Israel's Foreign Ministry slams envoy's comments about 'yellow race'

[Orrin_73]

The Foreign Ministry on Friday condemned remarks by the Israeli ambassador to Australia in which he told Haaretz that the two countries are white sisters amid "the yellow race" of Asia.

"We are in Asia without the characteristics of Asians. We don't have yellow skin and slanted eyes. Asia is basically the yellow race. Australia and Israel are not - we are basically the white race. We are on the western side of Asia and they are on the southeastern side." ambassador Naftali Tamir

Foreign Ministry slams envoy's comments about 'yellow race'

This is not picked up my the MSM, I wonder why?

[Kutjara]

1. It's like global race relations have slipped back...

...50 years in the past five. How long will it be before it's once-again acceptable to refer to 'inscrutable Chinese', 'swarthy Arabs,' 'shifty Jews' and all the rest of the bigoted baggage we should have left behind long ago?

[Joe Bacon]

9. The Insane Clown Posse running Israel into the ground makes a slip

Yep, a little slip o the tongue and you see that the Insane Clown Posse destroying Israel is even DUMBER than the Insane Clown Posse destroying America.

[Judi Lynn]

2. Color in his skin and nice eyes would surely be an upgrade!

Here's his photo:



Yeah, he really has so much to feel proud of, doesn't he? And that's without even mentioning his elegant view of the world, and magnificent sense of dignity, and respect for his fellow man. Not.

[NorthernSpy]

11. he's just bitter because he looks like Tweety Bird

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweety_Bird

But pink, rather than Tweety's customary golden yellow hue.

[NorthernSpy]

3. Israel's Eitan on apartheid: "anyone who says the blacks are oppressed...

... is a liar":

What Naftali Tamir said is entirely consistent with what Israeli leaders have said and done for decades:

I don't understand this comparison between us and South Africa. What is similar here and there is that both they and we must prevent others from taking us over. Anyone who says that the blacks are oppressed in South Africa is a liar. The blacks there want to gain control of the white minority just like the Arabs here want to gain control over us. And we, too, like the White minority in South Africa, must act to prevent them from taking us over. I was in a gold mine there and I saw what excellent conditions the black workers have. So there is separate elevators for Whites and Blacks, so what? That's the way they like it.

-- Raphael Eitan, IDF Chief of Staff
(1987)

And it wasn't just Eitan. Israel LOVED the apartheid regime. They identified with it, they befriended it, and they armed it (even going so far as to aid Pretoria's effort to build nuclear bombs). From The Guardian:

...Israel's prime minister, Yitzhak Rabin, hailed the South African premier as a force for freedom and made no mention of Vorster's past as he toured the Jerusalem memorial to the six million Jews murdered by the Nazis. At a state banquet, Rabin toasted "the ideals shared by Israel and South Africa: the hopes for justice and peaceful coexistence". Both countries, he said, faced "foreign-inspired instability and recklessness".

Vorster, whose army was then overrunning Angola, told his hosts that South Africa and Israel were victims of the enemies of western civilisation. A few months later, the South African government's yearbook characterised the two countries as confronting a single problem: "Israel and South Africa have one thing above all else in common: they are both situated in a predominantly hostile world inhabited by dark peoples.

(...)

The biggest secret of all was the nuclear one. Israel provided expertise and technology that was central to South Africa's development of its nuclear bombs. Israel was embarrassed enough about its close association with a political movement rooted in racial ideology to keep the military collaboration hidden.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1704037,00.html


So there's no irony in Tamir's remarks. Not so for this little gem from Shimon Peres:

Shimon Peres was defence minister at the time of Vorster's visit to Jerusalem and twice served as prime minister during the 1980s when Israel drew closest to the apartheid government. He shies away from questions about the morality of ties to the white regime. "I never think back. Since I cannot change the past, why should I deal with it?" he says.

This from the state that never tires of using the nazi holocaust as an all-purpose justification for its actions, or of citing this historical event as the reason why the rest of humanity supposedly has no right to reproach Israel for anything it does.



:eyes:


(edit: typo)

[wholetruth00]

5. Other leaders (like in Iran) would be slammed by the world media

for comments like these. The hypocrisy and double standards of western allies is what is breeding the furor and violence among other nations.

[Judi Lynn]

6. Unbelievable! Thank you so much for posting these references.

The whole subject is totally new to a few of us. It's almost too damned ugly to accept. This information really needs to get scrutinized as much as possible.

How could ANYONE be that ####ed up? Good grief.

I'm grateful to be able to sock away the links you posted, as the first I've collected on this subject.
Thank you.

[iamjoy]

8. The Difference Is...

The Whites in South Africa could go somewhere else and know they are safe - free from hatred to their group or oppression.

Jews face discrimination almost everywhere. Sometimes it is very subtle, but it is there. So, having a place of our own is important. Also, culture - the one familiar to them would be "dominant" Don't read anything too much into that statement, I only mean it would be nice for some Jews if Yom Kippur were a national holiday - they really don't care if Christmas is.

And how come no one ever talks about the discrimination carried out by otyer nations in the M.E. Anyone know Saudi Arabia's policy towards Jews? How are they treated in Syria? For that matter, couldn't S.A.'s treatment of women be a form of apartheid by gender? But, of course, that is for religious reasons so we must be tolerant. :eyes:

added on edit
still, a stupid thing for him to do - comparing himself with South Africa and defending their aparthied rather than pointing out the differences.

