Shiites increasingly critical of Hezbollah

[Behind the Aegis]

Hezbollah is increasingly coming in for criticism for taking the country into war and causing untold suffering for the residents of southern Lebanon and the southern neighbourhoods of Beirut. The Shiite mufti of Tyre has gone so far as to disagree with the radical militia’s claim of “victory” over Israel “given the losses we endured.”

In villages in the south destroyed by Israeli air strikes, many survivors are timidly talking about how their homes were used to hide weapons and rockets. In some places, up to 90 per cent of the residents, even those with Shia majorities, are expressing their opposition to Hezbollah.

Sayyed Ali el-Amin, the mufti of Tyre and Jabal Amel, is voicing this growing restlessness. Speaking to various TV stations and newspapers (like An Nahar), he rebuked Hezbollah for dragging the country into a war with the population unprepared. He pointed out that “the fact that Shiites fled goes to show that they were not in favour of the war.”

The mufti, who is one of the leading religious figures in the Shia community, has also rejected Hezbollah’s claims of “victory”. In an interview with LBC, he said: “We cannot speak of victory. <. . .> Our losses are far greater than those of the enemy.”

more...

[Bucky]

1. I think Eisenhower once said something about the people demanding peace...

... and that when that day came, the governments of the world needed to get out of their way. While that's a nice thought, it sure is taking the people a long time to get around to demanding peace.

[endarkenment]

2. Well then we can expect Hezbollah to fade away real soon.

Somehow I suspect that this is not exactly reliable information. But I could be wrong. Hey how's Olmert doing with the Israeli population?

[Kagemusha]

4. They want his butt thrown out ASAP, but have worse alternatives.

The worse alternatives are nonetheless somewhat more popular than before.

[The Magistrate]

3. An Interesting Article, Sir

There is no room for doubt that munitions and fighters were dispersed among the non-combatant populace, and equally certain that this was not in all cases a fully voluntary co-operation. There is a rather sentimental strain of thought enjoying some circulation concerning how support is maintained by armed militant organizations, but the fact is that where there are carrots there are always sticks as well.

Some of the Mufti's comments point up another great divide among the Shia, namely between a traditional quietist view, that this gentleman seems to maintain, and the newer doctrine that religious leaders should wield political authority directly. That latter is not the traditional view of Shia clerics.

[bemildred]

5. I am curious Sir ...

Since we are speculating, what you think might be the consequences of the second rise of Bibi? If you have time for it.

[The Magistrate]

6. Too Nauseating To Think Of With Dinner Coming Up, My Friend

That man is distasteful to contemplate, extremely so.

There really seems no alternative but to hope Kadima can hold on, with or without Mr. Olmert, the Likud alternative being too depressing, and Labor seeming to be a wholly spent force nowadays. The secret weapon in the case would have to be the widespread Israeli distaste for Likud's domestic policies, and the widespread dislike for the settlers' movement that a Likud victory would certainly put in the driver's seat.

[bemildred]

8. Very well Sir, enjoy your dinner.

I can't say I blame you

[The Magistrate]

22. Since We Could Hardly Get Noticeably More Off-Topic, Mr. Mildred

Should Netanyahu return to power, it is hard to forsee anything but an execution of the policies pressed to the point of Likud's break with Sharon. Even the less than wholly satisfactory unilateral withdrawls from ground over-run in '67 would be off the stage. There would be no chance of soldiers withdrawing ever from the present Gaza incursion. There would be a resumption of settlement expansion in the Jordan valley coupled with the re-introduction of settlements in Gaza. There might well be a resumption of occupation in south Lebanon, despite any U.N. presence. Hard to say how long it could all be sustained; force can do a great deal, and remains the best bet even on the morning of the day it all breaks down shortly after noon....

[bemildred]

25. Thank you Sir.

I see I was right to ask. It had not occurred to me to think that anyone would consider re-occupying Gaza or Lebanon a good idea. I was thinking more in terms of trying to shove all the Arabs across the Jordan, or something like that. I thought it obvious that the present situation is not sustainable, let alone making it worse, but I see I am wrong.

[The Magistrate]

27. My Custom, Sir, Is To Take People At Their Word

Netanyahu's faction denounced the Gaza withdrawl very strenuously. He has said, and there are others who agree, that the withdrawl from Lebanon only emboldened the opposition, by providing something that could be claimed a victory over Israel by one of the militant militias, and that the Gaza withdrawl was an echo of it in another key. Returned to power now, what other course would a man take but a triumphant "I told you so!" and the energetic reversal of damnable mistakes he denounced for years? Netanyahu is moved by as potent and poison a faith as Nasrallah and his ilk, though the precise proportions of religiousity, nationalism, and conviction of racial superiority differ somewhat, and the resultant brew is heady enough to dispell reasonable calculation as we might define it. All these people are sure they are they are right, and that accordingly their success is assured if only they hold tight, and press on hard enough and long enough.

