Israeli wall will compound economic woes

[Darranar]

The 360 km long wall being built by Israel would add to the economic woes of millions of Palestinian people living in the occupied territory of West Bank and Gaza and could hamper the economy, which is on the path of recovery, says a report issued by the IMF.

The wall, which is expected separate some 300,000 Palestinian people, would block the access to roads, water, urban markets, agricultural lands and public services. This in turn may result in a reduction of productive agricultural land and an exodus of the farming community along the wall and place a heavy and permanent burden on the economy of the West Bank.

The land involved in wall building, for which tens of thousands of olive and fruit trees have already been uprooted, is some of the most productive land in the West Bank says the report.

According to Karim Nashashibi, Resident Representative, IMF in Palestine and one of the authors of the report, the conflict in the region has severely impacted the Palestinian economy, which may have declined by 30 per cent since the Intifada movement began.

Gulf News

[wtmusic]

1. Haven't we learned about walls yet?

Walls are proof that God has a sense of humor.

[donsu]

2. the great wall of Israel will make matters far, far worse

even the people in Israel are aghast.

[Muddleoftheroad]

3. Seriously

Why is the Palestinian economy an issue for Israel?

(Yes, forget the moral obligation. I mean other than that?)

[Darranar]

4. This will foster terrorism...

domestic problems often do, especially when they can be blamed (rightfully or unrightfully) on an outside enemy.

Terrorism hurts the Isareli economy. That's clear.

[Muddleoftheroad]

5. Long term

Almost anything, including the existence of Israel, can be linked to terrorism. My point is this, once the Palestinians achieve a state, they should be on their own and not reliant on Israel for squat -- including transit from Gaza to the West Bank.

[Darranar]

7. They should be allowed to...

move from one part of their state to the other, IMO.

[Muddleoftheroad]

9. I agree

Just not through Israel. There is no inherent right of passage through one state to another.

Only nations at peace permit such things.

[Darranar]

18. How else...

can they travel to the other part of their state? By boat from Syria?

[Muddleoftheroad]

37. Honestly, that is up to them

Realistically, I think it should be two Palestinian states -- one in Gaza and one in the West Bank that are loosely affiliated.

Either way, travel between the two, as well as Palestinian employment in Israel, is highly dependent on Israel's friendship. Since the Palestinians spurn any attempt at going after terrorists, I would say that they will have to sort this out one day...one their own.

[LastDemInIdaho]

11. There is only ONE thing that can foster terrorism

And that is the sick mind of someone evil and disturbed enough to commit the act that is UNEXCUSABLE. Any human capable of murdering innocents does not need an excuse to execute their sick acts.

I don't see how you can even use the term "rightfully" when speaking of the act of murdering innocents. Anytime these demented suicide bombers of innocents light their fuse they are unrightfully acting out their hatred.

Everytime one of these bastards strap on their belts of death there is someone helping them and they are just as guilty and should be removed from civil society.

[Jackie97]

6. Well, Muddle....

Mess up the Palestinian economy by intentionally keeping them from working (which can lead to homelessness and starvation), and they might be desperate enough to go and blow somebody up in Jerusalem.

And I don't see Israel being in a hurry to allow the Palestinians to have their own independent state and not being contolled by them. Right now, the Palestinians have no control over their economy at all.

[LastDemInIdaho]

8. they might be desperate enough to go and blow somebody up in Jerusalem

And that would be different than what they do now? Other than making it harder for them to go blow up some more Israeli kids so they can pass out candy for killing Jews I don't see what would be different.

[Jackie97]

19. Ever heard of outside help?

The terrorism doesn't just work from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Other countries have helped the Palestinians out in the past. If they think that they need to, then they'll do it again.

What Israel is doing to the Palestinians now is already leaving many of them in a horrible economic shape. This will make things worse.

[Gimel]

35. Israeli economy

The economic toll on of the Intifada on Israel is immense. This is one of the goals of the Intifada, by the way. To cripple the Israeli economy. The only way to revive the economy of both Israel and the PA is to put an end to terrorism. The wall is a difficult medicine, but complaints out-strip the reality. The Palestinians suffer from the Intifada as well, and their leadership must have known this in advance. The use the Palestinian suffering as another weapon in the media war - electronic intifada.

Before the Intifada, a special road linking the West Bank and Gaza was under consideration, and was constructed. This by-pass road would be only for Palestinian use. Of course, since the Intifada, it has been shut down.

[Jackie97]

36. While I agree that the intifada has hurt the economy on both sides.....

I don't agree that this wall is going to solve the economical problem.

First, it will not end terrorism. There will always be ways for people who have means to get through there to do so. Furthermore, the Palestinian groups such as Hamas probably will start to turn to the outside countries for help. I hate to say it, but between Israel's occupation of ethnic cleansing, and several things that the US has done to ME countries (supported by Israel), the rest of the Middle East is pretty much fed up with Israel (they're fed up with us too, but Israel is right where they are).

Second, it will make the economy for Palestinians worse because many of them will loose their jobs (which will make desperation for terrorism greater).


