'Hamas doesn't want to destroy Israel' (EU Foreign Policy Chief Javier Solana)

[Stockholm]

Snip

In an interview following his talks in Tel Aviv with Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, Solana insisted that it was "not impossible" for Hamas to change and "recognize the existence of Israel." History had shown that people and nations "adapt to reality," he said. "I don't want to lose hope."

Pressed as to whether he was underestimating the fundamentalist religious imperative at the heart of the Hamas ideology, Solana said, "I cannot imagine that the religious imperative, the real religious imperative, can make anybody destroy another country... Therefore that is an abuse of religion...

"I don't think the essence of Hamas is the destruction of Israel. The essence of Hamas is the liberation of the Palestinians," he added. "The liberation of their people, not the destruction of Israel."

snip

Quoting former US secretary of state James Baker, he added, "To talk to your enemy is not appeasement."


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1161811213704&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

:thumbsup:

[papau]

1. LOL - sadly and softly - Amazing delusion/wishful thinking - IMHO n/t

n/t

[Stockholm]

3. Or expressing an understanding of the underlying issues?

After 9/11 the US, EU and other went overboard dividing the world into nice little comprahensible squares such as terrorlists, axis of evil, black lists etc.

Hamas should never have been put on the EU "terror list" after pressure from the US. It stopped Israel and the International community from exploring a fantastic opportunity in the middle east. The election win of Hamas.

The palestinians did not elect Hamas based on their stance against Israel, they elected Hamas because they were frustrated and disappointed with Fatah. That could have been used as a foundation to build on.

Regarding his views on Islam and fundamentalists I also agree, since no one would argue that GWB or Pat Robertson represent Christianity?

[streamlake]

5. Hamas is a terrorist organization

I lost a very close friend in cold blood in a hamas suicide bombing. One at hebrew university. A bombing in a university cafeteria. If that had happened in the uk it would be known as a huge event. When it happens in Israel no one remembers.

Just last week hamas foreign minister zahar said israel should move to europe.

Hamas is now even thinking of attacking american interests in the middle east because of their support of israel.

Hamas killed 3 u.s bodyguards for a diplomat in gaza.

Hamas has bombed passoverdinners, pizza shops, night clubs, restaurants, shot up families leaving services.

My mom lost a friend who was killed in cold blood with her four daughters in their car in cold blood. Hamas called it a heroic act. They shot at close range a baby.

Hamas hired a ruthless terrorist for their security force.

Look up all the hamas attacks from 1994-2006. They have tried to bomb petro chemical plants, tried to place truck bombs under skyscrapers.

Hamas brutally beats up fatah journalists. Their security militia just killed a crowd of fatah supporters. They assasinate top fatah leaders. They burn down churches because of the pope.


You hamas supporters HAVE NEVER experienced a bombing from them. Could you imagine if someone blew up a university in the u.s and solana would praise al queda. Hamas wants every jew dead.

Hamas killed my friends in cold blood. Anyone that supports hamas has no idea what it is like having your friends killed. Those people have never experienced a suicide belt with thousands of nails killing their friends.

Hamas uses retarted kids to be suicide bombers. They are sick group. They teach kids in schools to be suicide bombers. They are disturbed. The burn down ymca's.

They are the most far right radical theocratic group but some so called progressives like them because they want israel destroyed. That is utter hypocricy.

Hamas's statements the last few weeks have been one after another that we will never ever accept any israeli state from the med sea to the jordan river. Hamas kills american jews visiting tel aviv and calls them zionist pigs. They are anti semitic. Hamas, hezbollah, iran the islamist power want israel gone. They want right of return a vote and israel gone. If they can't get that they will do it by force. Right now hamas is firing rockets trying to hit petro chemical plants in israel. They have imported chemical weapons.

Solana has never lost anyone from hamas so it is easy for him to love them.

[streamlake]

6. List of hamas attacks since 2000

This isn't even counting the attacks in the 90's

http://info.jpost.com/C002/Supplements/CasualtiesOfWar/ look at the all the hamas attacks and their victims

Solana should have to see this list that israel hater. That would be like israel praising the group that hit the trains in spain.