[breakaleg]

17. You are defending this crap?

[IntiRaymi]

122. Yes he is.

Can't you see? The mission is to defend, damn logic, reality, and history.

[Englander]

125. Just another day in i/p.

Language, history, logic are only there to be abused, misused & turned upside down.

[LivingInTheBubble]

28. They are indeed the same, living on others land and oppressing them

while crying about how the savages attack them any chance they get.

Being oppressed themselves gives no Jew the right to go an oppress someone else.

Of course the financial incentives Israel offers for Jews to emigrate there helps them too.

[iamjoy]

32. It's A Matter of Survival

Israel's Arab neighbors have sworn to push her into the sea, to wipe her out. They don't think Israel has a right to exist, they never did. Most Arabs never accepted the Balfour declaration.
The Balfour declaration was more political than altruistic, but it gave Jews what they needed. Hope, a chance.

The Jews, or Israelis did not come to that land to enslave the local population and exploit its natural resources - otherwise they'd be moving into the areas with oil. They came for religious reasons and because they felt it was the only place they would truly be safe. Well, that's nto really working out, is it. World War II demonstrates just how much we Jews can trust the rest of the world to protect us.

The situation w/South Africa is totally different. And I added on edit that it was wrong to try to defend South Africa and say its situation was like Israel's.

[tocqueville]

44. more than half of the Jewish population in the world today

don't live in Israel and they "survive" very well (and the overwhelming majority of them don't want to move there either). Your "argument" is pure rethorics.

Israel was founded on national-messianic premises and survived as such because it fitted the West's (and Russia's)geopolitical ambitions.

the Palestinians right to exist is as much "worthy" as Israel's. Israel has a right to exist as settlers. The "historic" right is no more valid than the Serbs claim over Kosovo.

[iamjoy]

73. Israel's Survival, I Meant

Although, there is something emotional in some Jews, even those who would never want to live in Israel.

And while the Palestinians right to exist is as worthy as Israel's, their existence is not threatened by Israel in the same way. As for the Palestinian homeland - well, I thought that's what Jordan was supposed to be, but again, I'm going back to the Post World War I era.

[Behind the Aegis]

111. incorrect.

"more than half of the Jewish population in the world today don't live in Israel..."

As of May 2006, Israel contains over half of all Jewish people of the world.

[Englander]

126. Really?

I think you're confusing the total population of Israel, with the Jewish population of Israel.

Total population = 7 mill, Jewish population = 5.5 mill.

The worldwide Jewish population is 14 mill, isn't it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Demographics

http://www1.cbs.gov.il/shnaton56/st02_01.pdf

[Behind the Aegis]

131. You are correct.

I meant that Israel now has more Jews than the US. However, a slim majority of Jews live outside of Israel. Current predictions say that by 2012 (I think it is that year), that Israel will have more than half of the world's Jewish population.

[breakaleg]

18. Amazing stuff - thanks for posting. And like another person said,

if representatives from most other countries said these kind of things they would be slammed by the world. Only Israel can get away with such nonsense.

[Tom Joad]

29. Israel developed nukes with Apartheid South Africa!

For those who take offense at comparing Israel with what was once its closest ally (US did not help Israel develop nukes, only White ruled South Africa was that close) you just have to explain why saying apartheid is really such a negative term if it were championed by the Israeli elite.

Under the ANC, South Africa's nuclear weapons program was dismantled.

In September, 1979 a flash over the Indian Ocean detected by a U.S. satellite was suspected of being a South African nuclear test, in collaboration with Israel (this event is known as Vela Incident). No official confirmation of it being a nuclear test has been made, and multiple expert agencies have disagreed on their assessments. In 1997, Deputy Foreign Minister Aziz Pahad stated that South Africa had conducted a test, but later retracted the statement as being a report of rumors. Pahad apparently had no inside information about the program.<1> A number of other sources have quoted anonymous Israeli officials verifying that some sort of test took place, but none of this has been officially confirmed by the Israeli, South African, or United States governments. However, in February 1994 Commodore Dieter Gerhardt, the convicted Soviet spy and former commander of South Africa's Simonstown naval base was reported to have said:

"Although I was not directly involved in planning or carrying out the operation, I learned unofficially that the flash was produced by an Israeli-South African test code-named Operation Phenix. The explosion was clean and was not supposed to be detected. But they were not as smart as they thought, and the weather changed – so the Americans were able to pick it up."<2>

Domestically, the ADL, a key backer of Israeli policies, worked to spy on those who participated in the anti-Apartheid movement.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NorthernSpy]

7. I've read it's considered anti-Semitic to say that Jews aren't white...

An example of this from a review of a film about the racist British National Party:

Modell has little in common with his subject and finds himself taking an exception to some of Collett's interests and occupations - which range through rabid anti-Semitism ('Jews aren't white') to explaining how he likes to "break" people, in particular his ex girlfriend.

http://chomskytorrents.org/TorrentDetails.php?TorrentID=1183

Me, I don't really know why "Jew's aren't white" would be anti-Semitism per se, apart from the fact that anti-Semites do commonly express this view.

