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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-03 07:45 PM
Original message
Symposium: Leftist Anti-Semitism
Anti-Semitism today has been in the works since Arab Muslims joined forces with Nazi Germans in the 1930s..Soviet Russia stepped up the propaganda and alliance with Arabs and over a period of 55 years literally indoctrinated/educated Arabs and Western intellectuals both on the Left, in the academy, and in the media to see despotic Arabs (and suicide bombers) as "victims," Israelis as "victimizers." .....

Nowadays Anti-Semitism’s main expression is political. It is found in actions and ideologies that call for the destruction of the State of Israel or that assert that Zionism per se is racism. Religious Anti-Semitism charges Jews with having committed a terrible original sin -- such as killing Christ or poisoning Mohammed – that justified collective punishment. Racial Anti-Semitism portrays Jews as subhuman, diseased, and parasitical. The narrative of original sin has returned to political anti-Semitism where the “sin” is the dispossession and treatment of the Palestinians. ..The Jews who join internationalist social justice/save the world movements like the Left may have a psychological need to disassociate themselves from Judaism...willing to kill millions of real people in order to institute a secular Paradise on earth...

..Thus, the Left has collaborated with Islam in scapegoating Israel for the many far more grievous crimes committed in the name of Islam....Feminists on the Left have wrongfully identified Israel as an Apartheid state--and utterly failed to mobilize consistently against gender apartheid under Islam and against the overwhelming religious apartheid that Islam is about...

how do we know when criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic?..Well, if a person cannot calmly discuss the history of the Middle East, the cause of Palestinian and Muslim suffering, the history of the Jews without immediately yelling, growling, belittling, scorning, intimidating, shaming, literally ranting and raving, if the emotional anger is way out of proportion to any intellectual discussion--we are looking at brainwashing AND Jew-hatred....

http://frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9926
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Brucey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-03 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well, getting emotional about violence is not necessarily
anti-Semitism... but it might be an indication. There are lots of people who think the Palestinians have a point or two who aren't anti-Jew.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
28. Inability to discuss the points
seems to be the actual affliction here (read the full article or section).

The concluding paragraph by Chesler:

Having said that, I must also note that the level of rage and righteous rhetoric that individuals express towards Israel and towards the Jews who support Israel is off the charts. It is highly programmed, legitimated. If the individual indeed is suffering from psychological problems, they have found the "solution" in a politics that provides peer approval, social interaction, perhaps a career path, and a sense of power and agency. I would also say that such psychological behavior is similar to cult conditioning.
http://frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9926
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TedsGarage Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-03 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
2. Anti-Zionism is not Anti-Semitism
There's a difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. I wish the state of Israel didn't exist -- the more we prop it up, the more enemies we make in the Middle East. It seems the #1 goal of our foreign policy is making the world safe for Israel.

I'd like to see all the Jews move to America. They've made great contributions to this country. They've even made great contributions to me. My grandfather married one. :)
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-03 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. We don't just give the Middle East a hard time.
We also give a hard time to parts of Asia and South America. How is this all for keeping Israel safe?
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-03 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I agree with you, Jackie...
aiding Israel is part of a greater worldview, not the source of taht worldview.
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
56. Yes it is
believeing that some groups do not deserve the rights that others have is essentially the definiton of racism.


When do you think US aid to Israel began?

Please remeber Tedgarage's post the next time one of you says there is no one here supporting the destruction of Israel.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. That's not what anti-Zionism is...
anti-Zionism is not believing that the Jews deserve a jewish state where they have special privileges. Most anti-Zionists would deny those rights to any ethnic group.
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. spin however you want
"Ireland for the Irish" agree or disagree?

Zionism is the belief that Jews have the same right to a homeland as every other group in the world. Being against that notion is bigoted.

And please don't try and tell me what I find offensive.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. I'm pro-Zionist...
i am a Zionist. However, I do think that you are unfairly smearing anti-Zionists.

Zionism is the belief that Jews have the same right to a homeland as every other group in the world. Being against that notion is bigoted.

