Say What? Anti-Semites? Who, us anti-Zionists? Us?

[cherryperry]

By Steven Plaut
September 2003


<snip>

Anti-Semitism is the hatred of Jews. Anti-Zionism is opposition to Zionism and Israeli policies. The two have nothing to do with one another. Venus and Mars. Night and Day. Trust us.

<snip>

We do not think the Jews are entitled to their own state and must submit to being a minority in a Rwanda-style "bi-national state", although no other state on earth, including the 22 Arab countries, should be similarly expected to be deprived of its sovereignty. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

We think that Israel's having a Jewish majority and a star on its flag makes it a racist apartheid state. We do not think any other country having an ethnic-religious majority or having crosses or crescents or "Allah Akbar" on its flag is racist or needs dismemberment. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.

<snip>

So how can you possibly say we are anti-Semites? We are simply anti-Zionists. We seek peace and justice, that's all. And surely that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such.


http://www.mideasttruth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=160

[bemildred]

1. I like this one:

http://www.mideasttruth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=134&sid=a75dd2d927125a34a1a4c6d2c9f141fa

Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:37 pm Post subject: Israel's Chief Enemy


But if Israel wants to defend itself, everyone ties their hands. WHY?????????
Phil,theres an easy answer for that....
The present prince of this world ,working thru his puppets in high places is hindering and thwarting Israel at every turn.
Satan knows his time is short, as is the time of mans government(rule) on earth,so he's fighting anything and everything God's is doing to bring
redemption to the earth thru Messiah and His rule from ZION.
Thats why settlments trouble Satan and Bush so much.
President Bush is the CHIEF ENEMY OF ZION.
Pay attention to his actions related to Israel and not his hollow words.
Keep in mind that it is a "christian"(lol) George Bush who has demanded the release of Palestinian terrorists from Israel prisons,the same fellow who
called Ariel Sharon when he planned to do harm against Arafat after the IDF surrounded the Mukatta in Ramallah last year.
Our great president came to Arafats rescue
and MADE Sharon promise not to harm Yasser.
There are many things this evil man is doing against Israel in secret that we don't hear about.
The big lie ,great deception is here folks and many many Christian do not see it.
I heard doublespeak from the prez today as he said some words for the cameras' just like the Palestinians are now putting on a good show for PR and
TV Camera's.
Mahamoud Abbas says after he gets permission from Arafat that he will crack down on the terrorists.
10 years after Oslo ,if you belive this you are hopelessly naieve.

I give it a couple of days before they're back on Israel's back demanding surrender restraint and retreat.......for the Bush peace (sob,cry)
I'm convinced that the Bush plan for Israel is just a rehash of Hitler's final solution.
The guy is so convincing with his puppy like sincerity.Debka has an article on the possible falling out between Sharon and Bush.
I see this as a very good development.
I wonder how many good ,well meaning Christian's in Germany voted for Adolph when he ran on a positive platform of reform ?

[mike_c]

2. repeating the same tired lies...

...doesn't make them true, no matter how elequently they're dressed up.

[liberalmuse]

3. What a piece of work...

Someone has a HUGE persecution complex. I absolutely abhor this kind of manipulative babblespeak.

I could care less if Israel gets their own state or not. I could care less if the residents of Israel are Jewish or not. I won't support the atrocities. No one is denying anyone's right to defend themselves, but it's good do clarify that defending oneself isn't hurding Palestinians into camps, bulldozing their houses and businesses, and shooting them like dogs.

[Resistance]

5. mideasttruth

is a propaganda site

[Jackie97]

15. Not defending mideasttruth...

but aren't they all propoganda sites?

[MariMayans]

16. three kinds of propaganda..

White propaganda=Facts presented in a very biased fashion.
Grey propaganda=A mix of facts and lies presented as one.
Black propaganda=complete disinformation

There is nothing wrong with white propaganda really, although mideasttruth's sister organization has created an artform out if it with it's unbiased looking MEMRI branch.

[Blitz]

7. "I could care less if Israel gets their (sic) own state or not"

Israel IS a State. And "they" finally have a homeland again. See if you can come around to at least acknowledging these simple truths.

[Muddleoftheroad]

18. One significant point

Israel ALREADY HAS A STATE.

[Andromeda]

51. Sorry to burst your bubble,

but Israel ALREADY HAS THEIR OWN STATE.

[Blitz]

4. Thank you

for posting this. This article is dead-on correct. Anti-semitism was dormant and unfashionable after the Holocaust but it never really left. Now it's coming back in fashion and the "anti-zionism" denials are ringing more and more hollow every day.

[Resistance]

6. distortion, misinformation, and lies

Anne Coulter would be proud of this load of crap

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MariMayans]

10. ..

