Israel admits using phosphorus bombs during war in Lebanon

[tocqueville]

By Meron Rappaport, Haaretz Correspondent

Israel has acknowledged for the first time that it attacked Hezbollah targets during the second Lebanon war with phosphorus shells. White phosphorus causes very painful and often lethal chemical burns to those hit by it, and until recently Israel maintained that it only uses such bombs to mark targets or territory.

The announcement that the Israel Defense Forces had used phosphorus bombs in the war in Lebanon was made by Minister Jacob Edery, in charge of government-Knesset relations. He had been queried on the matter by MK Zahava Gal-On (Meretz-Yahad).

"The IDF holds phosphorus munitions in different forms," Edery said. "The IDF made use of phosphorous shells during the war against Hezbollah in attacks against military targets in open ground."

Edery also pointed out that international law does not forbid the use of phosphorus and that "the IDF used this type of munitions according to the rules of international law."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/777549.html

[uppityperson]

1. kick for humanity

[fooj]

2. International law doesn't forbid the use of phosphorus?

:grr:

[Solo_in_MD]

8. No

Its pretty nasty stuff, but is not condisdered WMD or chemical weapon

[Warren Stupidity]

14. Wrong.

It is an incendiary weapon and as such is banned from use whenever it might harm civilians. See my other post with the link to the relevant GC protocols. The US has not ratified article III, so if you would like to cling to that excuse, be my guest, however Israel appears to have accepted article III and thus doesn't have this fig leaf to cling to.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/WebSign?ReadForm&id=500&ps=P

Here is a DOD analysis explaining why they think it is ok to burn up civilians:

"Accordingly, we recommend that the United States, in accepting the Incendiary Weapons Protocol, reserve the right to use incendiary weapons against military targets located in concentration of civilians where it is judged that such use would cause fewer casualties and less collateral damage than alternative weapons."

For example, Fallujah.

[Ms. Clio]

47. yes, thanks

the willful ignorance is so fucking tedious.

[Englander]

3. From July;

Israel using chemical weapons: doctors

July 27, 2006 - 6:39AM

Lebanon is investigating reports from doctors that Israel has used weapons in its 15-day-old bombardment of southern Lebanon that have caused wounds they have never seen before.

"We are sending off samples tomorrow, but we have no confirmation yet that illegal weapons have been used," Health Minister Mohammed Khalife said.

The Israeli army said it had used only conventional weapons and ammunition in attacks aimed at Hizbollah guerrillas and nothing contravening international law.

Blackened bodies have been showing up at hospitals in southern Lebanon two weeks into the war between Israel and Hizbollah guerrillas that has seen at least 418 people, mostly civilians, killed in Lebanon and at least 42 Israelis.

Killed by Israeli air raids, the Lebanese dead are charred in a way local doctors, who have lived through years of civil war and Israeli occupation, say they have not seen before.

Bachir Cham, a Belgian-Lebanese doctor at the Southern Medical Centre in Sidon, received eight bodies after an Israeli air raid on nearby Rmeili which he said exhibited such wounds.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Israel-using-chemical-weapons-doctors/2006/07/27/1153816285823.html



When rockets and phosphorous cluster
By Meron Rapoport

>snip

At the same time, soldiers are reporting that they fired phosphorous shells, which are supposed to be used by the IDF for marking or setting fire to areas, in order to start fires in Lebanon. The artillery commander says he saw trucks with phosphorous shells en route to artillery batteries in the North.

A direct hit from a phosphorous shell causes severe burns and a painful death. Around a year ago, there was an international scandal after a television crew presented harsh pictures of the charred bodies of Iraqis injured by phosphorous bombs during the course of the American attack on the city of Fallujah.

International law prohibits the use of weapons that cause "excessive damage and unnecessary suffering," and many experts feel that phosphorous is included in this category. The International Red Cross determined that international law prohibits the use of phosphorous against humans. The American "Book of War," published in 1999, which sets down the rules of war for the American army, states: "The ground war law prohibits the use of phosphorous against human targets." The pact on prohibiting or limiting flammable weapons bans the use of phosphorous against civilian targets and against military targets found amid large civil populations.