"Before the Intifada, a special road linking the West Bank and Gaza was under consideration, and was constructed. This by-pass road would be only for Palestinian use. Of course, since the Intifada, it has been shut down."

I do love Israel's logic of separate, but equal. They want their own Jewish state, and would have built a road just for Palestinians. In their own country, they have a segregated school system. Many of the neighborhoods are segregated. They're all supposed to be separate, but equal. Where has this idea been tried before? Sorry to get off of the subject, I just wanted to point this issue out.

[Gimel]

41. No simple solution

As you seem to realize, there is no simple solution. The wall alone can't do enough to stop terrorism. This is understood by those who live near the Palestinian area (green line). Yet, they are determined to construct the wall for it's preventative action. It will reduce the ease of infiltration. No doubt about it. Electronically controlled and monitored with high-tech equipment, it is the most efficient barrier yet devised. Yet, cooperation on the Palestinian side to fight terror, to patrol their side of the barrier is also part of the solution to a total end to terror.

I don't think that Palestinians working in Israel will loose their jobs if they have to cross at monitored crossings. This was necessary anyway. Only those without documentation and crossing illegaly took the crossing points which the wall closes.

The corridor road was agreed on by the parties in the settlements, and not a unilateral act. So it was only to connect the two land areas. If you have better solution, submit it for consideration.

You then jump to criticizing Israel's school system. Let me explain. I taught English in a public high school in the northern city of Safed. Arab students, Circasian students, and temporary residents attended. A public school is open to everyone. There is however a religious school system, and that is open only to the religious students. Likewise, the Arab sector has their own school system.


This cannot be equated with southern segregation according to race, as you seem to be hinting at. It is not the same, because there are two cultures here. Each culture wants to retain it's own individual character. Each has a language and a religion.

Whereas in the US south, you had one language, one religion and segregated only according to race. That was unfair, because the economic and educational standards were different and the economy selected according to racial standards as well.

I can't judge the "equality" of the two cultures in Israel, because that means to most people economic assessment and the outcome of an economic credential which gets the graduate a place in the economic ladder of a country. Some values are different in the ME. Different from US values and expectations.

The Jewish nation has put new life into the language and culture of the people. That should not be robbed by a desire to see economic parity with all other groups. Why should Americans be telling Israelis that they have to destroy the Jewish life style in order to comply with democracy? There is that already in the US.

[Jackie97]

48. Things just aren't that simple.

"I don't think that Palestinians working in Israel will loose their jobs if they have to cross at monitored crossings. This was necessary anyway. Only those without documentation and crossing illegaly took the crossing points which the wall closes."

I wish I could believe that. The problem is that it's getting too well known for Palestinians to be blocked from work, school, and even going to a hospital because the checkpoint has to give them permission to get through.

"The corridor road was agreed on by the parties in the settlements, and not a unilateral act. So it was only to connect the two land areas. If you have better solution, submit it for consideration."

There's a number of better solutions. One could be to dismantle the settlements and make them move further inside of Israel. Compensate the people who lived there, so they can move elsewhere.

Another would be to dismantle the settlements to get them to move closer into Israel, let the Palestinians have their own state (with all of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and maybe something else), and build your wall at the boarders. Make a rule that neither Palestinians can cross into Israel or Israelis cross into Palestine. The Palestinians could then be left to build their own economy and other things without the interference of IDF. The wall would still be awful, but that would still be more humane than the way that they're doing it now.

Give Palestinians equal rights in the state, and help them rebuild the economy where they're at. Oddly enough, Arabs that actually have citizenship in Israel are not resorting to terrorism. Personally, I think that this should make it clear that this is more about Palestinian liberation than anti-semitism.

"You then jump to criticizing Israel's school system. Let me explain. I taught English in a public high school in the northern city of Safed. Arab students, Circasian students, and temporary residents attended. A public school is open to everyone."

Okay, I'm sorry for my lack of information. I had read information from an Israeli site on this subject. I must have read it wrong. Sorry.

"There is however a religious school system, and that is open only to the religious students. Likewise, the Arab sector has their own school system."

Did you know that different religious schools are getting different amounts of funding? Orthodox Jewish schools are getting more funding than other schools.

http://www.irac.org/article_e.asp?artid=144

Not to mention the fact that when a pluralistic religious school came about, they couldn't get funding.

http://www.irac.org/article_e.asp?artid=454

“Only six weeks before the opening of the coming school year the Reut School, a private school offering pluralistic education in Jerusalem, found itself without a school building. Making matters worse, Reut must vacate the premises that it has occupied for the last two year by the end of July and now it has no place to go.”

(snip).

“Reut, which was previously part of the state religious school stream, became an independent school in 1999. This course of action was required because the philosophic approach was too open and pluralistic to be able to remain within the state religious school system. From the beginning the City of Jerusalem opposed Reut's establishment as a private pluralistic school.”


I guess what I'm trying to say is that the state of Israel is being discrimitive on this funding for religious schools, just like US government was discrimitive towards African American schools during the time of Jim Crow laws.


"This cannot be equated with southern segregation according to race, as you seem to be hinting at. It is not the same, because there are two cultures here. Each culture wants to retain it's own individual character. Each has a language and a religion."

