The Swastika and the Scimitar

[Fountain79]

Submitted for discussion...


http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MWM2NGQ4MzUwZThmNTAwNjZhYjVhYWFhYmFlNDVlOWY=

The Jews everywhere are “the Muslim’s bitter enemies,” said a prominent Islamic leader. Throughout history, the “irreconcilable enemy of Islam” has conspired and schemed and “oppressed and persecuted 40 million Muslims,” he said. In Palestine, the Jews are establishing “a base from which to extend their power over neighboring Islamic countries.” And, he proclaimed, “This war, which was unleashed by the world Jewry,” has provided “Muslims the best opportunity to free themselves from these instances of persecution and oppression.”

[MrPrax]

1. It's interesting...

You can go and search this site thoroughly and you rarely find anyone citing articles by the Right over at the National Review.

So how does this work?

The NR is completely wrong on everything from the democratic point of view -- but on this subject we are suppose to figure Jonah Goldberg (no friend to the Left) is right.

You guys are too much and NO I am not going to read Goldberg's bullshit anymore than I would read Ann Coutler

(hey she supports Israel's right to do whatever -- dare yeah to post up her hate speech)

[Fountain79]

2. I try to read..

what the right writes.(Did that make sense?) It's important to know what they are saying and to know the arguments they use. For the record I am on the side of Israel in this conflict.

[MrPrax]

3. So...

I read rightwing shit all the time...do I post it here, LIKE YOU'VE DONE? No...

But that fine...if the only stuff you can find that supports your point of view is Jonah Goldberg and National Review...then post away.

Anything that proves that the Supporters are rightwingers whose policies and ideas have been painfully wrong for the last 6 years is fine by me.

Hurts your cause, more than it helps.

[Fountain79]

4. Well if I wanted to...

I could find some extreme right wing shit, that would support what you believe. David Duke is no friend of Israel. I submitted the article for the sake of discussion, but you refused to read it and merely attacked the fact that it came from a conservative site.

[MrPrax]

6. You're starting to catch on...

Yeah...that's why I come to sites like this...where I am NOT exposed to rightwing hatemonger imperialist assholes that write or read the National Review, because they think they might learn something.

But why stop with this piece...they got a some good stuff about the GOP and Guiliani...could be people might want to read that other side too...and join him in San Francisco to help out his campaign.

Hey...great articles on the Court decision the other day:

EDITORS: Anna Diggs Taylor’s reasoning is ludicrous.

ANDREW C. MCCARTHY: The courts of the United States had no role — none — in defending this nation from foreign threats

BRYAN CUNNINGHAM: What's wrong with Judge Taylor’s opinion.

Wide range of opinion there...dying to know what they think about the Judge's ruling...jeez might learn so much that other point of view, that you could end up voting Republican, huh?

[Trajan]

5. National Review ? ....

Cmon .....

First ... the premise is completely wrong: Historically speaking: Jews have done 'reasonably well' in the oriental regime ... Islamic countries have welcomed Hebrews into their communites over the centuries, with few moments of degrading treatment .... They expected of Hebrews, like they expected of ALL non-muslims, a payment of a tax .... It was no heaven, but it was reasonably safe for them ....

Safer than with the christians, who erupted in pogram and massacre every few decades ...

So, right off the bat, the notion that throughout history, "the “irreconcilable enemy of Islam” has conspired and schemed and “oppressed and persecuted 40 million Muslims,", is simple nonsense ...

It is further nonsense to ascribe an eternal hatred of jews by muslims .... It simply isnt true, notwithstanding the last 60 years ...

Second ... Isnt it against DU rules to post links to RW websites ?

[BushOut06]

7. Racist bullshit

Ah yes, every time the neo-cons want to villify the Muslim community, they drag out the good old Grand Mufti Husseini and his alleged Nazi ties.

Let's ignore Bush's own ties to Nazi Germany, and focus on those brown Nazis. :sarcasm:

[maalak]

8. "alleged" nazi ties?

read this note from Himmler yourself... sure sounds like a nazi tie to me.



"To the Grand Mufti: The National Socialist movement of Greater Germany has, since its inception, inscribed upon its flag the fight against the world Jewry. It has therefore followed with particular sympathy the struggle of freedom-loving Arabs, especially in Palestine, against Jewish interlopers. In the recognition of this enemy and of the common struggle against it lies the firm foundation of the natural alliance that exists between the National Socialist Greater Germany and the freedom-loving Muslims of the whole world. In this spirit I am sending you on the anniversary of the infamous Balfour declaration my hearty greetings and wishes for the successful pursuit of your struggle until the final victory. Reichsfuehrer S.S. Heinrich Himmler"

there are surely other nazi ties in history worth examining... but please, don't downplay the historical connections in an effort to defend scum like Husseini.