The IDF Spokesperson said: "International law does not contain a sweeping ban on the use of cluster bombs. The Conventional Weapons Pact does not stipulate a ban on the use of inflammatory weapons (i.e., phosphorous - M.R.), rather it only offers rules for organizing the use of this weapon. For understandable operational reasons, the IDF will not comment on a detailed listing of the weaponry at its disposal. The IDF uses only methods and weapons that are permitted according to international law. The firing of artillery in general, including the firing of artillery to demolish a target, was initiated in response to firing at the State of Israel only." The defense minister's bureau said in response that it had yet to receive an inquiry on the matter of firing cluster rockets.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/761910.html

[Solo_in_MD]

9. In previous discussion here and elsewhere it was pointed out

that the symptoms and wound described at at one point in photographs are inconsistent with WP. There has been speculation about microwave and DIME style weapons, but know one really knows.

[Englander]

49. That "elsewhere".

That wouldn't be Zombietime, would it?

[soothsayer]

4. I guess that confirms that we're using them in Iraq, too

[Warren Stupidity]

6. It is documented that they were used in Fallujah. nt.

[Warren Stupidity]

5. Here is the law.

"Protocol III on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Incendiary Weapons prohibits, in all circumstances, making the civilian population as such, individual civilians or civilian objects, the object of attack by any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat or a combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target. "
http://www.un.org/millennium/law/xxvi-18-19.htm

Israel is making the less than credible claim that it only used these weapons against military targets. That claim must be viewed with vast skepticism as 1) Israel (given the hugely disproportionate civilian casualty rate) appeared to view the entire population of Lebanon as a military target; 2) the initial reports of the use of chemical weapons came from doctors called to treat civilian casualties.

[breakaleg]

12. Israel apparently did view all Lebanese as either Hezbollah in civilian

clothes or collaborators/ supporters. I find that stance interesting. Aren't most Israeli adults former IDF members and in the reserves? If so, wouldn't they be considered military members not in uniform as well?

[Warren Stupidity]

13. I've made the same point.

The dual standard is stunning. When Hezbollah hit an apartment building it could have made the claim that the residents included IDF soldiers, it didn't make such a justification, but it could have and it would have been as valid as the Israeli justifications for war crimes, which is to say laughable.

[no_hypocrisy]

7. WMDs. UN sanctions, anyone? n/t

[Solo_in_MD]

10. For what?

No evidence at this point that war crimes were committed.

- WP is not a considered a chemical weapon or a WMD
- No one is sure what the unusual wounds were caused by

I'm all for a serious investigation, but until something concrete is turned up, claims of war crimes are hyperble and nothing more.

[originalpckelly]

11. My friend, they admitted to using the White Phosphorus...

Obviously you didn't read the article:
"But last week, Cabinet minister Jacob Edery confirmed during a parliamentary query session that Israel had used the weapons during August fighting against Hezbollah, his spokeswoman, Orly Yehezkel, said. Edery was speaking on behalf of Defense Minister Amir Peretz, she said.

"The Israeli army holds phosphorous munitions in different forms," Haaretz quoted Edery as saying. "The Israeli army made use of phosphorous shells during the war against Hezbollah in attacks against military targets in open ground.""

As to the question about war crimes, you correct there is a debate as to whether WP should be considered a chemical weapon. Because of the fact that it causes damage by the physical property of being incredibly hot, it is considered a physical weapon.

There is a treaty (which I am unsure whether or not Israel is a signatory to) which prevents the use of chemical weapons, but if this is not a chemical weapon it may not be outlawed by that treaty.

The probably should be a treaty to limit the use of WP, since it is a particularly gruesome weapon, comparable to that of actual chemical weapons.

[Warren Stupidity]

15. It is banned when use as an incendiary device.

A wp bomb is a banned weapon. Tracer shells are also wp but are not banned.