For the longest time, there has been people of different cultures and religions here in the United States. They all want to keep their cultures and religions too. Instead of having different schools for all of them funded by the government, they're taught their culture, language, and their religion by their family, places of worship, and from others in that culture. They don't need a school system to help them keep their culture. In fact, they can share their culture with people of other cultures in the public school system. People can learn from each other. There's not much room for learning from each other with segregation of any type.

"Whereas in the US south, you had one language, one religion and segregated only according to race."

Totally untrue. See above. English is our main language, but it certainly isn't our only language. I don't know where you get the idea of there just being one religion from because we've always had a variety of religions (even if ones outside of Christianity were/are not accepted well).

"That was unfair, because the economic and educational standards were different and the economy selected according to racial standards as well."

Likewise, they're picking favorites to fund more in the Israeli Religious School system. It's not unfair at all to make the comparison. The only area where I will give Israel more credit is that they (unlike the US during Jim Crow laws) do leave a public school open for everybody. Their religious school system wouldn't be so bad if they were not discrimitive in the funding area.

"I can't judge the "equality" of the two cultures in Israel, because that means to most people economic assessment and the outcome of an economic credential which gets the graduate a place in the economic ladder of a country. Some values are different in the ME. Different from US values and expectations."

Could you explain further to me what these differences in values are, exactly?

"The Jewish nation has put new life into the language and culture of the people. That should not be robbed by a desire to see economic parity with all other groups."

How would economic parity rob the Jewish nation of their life and culture? The Jewish nation survived as the oppressed for two thousand years, and you're saying that they're not strong enough to survive "parity"? Give me a break.

"Why should Americans be telling Israelis that they have to destroy the Jewish life style in order to comply with democracy?"

I don't see how EQUALITY in Israel would destroy Jewish life. You make it sound like Jews should have more than Arabs in Israel because they just can't survive as a nation unless they do have more. That's pathetic.

"There is that already in the US."

And what is that supposed to mean?

[Gimel]

53. A country of controversy

Work permits are required for Palestinians who wish to enter to enter Israel. Today 10,000 workers from Gaza and 5,000 from the West Bank were allowed to cross into Israel.* The constant threat of terror attacks has made the border crossing checkpoints necessary. Of course it is a big bottleneck and causes many problems. This is the point of contention. Those on one side want easy access, Israelis want security. Too many Palestinians terrorist have entered with concealed bombs and weapons. Most are apprehended. However, the number of attacks in the past 33 months of the intifada should make you aware of the dangers. There is no way I can make you see this point, if you don't have any sense of what security means. Perhaps you take it for granted.

I know what the south was like some 40 years ago. I know there was a Baptist Church for the white folk and another poor Baptist Church for the blacks. I know there was hopeless poverty for the black community and huge mansions for the whites.

The many problems facing individual schools in Israel are without end. Religious schools have more funds because the parents pay tuition directly to the school system, as well as paying community taxes for schools. Public schools are funded by parents paying the school taxes for the students. Each municipality has its own schools, and they are all funded in this way. There is no free education. The education ministry has a budget, this helps to build the schools and pay teachers and operating expenses. Parents by the books, and pay an education fee for each child in school.

The second link you posted, about the reut school is a couple of years old. This year, the education budget has been drastically cut, as have most of Israel government programs. Thousands of teachers have been dismissed due to lack of funding.

If you want equality, I suggest that you work for it in your own city and state.

There are human values outside the economic. There are family values as well as values learned from cultural and religious history. There are the values of developing a human being. Unfortunately, the American system is a failure for the most part. It has taken 200 years to discover that. The problems of youth, violence and crime, drugs and the export of the values of such are not a very favorable impression on the world.


As you in the US have found out, there is no such thing as "separate and equal". In Israel each kibbutz had it's own school.
Education belongs to the community. If we say that you have to bus the Arab kids from across the county into the kibbutz school you are talking about the moon, as far as Israel is concerned. It's not going to happen.

Given the severe economic straits that Israel has always been under, I must emphasize, that Israel and Israelis have always been doing the very best that they can under the given circumstances and conditions.


Equality is a strong word to apply concerning all children. You have nothing like equality in the US, so don't pretend that you have all the answers there. I never said that EQUALITY would destroy Jewish life.

I get the idea that you want to stage in Israel something like integrated housing. One Jewish house, the next Arab, the next Christian, etc. All with the same number of rooms, the same number of kids, the same television with the same programs, the same color on the walls and drapes identical to the next in the windows. So they forget about religion, and just watch TV and then grow up to search for real meaning, because their homelife was sterile.

There's a famous song about it that goes "Little boxes on the hillside, little boxes just the same."

On Edit:

*I just noticed on Ha'aretz that 25,000 workers will be allowed in tomorrow as a good will measure. That takes many hours at check points on both sides.

[Jackie97]

58. No equality anywhere, but it can be worked towards.

This is just a quicky. First, I do consider the issue of security in Israel AND THE WEST BANK/GAZA STRIP. This wall will not solve the problems on either side, and I've done explained why. It's not so much that I take security for granted. It's that I get to look at this situation from the outside.

