Report: PM orders killing of Hamas MPs

[ECH1969]

In order to stop the firing of Kassam rockets from the Gaza Strip, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has ordered his security chiefs to target the Hamas political leadership, the British Sunday Times newspaper reported on Sunday.

The Times said that according to Israeli security sources, a decision to assassinate leading Hamas politicians was made by Olmert and Defense Minister Amir Peretz.

According to the report, Israel was determined to ensure the political leadership in Gaza, the West Bank and abroad would "no longer escape responsibility" for the rocket attacks.

Kassam rockets have rained down on Israel on a regular basis even after the IDF's withdrawal from Gaza, recently forcing Sderot schools to strike and a mass evacuation of youngsters from the town.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1162378429724&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[mike_c]

1. if this is true it is an international crime of monstrous proportions....

Round up the mayor and the village council, and shoot them in the square.

[aquart]

2. Waiting for your condemnation of the rockets raining on Israeli towns.

.......still waiting.

Guess that's not a crime, eh?

[mike_c]

4. that's an utterly irrelevant point....

First, rockets aren't "raining down on Israeli towns." The effectiveness of Palestinian rockets is probably on the order of 1 percent or less. But that's rather beside the point because the Palestinians are the ones with legitimate grievances. It's Palestinians who are defending themselves against overwhelming oppression, not Israelis. It's Palestinians who are struggling against apartheid and genocide. You tell me-- if you were subjected to the treatment the Palestinians have suffered, would you resist? I would.

There is a terrible asymmetry of force in operation. The Palestinians resist by whatever means possible, usually by rather primitive and self-lethal means. The Israelis slaughter them by the dozens in retaliation, using modern military weapons systems, largely against unarmed civilians. Pardon me for not feeling a great deal of guilt about those homemade rockets.

[Boston Critic]

19. Shall we fire missiles at your home?

If only "1%" succeed in killing people, will that be okay with you?

The hypocrisy of those who defend Hamas's terror campaign is breathtaking.

[mike_c]

25. if I'm oppressing you the way that Israel oppresses the Palestinians...

...then yes, by all means defend yourself.

[Boston Critic]

29. But Israel isn't oppressing the Palestinians

If only the Palestinians would stop trying to KILL Israelis and move to live in peace with them, nothing would make Israelis happier than negotiating a disengagement from most of the West Bank. But the Palestinians take every Israeli concession as a sign of weakness and then, giving up nothing, demand more. What was their payment for leaving Gaza? Missile attacks, and a Hamas government that says they refuse to recognize or make peace with Israel, going so far as to deny the validity of all past agreements.

The Palestinians are their own worst enemies.

[mike_c]

33. "Israel isn't oppressing the Palestinians?!"

Wow. I don't know what to say. That is just about the deepest sense of denial I have ever encountered.

[Boston Critic]

34. Sorry you're so misinformed

I realize that there's a tiny contingent on the far left that prefers to demonize Israel. (Hint: if you freely use the word "apartheid" and make blithe comparisons to the Nazis you're one of them.)

But, no, it is the Palestinians who oppress themselves. They could have had their own state as far back as 1948. They threw their lot in with the other Arab rejectionists. Their Arab brothers didn't bother to give them a state when they "occupied" Gaza and the West Bank (although that word was never used between 1948 and 1967) and would even let them out of the refugee camps. Since then they've pursue violence and terror, and repeatedly walked away from negotiations that might have led to their own state.

When last year Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, leaving behind greenhouses and equipment that could have been used to kick start the Palestinian economy, the Palestinans wrecks and looted those greenhouses, and began launching unprovoked missile attacks on Israeli civilians.

I know there are people with other agendas who prefer to blame Israel for the Palestinians repeatedly refusing to do the right thing, but I find such attitudes racist. It's treating the Palestinians as children incapable of rational thought, who must be excused their every excess. (There are people who dismiss concern the Qassam missile attacks because they are "inaccurate." Now *that* is denial.)

If you truly care about the Palestinians, tell them to reject terror, recognize Israel, and negotiate in good faith. There are plenty on the Israeli side ready to listen, but when all they hear is Hamas saying no recognition and no peace, what are they to do?