What if you don't believe that any group in the world has a right to a homeland?
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. Read the guys post
he states openly that he wishes Israel did not exist and that the Jews there were forced to move to the US. What can you defend in that statement?
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. I think that comment was made half in jest...
though I'll wait for comment by the poster.

And he doesn't represent all anti-Zionists.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-03 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
3. So, when I debate passionately, I'm anti-semitic?
More right-wing junk.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
30. I don't think you have comprehended...
the actual message here. Chesler is saying that it is a strong indication of anti-Semitism, if the speaker is unable to discuss any issue in the I/P conflict without becoming violently angry.

While this anger may also exist on the pro-Israel side, it should be noted that the psychological problems (which Chesler does not address, but another participant in the symposium does)can also afflict the pro-Israeli debaters and those who claim anti-Semitism without sufficient cause.

This is an important conclusion as well, when looking at the position of the left. It is very much part of the left to be anti-Israel:

Rosen: The Palestinian cause has become the principle litmus test of participation in the Left. It is almost impossible to function within the broad Left without adopting a staunch pro-Palestinian view. This is why Phyllis has hit this wall of silence. It has become so fundamental it is no longer discussable. It is similar to the problem of raising the issue of the communist oppression of the peoples of Eastern Europe in the post World War II era. If you raised it you were not part of the Left and had no place in its internal debate.
http://frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9926

Those participating in the symposium are, unlike participants in the DU forum, writers and philosophers influential in molding public opinion. Their views are indications of the next stage in the political arena. There is a contributor to the Tikkun magazine in the symposium, as well as a critic of Tikkun.

Everyone who is searching for ground in issues of the I/P conflict, or questioning the political "answers" they have been given, certainly ought to read this article.

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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. This paragraph is completely wrong...
Rosen: The Palestinian cause has become the principle litmus test of participation in the Left. It is almost impossible to function within the broad Left without adopting a staunch pro-Palestinian view. This is why Phyllis has hit this wall of silence. It has become so fundamental it is no longer discussable. It is similar to the problem of raising the issue of the communist oppression of the peoples of Eastern Europe in the post World War II era. If you raised it you were not part of the Left and had no place in its internal debate.

Once, I was a staunch supporter of Israel. I saw no problem functioning within the broad left. So I've proved the paragraph you've cited wrong.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. How long ago was that, Darranar?
Edited on Sun Sep-21-03 08:21 AM by Gimel
Some people that I was once very close to became anti-circumcision experts and Tikkun supporters. They sent me Tikkun info on how to toe the liberal line.

Now all communication has been dropped.

I got a similar reaction from other message boards. Pro-Israeli is just not hip for anyone, even Jews.

You seemed to have shifted since coming to this forum.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. No, I haven't shifted much, actually...
I was a moderate when I came to this forum, and I've shifted more to the pro-Palestinian side, but not by that much, actually. But that's not the point.

But, yes, I was once a staunch supporter of Israel. A few intelligent people broke the bubble that I hid in. From then on, it was only a matter of time before I would adopt the opinions I have now.

Regardless of my views regarding Israel, I have always been left-wing on domestic affairs and foreign affairs. I have never met rejection from any liberal whatsoever because of my views regarding the I/P conflict (that's not countring the pro-Israelis who are liberals on every other issue.)

I really don't think that anyone should be rejected because of one issue anywhere. I wouldn't reject a liberal who supported the war in Iraq, unless he was blind and ignorant to the points taht i brought up.

I don't doubt that it happens sometimes, but I don't think it is a trait common to the Left.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #38
63. Intelligent people
There are highly intelligent people to argue all sides. You just found those who wanted to "free you" to join their world-view. It is not the end of your enlightenment.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. No, you don't understand...
how much in denial I was.

I was anti-Palestinian state.

I was pro-settlement.

I supported Netanyahu over Sharon.

Intelligent people pointed out to me the fallacy of this kind of extremist thinking. The rest was an intellectual developement of its own.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-03 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
4. saying "Zionism per se is racism" is anti-semitism?
Edited on Sat Sep-20-03 08:12 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
How about just being opposed to ethnic cleansing and forced relocation of indigenous populations in general? Is that an anti-semitic attitude?