And no, I never said that my country didn't still have equality problems along with a hell of a lot of other problems.

As far as Jews, Muslims, and Christians living side by side in houses, why not? They don't have to watch TV and turn into zombies without a culture or a religion. They can keep learning their culture and religion and actually share it with others who are interested.

And to respond to a quote of yours:

"I never said that EQUALITY would destroy Jewish life."

That is exactly what you said when you said this:

"The Jewish nation has put new life into the language and culture of the people. That should not be robbed by a desire to see economic parity with all other groups."

Parity is a form of equality. Period.

[Gimel]

59. Sorry,

I don't see it that way at all. You have added a lot of your own interpretation to my words, so that changes the meaning.

If you have to have economic equality, there's not a nation in the world that guarantees it or even claims to strive for it. It's an illusion. When democracy speaks of equality, that is equality before the law. Equal rights and equal justice. Equal opportunity exists in Israel as much as in the US.

[Jackie97]

60. Really?

"You have added a lot of your own interpretation to my words, so that changes the meaning."

Okay, I apologize if that's the case. What did you mean exactly by this then?

"The Jewish nation has put new life into the language and culture of the people. That should not be robbed by a desire to see economic parity with all other groups. Why should Americans be telling Israelis that they have to destroy the Jewish life style in order to comply with democracy? There is that already in the US."

Why did you say that the Jewish nation put new life into the language and culture of the people, and then suggest that it could get "robbed" by a "desire to see economic parity"?

"If you have to have economic equality, there's not a nation in the world that guarantees it or even claims to strive for it."

That's why I'm a Socialist. Socialism strives for economic equality..

"When democracy speaks of equality, that is equality before the law. Equal rights and equal justice. Equal opportunity exists in Israel as much as in the US."

Does it exist if one type of school is getting more funding and therefore better education than the other? I would like to make a bet that kids from those Orthodox schools are getting a better education than those from the other religious schools and are therefore getting more opportunity out in the Israeli workforce later on. BTW, equal funding for schools should be in law as it's supposed to be in Israel.

The truth is that the economics of equality are just as important as other aspects of equality.

[Gimel]

64. economic democracy

Why did you say that the Jewish nation put new life into the language and culture of the people, and then suggest that it could get "robbed" by a "desire to see economic parity"?


Apparently, the economic aspects of a life-style are those of overwhelming importance to you. There are basic cultural differences, between the two religions, Judaism and Moslem. These differences are greater than between different denominations of the same religion, say Baptist and Catholic, for instance. The Mormons in the Salt Lake area are an example of a religion with more basic differences. In fact it is not a Christian sect. So the Mormons went to found their own land in Utah. Today they have become more integrated, and bigamy is only practiced in secret. Still, they sought their own community to live according to their own religious convictions.

Jews and Moslems are even farther apart than Mormons and Catholics. The Moslem religion, like the Christian religion, negates Judaic history. To do this, they deny the truth of the Jewish faith.

But since were are asked not to discuss religions on this forum, I'm afraid that I've already said more than I should have.

To simplify, the practices and traditions of the religion, the character of the two people does not harmonize.

Economic parity is impossible to create, not only in Israel but in the USA. With a free market economy, everyone is encouraged to do his/her own thing. There is no promise of social or economic equity. That's a pure socialism.

[Jackie97]

65. You don't have to explain the religion thing to me.

I already know about it and understand it better than you might think that I do. I'm not an expert, but I do understand some of it.


"To simplify, the practices and traditions of the religion, the character of the two people does not harmonize."

Why can't they ever harmonize? Instead of it being an "Us" vs "Them" thing, why can't it be like learning from each other. Who knows? You might find that you have more similarities than differences.

"Economic parity is impossible to create, not only in Israel but in the USA. With a free market economy, everyone is encouraged to do his/her own thing. There is no promise of social or economic equity. That's a pure socialism."

Okay, but what did that have to do with how it would supposedly rob the Jews of their culture to advocate economic parity for the other groups? What makes the Jews different here on this subject, and how does economics have to do with it?

[Muddleoftheroad]

10. A Palestinian state

The flip side is I could argue I don't see any Palestinian leadership attempting to stem the tide of terror. Lacking a true partner in peace, why the hell should Israel bother?

As for the economic realities, too many here assume that the Palestinians get what they want and Israel is just supposed to go along. It doesn't work that way. Even if a Palestinian state is born, there is no obligation for Israel to work with such a state, or allow its citizens transit into Israel.

[cherryperry]

13. Thank you, Muddleoftheroad!!!

To add to your good "argument", the so-called economic realities of the Palestinian Arabs is one which could very easily have been rendered nil long ago as well as now by their Arab brethren in any number of the incredibly rich Arab states, (e.g. Saudi Arabia), who simply ignore their needs in order to place the onus on Israel.