[Trajan]

9. I think you mistake the gist of his comments .....

He is saying that Husseini's beliefs do not reflect the beliefs of MOST Muslims, and that to use this association between Husseini and Naziism as an indication of the general moral character of ALL Muslims, in general, would commit a fallacious appeal .... a sweeping generalization, so to speak ....

Are you stating that ALL muslims love Naziism ? .... Most of them ? ..... some of them ? .... few of them ? ..... Where did you obtain your data ? ....

[maalak]

11. they why call his ties "alleged"?

first off, nobody is claiming anything absurd like "ALL muslims love Naziism"...

what i objected to, and what i specifically requested was that in discussing this we don't try to downplay historical facts by saying things like Husseini had "alleged" nazi ties... is that too much to ask?

Husseini had a direct line to Eichmann and was considered one of their strongest allies and key to plans to eradicate Jews in the region:

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=26&story_id=29259&name=Nazis+planned+Holocaust+in+Palestine%3A+historians

to try and downplay who and what he was by claiming his ties were merely "alleged" is disingenuous, at best...

[Violet_Crumble]

14. What's disingenuous is overplaying his ties...

Wouldn't you agree? From what I've heard, the Nazis being the racist twits they were, held Arabs in deep contempt. Husseini was never considered one of their strongest allies at all....

[maalak]

15. he was the Nazi's "go-to" guy for the second phase of the Holocaust...

the Nazis may have been racist twits, but they also saw a very good reason to befriend the Arabs had they been succesful in Africa...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni#The_Holocaust

"Recent Nazi documents uncovered in the German Minstry of Foreign Affairs and the Military Archive Service in Freiburg <6> by two researchers, Klaus Michael Mallmann from Stuttgart University and Martin Cüppers from the University of Ludwigsburg, indicated that in the event of the British being defeated in Egypt by Field Marshal Erwin Rommel's Afrika Korps the Nazis had planned to deploy a special unit called Einsatzkommando Ägypten to exterminate Palestinian Jews and that they wanted Arab support to prevent the emergence of a Jewish state. In their book the researchers concluded that, "the most important collaborator with the Nazis and an absolute Arab anti-Semite was Haj Amin al-Husseini, the mufti of Jerusalem".<7> According to the German researchers Husayni was a prime example of how Arabs and Nazis became friends out of a hatred of Jews. Al-Husseini had met several times with Adolf Eichmann<8>, Adolf Hitler's chief architect of the Holocaust <4>"

[Violet_Crumble]

20. Like I said, yr deliberately overplaying it...

..and that imo is very disingenuous. All you did was post a link to Wiki (which btw isn't particularly credible given its past problems) that links back to the first article you posted. There's nothing in there that supports yr claims he was a close ally of the Nazis at all...

[cali]

25. Overplaying it?

Perhaps, but it was the poster who used the word alleged in regard to the Mufti's ties to the Nazis. Turnabout being fair play and all? Why don't you chastise that poster?

(Hi, Violet. Man, am I glad to get back to the regular rules and our customary bickering.)

[Violet_Crumble]

38. Definately overplaying it...

The poster claimed al-Husseini was considered one of the Nazis strongest allies. That's not true, and nothing they posted after that supported that particular claim...

I think the poster tried to make a mountain out of a molehill about the word *alleged* in regard to his ties to the Nazis. For me at least, it's very clear that he was enamoured with the Nazis, probably out of a mixture of his own antisemitism and out of them being the enemies of the British. Where words like *alleged* and *debatable* do come into it is when it comes to whether al-Husseini knew of the Final Solution, and if so, how much he knew*. I think it's highly unlikely given the shroud of secrecy deliberately covering the Final Solution and the Nazis record of not sharing much at all with those they looked down on racially - while Japan was very much a strong ally, one of the factors in them losing the Battle of Midway was due to them not having radar. Germany had sent them radar equipment but didn't consider Japan important enough to waste the manpower in sending a technician to fit it and show the Japanese how to use it....