[bemildred]

28. Ordinarily, in dealing with politicians, I would question that.

However, in the case of Bibi, when it comes to these issues, you may well be right. I understand Lieberman is on the rise too, that should lead to a heady witches brew, if it comes to pass. One longs for a plain, dishonest, but intelligent political whore intent on the peaceful enjoyment of his position at times. At least one knows what to expect.

[The Magistrate]

33. Some Of My Best Friends Were Whores, Sir

As a class of people, they are consistently under-rated....

[Behind the Aegis]

35. I thought it was interesting. I found it by accident.

I thought it was interesting because it takes on the argument of "uber" support of the Shi'ia for Hizb'allah. I have not seen many reports to the contrary, which is why I found this article so interesting.

It also points to "hiding among civilians." That notion seems to be largely dismissed by many here. I also cross-posted this in a LBN post where the title was something like "51% want Hizb'allah" disarmed. In that article, the Shi'ia were mostly against disarming, which is why I found this article to be relevant. It also begs the question, what news really comes out of places like Lebanon?

[IntiRaymi]

7. Propaganda piece, Caveat Lector.

"spero news" is a christian news agency, and it will contain the corresponding editorial guidance. Take a look at the list of topics from the Wiki, which is included in the main site:

http://www.speroforum.com/site/wiki.asp?id=HomePage

If you look around the website, you will get a sense that it is run by the arch-conservative 'wing' of the Catholic Church. Consider the following articles:

"When Thinking Of Opus Dei Forget The Rich Attack"
http://www.speroforum.com/site/wiki.asp?id=WhenThinkingOfOpusDeiForgetTheRichAttack

"Dominion Theology"
http://www.speroforum.com/site/wiki.asp?id=DominionTheology

[scarletwoman]

9. You are citing a non-mainstream source with an anonymous author.

As such, I do not believe that your post conforms to I/P guidelines:

A note on sources:

Please use discretion when referencing obviously biased or factually questionable material. Vanity websites are generally not as credible as the New York Times, the Washington Post or the UK Guardian and are likely to be locked. A good rule of thumb is to ask yourself is the author readily identifiable and likely to be cited by the mainline world press or encountered in an alternate format (mass-published book, academic journal, newspaper article, radio or TV show). (my emphasis)

sw

[The Magistrate]

11. My Guess, Ma'am, Is That It Falls Within The Parameters

It is not a vanity site or a mere personal indulgence. Most any commentary on this subject is biased to some degree. There is nothing unreasonable about what the Mufti of Tyre is quoted as saying: there are factions among the Lebanese Shia like there are everywhere. As regards popular support for Hezbollah, we are now into the Sunday morning after the heady Saturday night, and doubtless any number of people are having second thoughts....

[scarletwoman]

17. You're missing the point. If this article were from the Daily Star,

or Ha'aretz, I'd have no problem with it. But there's no author named. There's no AP or UPI or Al Jazeera or any other recognized news organization citation. Just an anonymous author's "report" that so-and-so said such-and-such. Does the Spero website have its own journalist in Lebanon?

Did this story appear in any other news outlet? Who did the translation from Arabic to English? There's simply no information given that would enable the reader to ascertain how the Spero website acquired this story.

Isn't that the point of the I/P guidelines? To be able to accurately trace the source of any news stories that are posted? I want to know from whence the Spero website acquired this story, who is the reporter and where is (s)he placed?

If there are no answers to these questions then I think my objection is completely reasonable.

sw

on edit: To be fair, I see upon a closer re-reading that "various TV stations and newspapers (like An Nahar)" are cited as sources for the Mufti's remarks. I still object to the anonymity of the author of the piece -- is the author someone fluent in Arabic, or is (s)he merely passing on someone else's translation/interpretation of this news story?

[The Magistrate]

21. The Article, Ma'am

Cites as sources for the Mufti of Tyre's words interviews in An Nahar and by the Lebanese Broadcasting Corporation. Both of these are respectable enough, though anti-Syrian in stance. What the "Spero" people probably have is a stringer who monitors the local media and presents his or her employer with digests of what is said therein.

