IDF enters Jenin in raid expected to last several days

[Gimel]

Large numbers of Israel Defense Forces troops entered the West Bank city of Jenin on Thursday, in an operation expected to last several days.

The city was placed under curfew as troops aimed to dismantle
the terrorist infrastructure and confiscate weapons stored
by Palestinian groups.

In the Gaza Strip, a Hamas activist was killed and three IDF soldiers were wounded, one seriously, during an arrest operation in the Nuseirat refugee camp in the early hours of Thursday morning.
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/341720.html

[Gimel]

1. How does the IDF operate?

This Time article talks to some of the soldiers and follows an operation:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101030922-485741,00.html?cnn=yes

[tinnypriv]

2. I can't wait for the invasion of Gaza!

Isn't Israel calling up reservists right now?

I heard it'll take 40,000 and a division for each section.

Probably better to have a bullet in Arafat's head before doing that though...

[DuctapeFatwa]

3. You can buy the IDF a pizza and get a US tax deduction

For real. There's a website, there's one to buy them a burger, too.

Killing and maiming little kids all day, a fellow really works up an appetite.


edit to add links, I know there are many who will want to take advantage of this opportunity to give the sharon regime gunmen a yummy treat while they think of the Palestinian child malnutrition rates. They've already caught and passed the Congo!

http://www.pizzaidf.org/

http://burgeridf.org/

[tinnypriv]

6. What about free Pepsi?

Thirsty work deliberately shooting journalists you know.

[LastDemInIdaho]

10. Who is deliberately shooting journalists?

Any chance you could post something to back up such a claim?

[Violet_Crumble]

11. Here you go...

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/03/1051876900057.html

[tinnypriv]

15. Sure, how about direct video evidence?

http://homepage.mac.com/justice4jamesmiller/aptn.mov

Nice shouts of "WE ARE BRITISH JOURNALISTS" (carrying a white flag) before 3 slow, deliberate shots fired from an Israeli APC (no previous gunfire) kill James Miller, a courageous British citizen.

http://www.justice4jamesmiller.com

Don't even bother trying to rationlise the murder of one of my fellow countrymen either.

Now, run along.

[LastDemInIdaho]

16. I will look into your example

Now what about the others? Your post said there were more than one.

[Violet_Crumble]

19. Watch the video...

I've seen it and it's chilling stuff. My guess is if yr given five different incidents, you'll ignore them and demand ten. Or maybe you'll pick out one of them and try to poke holes in it and pretend it was an accident, or label it collateral damage. Here's a site that has a lot of information on journalists who have been killed during the conflict....

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/israel.palestine/links.html#02

Violet...

[LastDemInIdaho]

23. Thanks for the links

I can't do video on this machine - I'll check it later. The links don't say that the IDF was targeting the journalists listed.

My question was your plural usage of IDF trying to kill them and working up an appetite.

[tinnypriv]

22. More video evidence

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/israel.palestine/

This time the journalist is Nael Shyioukhi.

The shooting is about 3 minutes in.

...

When I used the plural of journalist, I meant it.

Now, I trust that we've established that yes, IDF soldiers have indeed deliberately shot journalists. You can feel free to disagree with my contention that doing so is "thirsty work" however.

...

Extra clarification: I do not believe Israel has deliberately shot journalists, and if you read my post correctly you'd notice I didn't claim this.

On the other hand, the GOI does foster an environment of lawlessness, breeding a culture of impunity within the IDF on this matter. The GOI also shamelessly lies repeatedly about the subject.

I'll assume this footnotes my original post sufficiently BTW.

[Gimel]

25. While you guys

have your orgy, you missed the article by a journalist who traveled with the IDF. The Time article posted:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=14494&mesg_id=14496&page=

[tinnypriv]

30. Big deal

The BBC already did this once. Showed raids and everything.

In a narrow sense, the IDF soldiers are courageous.

In the bigger picture, they're implementing a colonial occupation policy.

My grandfather served in Palestine. Same thing - he was a brave man and thought he was helping people. He was actually stopping self-determination for both people and upholding British colonial interest.

[Gimel]

42. " they're implementing a colonial occupation policy"

Then you seem to be denying the right of Israel to exist.

[tinnypriv]

43. Give me a freaking break

If I meant Eretz Yisrael I would have said so.

The WB isn't Israel.

[Lurking Dem]

44. "The Land of Israel"

means what to you?

[tinnypriv]

46. I use Eretz as a shorthand for an expansionist policy fueled by ideology

In detail: Israel's borders are roughly those recognised by the US, UN etc right after the 1948 war.

Essentially, I find "Land of Israel" to be a useful shorthand, given the contemporary connotations it has.

[Lurking Dem]

47. I find your use of the phrase

misleading and offensive. Just like using "Zionism" to refer to expansionism is misleading and offensive.

Use "expansionism" to mean what you say and leave the "connotations" in your head.

[Gimel]

45. redeployment

The current phase of the conflict, the redeployment of troops in the PA areas occured only after months of Intifada II, which continued with 33 months of suicide attacks.

Give us a break. The redeployment is not to defend Jewish settlements in the West Bank. It doesn't even do that.

[rini]

26. I know

who is threatening/killing who?


On Monday, Palestinian journalists in Ramallah staged a sit-in at the offices of Al-Arabiya to protest the assault against freedom of the press. On Saturday, masked gunmen destroyed their office. The attackers had identified themselves as Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigades

Sources in Ramallah said the 24-hour Arabic television channel has received numerous threats over the past few weeks from many Palestinians who complained that the station's reporting was biased in favor of Israel and the US.