* A really good book on the subject of who knew about the Holocaust and when is Walter Laqueur's book 'The Terrible Secret: an investigation into the suppression of information about Hitler's 'Final Solution'.' He focuses on Germany itself, the Allies, neutral European countries, occupied European countries, and world Jewry. While in Europe itself, there were growing rumours, and people were able to see that Jews were vanishing, abroad there wasn't the same in yr face evidence. Laqueur mentions that most Jewish leaders in the US, Britain and Palestine found it difficult to accept what evidence they were getting until it became so overwhelming that there was no mistaking what was happening...

p.s. Hi back at ya, Cali. I'll tell you what. The chaos of the past few weeks here at DU has made me appreciate you and our bickering :)

btw, that was meant to be a compliment but I'm not sure if it sounds like that, but you know what I mean!

[maalak]

26. you can email the researchers directly if you have questions...

... or question their credibility:

http://www.uni-stuttgart.de/hi/ng/mitarbeiter/mallmann-en.htm

http://www.uni-stuttgart.de/hi/ng/mitarbeiter/cueppers.htm

most of the coverage on this has been in german, which a simple google search would also find for you.

[Violet_Crumble]

39. I don't have any questions for them...

And it's yr credibility more than theirs that I have issues with, btw :)

[BushOut06]

10. The fact that a few Muslim leaders embraced Nazism means nothing

It's quite disingeneous to use what happened back during WWII to try to cast aspersions on Muslims today.

[maalak]

12. i agree, ( to a point... wouldn't say it means NOTHING) but...

to be fair it doesn't seem like critics here have any problems doing EXACTLY that in casting aspersions on Israel today by going that far back into it's history...

[maalak]

13. upon thinking about it, it might seem less relevant...

if we didn't hear such similar rhetoric from prominent and influential leaders today like Nasrullah and Ahmadinejad...

[BushOut06]

36. I haven't heard any anti-Semitic talk from Ahmadinejad

I've heard some anti-Israel talk, but not anti-Jewish talk from him. As he's quick to point out, there are plenty of Jews living in Iran, and some of them holding high public office. There is no persecution against Jews in Iran. He's against what he perceives as the artificially imposed state of Israel in an Arab territory.

[cali]

37. Plenty of Jews living in Iran?

I guess if you consider 25,000-30,000 out of a population of 75,000,000, plenty. Most of the ancient and once thriving Persian Jewish community now lives outside of Iran. And no, some of them don't hold high office. That's officially forbidden, though one seat in the Parliament is set aside for a Jew. There's plenty of discrimination though- officially sanctioned against not only Jews, but Ba'hais and Zorastians and Sufis. Iran is, in case you've forgotten, a fundamentalist state.

I suggest you do some reading, instead of tossing out incorrect information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews

[azurnoir]

16. Continuing to reference the Holocaust as a justification

of anything Israel or America does in the ME has gotten to the point of cheapening the memory of this horrible event. What gets lost is the concept and lesson of what happened and how it came to be. Just what do the words never again really mean? Never again to anyone, anywhere or never again to Jews. It can and I fear will happen again, not to Jews but to some other group. Was Hitler a rabid anti_Semite(I'm not saying he was not) or was an opportunistic ambitious megalomaniac psychopath, a man who understood all too well the meaning of "nothing unities the people like a common enemy".
Discussion of current events in the ME should stay in the here and now, the grand mufti and his nephew are both dead and gone, as are Begin,Ben Gurion, and almost Sharon. The wrongs of the past have to be put aside by both sides for true progress to begin.

[maalak]

17. then why do Nasruallah and Iran's leadership continue to deny it?

as long as there are prominent leaders who take the stand of attacking the Holocaust and incorporating that into language against the state of Israel as it exists today, the it stays very much relevant to the discussion.

[azurnoir]

18. To be honest I don't know for sure

could be a case of tit for tat they say it did and so its OK for us to to do this, this and that to them and them says it didn't because this, this ,and that are not OK to them. Because the Holocaust is sometimes used to appear to justify the confiscation of land from the Palestinians to acknowledge it would appear to be in agreement with the fate of the Palestinians? Just a guess .

[maalak]

19. how so?

that's an interesting way to look at it, although i'm not sure i understand what you mean. i'm thinking more about what you said earlier:

"What gets lost is the concept and lesson of what happened and how it came to be."

this is exactly why i think it's important to try and put things in a historical context. growing up i was never taught the Holocaust was a justification for anything, but it always was a very grim reminder of what can happen.