[Violet_Crumble]

43. Of course the Palestinian people are oppressed...

While all yr interested in is blaming the Palestinians for everything under the sun and labelling any shred of criticism aimed at Israel as demonisation, those who can look at the conflict rationally are quite aware that the Palestinian people are being oppressed. Or are those illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank, attacks on Palestinians by extremist settlers, checkpoints where Palestinian civilians are humiliated, and attacks on olive groves just a figment of everyone's imaginations?

What I find bigoted is the comments in yr post that blame the entire Palestinian people for terrorism. What's also disgusting is the way you ignore facts and continue to cling to the RW nonsense of Gaza and the West Bank not being occupied territory. It is no more 'disputed' than East Timor was...

[Boston Critic]

44. You pile error upon error

1. I do no blame the Palestinians for everything under the sun. Your absurd defense of Palestinian terrorists are not *their* fault.

2. Nor do I label "any shred of criticism" of Israel as "demonization." Indeed, I've noted that Israelis themselves criticize their government all the time. Indeed *Arab* citizens in Israel are freer to exercise such political rights than they would be under the PA, in Syria, Saudi Arabia, or anywhere else in the Middle East.

3. The Palestinians are definitely being "oppressed." But it is by their own leaders. Arafat robbed them of millions in aid dollars and did little to help build the local economy or infrastructure.

4. The tiny minority of Israeli settlers who attack local Palestinians are not only NOT acting on behalf of the government, but they are widely condemned by Israeli society AND they are subject to prosecution under Israeli law.

5. No one has the right to freely enter another country without restriction. If Palestinians need to enter Israel for employment, and face hardship at such checkpoints, they should urge their elected leaders to end their terrorism campaign. If the missiles and suicide bombers would stop, there would no need for such strict checkpoints or the security fence.

6. Since you are whitewashing Palestinian complicity in terrorism, please cite three or four news articles where prominent Palestinian leaders condemned attacks on Israel, moved to act to disarm and/or arrest the terrorists, and didn't laud the terrorists as heroes and "martyrs." This shouldn't be difficult. It's sort of the minimum expected of a civilized society.

7. And of course the borders of a future Palestinian state remain disputed, as does the sovereignty of any such land, since the last time there was a sovereign state there was more than 2000 years ago.
This is basic history.

[Violet_Crumble]

47. The errors are all yrs...

Yr posts are proof that you blame the Palestinians for everything under the sun. Also, I do not defend Palestinian terrorists - I pointed out that the Palestinian people are oppressed by Israel and explained why. Do you often see the palestinian people and Palestinian terrorists as one and the same?

Every time anyone utters the slightest criticism of israeli policy you either accuse them of supporting terrorists or fly into torrents of abuse. So, yes, you do label any shred of criticism of Israel as demonisation....

Why is it that you insist on repeating the same tired out bullshit about sovereignty when it has been pointed out to you time and time again that East Timor wasn't a sovereign state, yet it was definately occupied by Indonesia and the same goes for Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza? Or will you just ignore this question and pretend you didn't see it?

[Boston Critic]

56. The same tired old B.S.

You simply have nothing of substance to say. Your antipathy towards Israel is long noted. Other than that, you repeat the same propaganda talking points and evade any substantive discussion.

[Tom Joad]

61. You are treated to Boston Critic response #8.

I figure he has a little shortcut set up where he can call up this written response repeatedly, with a simple click or two, or verbal command if he has voice software.

Saves typing.
Saves the work of thinking.
How efficient.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Joad]

66. What are you responding to?

[davidinalameda]

3. why not hold the politicians responsible for the attacks against Israel

they're allowing their towns to be staging grounds for these attacks

[htuttle]

5. Because if they kill the entire Hamas political leadership...

...they have no one left to negotiate with, and they'll have to deal with the equivalent of a dozen disconnected, pissed off "Real IRA's" running around.

But hell, I don't freakin' live there -- they can suit themselves, I guess. What you reap is what you sow...

[Boston Critic]

20. They've got that now

The PA has refused to deal with any of the terrorist organizations among them, including the official branches of Hamas and the PLO. Abbas, the coward, said to live up to the agreements the PA has ALREADY MADE would lead to civil war.