My take is that white (as opposed to the not-really-synonymous terms 'European' and 'Euro-') has always been an exclusivist concept. Just ask someone like Wentworth Miller or Jennifer Beals: the pearly gates of Official Whiteness have long been closed to any person who has any discoverable amount of black ancestry -- no matter what he or she may look like.

So what we have are people intent on upholding the (supposedly) pristine exclusivity of whiteness ("no Jews!") facing off against people intent upon defending their own group's claim of rights to this restricted designation ("us too!"). Funny how decades after ones membership in "the superior race" had officially ceased to matter... it still matters.


:eyes:

[still_one]

14. Really!!!, The so-called "Jews" as you refer to them,

were a big part of the civil rights movement in this country. Many were also part of the ANTI-Apartid movement in South Africia

Your IGNORANT statement that it is a "well hidden racist attitude among many Jews", only show the shallowness of your thought process

Please tell me the well hidden attidue of NON-JEWS?

[IntiRaymi]

24. Why are you diverting attention to the issue?

Criticism of Israel is not criticism of Jews.
You are linking the two inextricably with your insinuations, and you are also implying that the jewish people are an ideological monoblock - which they cannot possibly be.
Israel is governed by a racist clique, and this little gem shines light on it.

[still_one]

35. EXCUSE ME, I didn't change the subject, LOOK AT WHAT I am responding to

"...No matter, the remarks are disgusting and reveal a well hidden racist attitude among many Jews...."


Perhaps you should look at the CONTEXT OF WHAT I RESPONDED TO, before accusing me of changing the subject, or maybe you believe that crap about some "well hidden racist attitude among many Jews"

but of course when you make the statement:

"Israel is governed by a racist clique, and this little gem shines light on it." that says everything about your beliefs

and your bias and ignornance. It means nothing to you that Israel condemned it

Incidently, over 95% of Jews in the world believe that Israel has a right to exist, and that is a monoblock

[IntiRaymi]

121. You are being a tad 'out there'

An ambassador is a diplomat, and represents his country to the host nation. This is a fact, and it is a mechanism by which things operate. Israel's government sent this racist out to represent it to Australia, so the entire process has somehow implicated itself in this affair. This is the obvious implication, and it is not a logic I have willingly pushed in some unnatural direction.

[geek tragedy]

50. The person made an anti-semitic comment--using the statement

of the ambassador to smear Jews as racist.

[cali]

31. The Ambassador's comments are disgusting

as is yours. Just revolting. The two of you are quite the pair. Your extrapolation that one Israeli's comments reflect wide spread racism amoung all Jews is every bit as reprehensible as his.

[still_one]

36. Your comments are right on

[geek tragedy]

49. The only thing that is revealed is your ignorance

and prejudice.

[pinerow]

10. But...but...that can't be...not from the bastion of democracy

that is Israel...Sheesh!!!

[Ian David]

13. Bush stands behing Hastert & the pedophiles. Israel condemns the racism...

of one of their diplomats.

Has Bush condemned Macacca Allen?

It looks like Israel acted more honorably than our own country.

But, to some people, Israel needs to be held to an impossibly high standard, so they can flog their own personal agendas.

[breakaleg]

19. It's not enough for Israel to condemn the words this guy says, they

should fire him. As it stands he currently represents Israel abroad, so he's speaking for Israel when he spews this crap.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[still_one]

40. bullshit

the mirror reflects many things

[Tom Joad]

41. Did they ask this man his views before he was sent to do such

important work?
Maybe they don't do that in Israel, if that's the case, please fill us in.

[geek tragedy]

51. You and the ambassador are the same.

You're smearing an entire nation as a bunch of racists. See, that would be like someone smearing all American Muslims as violent theocrats because one American Muslim said something supporting the Taliban.

But, most people here know better. Alas, not all.

[still_one]

16. First of all Israel condemned it

They did NOT condone it

I find it quite amazing that when the starvation was going on in Ethiopia one of the few countries that evacuated people out was Israel. I see very little critisim or actions on what is going on in the Sudan right now, where up to 800 thousand people have lost their lives

Yet comments condemned by Israel get the latest breaking news, but silence on Dafur...

[IntiRaymi]

22. Yes, compare that to that disgusting wall in the West Bank, will you?

[still_one]

39. One question, do you believe Israel has a right to exist

along side a Palestinian state, or do you believe that Israel does not have a right to exist?

[IntiRaymi]

123. The litmus test has arrived!

The IAF, the IDF and the community of nations decide that question. Nationhood is established via force, and the necessary commitment of citizens and patriots to the armed struggle that it will require.
...
Ask me this, instead:
"Do you believe in Israel's right to oppress, expropriate, starve and isolate the Palestinian people?"
My answer to this question is NO.

[Behind the Aegis]

124. Answer the VERY simple questions...

"One question, do you believe Israel has a right to exist along side a Palestinian state, or do you believe that Israel does not have a right to exist?"

[IntiRaymi]

127. That is not the topic I am interested in.

Answer this, instead:
"Do you believe in Israel's right to oppress, expropriate, starve and isolate the Palestinian people?"
And, Israel's statehood is well secured.

[Behind the Aegis]

129. Can't answer it can you?

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

133. The only one playing a game here is you.

And your question is not valid nor could it be used as a measure of anyone's mental state. You couldn't answer two simple questions. You didn't have to respond, but you chose to respond without an answer and created your own question, which you answered. But, as for your pointless propaganda-oriented question, "no." Now, will you answer the two questions posed to you?