[azurnoir]

22. Are you viewing this as a Jewish event or a universal one

It has happened again in Cambodia, that time the enemy group was anyone who had been tainted by western culture, who was a professional of any kind teacher,doctor,nurse, businessman, anyone who spoke English or French. I believe 4,000,000 people died that time. And while it was happening the whole world looked the other way. Here in America the MSM did not carry any reports at the request of the government, the American people have already had to much pain due to SE Asia was thye going line..

[maalak]

27. does it really have to be one or the other?

i think it's possible to view the Holocaust both as Jewish event and a universal one...

really any form of genocide should be considered well past trying to isolate it by it's victims.

i don't see how this negates the fact it's relevant to discuss one that vocal leaders in the world of fundamentalist Islam are actively and vocally trying to denounce and dismiss...

[azurnoir]

34. Absolutely not

The way the media plays it however is a different story. Most young people learn about the Holocaust as a Jewish event, something that happened in their grandparents or great-grand parents time and is being "harped" on today, as a historical lesson it becomes "white noise".

In truth there are still many neo-Nazi groups in the EU and America but these days most of them focus on Muslims, it is better PR for them.

[Violet_Crumble]

21. Genocide has happened many times since then...

It can and I fear will happen again, not to Jews but to some other group.

Cambodia. Rwanda. Bosnia. There's been others, but they're the ones that come straight to mind...

[azurnoir]

23. Yes it has

my thought when writing was that the US could be ripe for this, another 9/11 type event could trigger it with Arabs being the victims this time.
on edit:
When I first started exploring political sites I came across not only sites like DU but also sites like Jihadi Watch and Little Green Footballs, these sites truely shocked me at the time but what is truely frighten is reading both during recent events and the cartoon riots anti-Moskem statements almost word for word the same as on hate sites coming from DUer's not new trolls but old timers who were/are very liberal in every other way

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Marrak]

28. Zionism - will it lead to peace in ME?

Why does the Zionist state hate the U.S.? Why does the U.S.'s racist-apartheid "ally", ("the chosen") turn over one-billion people around the world against the U.S.?

It's pretty much like the U.S. couldn't find it's arse with both hands...let alone it's self-interest!
:patriot:

[maalak]

29. is your solution to abandon Israel...

... and let those who would destroy it have their way and wipe it off the map?

is that how you define "peace"?

[Marrak]

30. Please!

I think we have an enormous opportunity to leverage our power with Israel to forge a lasting peace. I think alot of Arab leaders and countries around the world feel that way. Check out the GWOT BS and the massive expenditures that have ensued. War is easy and peace will be very, very difficult to achieve. But we must recognize what we've done over the past 60 plus years has been a failure. We have the possibility with bold, new leadership to change that, to turn this situation around. We can start by recognizing that our lockstep support for "the chosen" achieves nothing but hostility and world-wide insecurity. We need to stop reinforcing the idea that "zionists" puppetmasters control our foreign policy. The U.S. needs to demonstrate some objectivity and even-handedness. Quit shipping bombs and death-technologies to Israel...show 'em we are serious about change!

The Mufti this, the Nazis that, the Irgun this, the King David Hotel bombers that, Palestinians this, His'ballh that...ennuf with blowing smoke up-my-arse. We've chased our tails long enough. Let's invest in our security and not propping up this BS myth that Israel interests and U.S. interests are the same. It has has gotton us worse than nowhere...we are in the hole as far as world opinion goes. Doesn't help that our position has been an afront to human dignity! Wake-up and smell the qwawa!:patriot:

[maalak]

31. please review this sample of children's TV in Egypt...

2nd from the top, and let me know if you still feel the same way:

http://www.memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S5&P1=165#

here is the transcript:

Egyptian Cleric Sheik Muhammad Sharaf Al-Din on a Children Show: The Jews Are the People of Treachery, Betrayal, and Vileness

Following are excerpts from a children's program hosted by Egyptian cleric, Sheik Muhammad Sharaf Al-Din, which aired on Al-Nas TV, on June 21, 2006:

Muhammad Sharaf Al-Din: A Jewish woman invited the Prophet Muhammad to a meal. Why? Because she was clever. She said that if he was truly a prophet, he would know (the food was poisoned), and we would know he is a prophet. But if his claim to be a prophet was false, he would die, and we would be rid of him. She knew the Prophet liked the right leg of a lamb. The Prophet liked the right leg from the front. She put poison inside. After the lamb had been slaughtered, skinned, cut, and cooked, she put poison in the meat of the leg she knew the Prophet liked.