[scarletwoman]

23. Which I acknowledged in my edit (which you may have missed)

I would still prefer to know who is doing the "digesting", since it is abundantly clear in any number of cases that translated news is often spun news. I still do not think that it is unreasonable to want to know who is doing the translating and whose agendas they might be promoting.

Isn't that the whole point of the I/P guidelines stating that only "identifiable" authors should be used as news sources?

Since the whole letter of the law on DU seems to mandate that any discussion that somehow references Israel in any fashion - no matter how oblique -- gets shunted down to I/P, why shouldn't one expect that adherence to the I/P guidelines be enforced with equal stringency?

sw

[The Magistrate]

24. Enforcement Of The Guidelines Here, Ma'am, Is Not In My Hands

My guess might be better informed than that of many, owing to past experience, but remains a guess, and any comment I would make would have an air of the antique, rather like someone explaining policework before finger-prints and radio dispatch. But the purpose as I recall was to cut down on deliberately imflammatory materials, which are less likely to be found on more established sites then on those which are at bottom personal projects. If the Moderators in charge here feel this article is outside the guidelines as they enforce them, they will doubtless act against it, my participation notwithstanding, no more than any other member's view of the matter would effect their ruling.

[scarletwoman]

26. I understand. I already knew you were no longer moderating I/P.

I just wanted to make clear, to someone whom I consider to be a reasonable person, the rationale behind my objection.

sw

[scarletwoman]

20. From the guidelines: "is the author readily identifiable?"

No, the author is not identifiable. The author is unnamed. Is that clear enough?

sw

[Behind the Aegis]

34. Why is this an issue?

The same can be said of "Olmert Denies Destroying Hezbollah Was War’s Aim," which is also a thread here. The main point is that news not come bigoted or vanity sites. The one I used is neither. It is more a compilation, much like we see when we see releases from AP or UPI with no "author readily identifiable."

The fact that the article provides where certain comments came from, lends itself to a little more honesty than some I have seen here where the entire article is based on an "anonymous" source. However, there is a certain amount of discretion allowed, otherwise we wouldn't have articles from overly biased sites.

Do you have an opinion to what was actually in the article?

[oblivious]

10. Asia News, the original source, is basically a Christian missionary site.

From About Us on their website - a certain bias:

The AsiaNews Chinese web-site serves as a means of information. Yet it is also serves as a way to make educational tips and suggestions via news, testimonials, reflections, and the words of the pope and church personalities –all of which all bolster the Church’s mission in China.

We wish to place the beginning of our mission on the internet under the protection of St. Francis Xavier, whose feast day we celebrate today (Dec. 3) and who died desiring to go to China. He is the patron of foreign missions and is venerated in China and throughout Asia.

This effectiveness -at a distance- adapts well to our brand of news service, while being far yet near to the heart of the Church in China and her people.

http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=127

[The Magistrate]

12. Doubtless, Sir, That Explains Their Interest In Lebanon

A country with a substantial Christian population. Are you arguing that any source with any religious connection is to be treated as suspect?

Or do you think it absolutely certain every Lebanese Shia thinks Hezbollah is just the cream on the cat's whiskers today?

[Tom Joad]

13. I have read stories where there popularity is way up among all

sectors of the Lebanese public. though no doubt there are critics, too.

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=34254
Hezbollah Rides a New Popularity
Dahr Jamail

BEIRUT, Aug 7 (IPS) - As the war in Lebanon approaches the one-month mark, and amid the destruction of much of Lebanon, Hezbollah appears to be gaining strength within the country and around the Arab world.

The Israeli aim of widespread bombing of the Lebanese infrastructure in order to create resentment against Hezbollah seems to have played into the strengths of Hezbollah.

Hezbollah, known in many western countries as a "terrorist organisation", is widely seen in Lebanon as a legitimate political and social power.

[The Magistrate]

15. The Popularity Of Armed Men, Sir, Is Always Difficult To Truely Gauge

The safest reply to give a person who is going to be clear of the neighborhood in a few hours, when one must remain living next to them, is obvious....

[oblivious]

14. For heaven's sake. Look at their 'Muslim' section. Any objectivity there?

http://www.asianews.it/cat.php?l=en&cat=5

I'm just following up on posts 7 and 9 warning people that this is a highly biased source. I have no comment on whether the Shiites are indeed more critical or not. How could I possibly know? But this is not a source I would go to in order to find out.

[The Magistrate]

16. Are You Refering, Sir

To coverage of the story of a convert being thratened with death, or to coverage of the backing off of a government from reform of radical Koranic schools?