Hamas raids a house kills babies in their cribs and calls it heroic act.

But they are jews and they don't count. If you do something in uk everyone recognizes the anniversary but if you kill jews the eu doesn't care.

[papau]

14. I agree as to reason Hamas won election - but Hamas is terrorist by its own words

and it wants the death of all jews and the end of Israel - again by the words of its leaders.

Granted there are two "Hamas"

A more reasonable one in Gaza/West Bank, and a more extreme one in Syria. But the West Bank Hamas fear the popularity of the Syrian leaders with the Hamas "base" (the folks that carry guns everywhere).

The prisoners are a third force - sounding a bit like the Syrian Hamas as they "agree" with "peace" so as to get a West Bank/Gaza free of Israel - but a peace only until they are ready to wipe out every Jew and destroy Israel.

Our EU friend is hoping they do not mean what they say. I hope he is correct,

But if you were Israeli, or if you supported a two state solution that actually meant peace, would place your hopes on Hamas not meaning what ir says?

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[razors edge]

2. unfortunately when it comes to

"The liberation of their people, not the destruction of Israel." they will get neither and be told to like it. And as for the Palestinians, the beatings will continue until moral improves, as usual.

[breakaleg]

4. I thought this was a great article. Solana seemed calm and

insightful and gave a much needed view on this situation.

And then the first comment I read was someone saying he was an idiot.

Anyway, we need more politicians to speak out along the same vein.

[streamlake]

8. Pictures of children killed by hamas

They call this heroic. After all their crime was being a jew. Fellow americans were killed here.

Lots of rachels killed by hamas too. But they are jews and solana doesn't care.

http://daledamos.blogspot.com/2006/08/123-israeli-children-killed-by.html

Every israel basher should see these faces and then how hamas calls it heroic acts.

Shooting up families leaving services hamas calls it heroic act.

bombing a university a heroic act.

bombing a restaurant a heroic act.

This is a sick group like the zazi's who should be blacklisted instead solana praises groups that kills because you are a jew.

[breakaleg]

9. I've noticed that your replies to many posts often have nothing to

do with the post directly and don't respond to it in any way. It seems as if you are here simply to stand on a soap box and say your peice and you choose to do so randomly under the guise of responding to other people's words.

If you have something to say, then why not make your own thread?

[streamlake]

10. It is appalling

In this day and age to have people that praise a group that is zazi like. They kill american jewish babies sitting in a cafe in tel aviv and then call it a heroic act and those babies are zionist pigs.

The hamas supporters of today come from the same fabric of hitler supporters. They both love groups that kill people because they happen to be jews. A jewish baby in a restaurant blown up by a suicide bomb with nails is a zionist pig.


Hamas is sick. Their society is sick. They use retarted kids for suicide bombings. They teach 5 years old in their textbooks to be suicide bombers. They teach in schools to kill the jews with the big ears and big noses.

They are a sick culture like the nazi's. They brutally take care of reporters that praise fatah.

These hamas supporters are as bad as hitler's supporters.

[breakaleg]

12. Again, if you'd like to rant and rave about things not related to my post,

then create one of your own.

[John Gauger]

16. Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.

"It is sweet and fitting to die for one's country." I don't see what the difference is between teaching your children that it's okay to blow up babies in a cafe and teaching your kids that it's okay to fly a plane and drop bombs on innocents, which may include babies in a cafe. There is nothing wrong with Palestine that is not also wrong with America. Being a fighter pilot or a bombardier is seen as very glorious in this country. There are movies about it. Howard Zinn, who was a bombardier himself in WWII, says that nothing can justify the dropping of bombs. I grieve just as much for those killed in Israel by suicide bombers as any other victim or murder. I don't like those crimes any more than you do, and I would question anybody here supports that kind of behavior. But that is not a reason not to deal with them. The United States government is also a terrorist organization. It is the only country every to be condemned by the World Court for acts of terrorism. Yet Israel deals with the US government.

What's more, Israel is trying to destroy Palestine. They do not recognize the legitimacy of a Palestinian state (they violate its sovereignty by illegally occupying its territory) and they are attempting to drive the Arabs out of Israel just as Hamas is trying to drive the Israelis out of Israel. There are equally deplorable, and neither one is right.