:eyes:

[Blitz]

11. Assume much?

You know nothing about me or my sensibilities, MM. She didn't "piss me off" because she burned a flag. In point of fact, if someone asked me to do so, I would defend their right to burn a flag in a court of law. I may not agree with the sentiment expressed but I value the right of an American citizen to express it.

No, what I objected to with respect to the sainted Ms. Corrie is the fact that she supported and admired terrorists, the fact that she belonged to a terrorist supporting organization that harbored terrorists and hid their weapons for them, the fact that she died protecting a weapons smuggling tunnel (NOT a house, as is repeatedly and incorrectly claimed), the fact that she taught hate to a generation of children that some people in this world are trying to save from the cycle of hate (what message do you think she was conveying in the pictures shown above? love and tolerance for your fellow man, perhaps?), the fact that her stupidity and ego handed a propoganda coup to the murderers she supported and the fact that she brought so much pain to so many, not the least of whom is the poor man who drove the bulldozer that Saint Corrie stupidly chose to stand in front of.

So, have you ever given a thought to Abigail Litle, MM?

[Darranar]

12. My, my...

what a lie-filled post.

she died protecting a weapons smuggling tunnel

This has been debunked again and again and again.

As for the rest of the paragraph, I ask you to provide evidence to support any of it.

[drdon326]

32. Tsk, tsk,tsk...

she did die protecting smuggling tunnel.

Sorry to break it to you, but thats exactly what Saint Rachel
was protecting.

[Darranar]

39. Evidence?

Last i heard, that's junk.

[Jackie97]

111. I agree. I want evidence, and I want it now.

[Scurrilous]

72. Nice LGF Speak.

Saint Rachel is how they refer to Rachel Corrie at the ever-odious LGF. How odd to see their mocking tone mimicked here in this supposed 'progressive' forum.

The home Rachel Corrie was protecting belonged to Dr. Samir Nasrallah. His house was in the refugee town of Rafah, in southern Gaza. The Israeli government was in the process of constructing a wall in the vicinity of Rafah. This wall was intended to stretch the entire length of Gaza's border with Egypt. As part of this construction, the Israeli's decided to demolish all homes within 70-100 meters of the wall in order to provide a 'security strip' for the wall's defenders. This is why Dr. Nasrallah's home was torn down. It (along with some 600 others in Rafah) lay too close to Israel's security wall and thus had to go.

Dr. Nasrallah was charged with no offense prior to his home's demolition. If you have any proof he was smuggling weapons, I'd like to see it.

[Lithos]

88. Scurrilous

Check your inbox

Lithos
FA/NS Moderator
Democratic Underground

[MariMayans]

13. This is all garbage

Not one bit of what you have written was anything but an agitprop campaign that even Israel had to deny after they had floated it out.

You ever given a thought to where the former residents of Abigail Litle's neighborhood wound up after they were chased off at gunpoint?

[Gimel]

31. Remember your propaganda points?

This article is slanted truth. It can only be "white propaganda".

Blitz's post about Saint Corrie is the same. All of it is based on the facts. All of it could very well be true. Looking at the facts from a perspective not normally taken among her supporters, and in fact is one aspect of the truth of what did happen.

[MariMayans]

41. not so

It was a complete and deliberate lie that Israel finally had to disavow

[Gimel]

49. Tiny points

The propagandists easily disavow tiny points such as this. Read the Electronicintifada or other so-called "white propagandists".

[Violet_Crumble]

69. That was a tiny point??

Hell, the IDF withdrew a claim that a gun was found on the ISM premises and to you that's a tiny point?? Are you saying that the IDF didn't do this?

btw, what's a "white propagandist"? And how come yr always calling everything that doesn't agree with yr view 'propaganda' yet are so quick to heavily rely on very biased pro-Israeli sources yrself?

Violet...

[MariMayans]

73. a misunderstanding perhaps

I outlined the differences in white, grey and black propaganda earlier.

This incident falls under black propaganda and while I won't deny that Palestinians use the same sort of tactics I have never found them at EI.

[Gimel]

78. the most dangerous

As a regular reader of EI you must get a lot of the "white propaganda", which I ascribed to them, not the black. White is more dangerous, actually, because it presents accepted facts in a slanted manner. It distorts reality, and convinces the reader that it is good to oppose the accepted reality. It promotes Israel as the aggressor, the violator of human rights, and never even notices the Hamas and other terrorist actions. It puts the terrorists acts outside the entire issue, when in fact the terrorists are the very cental issue of the conflict.

[Violet_Crumble]

80. Explain how this works...

It distorts reality, and convinces the reader that it is good to oppose the accepted reality. It promotes Israel as the aggressor, the violator of human rights, and never even notices the Hamas and other terrorist actions.

So are Chomsky and Fisk producing white propaganda? Because both of them do notice the actions of groups like Hamas, but also point out that Israel is the aggressor due to it occupying territory in violation of international law, and that Israel does violate human rights. That's the accepted reality, not some twisted and distorted belief that terrorism can be used as a justification for violating international law and committing human rights violations...