Yo, Muddle: :pals:

[Violet_Crumble]

14. Muddles argument was nonsense...

If yr reading this, Muddle, no offense or anything. Nothing but some bizarre strain of Retardo-Realism where only certain Muddle Approved States should have absolute sovereignty over what happens inside their borders and Non-Approved States can go bugger off. He doesn't seem to understand that because Israel is occupying Palestinian territories, the onus is on Israel to ensure that the Palestinian economy isn't destroyed by their occupation. If an Arab state was the occupying power, then the onus would be on them. That's got nothing to do with what I feel is an inherently racist view that the onus is always only on those of the same ethnic group to do something. Using that sort of 'thinking', I guess you'd think the onus to provide aid to a multitude of tiny Pacific islands is on other Pacific Islanders and not the totally different ethnicity that makes up more powerful regional, ex-colonial states like Australia and New Zealand? Urgh...


Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

15. I am surprised

You usually read better than that. So I will assume you were tired.

My economic comments were referring to a Palestinian state.

If the Palestinians can ever get in the game enough to pull that off, that doesn't equate to them having rights to enter or traverse Israel.

[Gimel]

42. Good points were made

Muddle's post 10 addressed the problem of stopping terrorists, which is the purpose of the wall. While it isn't 100% fool-proof, it will increase security and decrease the loss of human life. Israel was pushed to make this radical solution due to a lack of cooperation on the Palestinians side. If they see the wall as undesirable, maybe they will try to co-operate in the efforts to stop terrorism. Only a change of attitude on the part of the leaders, and a change of view among the many anti-Israeli activists, will bring peace. This was Muddleoftheroad's point, as I read it.

The economic fall-out due to the construction is not sufficient to negate the life-saving properties it has already shown. Adjustments are needed, and time will help repair the damage to the land. Remember that terrorism is a crime against humanity. The wall is to prevent what human guards are unable to. Infiltration of terrorists.

[Violet_Crumble]

47. How does the path the wall's taking increase security?

Explain how building it deep into Palestinian territory adds security that building it along the Green Line wouldn't....

You act like this wall is something that only appeared as an idea very recently. It's been floating around for a long time. I have no real problem with a wall that would go along the Green Line, which is what I believe Labor supported, but I do have a problem with a wall that takes in more territory that doesn't belong to Israel, and the reason Sharon is doing this is because he wants that land and that's why he was so opposed in the past to any wall along the Green Line...

Fortunately many folk are capable of seeing that it takes two to tango and Israel has done very little to show the world that it wants to assist in any way in stopping attacks on Israeli civilians. Maybe when Israel gets a real leadership and not the corrupt warmongering criminal they've got now, things will change....

How come you keep on insisting that anyone who voices criticism of Israels actions in the Occupied Territories is anti-Israel? I don't see any difference between that and the right-wingers who are always wailing that any criticism of US foreign policy is anti-America...

Violet...

[Gimel]

51. What?

How am I "acting" to make you believe that. I've been writing about the wall on the internet since the idea was first proposed in Jan of 02. You sound like you've been to the site and inspected it. You've been claiming this wall is in such and such a place, and in fact the controversial portions haven't even been built yet.

Fortunately many folk are capable of seeing that it takes two to tango and Israel has done very little to show the world that it wants to assist in any way in stopping attacks on Israeli civilians. Maybe when Israel gets a real leadership and not the corrupt warmongering criminal they've got now, things will change....

Really? And how is it the hundreds of suicide attacks are prevented, and thousands of infiltrations of armed Palestinians halted? You seem extremely naive as to the extent and the vigilance that accomplishes that.

How come you keep on insisting that anyone who voices criticism of Israels actions in the Occupied Territories is anti-Israel?

If I've said this even once, then I earnestly apologize. No one should be called anti-Israel, especially on this forum.

[Violet_Crumble]

52. You didn't answer the question...

How does the path that wall's taking deep into Palestinian territory going to ensure security any more than a wall built along the Green Line?

Uh, I'm talking waaaay back before 2002. And as I've never made any claim or implied that I've been to the wall, you seem to be quite wrong on what things seem like to you. I've never claimed that the wall has been completed or the highly controversial parts built yet. I've always spoken of the path the wall is taking...

If there weren't any suicide-bombings some folk would create a cottage industry where they conjure up a mountain of attacks that were foiled. If you believe that Sharon has done anything productive in stopping suicide-bombings and that Israel doesn't need a new leadership that's prepared to work in the interests of Israelis, then that's yr opinion, but that opinion isn't backed up by what's happening. Left-wing Israelis have written articles about how bad Sharon is for Israel's security, and somehow I think these left-wingers aren't ashamed to criticise Sharon and his policies...

Apology accepted. That was easy!

Violet...

[Gimel]

55. Your opening

Sorry, I almost didn't see that first sentence.

The land here is not like a smooth desert or any thing like that. The green line cuts through forests and over uninhabited and inhabited areas. Since the 67 demarcation thirty-six years of life have transpired. A settlement a few kilometers on one side, an Arab village on the Israeli side, make achieving the intended purpose of the wall difficult, especially if the '67 line is to be followed.

The speed that is desirable in building the wall, the constant problems of security while building it (Palestinians gunmen have mad numerous attacks), all add additional constraints for time and money. Surly you have enough imagination to understand that.