So why do you think the current leadership of Hamas -- or Abbas -- are someone with whom to negotiate?

[mike_c]

6. you know perfectly well that the politicians who will be targetted...

...have little or no direct control over such day-to-day tactical aspects of the anti-apartheid struggle as when and where homemade rockets will be launched. This is just more collective punishment, the hallmark of Israeli brutality.

[Behind the Aegis]

7. so basically, they are useless to negoiate with because...

...they "have little or no direct control over such day-to-day tactical aspects of the anti-apartheid struggle as when and where homemade rockets will be launched."

Never anyone's fault but Israel. :eyes:

[davidinalameda]

9. well duh!

hey sweetie!

how are you

:hi:

[Behind the Aegis]

13. Doing GREAT!

A change of scene was well deserved! I love it here!

[mike_c]

10. yes, I think negotiations are useless until Palestinians begin to act...

...under a central authority. The problem is that when people are horribly oppressed, but their goverment lacks the will to orchestrate a coherent response, people of good conscience act independently. They struggle, they fight. Government is left behind, relegated to press conferences and public relations.

No government will speak for Palestians until all are united for a common purpose. You know this. As long as the government is flailing for a coherent national mission, the people will act independently and their government will not speak for them. People will simply fight their oppressors.

[Behind the Aegis]

14. There are so many things wrong with that post.

I think the biggest thing is that you seem to think those resisting Israel are "...people of good conscience (who) act independently." Terrorists are NOT people of good conscience! As for having a "common purpose," I think most of us know what that is.

[Violet_Crumble]

49. And what would that be?

As for having a "common purpose," I think most of us know what that is.

Why don't you tell most of us what that is?

[htuttle]

11. If so, doesn't that also mean it's also pointless to kill them?

...except that it will piss a lot more people off?

:shrug:

[Behind the Aegis]

12. One would think.

I don't agree with targeted killing. But, I also don't agree with terrorists being portrayed as 'freedom fighters" of the oppressed, when they are just as oppressive as the group they are fighting.

[IntiRaymi]

15. That's right. Israel is at fault.

It comes with having power, means, and the wealth.
It is known as responsibility.

[Behind the Aegis]

16. responsibility is a two-way street!

[IntiRaymi]

41. Agreed, but only in one situation:

That the street is a symmetric one.

[davidinalameda]

8. what anti-apartheid struggle

homemade rockets?

please provide some support for your very interesting comments

[IntiRaymi]

40. Please clarify why you find them 'interesting'.

[davidinalameda]

42. I just do

I love it when people post stuff on here that we're supposed to take as gospel without any proof to back it up

[Violet_Crumble]

48. Ah, that explains yr fondness for bta!

;)

[IntiRaymi]

53. Those reasons do not justify the 'interesting' comment.

[Violet_Crumble]

54. No, they don't...

If Dwickham were honestly interested, I could explain to them why the situation in the West Bank especially is reminiscent of apartheid, but I'm not knowledgable enough about Qassams to know about how or where they're manufactured. anyway, if Dwickham does need an explanation of apartheid, I'm quite happy to do so...

[Boston Critic]

65. No one cares about your misunderstanding of apartheid...

... particularly since Arab citizens of Israel enjoy more freedom than Arab citizens of ANY other nation in the Middle East.

They can vote, speak out, elect their own represenatives to the Knesset, and Arab women have the same rights as well.

The contrast between what you're defending and the *freedom* and *democracy* in Israel could not be more striking. Indeed, anyone without a politcal agenda to push would acknowledge that Israel does not engage in anything even remotely resembling apartheid.

And those who argue otherwise mark themselves as unreliable sources.

[davidinalameda]

55. didn't realize that I had to justify my comments

sorry if it doesn't meet your standards

[IntiRaymi]

60. Sometimes, certain comments should be justified.

Especially ones that are meant for intimidation.

[davidinalameda]

67. so "interesting" is intimidating?

how about fascinating instead?

[davidinalameda]

59. I'm still waiting for you to support your statements

anything?

[breakaleg]

17. This is state sactioned murder. Why isn't it called murder when Israel does it?

[dubykc]

18. Not just murder, its assassinations!!

[Boston Critic]

21. Actually, it's called war

When your civilians are under attack by "militants" operating under the authority of an opposing goverment, why should that opposing government be immune from responsibility for their actions.

