariahs among ayatollahs. The Jews of Persia — The Djedid al-Islam (New Muslims) of Meshed —
pt. 3. Lost in the land of Assyria. The mountain Jews of Kurdistan —
pt. 4. On the Russian riviera. The Krimchaks of the Crimea —
pt. 5. From the land of the golden fleece. The Ebraeli of Georgia —
pt. 6. Samson warriors, Bar Kochba's heirs. The mountain Jews of Daghestan —
pt. 7. The people with the blue-stained fingers. The Tadjiki Jews of Bukhara —
pt. 8. A remedy for the evil eye. The Jews of Afghanistan —
pt. 9. Jewish untouchables? The Bene Israel of Bombay — The Malabaris and Paradesis of Cochin —
pt. 10. The "blue-turbaned Muslims". The Jews of Kaifeng, China —
pt. 11. Mellah, Medinah, Marabouts, and Mahia. The Judeo-Berbers of the Atlas Mountains of Morocco —
pt. 12. Cave rabbis? Cave synagogues? The Jews of Libya : merchants and cavern dwellers —
pt. 13. From the land of the lotus eaters. The Jews of Jerba, Tunisia —
pt. 14. The Queen of Sheba's lost children. The Beta Israel of Ethiopia.

More:
http://www.powells.com/biblio/61-0765761122-1

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idontwantaname Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
22. a zionist can be jewish, but not all jewish folks are zionists
zionism = ideology

judaism = religion and now-a-days an ethnicity
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IntiRaymi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
23. I hate the title of the Original Post. n.t.
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maxrandb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Sorry, can't change it now. Had a legitimate ? and tried to find
Edited on Fri Aug-18-06 01:39 PM by maxrandb
a different way to pose it. Understand that it reads like the opening sentence of a bad joke....

Mike Wallace asked the guy about anti-semitism, and the dude pointed out that there were Jews in the Iranian Parliament, then pointed out that he was anti-zionist.

See all this stuff about the Sons of Zion, and the Arab world screaming about Jews and Zionist, so I was curious of the distinctions. Our media make it sound that if you are anti-zionist, you're anti-Jewish.

Lots of informative posts hear that have helped me understand a little bit better
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
25. Locking
The topic has become extremely inflammatory in the misuse of a loaded word. Please note the following:

There are many types of Zionism out there. Zionism really means a return to Zion (Jerusalem). But this can and does mean many things including just cultural rebirth not linked to any nationalism (a return to roots culture), a religious rebirth, a physical return of Jews to Jerusalem, and for some the establishment of a Jewish country. Even Neturei Karta, the fringe extremist group are Zionists, contrary to what many here incorrectly try and portray them as. They fully support the idea of a Jewish country, they differ over how such a thing occurs. There are other groups which are labeled Zionist because they advocate for some of these elements.

There are also Jews who do not advocate for such things or who feel that such "renaissance" is passe and/or obsolete and would prefer not be labeled as Zionists.

The discussion of Zionism was and remains a hot topic inside the Jewish community. One thing which is very true is that Zionist is not equivalent to a Jew even though many try to conflate the two terms often in a derrogatory sense.

It also should NOT be used to assume a singular meaning which is a common mistake.

Why these two distinctions are important is that there is a form of anti-Semitism where bigots use a stereotypical form of the term Zionist as a way to attack Jews. Zionism carries at some level a notion of struggle in much the same way as the real definition of jihad which is a word which also is abused and often serving as part of a code word for bigots.

Context and preciseness of use are extremely important.

Lithos
DU Moderator
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