Walid al-Omari, chief correspondent for rival Al-Jazeera, said he believed someone in the Palestinian Authority was trying to intimidate Al-Arabiya.

http://haganah.org.il/israel/

[Violet_Crumble]

33. What's yr point?

The IDF deliberately shot and killed a British journalist, and you come back with a story about Al-Aksa destroying an office. Y'know that doesn't make the killing of the British journalist go away or become any more palatable...

Violet...

[rini]

35. accident vs deliberate

[Darranar]

36. I still don't get it.

n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

37. I do...

Rini is trying to say that she believes Israels deliberate shooting of the British journalist was an accident, despite video footage proving the complete opposite....


Violet...

[Darranar]

38. Oh...

I've got it now. Thank you.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Darranar]

40. See post #38...

you appear to be completely wrong, sorry to say.

[Equinox]

12. Too funny!

Killing and maiming little kids all day, a fellow really works up an appetite.


Hilarious, but fucking sad at the same time.

[tinnypriv]

5. Ooops, make that 50,000!

http://images.maariv.co.il/channels/1/ART/541/937.html

Genius.

Jenin-apologists, start your engines! :eyes:

[MrPrax]

4. Maybe they have started early

Dunno if it's a plant...
but Jane's is reporting...
"Foreign Report can reveal that the Israeli government is planning an onslaught on the Gaza Strip. This is because, our informant said, its former policy of containing Palestinian violence, including the murder of the Hamas leadership, has failed.

The idea is to launch an intervention in October, once a series of Jewish holidays have finished.

Since the beginning of the intifada, one of the cornerstones of Israeli military policy has been to kill the leaders of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah-Tanzim. The Israelis believe that these groups are behind Palestinian suicide attacks. In almost three years, more than 100 leading Palestinian militants have been killed by the Israelis."

http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/fr/fr030917_1_n.shtml

[tinnypriv]

7. Something missing from that article

It is possible the plan will be implemented before the Jewish holidays (new year and such).

They're taking into account how "calm" the situation is. If there are no suicide bombings, Arafat isn't killed etc then they'll wait until October. If it heats up, they might go in right away (which begs the question whether the military wants it to heat up).

BTW, I dunno what this "our insider tells us" BS is from Foreign Report. This has been all over the mainstream Israeli press (as usual) for a while. It is hardly a secret.

IMO it sounds like they're pretending to be Debka to rake in subscriptions.

[Gimel]

8. Two-forked plans

So Hamas is getting help from Hizbullah (according to the Jane's article) and Arafat is making contacts with Hamas to promote a cease-fire, just as the IDF is mounting a massive clean-up the terrorist job. It's a typical response, to offer peace at such a juncture.

[LastDemInIdaho]

9. I don't see any problems with this mission

I consider dismantling terrorist infrastructure and confiscating weapons stored by Palestinian groups a step towards peace.

That and a "Hamas activist" would not shoot at soldiers trying to arrest him. He would have to be a Hamas terrorist to behave in the manner that he did.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. I'm sure you wouldn't...

After all, the suffering of civilians just doesn't come into the equation for some people unfortunately...

Hey, if Gaza has been walled off, what the hell is the IDF doing in there? Sounds to me like it's an admission that the wall theory doesn't work...

Violet...

[LastDemInIdaho]

17. You lost me there

How does "dismantling terrorist infrastructure and confiscating weapons stored by Palestinian groups" make innocent civilians suffer? Israel is targeting the bad guys here - not the innocents.

[Violet_Crumble]

20. Yr not aware of the civilian casualties?

Or the curfews? Or the roadblocks? Or house demolitions? It seems to me that Israel and a few people in this forum get themselves very confused about who the bad guys and the innocents are...

Violet...

[LastDemInIdaho]

24. Seems to me these things were not needed when Israelis were not suicided

Do you expect Israel to just let the terrorist run free without taking any risks to bring them to justice and stop them from killing again and again.

[Violet_Crumble]

28. So you support collective punishment?

Okay, explain to me how house demolitions brings a suicide bomber to justice. Did you kind of miss the fact that they're dead already? How do checkpoints within the Occupied Territories bring them to justice? All that does is impose a collective punishment on innocent civilians. Same goes for curfews. Trying to justify these sort of actions by claiming they're actions to stop suicide bombings is about the same as someone getting mugged then going home and kicking their dog and patting themselves on the back for showing the mugger what happens when someone tries to stop them from mugging again and again...

Suicided? I think you mean murdered if yr talking about Israeli civilians...

Violet...

[Equinox]

14. Great! When do we get to dismantle the GOI!

I'm glad and relieved that you want to dismantle terrorist infrastructure. So when do we get to work?

[LastDemInIdaho]

18. Lead the way.

Let's roll!

[Violet_Crumble]

21. I think 'we' was referring to the US...

In which case you'll be sitting there saying 'let's roll!' till yr old and grey...

Violet...

[Equinox]

27. LOL...I was referring to the GOI...but, VC, I have a feeling you're,

correct.

[Violet_Crumble]

29. It doesn't matter anyway...

I think we lost LastDem several posts ago. ;)

Violet...

[Jackie97]

31. People from the IDF are not civilians.

Therefore, it is not terrorism to shoot at them in a war.

[DuctapeFatwa]

32. Terrorism is any opposition or resistance to bush or sharon regimes

"You are with us, or you are with the terrorists."

George W. Bush

Never have so many been so astonished to discover that they were terrorists.

[Jackie97]

34. I've always like the question asked to Bush's statement.

"You are with us, or you are with the terrorists."

What's the difference?

[rini]

41. A new family moved into the 'hood

http://haganah.org.il/israel/archives/000909.php