You sound like the British military leaders during the American Revolution complaining that the patriots were targeting the *officers* in battle.

[breakaleg]

23. Give me a break. These are the elected leaders and Israel doesn't like

it and they plan to kill them. Talk about sore losers.

[Boston Critic]

30. These elected leaders...

... are sending their armed factions out to KILL Israeli civilians. Now you're whining because Israel is fighting back?

This isn't a game. It's about Israel fighting for its very existence.

[breakaleg]

39. Whining? Can't you pretend to be civil or must personal attacks invade

all of your posts?

[Boston Critic]

45. Who called who a "sore loser?"

Give ME a break.

[breakaleg]

50. I called Israel a sore loser... as in not liking the government

that Palestinians elected so now they want to mix things up a bit until they get one that is to their liking.

[Boston Critic]

57. So you really don't know anything about the Middle East

Israel isn't a "sore loser." They are faced with an elected government that:

* refuses to recognize their right to exist

* refuses to acknowledge any past agreements between Israel and the PA

* refuses to negotiate a just, secure peace but only "hudnas" so they can rearm

No, Israel isn't a sore loser. They're seeing the situation quite clearly.

And anyone pretending otherwise is wearing blinders.

[lastknowngood]

22. Murder by remote control is not justice or conventional war it is terrorism

The Israelis have been conducting an systematics extermination of any leadership in the Palestinian territories for generations. They also have never negotiated in good faith.The Palestinians are throwing rocks at tanks, Israelis are using rockets from helicopters and tanks. Their intent is the extermination of anyone but the passive slaves to work in their industry. The Palestinians are the slave class for the Israelis they do all of the manual labor and are the servants, though the African immigrants are now helping fulfill this role.

Without effective leadership in Palestine there will never be peace. Understand that a suppressed people will find a way to resist. The Israelis want to pick the leadership for the Palestinians, which means that leadership will not be recognize by the people. As long as Israel determines who the leadership is in Palestine, nothing will change except the level of violence.

What is needed is a strong legitimate leader for Palestine but Israel will never let one live long enough to mature and gain the political strength to influence most of the people. Because that truly frightens them.

[msmcghee]

24. Despite your admonition to . .

"Understand that a suppressed people will find a way to resist."

Such lofty, self-important words are ignorant of actual history. They make it sounds like you have some understanding of the history of violent conflict in the world.

The actual truth of history is that once people or nations resort to armed conflict and start killing each other in significant numbers - it soon reaches a tipping point where the level of hate is high enough that the only way it will end is when very large numbers of people die and one or both sides finally have no more will or enough weapons to fight on.

A suppressed people, if sufficiently suppressed, will eventually bury their dead and those who are still alive will find a way to look at the world differently than they did previously. Throughout Europe, the Americas and on every continent - there are nations living now peacefully with their neighbors - but only after vast numbers of their people were decimated, nearly wiping them from existence. New cultures inevitably arise from the necessarily more pacifist remnants. Such genetic trimming is perhaps how humanity has managed to expand on this planet - so far.

This ancient order of things has changed a bit since 1947. Now the UN tries to step in before armed conflicts reach their natural denouement. A case could be made that ultimately, such efforts are counterproductive in that they will produce more deaths spread out over a longer "limited war" than would have occurred if the conflict had been allowed to run its course earlier. And such efforts indescriminately preserve the more warlike in the genetic pool.

As far as that is true, I'd say that the I/P conflict could be a case in point. Every time Israel was attacked she defeated her enemies fairly quickly - but agreed to UN demands to stop before more thoroughly destroying her attackers - in the name of peace and hoping for better relations by showing some restraint.

I suspect it is finally becoming clear to Israel that such judicious moves could only work if the opponent is driven by some rational motives. Expressing some restraint with those whose hatred of your people and nation is part and parcel of their culture - where it is actually the organizing principle of their culture - is a Quixotic mission at best - probably suicidal in fact.

I think that Israel realizes they are not in Kansas any more.

[breakaleg]

26. 400 Palestinians dead in the last year compared to, say 20 Isaelis

is evidence of restraint to you?