[IntiRaymi]

134. No, it is a game you insist on playing. I have no obligation to do so.

Why are you having such a hard time addressing the issue of bigotry?

[Behind the Aegis]

135. I answered. You did not.

Seems you are having a difficult time addressing the issue of bigotry.

[IntiRaymi]

136. You answered nothing.

And, apparently, this is becoming an echo chamber.

[Behind the Aegis]

137. .

"But, as for your pointless propaganda-oriented question, "no.""

[IntiRaymi]

139. .

"Israel's statehood is well secured."

[Englander]

142. That isn't a question.

That's a rhetorical device used to make (very thinly veiled) accusations of anti-Semitism &/or
anti-Zionism. That isn't a serious question, & it doesn't really have anything to do with what was
previously said. If anybody was to answer 'yes' to that, they're not really worth wasting time on,
& that it is why it's very clear that what you're 'asking' isn't a serious question, & is indicitive of
an attitude that isn't terribly interested in having a serious discussion.

[Ian David]

12. It wasn't picked-up because Israel was quick to condemn the racism

Anti-semites will only seize upon this if it can portray Israel in a negative light.

But you picked up on it. I wonder why?

[still_one]

15. What is even more revealing is that they would consider this

"latest breaking news"

[breakaleg]

21. If this was said by an American politician the US wouldn't just condemn

it, they would fire the guy immediately. And it would certainly be considered news.

[NorthernSpy]

26. given that Israel uses OUR TAX DOLLARS to do the things it does...

... the extra scrutiny is absolutely warranted. Their actions have a way of coming back to haunt us.

Special $upport, special scrutiny: it's a package deal. They can take it or leave it.

[IntiRaymi]

23. Criticism of Israel is not Antisemitism

And portraying Israel in a negative light is what happens naturally when Israel acts like the rogue nation it is.

[Orrin_73]

25. Lol, Im not the MSM and certainly not anti-semitic

Criticism of Israel is not anti-semitic.

[cali]

106. Of course it's not.

And believing that Israel shouldn't exist isn't anti-semitic either, but only a fool would fail to see that anti-Israel positions are sometimes used by savvy anti-semites. All one has to do to see the truth of this is to peruse a few websites.

[stranger81]

27. I'd say exactly the opposite

the US media's been silent on this one because it's not a glowing puff-piece for Israel.

Noticing the bad along with the good certainly doesn't make one anti-semitic. That old canard gets used and abused far too much these days (including on this board).

[Tom Joad]

30. Then why is this fool a career diplomat?

[still_one]

37. A lot of countries have "career diplomats" in positions

they should NOT be in. Israel condemned the remarks, as it should.

Are you just as passionate when views which call for the destruction of Israel are made?

[geek tragedy]

55. Israel recalls ambassador to Australia

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1159193438167&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Israel's ambassador to Australia, Naftali Tamir, is on his way home to clarify comments in a newspaper interview in which he was quoted as saying that Israel and Australia are "like sisters in Asia," because "we don't have yellow skin and slanted eyes."

Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Ilana Ravid said that Tamir, who was on his way back to Canberra after a short vacation in Israel, was called back to Jerusalem for a "further clarification" to determine whether Tamir made the comments attributed to him.

Ravid said the fact that the ministry called Tamir back as he was en route to Australia indicated how seriously it took the matter.

She said Tamir told the ministry his comments were not accurately reported.

The ministry issued a statement on Friday saying that it was conducting an internal clarification to determine whether the quotes were accurate.

If the report was accurate, the statement said, then the remarks were "grave and unacceptable," and the ministry would not be able to carry on with "business as usual."

[Nolo_Contendre]

33. The ambASSador has a good point

Israel and Australia are two European colonial entities that have usurped the land of the native inhabitants. The differences are that Australia was colonized by European Christians in the 18th and 19th centuries on territory that was sparsely inhabitated by indigenous people at such a basic technological level that they could not resist. Palestine, colonized by European Jews in late 19th and early 20th century, was only established as Israel in 1948, during a period when most European colonies were being returned to their native inhabitants. The indigenous Arab people were more densely settled and technologically advanced in Palestine than the Aborigines were in Australia. they also had support from other Arab countries (although most were still colonized in 1948) and from much of the rest of the Muslim world.

The ambassador's statement used repugnant racist stereotypes but he was alluding to historical facts that reflect some of the reasons why Israel is viewed by much of the world (outside Israel and the USA) not as the re-establishment of an indigenous Jewish nation (as most Zionists perceive it) but rather as a foreign, racially European, and anachronistic colonial project that is unwelcome by other nations in the region.

[still_one]

38. Israel was created as a result of the Hollocaust

the ambassador's statements are bullshit, and racist, which is why Israel condemned it

Your views are quite obvious, you want nothing more than the destruction of Isarel.

[Nolo_Contendre]

42. How does the Holocaust justify the disenfranchisement of Palestinians?

I noted that the ambassador's statements are based on some historical facts about the colonial roots of the Jewish state. Israel is not sacred. It is a European colonial project just as the Israeli amvbassador to Australia indicated. You want nothing more than the continuation of the Jewish colonial project.