No. Just because you are opposed to the immoral actions of SOME Jews doesn't mean you are prejudiced against Jews - any more than being horrified by the immoral actions of the Nazis means you are prejudiced against Germans.

PS: here's a good line from the article:
Oy veh! It really is too bad that so much discussion of this topic has to mirror, verbally, the physical violence of the real encounter.
http://frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9926


How true.
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
67. Straw man
Being against ethnic cleansing (as Im sure you are very outspoken about the jews forcecd to leave the Occupied Territories in 1948 and fully support their right of return)has nothing to do with the belief that Jews should be able to rule themselves.

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liberalmuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-03 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. I'm anti-zionist...
not anti-semitic. There is a difference. I'll never condone the atrocities the IDF and Sharon have committed against Palestinians any more than I'll condone the bombing of Israeli civilians. ALL nations have something to answer for in their treatment of various members of the human race. Putting the spotlight on atrocities committed by Muslims in order to take the heat off the atrocities committed by Israeli-Jews or vice-versa can never condone the actions of either.

In the article:
"how do we know when criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic?..Well, if a person cannot calmly discuss the history of the Middle East, the cause of Palestinian and Muslim suffering, the history of the Jews without immediately yelling, growling, belittling, scorning, intimidating, shaming, literally ranting and raving, if the emotional anger is way out of proportion to any intellectual discussion--we are looking at brainwashing AND Jew-hatred...."

This is a fallacy since the former does not conclude the latter.

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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
68. Please buy a dictionary
Zionism existed before Ariel Sharon. Being against Zionism means you do not believe that Jews have the same right of self rule you are willing to allow the Palestinians. that is bigotry and there is no way around it.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. Agreed
Zionism has a long history and has many different meanings, all of which depend on the group involved. I would agree that Moledat and Gush Emunim supporters (a very small percentage of Israelis) are probably racist and use Zionism to push a racist agenda.

However, most meanings of Zionism are NOT racist, but just advocate for a Jewish homeland. Sometimes this means a cultural homeland, other times a nationalistic homeland. But for most it does not imply or support a racist agenda against the Palestinians.

It would be like comparing the agenda of a hardcore Hamas supporter with that of the average Palestinian. The Hamas supporter is probably racist as well, but the average Palestinian is not.

L-



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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-03 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
6. Great article!
:thumbsup:
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-03 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. What?
Come on.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #7
27. His posts based on nothing but the title of an article are useful...
They're a great indicator of whether it's worth wasting our time on reading total swill that for the most part comes direct to us from the right-wing media (in jim language that translates as 'Great Article!'), or whether it's an article worth reading, mainly from the progressive press that dares to utter the slightest criticism of Israeli policy (in Jim language this translation is 'This ain't nuthin' but shit!). Then again, as he's repeatedly admitted he doesn't read the articles, there's a chance he might get off-kilter one day and give us all a bum steer ;)

Violet...
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #27
41. I had a bum steer once...almost made a vegetarian out of me.
Badda bing, badda boom.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-03 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
8. Drool. Slobber. Yelp. Snuffle. Fart.
"Why has anti-Semitism become the new mantle of leftist politics?"

Nothing like assuming the desired conclusion before starting.
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LastDemInIdaho Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-03 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Have you seen the group calling themselves ANSWER?
They give leftists and peace activists a bad name. It almost seems like they are paid by the far right to bloody the left nose.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-03 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Never heard of them.
Sound like a bunch of leftist retards to me.
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Equinox Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #10
45. LOL..
Leftist Retards!

Call me one of those.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-03 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Yah, I have...
They seem a bunch of peace protesters to me. Nothing wrong with that.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-03 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. They are peace inciters!

Dangerous bunch. Evil-doers who hate war crimes. Peace is the new terror.