I guess you don't feel that all people are equal, or perhaps Israelis are a little more equal than the rest of us.

[msmcghee]

27. C'mon, I was hoping you'd get serious about this

You just keep repeating the same discredited crap over and over.

When someone attacks you you are justified in using whatever amount of force is necessary to end the attacks.

The attacks on Israel have not ended. Apparently, the PA leadership believes that 400 dead aren't nearly enough for them to stop firing Kassams. It's their call - not Israel's. They could end the Israeli defensive operations immediately.

For Lebanon, it turned out to be about a thousand.

Will you ever actually offer a logical justification for your position? Are you even capable? This is getting boring.

[breakaleg]

28. Clearly we are coming at this from two different angles.

I still can't believe that anyone can defend Israel's actions when they kill hundreds or thousands of people in ANY operation, most especially Lebanon and that debacle.

And that whole "defense" crap is just that, crap.

[Boston Critic]

32. You're keeping score?

So if the Israelis were less efficient in stopping suicide bombers and other terrorists and more innocent civilians died so the "score" could be more even, you'd be happier?

The rationalizations of the anti-Israel crowd never ceases to amaze.

[breakaleg]

38. That's one way to look at it. But the other is if Israel stopped killing so many

Palestinians, the score would also be a little more even. This would be my preference - less Palestinians killed rather than more Israeli's killed. But it seems you prefer it the other way since you've mentioned this so many times.

[Boston Critic]

46. If you want to save Palestinian lives...

... tell them to renounce terrorism. Tell them to disarm the terrorists or otherwise arrest them. Tell them to move in legal authorities when the terrorists launch attacks from civilian areas instead of those leaders egging them on to kill more Israelis.

Israel is under attack. Why do you continue to give a pass to the terrorists who do the attacking?

[breakaleg]

51. Israel is under attack. We've heard it before. As as has been mentioned

many times, the success rate of the kassams is around 1%. So, if a 5 year old said they wanted to kill me, I think knowing their lack of real ability to carry out that threat, I'd feel quite safe. As are Israelis.

Palestinians on the other hand are not only under direct attack by missiles that actually hit their targets, they are in as much or more danger from the ones that "miss".

[Boston Critic]

58. So Palestinians firing missiles are merely children?

This may be the most absurd defense for Palestinian terrorism I've yet seen.

It also borders on racism, since it treats Arabs as too stupid to fight effectively and therefore you absolve these "five year olds" from any responsibility for their actions.

How condescendning.

How illiberal.

[breakaleg]

62. Get over yourself. As usual, you read into my posts what you want to see.

I'm talking about the actual ability to carry out any threats. Words don't kill people, bullets and missiles do. And Palestians don't have many of those. So they have no real ability to inflict the kind of casualties with their lame attempts the way Israel does with their "misses".

I find it incredulous that you can still stick to the defense crap when the facts don't bear that out. A handful of deaths in a year warrants hundreds murdered?

[Boston Critic]

63. Those who defend Palestinian terror

Have no right to call themselves liberal Democrats.

Look at the pathetic argument you are reduced to: they didn't kill as many innocent Israeli civilians as they would have liked. The missiles *targeted* to kill and maim civiilians are really ineffective.

I'm appalled that anyone could make such arguments in defense of out and out terrorism.

[Boston Critic]

31. You haven't posted a single true statement

The Palestinians have consistently gotten the leadership they wanted, from the kleptocrat terrorist Arafat to the extremists of Hamas.

Israel has consistently negotiated in good faith only to find, in the end, there was no one seriously interested in peace on the other side. Bill Clinton blamed Arafat for the collapse of the peace talks in 2000, who would not move ahead to a final negotiation for a permanent two state solution.

You can use all the propagandistic jargon you like. It doesn't make any of your false statements any more accurate.

[Tom Joad]

35. Such an order is an act of state Terror. Nothing unusual from Olmert.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Joad]

37. I just oppose this illegal, reckless proposal. No lives will be saved by this.

Nothing but more violence, death and destruction.

I support human rights and international law, that is the side i have chosen.

[bemildred]

52. None at all, exactly right.. It is pure desperation. nt