[Behind the Aegis]

43. What do you suggest?

Depopulate both Australia and Israel?

[Nolo_Contendre]

47. Personally, I would like to see equal rights for all current inhabitants

without discrimination against people based on religion or ethnicity, categories such as Arab, Israeli, Muslim, Christian or Jew.
Let all the local people vote in free and fair elections for their own representatives in a democratic system that does not grant special "Rights of Return" to Jews or the creation of a Jewish, Christian or Muslim state.

What do you suggest?

[Behind the Aegis]

48. I suggest that we accept Israel as is.

And, have a Palestinian state created next to it, with their own government.

[Nolo_Contendre]

52. I respect your opinion but I don't think it is feasible

The Jewish state is inherently discriminatory against local non-Jewish people who should have at least equal rights to European and American Jews who immigrate freely to the land. If the Palestinians elect a Muslim (Hamas) state - as they have - that mirrors the existing Jewish (Zionist) state in its religious discrimination against non-members, then the situation will naturally devolve into conflict.

It appears to me that the only adequate solution is a non-religious state, like the United States, where people of all religions have equal rights. No religion should dominate the other. religions should not be the criteria for citizenship or rights to equal education, access to water, land, military service, etc.

The only viable sollution is a truly democratic one state solution. The two-state solution has already proven itself a failure. It's similar to the "separate but equal" solution that some groups espoused in the US prior to the civil rights movement.

[Behind the Aegis]

53. There will be no "one state."

The only way that will happen will be the death of the 6 million Jews that now live in Israel. Israel will not go 'quietly into the night." The very idea that there could a single state that would be completely secular will not sit any better with the Palestinians. Therefore a single state will involve the destruction of Israel and what has happened in the past would happen again! Only this time, I don't think they will leave a single Jew alive and and no other country will take them.

[Nolo_Contendre]

56. You asked me my opinion, I gave it

I think your perception of of the situation is clouded.
South Africa evolved into a non-racist state and it didn't entail the wholesale death of millions of white Afrikaaners, despite decades of atrocities against the indigenous black population.

[geek tragedy]

59. The white South Africans had nowhere to withdraw to-the Israelis

just have to pull back to the pre-1967 borders. The Palestinians can then do whatever they want in the WB and Gaza.

[still_one]

60. and your perception ISN'T CLOUDED

With your point of view, we should be giving the U.S. back to the Native Americans", and that won't happen either

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[still_one]

63. Perhaps, but the views of both the Democratic and Republican party

is for a two state solution, and in reality that is the only one that the moderates on both sides, Israelli and Palestinain will except

Incidently, the vast majority of the world is clouded by ethnic identification, and that will not change. It is a product of the human condition

[Nolo_Contendre]

64. Both parties have been wrong on many issues, including apartheid

There is a strong pro-Israel streak in US politics so it is no surprise that the US parties toe a line that will not put pressure on Israel.

And claiming that humans will never be able to rise above base "human nature" is an age old excuse for bigotry, greed, violence, war, sexism, and other forms of exploitation. Sometimes people take solace in claiming that "human nature" is the reason for their privilege or the perpetuation of the status quo.

[still_one]

67. It is human nature, and so is survival on all sides

[Nolo_Contendre]

70. Social inequality will not result in mutual survival

The so called "two-state solution" is a ruse, like "separate but equal". It is doomed to fail.
Falling back on the inevitability of "human nature" as an excuse for the status quo is also a dead end fallacy. Republicans use that excuse to justify their wars, pedophiles use it to justify molesting youth, and businessmen use it to justify embezzlement. It's lame.

[geek tragedy]

54. Well, too bad the Israelis don't want their country destroyed.

Jews have the right to self-determination too, you know. If they don't want to be part of a Palestinian state, that's their right. They should get the hell out of the occupied territories, obviously. But, you can't claim to be in favor of self-determination and human rights and then want those rights taken away from Israeli Jews.

[Nolo_Contendre]

57. That's why there is a conflict

Neither side is willing to accept equality. The Israelis think the land is theirs and so do the Palestinians. Each wants to erase the rights/existence of the other as if it is their right to do so. That's the unrealistic option. The realistic option is equal rights without regard to religion or ethnicity. In the United States, Jews and Christians and Muslims live and work together in peace because none of them have supremacy over the other. That is the vision to which the Israelis and Palestinians should be aspriring. Instead, they both think they can have theor own state that excludes the other. That model of social inequality is inherently unstable and violent.

[geek tragedy]

58. Pre-1967 borders. Israelis have no claim on the Arab side,

and the Palestinians have no claim on the Israeli side.

Given the rampant anti-semitism in the Muslim and Arab worlds, there is simply no way that the Israelis would permit themselves to be ruled by Arabs. Not in this world, not in this lifetime.

[Nolo_Contendre]

62. Zionist colonialism is probable root of much "rampant anti-semitism"

We heard similar cries resisting equality from US southern elites, slaveholders, and South African apartheidists. No one wants to give up privileges easily. Justice sometimes demands change despite the whining of the privileged.

[still_one]

65. Oh please, lets undo the unjustices that have occurred throughout

history. It isn't going to happen

Before Zionism even existed there was "rampant anti-semitism"

In fact it was going on for thousands of years

The clock is not going to be turned back. Either there will be a two state solution, or no solution

[Nolo_Contendre]

66. Glad to see you have come to accept the inevitable

No justice. No solution. Let the conflict continue. Anti-Semitism would exist anyway so why bother striving for equality. Might makes right. Kill the barbarians, they look much like us.