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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-03 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Oh, I forgot!
Like Rachel Corrie and the vast majority of posters on this forum, they are vile terroristic anti-American anti-Israel anti-semitic anti-war suicidal jihadofascist maniacs! I mean, really! they actually CARE about the Palestinians! OMG! What a shock! How could they do such a vile, humanitarian thing?
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-03 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. obviously they are "foolish idealists"
(to borrow the phrase used to describe Rachel Corrie in the recent Mother Jones article)
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-03 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Darranar..
ANSWER is a front group for the Stalinist Worker's party. They condone everything that Stalin did, saying that it was necessary for the revolution. They're not just activists against the US and Israeli wars.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-03 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. They are?
I just went to their website. I saw lots of articles that I agreed with; very little about socialism or Stalin. Do you have information to back this up with?
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #20
46. More on ANSWER.
Some would argue that they actually aren't a front group, but most people agree that they are. Here's some more information.

http://www.warblogging.com/archives/000458.php

And straight from the horse’s mouth.

http://www.workers.org/ww/2003/answer0522.php


http://authoritarianopportunistswhocozyuptogenocidaldictators-forpeace.org/

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=2527

Just read discussion #8
How should we relate to groups doing antiwar work with whom we disagree in significant ways -- the IAC and ANSWER, NION, the war's mainstream opponents? How do we evaluate all these? Should we work with people we have serious differences with, avoid them, or what?

There is no universal rule for how to relate to those with whom we disagree. If we automatically refused to have anything to do with any person or organization with whom we had differences, then we'd be protesting the war in demonstrations of two or three individuals. Obviously, we need to take account of how much disagreement there is and whether working with particular groups allows us to express a shared agreement and further our goals, despite our disagreements, or whether, on the other hand, working with particular groups restricts or undermines our efforts in some significant ways.

One extremely energetic antiwar group is the International Action Center (IAC). It is the leading force in the coalition ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War & End Racism) which is calling the October 26 demonstrations in Washington, DC and elsewhere. (IAC and ANSWER share a New York City phone number and the latter's website features many materials from IAC.) IAC is officially led by Ramsey Clark and is largely the creation of the Workers World Party; many key IAC figures are prominent writers for WWP.

WWP holds many views that we find abhorrent. It considers North Korea "socialist Korea" where the "land, factories, homes, hotels, parks, schools, hospitals, offices, museums, buses, subways, everything in the DPRK belongs to the people as a whole" (Workers World, May 9, 2002), a fantastic distortion of the reality of one of the most rigid dictatorships in the world. IAC expresses its solidarity with Slobodan Milosevic (http://www.iacenter.org/yugo_milosdeligation.htm). There's of course much to criticize in the one-sided Hague war crimes tribunal, but to champion Milosevic is grotesque. The ANSWER website provides an IAC backgrounder on Afghanistan that refers to the dictatorial government that took power in that country in 1978 as "socialist" and says of the Soviet invasion the next year: the "USSR intervened militarily at the behest of the Afghani revolutionary government" (http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/resources/index.html) -- neglecting to mention that Moscow first had to engineer the execution of the Afghan leader to get themselves the invitation to intervene.

In none of IAC's considerable resources on the current Iraq crisis is there a single negative word about Saddam Hussein. There is no mention that he is a ruthless dictator. (This omission is not surprising, given their inability to detect any problem of dictatorship with the Soviet-backed regime in Afghanistan.) There is no mention that Hussein is responsible for the deaths of many tens of thousands of Iraqi Kurds and Shi'ites. IAC's position is that any opponent of U.S. imperialism must be championed and never criticized.

How do these views affect antiwar demonstrations organized by IAC or ANSWER? They do so in two primary ways.

First, an important purpose of antiwar demonstrations is to educate the public, so as to be able to build a larger movement. If the message of a demonstration is that opposition to U.S. war means support for brutal regimes, then we are mis-educating the public, and limiting the growth of the movement. To be sure, some true things we say may also alienate some members of the public, and often that is a risk we must take in order to communicate the truth and change awareness. But to tell the public that they have to support either George Bush or Saddam Hussein is not true and is certainly not a way to build a strong movement. People are not wrong to be morally repelled by Saddam Hussein. An antiwar movement that cannot make clear its opposition to the crimes of both Bush and Hussein will of necessity be limited in size.

The second problem with IAC-organized demonstrations is that the day-to-day practice of IAC cadre often shows a lack of commitment to democratic and open behavior. It is not surprising that those who lionize the dictatorial North Korean regime will be somewhat lacking in their appreciation of democratic practice.