Thank's for graciously accepting the apology. Maybe I will find the offensive words that you claim I wrote someday. I'll keep looking.

As for your complaints about Israeli security forces, I won't make any comments other than to say that you won't believe anything I say, even though I live not 30 miles from the greenline and you live some 8800 thousand. So thank you for being so concerned.

[Violet_Crumble]

62. Oh, so it's all about topography?

That explanation doesn't work, Gimel. You know why? Even though you continually carry on about how you *know* the facts in regard to the conflict whereas those of us thousands of miles away don't, there's this newfangled thing called the television that I just happened to be watching one night when something was on showing construction of the wall. Trees were being chopped down and it was meandering its way through some very hilly country, so claiming those as reasons why the wall isn't following the Green Line closely has no logic. Neither does talking about attacks by Palestinian gunmen. If they've launched attacks while it was being built along the Green Line, then moving the wall deeper into Palestinian territory doesn't reduce the risk of attacks happening, but would probably sharply increase them. The only logical reason why it's not following the Green Line is because Sharon wants to take more land by including most of those illegal settlements on the Israel side of the wall. That's the reason he was so opposed to the wall when Barak first came up with the plan. Now he's running the show he can include his beloved settlements on his side of the wall, so he's happy. Surely you have enough imagination to understand that, eh?

Also, when it comes to you trying to refute what people say by pointing out they don't live in Israel, there's quite a few Israelis who don't agree with Sharon or you on this matter or with many of the opinions you've expressed in this forum, so there goes yr argument about proximity giving you some advantage when it comes to facts. In the case of the wall, B'Tselem have a position paper on the wall which you should read if you haven't already...

http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/Behind_The_Barrier_2003.asp

Hey, you don't even need to use the search function to find where you referred to people who are 'anti-Israel'. It's right here in this thread. And if claiming in another thread that I denounce Israel any way possible doesn't make me 'anti-Israel', what do you define as being 'anti-Israel'?

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

46. There is no Palestinian state...

Which explains our misunderstanding, I think. The article was referring to the situation now and the economic hardship being caused by some aspects of the occupation. We can all sit and talk about what it'll be like if and when there's a Palestinian state, but I'd hazard a guess that economically Israel and Palestine would be pretty closely intertwined...

Also, it's not so much that someone has a right to enter or travel through a country - it's about a country refusing those rights to people based solely on their nationality or ethnicity. I'd hate to see Israel slide to where we were in the first half of the 20th century where only certain nationalities or ethnic groups were welcome and Prime Ministers had no shame in uttering things like 'Two Wongs Don't Make A White' in Parliament...

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

50. The problem

The problem remains that these are two groups essentially at war. Why would Israel allow transit by the enemy until peace is achieved?

[Violet_Crumble]

63. Because Israel has no right to stop transit within the OT...

From the article: "The regime of check points and internal closures within the West Bank and Gaza has paralysed trade and raised transaction costs, but the economy has been more resilient than might have been expected."

Also, the Palestinian people aren't the enemy, and there's no such thing as an 'essential' state of war. Yr either at war or yr not. If there's a war, then Israel should be treating Palestinian prisoners as POWs which they're not...

Violet...

[Jackie97]

21. Excuse me?

If Israel (which is currently occupying the Palestinians) shouldn't be responsible for the current economic condition of the Palestinians when they become a state, then why should a bunch of countries that don't occupy them be held responsible now or in the past? Just because they're Arab?

[Jackie97]

20. Yet another flip side.

"The flip side is I could argue I don't see any Palestinian leadership attempting to stem the tide of terror."

Abbas had persuaded the militant groups to refrain from attacks for a while. They were going to do it, but Israel could not stop attacking and killing people in operations.


"Lacking a true partner in peace, why the hell should Israel bother?"

One could say the exact same thing about Ariel Sharon and the Likud party in Israel. He's not a true peace partner and neither is the Likud. With almost fifty settlements built in the time that Sharon took office, it's safe to say that he's not interested in peace with the Palestinians at all. On that note, why should the Palestinians bother trying to make peace with Israel?

This works both ways.

"As for the economic realities, too many here assume that the Palestinians get what they want and Israel is just supposed to go along. It doesn't work that way. Even if a Palestinian state is born, there is no obligation for Israel to work with such a state, or allow its citizens transit into Israel."

If Israel would let the Palestinians have their state without guarded boarders and then leave them the heck alone, then the Palestinians could slowly but surely build their economy. As it is right now, Israel is screwing up their economy with their constant operations, curfews, and this wall. Not to mention the fact that the IDF is oftentimes the reason why a Palestinian needs to go to the hospital to begin with (Injuries cause Palestinians to need to transit to Israel for a doctor, but this would highly decrease once the occupation stopped).


If Israel would get the heck out, and leave the Palestinians alone, then the Palestinians could build their own economy. They wouldn't need a darn thing from Israel.

[Muddleoftheroad]

38. Without guarded borders

Are you nuts? Why the hell should Israel do that?

OK, for a second answer this. Do you oppose the wall or just its location?