[Ms. Clio]

48. funny how you never get replies from the willfully ignorant

oh, the facts, how they burn. Right to the bone.

[geek tragedy]

18. It's a war crime if they use it on civilian-heavy target areas.

What matters is where they used it.

[Scurrilous]

16. Meanwhile...

Lebanese security: 12-year-old killed by cluster bomb in south

<snip>

"A cluster bomb exploded Sunday, killing a 12-year-old boy and wounding his younger brother in a southern Lebanese village, Lebanese security officials said.

Rami Ali Hussein Shibly and his brother, Khodr, 9, where picking olives in their family's grove in Halta when the cluster bomb exploded, said the security officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they are not authorized to speak to the media.

The United Nations and human rights groups have accused Israel of firing as many as 4 million cluster bombs into Lebanon during its 34-day war with the militant group Hezbollah that ended in a UN-brokered cease-fire on August 14."

<snip>

"Sunday's death brings to at least 21 the number of people who have died in cluster bomb explosions in Lebanon since the war ended. More than 100 people have been wounded, according to the UN Mine Action Center."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/777908.html

[Warren Stupidity]

17. And the war crimes charges will be made when? nt.

[Barrett808]

19. Israel admits phosphorous bombing

Israel has for the first time admitted it used controversial phosphorous bombs during fighting against Hezbollah in Lebanon in July and August.

Cabinet minister Jacob Edery confirmed the bombs were dropped "against military targets in open ground".

Israel had previously said the weapons were used only to mark targets.

Phosphorus weapons cause chemical burns and the Red Cross and human rights groups say they should be treated as chemical weapons.

The Geneva Conventions ban the use of white phosphorous as an incendiary weapon against civilian populations and in air attacks against military forces in civilian areas.

(more)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6075408.stm

[LordLovesAWorkingMan]

20. Moral high ground vacated, permanently.

I am a supporter of the state of Israel, but this is cruelty topped with hypocrisy. If anyone, anywhere attacked Israel with such weapons, they would invoke the Holocaust and unleash a horribly disproportionate response.

There is no excuse, none.

[whistle]

22. Sixty years of non-stop war has driven Israel insane....

...a consequence the United States can look forward to if it continues the BushCo and neoconservative policies of non-stop global war.

[mod mom]

21. Reminiscent of Fallujah-Why do they hate our freedom?

[mod mom]

23. from the article:

"The Geneva Conventions ban the use of white phosphorous as an incendiary weapon against civilian populations and in air attacks against military forces in civilian areas."

Oh that's right, the Geneva Conventions are a quaint relict from pre-911.

[Laughing Mirror]

24. Your tax dollars at work

Bringing democracy to the middle east

[Tom Joad]

26. Someone had to say that. Yet we will be accused of not

"minding our own business" and being told "You have no reason to get involved" in this... usual ignorant blather.

It is very important we are concerned about this. It is US policy as much as Israel policy.

[Tom Joad]

25. US Tax dollars at work. It is very important that we end military

aid to any country that uses US military aid to attack civilians.

Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon announced on Israeli army radio, "All those in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah."

There is no doubt this was used to target civilians. Haim Ramon saw anyone in south Lebanon as the enemy.

[stillcool]

27. Fallujah.

http://www.brusselstribunal.org/survey111105.htm
Survey of violations:

1. Crimes of War and Crimes Against Humanity

- First crime:

Some of the ugliest crimes committed by the occupation forces and by Iraqi military units are the ones committed in the city of Fallujah in the battles of November 2004, and which we summarize in the following:

1. The plundering of health care centers and their destruction by bombing as has taken place in the "Taleb Al-Janabi" hospital and in the Central Clinic. Further the Central Hospital was occupied; the staff and everyone in the hospital at that time were arrested. Ambulances in the city have been bombed and the rescue teams were hindered from entering the city, among them the convoy of the Ministry of Health, despite of the fact that more than 50,000 civilians still remained in the city.