Does this mean that people who reject these abhorrent views of the IAC shouldn't attend the October 26 antiwar demonstrations in Washington, DC, San Francisco, and elsewhere? No.

If there were another large demonstration organized by forces more compatible with the kinds of politics espoused by other antiwar activists, including ourselves, then we would urge people to prefer that one. And there is no doubt we should be working to build alternative organizational structures for the antiwar movement that are not dominated by IAC. But at the moment the ANSWER demonstration is the only show in town. And much as we may oppose Saddam Hussein, we also oppose Bush, and the paramount danger today is the war being prepared by the U.S. government.

So we need to consider various questions.

First, are those with antiwar views contrary to the IAC's perspective excluded from speaking? Second, what will be the primary message perceived by those present at the demonstrations and by the wider public?

If past experience is a guide, IAC demonstrations will have programs skewed in the direction of IAC politics, but without excluding alternative voices. In general, the IAC speakers will not be offensive so much for what they say, but for what they don't say. That is, they won't praise Saddam Hussein from the podium, but nor will they utter a critical word about him. However, as long as other speakers can and do express positions with a different point of view, the overall impact of the event will still be positive, particularly in the absence of other options. Most of the people at the demonstration will in fact be unaware of exactly who said what and whether any particular speaker omitted this or that point. What they will experience will be a powerful antiwar protest. And most of the public will see it that way too. (As was the case during the Vietnam War too: few demonstrators knew the specific politics or agendas of demonstration organizers.) Accordingly, and in the absence of any alternative event, it makes sense to help build and to attend the October 26 demonstration, while also registering extreme distaste for the IAC, at least in our view.

Another significant antiwar organization is Not In Our Names. NION has issued a very eloquent and forceful Pledge of Resistance opposing Bush's war on terrorism, signed by prominent individuals and thousands of others. NION organized important demonstrations around the U.S. on October 6 and on June 6.

Significant impetus behind NION comes from the Revolutionary Communist Party (RCP). RCP identifies itself as followers of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism. Their website (http://rwor.org/) expresses support for Shining Path in Peru (which they say should properly be called the Maoist Communist Party of Peru), an organization with a gruesome record of violently targeting other progressive groups. For the RCP, freedom doesn't include the right of a minority to dissent (this is a bourgeois formulation, they say, pushed by John Stuart Mill and Rosa Luxembourg); the correct view, they say, is that of Mao (the "greatest revolutionary of our time"): "If Marxist Leninists are in control, the rights of the vast majority will be guaranteed."

Despite these views, however, RCP does not push its specific positions on NION to the degree that IAC does on ANSWER. For example, while the ANSWER website offers such things as the IAC backgrounder on Afghanistan cited above, the NION website and its public positions have no connection to the sometimes bizarre views of the RCP.

The case for participating in NION events is stronger than for ANSWER events. It still makes overwhelming sense to build better antiwar coalitions, but in the meantime supporting NION activities promotes an antiwar message that we support, with relatively little compromise of our views.

Another group that may support antiwar activities but with whom we have serious disagreements are liberal politicians. Many of these politicians have totally capitulated to Bush and the right, but a few of them have been strong voices against war. Our diagnosis of and prescription for U.S. warmongering differ substantially from those of antiwar liberals. Should we participate in events where Democratic Party officeholders are leading speakers? Again, the same basic logic applies. Does the presence of the Democrat in some way prevent us from saying what we want to say? (Sure, at an event where Democrat X is speaking, we won't be welcome to give a speech denouncing X as a running-dog lackey of the ruling class. But it is unlikely that this is what we wanted to say in our ten-minute antiwar speech anyway.) And, second, what message does the public come away with? If the whole event is billed as a "Let's Wait A Week for War" demonstration, then no matter what we say our participation will be contributing to a cause we don't support, pursuing war a week from now. But as long as the demonstration has a clear antiwar position, the presence and participation of liberal Democrats should not preclude our participation. Indeed, if we were on the committee choosing speakers, we would support including many speakers who didn't agree with us on many things, but who were clearly antiwar and who could appeal to audiences that we hadn't been as successful in attracting.