As for what they need from Israel -- they need Israel's help creating a state, allowing transit and providing employment. Sure sounds like a lot to moi.

[Jackie97]

49. A wall is okay to build, once the Palestinians have their own state.

Because Isreal couldn't build the wall where they wanted to then.

"Are you nuts? Why the hell should Israel do that?"

Because they're the ones who brought on the terrorism in the first place with their oppression and will provoke more with even more oppression. Plus, Israel is responsible for those areas as long as the Palestinians don't have their own state. Once they have their own state, then Israel isn't responsible for anything outside of any agreements.

"As for what they need from Israel -- they need Israel's help creating a state, allowing transit and providing employment. Sure sounds like a lot to moi."

All they need from Israel (or whoever will help them get it from Israel) is LIBERATION. If they get that in the form of their own state (which, liberation means that IDF has to leave them alone), then they can rebuild their nation economically and otherwise. Right now, the IDF is constantly knocking them down, holding them down, and kicking them when they're down. That has to stop.

[Gimel]

43. Shared labor

Yesterday, 7,000 Palestinians with permits entered Israel for work. The econopmic damage done to the Palestinian side during the Intifada was largely due to loss of income frome wages earned in Israel. A complete separation of the two economies is a long way off.

[Muddleoftheroad]

44. That's a mistake

I wouldn't issue another work permit or transit permit until this is all settled, if it ever is.

These are two groups at war. We didn't issue work visas to Germans during WWII.

[Gimel]

56. Well it's difficult to do so

The symbiotic relationship goes back decades. Palestinians have provided labor since before the Jewish State was born.

There is an international outcry when Israel closes it's borders completely for an extended period of time. The Palestinians are close to starvation. Many of the kibbutz farmers now rely on Palestinians to harvest crops. So thousands if not millions of shekels in agricultural produce have been lost due to the Intifada. Foreign workers have been brought in, but that produces another set of social and economic problems.

However, since the Intifada and the wave of suicide bomb attacks killing over 500 civilians and 300 soldiers, the construction of the wall barrier as well as the gradual reduction of the dependency on the Palestinian labor has been part of the over-all long term security plan.

The development of the Palestinian economy will have to supplant their dependency on Israel for jobs and wages.

[Scurrilous]

12. The Palestinian economy ..

..is an issue for Israel because the Palestinians are the unwilling wards of the Israeli state. Israel controls the external borders of the occupied territories. Israel also controls access from the occupied territories into Israel proper. The Palestinians are in effect, prisoners of Israel. As Palestine's jailer, Israel must accept responsibility for their problems. If you don't want to deal with the economic problems in Palestine, get the hell out of their country and let them handle their own affairs.

[Muddleoftheroad]

16. The territories

Israel would be happy to turn over territory to a peaceful Palestinian state that fights terrorism. Funny how THAT option is never a choice.

[MariMayans]

25. How do you figure?

This will never happen and was never intended to happen by any Israeli government that has existed since 1967. Israel didn't even want to give back the Sinai until they decided they could very easily lose a replay of 1973 unless Egypt was neutralized.

Back then the selling point was always "secure borders" but when negotiations started the sticking points weren't borders at all but Israeli settlements and oil refineries (used to make the US pony up cash for their replacements). Your view of this benevolent Israeli government is quite naive.

[Alex88]

28. Fiction

"Israel would be happy to turn over territory to a peaceful Palestinian state that fights terrorism. Funny how THAT option is never a choice."
Post #12 to which you were replying pointed out that Israel's controls of the external borders are what create the economic dependence.

No Israeli government has ever expressed a willingness to allow the Palestinians to create an independant Palestinian state. This, by definition, would mean that the Palestinian authorities on the West bank and Gaza Strip would have control of their external borders, ground water, and air above them. If you can prove otherwise do so?

[Muddleoftheroad]

39. tit for tat

No Palestinian government has ever tackled the terror problem and presented themselves as a viable and peaceful neighbor.

[Alex88]

40. No "tit for tat"

You said "Israel would be happy to turn over territory to a peaceful Palestinian state that fights terrorism" in reply to a post pointing out that the reason for Palestinian economic dependence on Israel is that "Israel controls the external borders of the occupied territories." and that "The Palestinians are in effect, prisoners of Israel".

Name an Israeli government that ever expressed a willingness to allow the Palestinians to create an independant Palestinian state, if they "ever tackled the terror problem and presented themselves as a viable and peaceful neighbor."?

BTW, Israel has never ceased confiscating Palestinian land and building settlements on the West Bank and Gaza Strip since their occupation began in 1967. Suicide bombings which started in the 1990's are far from a constant and their have been long periods of their absence many times since they first began. So Israel's deeds are a statement in themselves to the Palestinians about whether or not Israel "would be happy" to allow them to create an independant Palestinian state if they "ever tackled the terror problem".

[Muddleoftheroad]

45. Palestinian terror

Has been going on for decades under the auspices of His Corruptness Arafat. Never in that time have the Palestinians mustered a leadership that was peace-oriented and willing to tackle the terrorists.