[still_one]

68. no, there will be a two state solution, that I do believe

your concept of utopia has been tried many times and failed.

[Nolo_Contendre]

69. When has democratic equality been tried as a solution to the I/P conflict?

Never.

[IntiRaymi]

138. Can't you see what is being said above?

Assumption of supremacy begets violence!
Consider the USA's strategy to be a model for (sort of) viability. No blacks are being herded into Bantustans, nor are hispanics being relegated to some dry strip of land in Oklahoma, so that whites can live off the fat of the land.
Nice suburban enclaves in the middle of Israel, eh?
But, it must be recognized that Native Americans have been treated horrendously here. Guess by who?

[cali]

74. Nonsense and offensive.

Just love that blame the victim shit. And putting anti-semitism in quotes is quite the crowning touch. Anti-semitism existed for ages before Israel, and that some people look to Israeli injustices against the Palestinians to excuse anti-semitic behavior, is simply reprehensible. Period.

[Nolo_Contendre]

76. What's offensive is the misuse of the Holocaust and anti-Semitism

accusations to justify the disenfranchisement and persecution of the Palestinian people, not to mention all of Israel's other victims in Lebanon and elsewhere. Blaming the the victim is what Israel does when they deny Palestinians their rights to self-determination and then blame resistance against Israeli occupation on "anti-Semitism".

[cali]

78. Yes, of course that's offensive.

That doesn't mean that what you wrote isn't equally offensive. Congrats on being precisely what you criticize.

[Nolo_Contendre]

103. I don't see anything offensive in what I wrote

You might want to clarify.

[cali]

104. I made perfectly clear what I meant in

post #74. In fact, I don't see how I could be much clearer.

[Nolo_Contendre]

107. Offensive nonsense is in the eye of the beholder

Let's rehash the discussion.
Geek-tragedy made a comment about "rampant anti-Semitism" in the Arab world. I pointed out that the actions of the Jewish state are a probable cause of much of this "rampant anti-Semitism". You took offense at the "nonsense" of pointing out that the Jewish state's actions are responsible for hostility against Israel and Jews, in general. You did not like me using quotes to refer to Geek-tragedy's term "rampant anti-Semitism" because you think we should all recognize that many people in the world have always hated Jews for irrational reasons that have nothing to do with legitimate opposition to Israel.
Did I capture your opinion accurately for you?

I think it is offensive nonsense when people dismiss the fact that Israel's actions are a reason for anti-Jewish sentiment. I find it especially offensive when people excuse Israel's crimes against humanity and wish to delegitimize valid criticism of Israel by making blanket accusations of anti-Semitism. Clear now?

[cali]

115. er, no. You didn't get it right, but let me ask you a question.

Do you find it offensive nonsense when people dismiss the fact that Islamic extremist action in places like New York, Bali, London and Istanbul are a reason for anti-Muslim bigotry? Is it OK because some Muslims have conducted terroristic acts to act out anti-Muslim bias? Does it make it more understandable?

[breakaleg]

118. butting in here...

It is not OK. But it does provide a context for us to understand where it came from. Understanding the root of feelings, opinions and actions, even extreme ones, provides us with a better way to tackle them. So in that sense it does make it understandable. Understandable is not the same as excusable.

And that also applies to anti-Israel sentiment.

[Nolo_Contendre]

120. I agree with Breakaleg here

Understanding the root causes of anti-Semitism or Islamophobia is not the same as condoning it. There are reasons why people hold bigoted opinions. Some of those reasons are irrational hatred of the Other but some of the reasons may be rational and legitimate, based on historical actions carried out in the name of religion or a religious group.

[tocqueville]

45. some facts here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan

specially interesting is the settlements map 1947

[Behind the Aegis]

46. and?

Israel has been established. This is all "after the fact." The real question is what to do now, not what should have been done then!

[tocqueville]

71. the past holds the solutions for the future

Israel can only exist within legality. There still is a window of opportunity for an Israel that goes back to the state it was intended to. If Israel doesn't take that chance, it will be wiped out.

[Behind the Aegis]

72. ...much to the glee of many.

Face it....nothing will ever be "good enough!" Well, actually, there is something that would be.

[w4rma]

34. Racist neocons. (nt)

[eyl]

75. This thread (and its dupe) make fascinating reading

An Israeli ambassador makes a racist remark. The Foreign Ministry condemns him within a day or two (I can't seem to find out exactly when he said it, beyond the last week) and within a day after that it announces that he's being recalled and will face severe repurcussions if it turns out to be true. However, this apparently is not fast enough (even discounting the time lag for the media to get the information out, not to mention that it's a weekend) for some posters, who take this delay as "proof" of the racism of the entire Israeli government, and apparently think the proper course of action would have been to behead him on the spot. It's an intruiging contrast to when racist remarks are made against Israel (it's existence, not its policies) or Jews by Muslim officials, (such as a certain Iranian head of state) at which point everyone from Juan Cole on down fall over themselves trying to explain how they didn't really mean it, or that we should read the remarks in their culteral/political context, or other such rot.