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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. Very interesting...
I read a lot of it.
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-03 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. I do sometimes wonder why leftists and activists got stuck with ANSWER.
Edited on Sat Sep-20-03 11:43 PM by Jackie97
Seriously, ANSWER is a joke. How did the leftists and activists get stuck with these people forming so many big marches?
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-03 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. with regards to Gloria Steinem,
Edited on Sat Sep-20-03 11:57 PM by Resistance
ANSWER seems to piss you off, Jackie

:evilgrin:
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #19
39. Not everything that pisses me off is about the truth.
Edited on Sun Sep-21-03 10:13 AM by Jackie97
Some things that ANSWER says is the truth, and that's okay. However, this Stalinism shit pisses me off.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against their right to exist. I just wish people would take them a little less seriously as peace activists.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-03 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Didn't get stuck with anybody.
Politics makes strange bedfellows, happens all the time.
Israel and fundy-Christians is a perfect example. There are
plenty more. If I happen to find myself agreeing with David
Duke on some issue, does that mean I have to change my mind
just so I won't agree with him about anything, or am I supposed
to decide based on what I think is right, and ignore him?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #21
29. Yeah...
I expect that there's some folk that would urge you to change yr mind just so you won't agree with him about anything. Gosh, imagine their despair if they discovered I actually agree with Stalin on some issues!! ;)

Violet...
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #29
40. Agreeing with others and strange bedfellows.
It's all true, and none of it can be avoided. No matter what political idea you have, there will be some extremists who agree with you.

Actually, I've made an argument to the critics of anti-war activists getting together with ANSWER. It sort of sounds dumb, but I think it makes sense. I tend to compare teaming up with current day Stalinists against the war and globalization with the United States teaming up with Stalin himself during WWII. I'm saying that for some reasons, what we did was considered to be okay to fight against the Nazis. Therefore, it's okay now. I've been told that I should ditch that argument. Should I?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. The "Therefore, it's okay now" conclusion is a non sequitor.
Whether you ditch the argument is up to you. I prefer to
deal with current conditions based on current facts, not on
what was decided long ago in other circumstances. The notion
that political decisions are based on morality, OK-ness, is
contrary to observation; I am sure that FDR etc. cared not a
fig about whether his decision was "OK", he just wanted to
achieve certain political goals and he thought that would get
him there.
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LastDemInIdaho Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-03 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
22. More on FarLeftists, A.N.S.W.E.R. , WWP and other ilk
WWP has been around since 1959. They represent a brand of totalitarian leftism that defends the monstrous Slobodan Milosevic, has not a word to say about Saddam Hussein, supported the slaughter of Chinese students in Tiananmen Square, and sided with hard-line Stalinists in the Soviet Union. Those of us who believe in peace and the reconciliation of peoples on a democratic basis cannot allow our voices to be muzzled by such as these. Their love affair with North Korea is as repugnant as our government's long-standing alliance with the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and its prior relationship with the Taliban and with Saddam Hussein and his regime of killers and torturers.

We challenge anti-democratic ideas when they come from George Bush and John Ashcroft. We must do the same when similar ideas emerge within the peace movement.

For demagogues, democracy is not a principle, but a tool to be used as a means toward power and abandoned when power is attained. Of course this is not a position anyone would proclaim openly. However, it has been a hallmark of the totalitarian left.

There have always been currents in the left that have embraced bureaucratic planning and the monolithic state, seeing themselves or their party as the embryo of a new ruling elite—ruling benevolently, of course, for who would dare to say otherwise in a police state? From this point of view, such leftists have opposed capitalism and its atrocities, thus putting on a "progressive" face, while defending authoritarian regimes and parties that are rivals of capitalism.

Pro-Soviet ideologues, including the founders of the WWP, are a classic example of this kind of totalitarian leftism.

They criticized Western capitalism while remaining silent about similar atrocities of their own patron states. It's a well-worn method: You don't defend the indefensible, you just keep quiet about it and attack the "other side."

The totalitarians were against war, except when their patrons went to war. Civil rights did not exist in their countries. They were pro-environment here, but said nothing as the Stalinist states ravaged the environment. People are still dying from the Chernobyl disaster. They spoke abstractly of "the working class" while actual workers—denied the right to organize trade unions, to strike, to form political parties or vote in free elections—suffered the impoverishment and oppressive working conditions that go with powerlessness. In their ideology, nationalized property and the absence of capitalism were defined as progressive even though the benefits mostly went to a bureaucratic elite that ruled both the state and the economy through its one-party system and ruthless suppression of dissent.