Muhammad likes to eat from the leg, someone else may like to eat from the liver, another may like to eat from the head, and another may like to eat from the tongue of the slaughtered animal. People like to eat different kinds of meat. The Jewish woman was told that the Prophet liked to eat the right leg, so she brought one and put poison in it.
After the lamb was slaughtered, skinned, cut, and cooked, it was served to the Prophet Muhammad. When the Prophet Muhammad said "In the name of Allah"... A Muslim must say "In the name of Allah" before eating. When the Prophet said: "In the name of Allah," and cut off a piece of meat, and was about to eat it, our Lord resurrected the lamb, and made it say: "Don't eat me, I'm poisoned, oh messenger of Allah."

<...>

Ruqaya, what did you learn from today's show?

Voice of Ruqaya: I learned that the Jews are the people of treachery and betrayal...

Muhammad Sharaf Al-Din: Allah Akbar! Say Allah Akbar! What did Ruqiya say? The Jews are the people of treachery and betrayal. May Allah give you success. We want mothers who teach their sons Jihad, the love of Allah and His messenger, sacrifice for the sake of Islam, and love for the countries of the Muslims. Loving the country of the Muslims. May Allah bless you, Ruqaya. That is the most beautiful thing I have heard - that the Jews are the people of treachery, betrayal, and vileness.

[Marrak]

32. Very recent article

Which reinforces my notion of the amount of work to be done.

[maalak]

33. and you really think the best way to start that work...

is to abandon Israel and let those who would destroy it achieve that goal?

[Marrak]

35. abandon Israel?

Well our blind "support" of Israel really hasn't done much for world peace, now has it? Seriously, just because I would propose that the U.S. begin to act in it's own self-interest, rather than toe the Israeli line on everything...does that imply the "abandonment" of Israel in your mind? Does it imply Israel's "destruction"? If so, you may be hyper-sensitive...don't Zionists believe their state is "viable" in this day and age? :patriot:

[Violet_Crumble]

40. Here's how to start that work...

Sorry for refusing to talk in the absolutist black and white, *good* vs *evil* crap that you seem so fond of, but the obvious start is for Israel and the Palestinians to start talking. A negotiated settlement that brings about safe and secure borders for Israel and a Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank is the key to starting to work on things, not the US pouring more and more $$ into the Israeli military so it can arm itself further to the teeth and continue to destroy the infrastructure of places like Lebanon and Gaza....

[maalak]

41. it would be nice if they could....

but every time they've sat down to talk, and been willing to give and negotiate... they've been met with more violence and no stop in the rhetoric about the "evil of Jews", or the "glory of child martyrs" or the goal of wiping Israel off the map. the people doing the negotiating have so far been completely unable to reign in the extremists.

i don't think i've ever broken down this conflict in "abolutist" terms of good vs. evil... there are rational voices and legitimate concerns on both sides of this conflict.

but i will say that until you get the extremists like this...

http://www.memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S5&P1=165

... to stop preaching hatred & destruction then no amount of talking by leaders in the Arabic world who are unable and/or unwilling to reign them in will make a difference... cutting off our support of Israel will *not* make that more likely to happen.

[Lithos]

42. Locking per I/P guidelines

Inflammatory, vanity article.

Mr. Goldberg's main credentials are not history, nor is it Middle Eastern analysis, but rather that of serving as a mouthpiece/agent to an extreme RW thinktank whose sole purpose is to spin and lie. He gained fame promoting several paranoiac conspiracy theories concerning the Clinton Administration and now using similar tactics to justify the invasion of Iraq and an attack on Iran.

In this article, Mr. Goldbergpromotes the use of stereotypical view of history to promote an even more stereotypical viewpoints. Points such as citing singular Muslim "leaders" to try and whitewash a whole religion is as correct an exercise as trying to cite a few Jewish "leaders" in order to promote specific detailed statements of belief. Both Islam and Judaism are not only unorganized (no formal religious hierarchy), but the adherents to both are extremely multi-cultural in nature. For someone to make such a claim is either a sign of great ignorance or purposeful misleading.

Dr. Herf's excellent work is likely to be a seminal study which will engage scholars for years to come. One lesson Dr. Herf advises is to be on guard for the effects of paranoia and how it is being used to affect public opinion. And while it is obvious the President of Iran is using such a mechanism, it is also rather obvious such mechanisms are being used here.

Lithos
DU Moderator