[Nolo_Contendre]

77. How much US aid does Iran receive?

Zero.
Israel? About $100 billion over past couple of decades.

If Israel wasn't so heavily financed by US taxpayers, the actions and statements emanating from the Jewish state would be of less concern to most Americans.

[eyl]

113. Ah, I see

so your concern about other places is directly proportional to your countries financial involvement there? How progressive of you.

Besides, there's a difference between indifference and the bending over backwards to excuse racist remarks.

[Nolo_Contendre]

119. Americans have an obligation to be concerned how their money is spent

What leaders of other countries say is also important but we are not responsible for it in the same way that we are responsible for the bullets and bombs Made in USA that Israel uses on civilians.

[eyl]

141. Again

there's a difference between ignoring something and trying to make excuses for it.

[pelsar]

105. i noticed that too...

i too found the reading quite interesting ...especially if one compares it to the remarks by the iranian head of state.....(one poster hear even wrote that it was a "look over there moment"...when one of their hercules planes crashed.)...excuses for him, no matter how many times he repeated it, just kept on coming...quite the contrast.

An Israeli ambassadors racist ignorent remark....and not only is the who country found guilty, but the "progressives" who in general seem to hate such generalizations seem to "forget" their progressiveness when it comes to israel.

[oblivious]

116. Ahmadinejad:"Jews are respected by all...and I respect them very much."

Quote from you: "when racist remarks are made against Jews by..Iranian head of state"

Iranian President, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:
"We love everyone around the world. Jews, Christians, Muslims, non-Muslims, non-Jews, non-Christians -- we have no problem with people," he (Ahmadinejad) told a news conference on the sidelines of a U.N. General Assembly meeting.

..."I am not anti-Jew. Jews are respected by all human beings and I respect them very much," he said.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/21/AR2006092101356.html

[eyl]

140. Was that before, during, or after

his Holocaust denial?

http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/line-22/0605296013164659.htm">e.g.

"...just the loss of lives of the six million people whose genocide has not yet been verified is of importance."

(and before anyone starts talking about mistranslation, note that this is from Iran's official news service)

[bemildred]

79. Foreign Ministry slams envoy's comments about 'yellow race'

The Foreign Ministry on Friday condemned remarks by the Israeli ambassador to Australia in which he told Haaretz that the two countries are white sisters amid "the yellow race" of Asia.

"If the article is accurate, this is a grave and unacceptable remark," the Foreign Ministry said in a statement. The ministry said it will not return to business as usual if an internal examination confirms that the ambassador, Naftali Tamir, in fact made the comments attributed to him.

Tamir said that due to what he characterized as the racial similarities between Israel and Australia, the two countries should work together to enhance ties with other Asian countries.

"Israel and Australia are like sisters in Asia," Tamir said in an interview with Haaretz during a visit to Israel this week. "We are in Asia without the characteristics of Asians. We don't have yellow skin and slanted eyes. Asia is basically the yellow race. Australia and Israel are not - we are basically the white race. We are on the western side of Asia and they are on the southeastern side."

Haaretz

[xchrom]

80. ...

:popcorn:

[bemildred]

82. Indeed.

With butter and salt.
:popcorn::popcorn:

[xchrom]

83. i like lots of butter.

i'm gonna make more... i think we'll need it.

[Selatius]

81. If that's true, Tamir can go fuck himself.

I and my whole family are Viêtnamese. We may belong to an ethnic group, but the assertion that we are a "race" is backward and offensive and forgetful of the tragedies that came about as a result of people trying to divide the world on this fictional "race" thing.

[Tom Joad]

84. A career "diplomat". Fits the Olmert/Sharon ideology, though.

[Tom Joad]

85. Foreign Ministry slams envoy's comments about 'yellow race'

The Foreign Ministry on Friday condemned remarks by the Israeli ambassador to Australia in which he told Haaretz that the two countries are white sisters amid "the yellow race" of Asia.

"If the article is accurate, this is a grave and unacceptable remark," the Foreign Ministry said in a statement. The ministry said it will not return to business as usual if an internal examination confirms that the ambassador, Naftali Tamir, in fact made the comments attributed to him.

Tamir said that due to what he characterized as the racial similarities between Israel and Australia, the two countries should work together to enhance ties with other Asian countries.


"Israel and Australia are like sisters in Asia," Tamir said in an interview with Haaretz during a visit to Israel this week. "We are in Asia without the characteristics of Asians. We don't have yellow skin and slanted eyes. Asia is basically the yellow race. Australia and Israel are not - we are basically the white race. We are on the western side of Asia and they are on the southeastern side."
More....
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/774471.html
__________________________________________

I think i detect the stench of racism here.

I know. This is no worse than what many Republicans in the U.S. are saying. But let's just make this clear. Anyone who says shit like this is a racist. It really follows the ideology and more importantly the practice of the Olmert regime, but not something he was supposed to say out loud. The speaker, Naftali Tamir, is a career diplomat with Israel. Not surprising. Not surprising one bit.

[Behind the Aegis]

86. .

dupe

[pooja]

87. macaca...

[Howardx]

88. better be careful

you could be branded an anti semite for calling that guy a racist!

[Behind the Aegis]

89. what a stupid, pointless, and inaccurate remark. n/t

[Tom Joad]

92. It's not at all inaccurate.

[geek tragedy]

97. People would be accused of anti-semitism for agreeing

with the Israeli foreign ministry?