[oblivious]

18. I'm referring to the whole section. Even you must see a pattern.

MALAYSIA
Death threats against Lina Joy, fighting for her life and religious freedom

LEBANON – EUROPEAN UNION
EU must generously help Lebanon rebuilding to avoid Christian flight

BANGLADESH
"Carte blanche” for madrassahs of extremism

LEBANON – IRAN
Shiites increasingly critical of Hezbollah, its so-called ‘victory’ and its ties to Iran

PAKISTAN
Radical Islamic politicians accused of blasphemy

MALAYSIA
Poster calling for death of lawyer involved in the Lina Joy case

INDONESIA
Radical Muslims: Delayed execution of three Catholics is Vatican’s “fault”

Dossier articles
Islam - Fundamentalism: "diabolic" union between religion and politics

ISLAM - Islam condemns violence? Sometimes it’s only opportunism

Islam - Islamic terrorism: a result of what is being taught at madrassas

Islam - Islam and Christianity: encounter/confrontation, but also ...

[The Magistrate]

19. They Seem To Take A Different View Of Such Matters Than You, Sir

Different than mine as well, perhaps. But these are generally actual news stories. Three members of a Timorese militia, who are Christian, were recently sentenced to death, and the Vatican has asked for mercy: the government, for a variety of reasons, has delayed execution, and is being criticized for it by radical clerics. What is wrong with covering it?

It is quite true that some maddrassas inculcate a doctrine of violent jihad: are you disposed to deny that? Should the fact be hushed away, because it is inconvenient to some political lines?

[oblivious]

29. Don't put words in my mouth. I have not suggested it be 'hushed away'.

I have never supported any form of censorship in my life, on DU or elsewhere.

Nowhere above have I suggested closing the thread. I merely pointed out in completely unambiguous terms above that this was a biased news source. Shame on you for putting words in my mouth.

In fact I like this thread so much I'm going to bookmark it.

[The Magistrate]

31. What You Have Done, Sir

Is suggested that because an organization does cover such matters, it is clearly biased, and not to be taken seriously as a source of information. That is, Sir, close enough, as they say, for hand grenades and horseshoes, to suggesting such items not be covered at all.

In all the energetic disparragement of the source of the article, there has been very little comment on its content, in which there seems no obvious distortion, nor much of anything said that seems beyond the bounds of reason for someone in a main-line cleric's position to have said. That interests me strangely. Is it an article of faith that no Lebanese Shia hold Hezbollah in any but the highest conceivable regard? Is a statement to the contrary of this proposition therefore by definition false and concoted for some evil purpose? Can there be no doubt that anyone whose home was flattened due to the nearby presence of Hezbollah fighters yet considers them nothing but selfless heroes who have brought pride and power to the comunity? Or is it simply an incontrovertible fact that no Hezbollah fighters or cached munitions were ever anywhere near where an Israeli bomb or shell fell?

[oblivious]

30. One more thing. I'm a practising Catholic in Chinese territory.

So my views are not necessarily that different from some of those on the Asianews website. I'm merely pointing out that it is not an objective news source, particularly regarding Muslims.

[The Magistrate]

32. We All Amuse Ourselves As Best We Can, Sir

My sympathies in that matter lie more with the Chinese government than otherwise: Chinese experience of Christianity from the establishment of the Factories has been mixed at best, to put it mildly....

[Behind the Aegis]

36. This will sound snide.

I apologize is this sounds snide, but, you clearly understand that any source can be biased. What I find interesting is that you seem to be complaining because you feel that Chinese sources are not objective to Muslims. Interestingly enough, Islam is an "approved" religion in China, but Judaism is not. so I have to wonder, where does the real bias lean?

[Lurking Dem]

37. It is my understanding

that Judaism is now officially recognized in China.

There have been Jews in China since the 8th century. Many Jewish communities were started as people fled the Pale and while many left when religious restrictions became stringent, many stayed as well.

There is a Jewish hospital in Shanghai that is renowned there and interacial marriage.

The Muslims in China, namely the Uighur (Uygur), have been treated dismally. Far worse, really, than anything the big bad Israelis have supposedly done. Including nuclear testing on their land. In addition to limiting the number of children they have to be given a quota first (which can take 3 or 4 years) and are fined into poverty if they have children before that. They were forbidden their language at university and religious dress, etc.

[oblivious]

38. Chinese sources??????? Asia news is an Italian organisation.

If you think Asia News is an objective news source, or no less biased than any other news source, well, I'm speechless. I tried to write something, but words fail me.

You say I'm "complaining because Chinese sources are not objective to Muslims"? I feel like I'm Alice, fallen down the rabbit hole. Nothing makes sense.

I give up.