There was a strong peace movement in Israel. A movement that was beaten and bloodied by Arafat's Intifada.

The Palestinians could have had a state a decade ago if they had been willing to go the route of peace. Arafat never has.

[Alex88]

54. Repetition

"Name an Israeli government that ever expressed a willingness to allow the Palestinians to create an independant Palestinian state, if they "ever tackled the terror problem and presented themselves as a viable and peaceful neighbor."? "

You respond with no evidence to support your previous claims, just repetition of them and more Arafat and Palestinian bashing.

BTW it was a Jewish Israeli that assassinated Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, not Arafat or any Palestinian.

[Muddleoftheroad]

57. You do much the same

I don't need to bash Arafat or the Palestinians. Both do it well enough on their own.

[Alex88]

61. A correction

This post for what it's worth is intended to make a correction to my last post in this thread that was rushed and upon reflection not a productive one.

The post made reference to the assassin of Yitzhak Rabin as a "Jewish Israeli" "not Arafat or any Palestinian". To be clear, he was a radical Jewish Israeli.

[Gimel]

17. Rather the reverse

Israel is the unwilling wardens of the Palestinians. The Palestinians need to handle their own affairs, and stop the bombing of Israel. If Israel closes the borders, the same as putting a fence around the area, they claim they are starving. Many of the natural resources are shared, so that necessitates co-operation. The Palestinians should be the wards of Jordan. Israel would never be happier than to agree to it.

[LastDemInIdaho]

22. The wall will help Israels economy

Right now tourists are afraid to visit Israel because some palestinians have chosen to blow up the tourists or anyone that happens to be in a crowded area. Sadly, it will take a wall to prevent those that lust after killing women and children to satisfy their morbid taste for the death of Israelis and Jews.

Olive and fruit trees can all be removed if it helps save just one innocents life.

[tinnypriv]

23. Just curious

You ever made a post where you didn't mention homicide bombers in some way?

If so, please point me to it. I'd love to see that rarity.

[LastDemInIdaho]

27. I'll buy you a star if you do the search

And then get back to me with a public apology for talking shit if you find just one non-suicidal post. The ones where I die on stage trying to be funny or wise don't count. :-)

[Darranar]

24. So you're an Israel Firstist?

The wall will help Israels economy

Not neccesarily. Rocket attacks will continue, and I have serious trouble believing that the Palestinians will not find a way to bypass the wall.

In addition, why doesn't Israel build this wall on the Green Line? That will avoid harming the Palestinian economy as much.

Sadly, it will take a wall to prevent those that lust after killing women and children to satisfy their morbid taste for the death of Israelis and Jews.

What about Israeli lust for expansionism and sxtealing land? This seems a blatant attempt to steal land to me.

[MariMayans]

26. the wall won't work..

but not because a wall can't work, but because they are leaving Palestinians on the wrong side of it if it leaves settlers on the other side of the wall.

You are quite correct, it has little to do with security and everything to do with making facts on the ground that will be impossible to reverse.

[LastDemInIdaho]

29. I am me and we are non-innocent killers first

>Not neccesarily. Rocket attacks will continue, and I have serious trouble believing that the Palestinians will not find a way to bypass the wall.

Rocket attacks from the wrong side will be met with bigger rockets. That is the way the better survive.

>In addition, why doesn't Israel build this wall on the Green Line? That will avoid harming the Palestinian economy as much.

In addition it's best to not go negative if you want to stay positive. The Palestinian economy will begin where the Palestinian terror against innocents ends.

The steeling of Israel began when the stealing started with the Palestinian and Arab lust for expansionism and driving the Jews into the sea and it won't end until Israel is free from terror.

[Darranar]

30. Response...

Rocket attacks from the wrong side will be met with bigger rockets. That is the way the better survive.

Escalation of a conflict is an excellent solution, isn't it? :eyes:

In addition it's best to not go negative if you want to stay positive.

I don't understand this remark.

The Palestinian economy will begin where the Palestinian terror against innocents ends.

How does an economy "begin?" And since when is collective punishment of a population for the actions of a few a worthwhile option? The worse the economy gets, the worse terrorism will get, IMO.

The steeling of Israel began when the stealing started with the Palestinian and Arab lust for expansionism and driving the Jews into the sea and it won't end until Israel is free from terror.

This is a run-on sentence that is very hard to comprehend but I'll do my best to comprehend it. Land-grabbing has been a tactic from the beginning of the Zionist settlements in Israel. There is no excuse for more now, now that the refuge has been made a reality.

[cherryperry]

31. Absolutely, Darranar!

Those greedy Jews...

Look at all that land they have compared to the Arab lands - simply disgraceful!


If their Arab brethren cared a bit about the Palestinian Arabs, they would have been resettled ages ago just as Israel has done for the Jews. However, that would not serve their agenda of trying to be the victims of the world. How sad they would rather have their own suffer just to keep people such as yourself continually giving Israel the blame!

[Darranar]

33. Who is to blame for the Holocaust?

The Nazis or the Americans?

[LastDemInIdaho]

32. check

mate

[Darranar]

34. By me...

since you seem to be ignoring my points.