Entire nations have suffered at the hands of authoritarian leftists. A heavy burden was placed on the human spirit. The price for pursuing a career or avoiding reprisals against families was conformity in political ideas, in the arts and literature, in every aspect of life. Silence about injustice was required, as was spying on friends and neighbors. Remember this history when you feel pressured to remain silent about misleadership in the peace movement.

http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/index.cfm/action/tikkun/mode/printer_friendly/issue/tik0305/article/030512b.html

A very good article.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. What's wrong with far leftists?
Those people aren't far leftists. They're leftists in denial about oppressive regimes around the world that exploited the Socialist movement to their political advantage.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. I don't see that much wrong with this.
Totalitarianism sucks, left or right. These WWP folks sounds like
old style Stalinist dolts.

The bit about East Germany gave me a turn, I can tell you.
Then I realized the damning piece is from 1989 or something like that.

Since they are a tiny little splinter, I don't see much need to
stress over them though, I don't think they're going to take over
like the Bosheviki any time soon.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 01:43 AM
Response to Original message
25. Excerpts
The excerpts from the roundtable dialogue were taken out of context by our own Ductape, and forged into paragraphs. The end to the second paragraph is especially incongruent with the overall message of the speaker. There are four participants, some with views which are diametrical. I encourage all American left thinkers and believers to read this discussion. As Israel and Israelis must be self-critical and view their own history as a means of enlightenment, so must the American left.

Stern: Criticism of any specific Israeli government policy is not only not anti-Semitic but it's sometimes necessary. After all, we are the democrats. We believe that open discussion is good in itself and will lead to more effective policies by our democratic friends in Israel. On the other hand attacks on Israel as a national project, depictions of Israel as created in sin, holding Israel up to a higher standard than other countries faced with the same external threat, should be considered presumptively anti-Semitic.
http://frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9926
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Why would you encourage leftists to read this pile of garbage?
These speakers are all idiots, only spouting the same "The Left is anti-semitic" nonsense in different ways from the next guy:

Stern: "racialist anti-Semitism is now beginning to corrupt the Left"

Chesler: "it is now "politically correct" on the presumably anti-racist and feminist Left to hate Jews and especially the Jewish state"

Rosen: "The narrative of original sin has returned to political anti-Semitism where the “sin” is the dispossession and treatment of the Palestinians"

Chesler: "the Left has collaborated with Islam in scapegoating Israel"

Rosen: "In the end, what remains is only the Left’s inchoate anger directed at Jews who refuse to assimilate to the Left’s agenda."

Stern: "if the Left had its way Israel would be dead and, eventually, so would the Jewish people"

Chesler: "Yes Jamie, leftist anti-Semitism is directly connected to the Left's dedication to anti-Americanism, anti-capitalism and anti-globalization."

Gottlieb: "The Left exists in an anti-Semitic culture and reproduces those tendencies."

Rosen: "Ironically, the Left has almost no sense of the Anti-Semitism embedded in its own history"


And it goes on and on and on just like this - what a bunch of arrogant morons. Yeah, actually come to think of it, I do agree that left thinkers should read the so-called 'discussion' - it will really enlighten those of you who weren't aware of how serious the Likud campaign to equate criticism of Israel with anti-semitism has become.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. Read post #30
Those participating in the symposium are, unlike participants in the DU forum, writers and philosophers influential in molding public opinion. Their views are indications of the next stage in the political arena. There is a contributor to the Tikkun magazine in the symposium, as well as a critic of Tikkun.

Everyone who is searching for ground in issues of the I/P conflict, or questioning the political "answers" they have been given, certainly ought to read this article.

__________________

No amount of selective posting will adequately substitute for reading the entire article.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. I read a lot of it...
ended up being forced to skim to avoid a :puke:.

This article is total junk.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #26
43. To reiterate: Great article!
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
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aneerkoinos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #25
33. Laughable
"holding Israel up to a higher standard than other countries faced with the same external threat".