[cali]

18. Oh, please

your rhetoric is sooo over the top. I'm not a fan of Hamas, but you work with what you have, and let's face it, the Israelis have killed far more Palestinians than Hamas has killed Israelis. Your kind of steaming rhetoric, in post after post after post, does not serve the cause of rational discussion about I/P anymore than the ravings of some others here about Israel. Palestinians are suffering. The cause of peace is suffering. People like you do nothing but throw flames on the fire.

[streamlake]

11. Progressives that are Hamas supporters are hypocrites

Hamas is the most far right islamic group you could get. They are anti gay, anti freedom of the press.

For so called progressives to support this far far right group screams of hypocricy. But they both don't like the people they are targeting so who cares if they are fundies.

[Behind the Aegis]

7. Solana should read the Hamas charter, then get back to us. n/t

[Igel]

13. Solana is too ethnocentric to be allowed to

be a diplomat. Not everybody on earth makes the same set of assumptions. Not everybody has the same definitions of dignity, honor, and humiliation. To not recognize that is, at least in this case, to out-pollyana Pollyana.

[pelsar]

17. is he so ignorant?

"I don't think the essence of Hamas is the destruction of Israel. The essence of Hamas is the liberation of the Palestinians," he added. "The liberation of their people, not the destruction of Israel."

perhaps he didnt understand the explanations he was given....Hamas version of "liberation" is in place of israel....or hasnt he been listening to the various Hamas statements in both English and Arabic?

funny thing is that even though hamas hasnt learned to "doublespeak yet (one version in english, one in arabic) people like him are "putting words in their mouths"...trying to teach them to "say the right words"

and even when hamas doesnt do it.....then people like him just make it up for them (they must thing were ALL fools!)

[benEzra]

19. Charter of Hamas (1988):

I normally stay out of these discussions because I do see the grievances on both sides, but Hamas needs to revise its own charter if the statements in the OP are to be taken seriously, IMHO.

The 1988 Hamas charter reads like a committee document, with portions sounding very fair and moderate, but there are portions that do indeed call for the state of Israel to be wiped out and for people of Jewish ethnicity to be killed.

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

Hamas Charter (1988)

The Charter of Allah: The Platform of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)

(excerpts follow)

"Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors."

"The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it. No Arab country nor the aggregate of all Arab countries, and no Arab King or President nor all of them in the aggregate, have that right, nor has that right any organization or the aggregate of all organizations, be they Palestinian or Arab, because Palestine is an Islamic Waqf throughout all generations and to the Day of Resurrection."

" initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: “Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware.” From time to time a clamoring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that condition, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed. Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam."

I'm sure there are moderates in Hamas, but there is enough hard-line influence that they haven't revised their charter yet.

[pelsar]

20. moderate in Hamas?...

that would be like saying that there are moderates in the Christianity Evangelical movement. Either you believe in the "base of your god given right" or your not in the movement.

Hamas, like the Taliban, like Iran govt are fanatical religious movments by their own definition.....their moderates would not be definition fit anywhere near the western concept of "moderates"

[benEzra]

21. I'm not talking about the leadership...

but was thinking of those doing the humanitarian work, and those who would like to peacefully coexist with Israel. I'm sure there are those--Hamas is a big group, and they did just win a majority in an election, which means that they must have some moderate support.

And yes, there are moderate Evangelical Christians, too. Believing that God wants you to live a certain way doesn't mean you believe that God wants you to compel everyone else to live that way at gunpoint--and that could be said of moderate Muslims, Christians, and everyone else.

Militancy in religion isn't defined by how you think you should live your own life; it's defined by whether or not you think you have a mandate to compel others to live by your beliefs, or else.

[pelsar]

22. its the leadership that counts....

i'm sure in Afganistan under the taliban there were talibanites who werent so extreme......and so too under iran today....but it doesnt help a whole lot now does it?


fanatics such as those in the leadership of Hamas have made it very clear what they believe.....and its being played out in gaza where they control sections.....
the problem with fanatics is that they have no problem with turning their guns on their "own" when they go astray....and which keeps the others in line.

[benEzra]

23. True. (n/t)