2. Internationally prohibited weapons were used in the bombing of the city, such as phosphoric weapons, Napalm, bombs containing unknown gases, causing the blood to explode out of bodies. 24 carbonized bodies have been found in the area of the military neighbourhood. Surviving civilian eyewitnesses stated that the soldiers of the occupation forces entered the area wearing gas masks. Furthermore, cases of deformed newly born increased as a consequence of the use of such weapons. In a press conference, which took place during the battle, Mr. Khaled Al-Sheikhali, official of the Ministry of Health, confirmed the use of such weapons.

[Joanne98]

28. The US used it in Iraq too. BUT Bush will NEVER admit it because

HE IS A LIAR!

[Lars39]

29. This should have stayed in LBN.

[anotherdrew]

30. yes it should have n/t

[Poll_Blind]

31. There are the written rules and there is what actually happens. n/t

PB

[Lars39]

33. True.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrBlix]

34. DU Dungeon

Found out awhile back that DU has a 911 dongeon.
This past few days I found out DU has other dongeons, tried to access 300 killed in arsenal attack Iraq.....gone to some dongeon. Then I attempted to access Hastert article about suitcases of money........couldn't get that either.
.
I have to think I am doing something wrong here, though I did search many DU groups looking for them.
.
Oh awhile back there was a "V" For Vendetta thread that had 162 postings "greatest" suddenly that disappeared.
.
Is there so much traffic on DU that these important threads are buried in order to make room for more not so important articles.
.
Oh no silly me please forgive me I've just been reading DU for more than 5 years don't post much and yes I have to admit I'm a bit lacking in knowhow when it comes to posts and topic groups.
.
But it does seem a pity during an election that we have to go digging to get pertinent info to keep up the good fight doesn't it..

[elehhhhna]

35. the Hastert thread is back w/ diff. links. Check the greatest page.

I understand not wanting to carry threads from crazytown or unreliable links but why this one?

[cui bono]

36. I would like to see that 300 Americans killed thread... tried to but it

was gone. !

Can you tell me where it went or what it was about?

[cui bono]

37. What up with that? So why aren't all the Iraq war threads moved to an

Iraq forum?

[Name removed]

39. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cui bono]

38. Now I can't recommend this thread? That's a bunch of bull crap!!!

[Flabbergasted]

40. Israel admits it used phosphorus weapons

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1929007,00.html

Conal Urquhart in Tel Aviv
Monday October 23, 2006
The Guardian


The Israeli government has admitted that it used controversial phosphorus weapons in its attacks against targets during its month long war in Lebanon this summer.
The chemical can be used in shells, missiles and grenades and causes horrific burning when it comes into contact with human flesh.

White phosphorus (WP) weapons are not forbidden by international law but some human rights groups believe they should be re-classified as chemical weapons and banned.

(WP is forbidden from being used in civilian areas or as a weapon)

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[enid602]

42. US

I don't think the US government has ever admitted it used WP in Fallujah.

[Ms. Clio]

44. yes, it did n/t

[Englander]

51. From November '05;

'Iraq probes US phosphorus weapons

>snip

The US has now admitted using white phosphorus as a weapon in Falluja last year, after earlier denying it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4442156.stm

[peacetalksforall]

43. Kick for the shame of it. nt

[TerdlowSmedley]

45. Is "Shake 'n' Bake" considered kosher?

[Sven77]

46. is phosphorus

considered hate speech ?

[DrBlix]

50. Is Israel using

Dense Inert Metal explosives (DIME)
.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1924675,00.html

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Stockholm]

53. Sad disgusted kick n/t

[dipsydoodle]

54. Additional link :

However, the third protocol of the Geneva Convention on Conventional Weapons restricts the use of "incendiary weapons," with phosphorus considered to be one such weapon.

Israel and the United States are not signatories to the Third Protocol.

http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID={31AD19FB-D85F-4334-B4CB-40BF8E6A8380})&language=EN

x(

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Javaman]

56. But then this is announced....

Haaretz: Poll: 81% of U.S. Jews believe Arabs want to destroy Israel

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=777950&contrassID=1&subContrassID=1

Irony...