I would be glad if the same standards that are being applied to Iraq, Iran, NK, etc. would be applied to Israel (UN resolutions, nuclear proliferation). But no.

I support trade embargo against Israel by EU alone if necessary, until Israel accepts UN resolutions, withdraws from occupied areas and most importantly let's IAEA in. Am I anti-semite?

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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. Trade embargo?
Do yuo know how many innocent Israelis that would harm, perhaps even kill? Their economy is bad enough. A trade embargo will hurt it even further, and the hunger rates, already shockingly high, will shoot up.
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Equinox Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #36
47. We could stop giving $4 Billion a year to Israel....
.besides, if there was a trade embargo against Israel, it would be no one's fault but Israel's if anyone dies. All the GOI would have to do is get out of the OTs and the embargo would be lifted.

I hate to say that, ofcourse, I'd hate for anyone one to be killed or die during this, but someone has to force Israel's hand.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. They said the same thing about Saddam...
how sanctions "would stay his hand" and used it as an excuse as millions of innocent Iraqis died.
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Equinox Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Yes, but Israel isn' t ruled by a fascist dictator...
It's ruled by a fascist PM who's still held accountable to the people. I believe the stituation is different. When people are starving they will vote anyone in who promises to get out of the OTs to end any embargo.

Saddam remained rich while his people suffered..but again he wasn't accountable to the people.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. I'm not so sure...
that the long-term gain will surpass the short-term loss, nor am I sure that the hoped-for result will occur.

Sanctions and war, to me, are almost always (note the "almost") easy ways out. They are "easy" and "simple" solutions to problems that generally end up causing more problems and sometimes even enlarging the original problem. They take the place of real negotiations and hard work.

Israel's people are already in great economic hardship. That doesn't cause them to overthrow the aggressive inhumanitarian Likudnik war criminal currently in office; in fact, he did even better in the last election than the one before it.

Worsening that economic hardship will not accomplish much, IMO, aside from strengthen the claims of the far-rightists in newspapers like Arutz Sheva that the world has abandoned them and that they need to take matters into their own hands.
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Equinox Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. You actually might have a point there, darranar.
I don't know anymore really. I'm sick of the mess the US puts everyone in and then claims that we are the worlds uniter. What a bunch of BS.
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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 05:46 AM
Response to Original message
32. I read the whole article...
and it certainly is enlightening. Many voices and collective wisdom here. Good points made by all particularly that discussions about the I/P situation are not made dispassionately.
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Equinox Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
44. Got love this:
how do we know when criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic?..

What the author really wanted to answer with is "if you say anything against Israel at all."

The author talks about indoctrination. That's exactly what he does with this piece.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. This was discussed
and in a lot more depth in the symposium itself. IYou tell us what the author wated to say. A very clever tactic.
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Equinox Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. That's exactly what he implied....
very clever of him.
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MariMayans Donating Member (250 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
54. contemporary zionism is anti-semetic
it shares in common it's predecessor ideas of the nation as composed of race instead of citizens.

Or maybe everyone should just admit that trying to tie ideas shared between two ideologies which may or may not coincide with anti-semites and calling it "anti-semitism" is piss poor reasoning.
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quilp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
58. Why should "immediately yelling...anger" be evidence of "Jew hatred"?
Aren't there any Likuniks who are "immediately yelling.....emotional anger"? Are those "settlers" all "calmly discussing the history of the Middle East"?

The anger of the "Left" at the behaviour of the Israelis is not "anti-Semtic". It is profound disillusion!
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. WHAT!
How dare you point out the ridiculous fallacy of that idiotic piece of trash! You must be anti-semitic! :eyes:
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quilp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Sorry Darraner. I thought he was serious.
Edited on Sun Sep-21-03 10:17 PM by quilp
Sometimes it is hard for me to tell. BTW. What has happened to "Magistrate"?
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. Oh, the article was dead serious...
that's what scares me.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
71. Locking
And similarly for reasons mentioned in the Rutgers thread, this one has started making stereotypical assumptions about Israelis.

Lithos
FA/NS Moderator
Democratic Underground
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