Now, if you were to say that it's fair to attribute his attitudes to all Israelis . . .

[Tom Joad]

99. Is he fired yet? What he said was consistant with Israel's long standing

policies. Yes, his words were too blunt, and he may, just may, lose his job. It seems odd though that he rose through the ranks to the position he is in, and no one saw this? No one knew his political/social views? After what, decades of public (dis)service?

The Israeli foreign ministry has not called this man a racist. They said his words were wrong.

[geek tragedy]

100. Well, they still have to verify that he said those things.

It's been about 24 hours since the story broke, and he's on the other side of the planet.

Lots of racists out there--in every society, every religion, every town, every government. Not all of them wear a white sheet on their head.

[Tom Joad]

101. I understand. I also know that the Israeli govt is focused on

dispossessing Palestinians of most of their land and this cannot take precedence. All quite understandable.

[Englander]

93. 'Irony? What's that?' n/t

[Tom Joad]

90. Howardx, there is a whole website dedicated to that already.

[Lurking Dem]

91. The guy's a racist.

Waiting.....
















Waiting........





















Still waiting..................

[IntiRaymi]

112. Chances are he was reprimanded for not lying.

Or, for stating true intentions within earshot of a journalist. Ambassadors are not stupid people, but they are sometimes careless, and these remarks are VERY, VERY telling.

[Tom Joad]

94. So what's happening with this Naftali Tamir? Has he been fired yet?

[breakaleg]

95. I was just about to post that exact question. If this happened in any

other country, he would have been fired immediately, or at the very least there would be a huge uproar. In Israel, this is just a blip. Even though in another post, someone pointed out this same guy had similar nasty things to say about other races years ago.

[Tom Joad]

96. what do you expect o f a nation that allied with apartheid south africa to

produce nuclear weapons.

This racist fool represents a nation armed with nuclear weapons to its eyeballs, and this already seems like old news.

Where is the rage that is directed toward Iran, that does NOT have nuclear weapons? Is it any wonder that much of the world sees Israel as a threat to peace?

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[geek tragedy]

102. Israel recalls ambassador to Australia

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1159193438167&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Israel's ambassador to Australia, Naftali Tamir, is on his way home to clarify comments in a newspaper interview in which he was quoted as saying that Israel and Australia are "like sisters in Asia," because "we don't have yellow skin and slanted eyes."

Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Ilana Ravid said that Tamir, who was on his way back to Canberra after a short vacation in Israel, was called back to Jerusalem for a "further clarification" to determine whether Tamir made the comments attributed to him.

Ravid said the fact that the ministry called Tamir back as he was en route to Australia indicated how seriously it took the matter.

She said Tamir told the ministry his comments were not accurately reported.

The ministry issued a statement on Friday saying that it was conducting an internal clarification to determine whether the quotes were accurate.

If the report was accurate, the statement said, then the remarks were "grave and unacceptable," and the ministry would not be able to carry on with "business as usual."

[breakaleg]

108. They want him to "clarify comments" which just means they want

to find a way to spin this or explain it away. Too bad.

[geek tragedy]

110. Is that you, Ms. Cleo? It's rare to have authentic psychic mind-readers

here at DU.

[eyl]

114. In a lot of societies, there's this odd custom

of letting a man try to explain himself before firing him. It's quaint, I know, but still...

[breakaleg]

117. and how can you explain these comments? Is there a way to

make racist comments not racist? I'd sure like to know if there is.

[geek tragedy]

144. They have to confirm that he actually said them. eom

[eyl]

146. The statements are indeed unquestionably racist

- if he made them as reported. That's what the hearing is to determine.

And in any case, it doesn't matter even if they know the reports were aaccurate - they still nead to hold a hearing before firing him, if only for the sale of appearance (and if the FM is like other workplaces I know, he can't be fired without some sort of hearing).

[UndertheOcean]

109. WOW !!!

OMG!

WOW !

[Englander]

128. Israeli envoy ordered home to explain racist remarks

Tuesday October 17, 2006
By Greg Ansley

CANBERRA - Israel's Canberra-based Ambassador to New Zealand has been ordered home to explain racist remarks about Australia's closest and most sensitive neighbours.

Nati Tamir, who eased Israel's fraught relations with New Zealand after flying to Wellington in the wake of the Mossad passport affair, reportedly made the remarks to an Israeli newspaper during a visit to Tel Aviv.

Mr Tamir is accredited to Wellington but is also Israel's ambassador to Australia, Papua New Guinea and Fiji.

>snip

Prime Minister Helen Clark said that if the remarks had been correctly reported, they were "completely unacceptable".

"If they were made by anyone in our public service there would be quite severe consequences."

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10406251

[Tom Joad]

130. We will find out the fate of this fool Wednesday.

But with the possible appointment of A. Lieberman to a government post, it certainly says nothing about Israel's lack of extremism, even if this ambassador is fired.

These people sound like they are out of the 1930's.

[cali]

143. Odd, I think it

does indeed say something if the Ambassador is fired, and conversely I think it says a great deal if he isn't.

[Tom Joad]

145. What does it say that he is a career diplomat? What does it say

when Lieberman is going to get a strategic post in the government? Lieberman makes this fool look like a liberal.