What about Amnesty International? It speaks out against Israels agression and violation of human rights and speaks out against attacks on Israeli civilians. Are they white propaganda too?

Violet...

[Gimel]

85. I'm not rating the or assessing

That's up to the individual, or for a more comprehensive study. That would be a publication independent of a message board format.

[Violet_Crumble]

86. But you were so quick to assess EI...

Also, I didn't ask for some professional assessment, what I asked for was yr opinion. I'm not interested in someone else's opinion, I'm interested in yrs based on what you had to say about EI. You had an opinion on EI, so why not on the others I mentioned?

Violet...

[MariMayans]

91. That isn't black propaganda

Lying and issuing a statement that they were concealing a weapon is black propaganda. Arresting a man they happened to have given shelter to as a "terrorist" and then never charging him with anything and pretending they were knowingly harboring him is grey at best.

You would have to show me where EI intentially floated out a lie they knew was false to get into the same catagory.

[Violet_Crumble]

79. Yeah...

Sorry. I missed yr post back up there explaining the differences in propaganda...

I agree with you about this incident falling under black propaganda and also that I've never seen any black propaganda at EI the times I've read it either...

Violet...

[Gimel]

74. As its often acknowledged

it's all political, like the withdrawal of a statement. Now you suddenly accept the word of the IDF as sacrosanct?

What about the tunnel she was guarding? Didn't she know it was for arms smuggling?

For a definition of white propaganda see the post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=15968&mesg_id=16054&page=

[Violet_Crumble]

81. Sacrosanct?

I'm not one of those people who hold the bizarre belief that the IDF is being honest all the time or being dishonest all the time. There's a middle ground, and unless you can give some credible evidence for why withdrawing their statement wasn't because there actually wasn't a gun on the premises of a non-violent group, I'll take the withdrawal at face value. Y'know, like Bush's backtracking on his claim in the State of the Union Address that Saddam Hussein was trying to obtain uranium from Nigeria. Accepting that he'd backtracked on a falsehood doesn't make me believe everything he says is sacrosanct...

What about the tunnel she was guarding? Didn't she know it was for arms smuggling?

Thanks for the example of black propaganda. What tunnel, Gimel? She was trying to protect a house. This was covered by someone else in this thread so I assume you either ignored or didn't see the post. Read and learn. Ask questions, even :)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=15968#16935

While we're talking about the ISM, it's interesting when remembering posts from people suggesting that non-violence resistance would be the preferable way for the Palestinian people to respond. I totally agree with that, but I've wondered how successful or effective it would be. Seeing the almost frenzied attacks on ISM and its activists from some progressives on this forum, I kind of suspect that it wouldn't matter how non-violent Palestinian resistance became - Israel would still accuse them of terrorism anyway...

Violet...

[Gimel]

83. As an example of propaganda

you are attacking my statements, which were only an example of what white propaganda can do to the information. Please,Violet, reread this thread. You have again misunderstood my statements. I'm not interested in going through the whole Corrie incident again. I've participated very little in the 101 threads already posted on her. I'm not going to try and dig out information that you already know is incorrect.

[Violet_Crumble]

84. You gave an example of black propaganda, not white...

If you are insisting that she was protecting a tunnel used for arms smuggling, then yr a victim of black propaganda....

I think I was pretty clear with what I said about the IDF and what they say being considered sacrosanct. There's no need for me to go back and reread the thread yet again...

Hey, I wasn't aware that replying to a post and asking questions was considered to be attacking yr statements. To ensure you don't see future posts as attacking yr statements, is there some special way you'd like to be typed at when posting?

Violet...

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lithos]

25. Blitz

Please check your inbox.

Lithos
FA/NS Moderator
Democratic Underground

[mmm]

60. That post is PURE BS

WOW, cool. I don't see pure BS that often.
Can you try to get at least ONE fact straight?

[Jackie97]

110. There's no proof that ISM supports terrorism....

And ISM is currently trying to get an apology out of the Israeli government for saying so.

There's no proof that Corrie was defending the house of a terrorist. It's always assumed that it was the house of a terrorist. The truth is that it was the house of a physician. Furthermore, IDF doesn't just destroy terrorists' houses, they also destroy houses that happen to be near those terrorist houses. They also happen to be destroying houses that are maimed as "illegal". The land is usually used to build Jewish settlements. I also want to further state that in most other countries, they don't destroy the house of a criminal. They either capture the criminal and put them on trial or they kill the criminal in defense. What Israel likes to do sometimes is get their bad guy, and then punish his/her family for being his/her family by making them homeless. THAT'S NOT NORMAL FOR A COUNTRY TO DO.

[Fight_n_back]

27. Could you please

be more specific?

When black friends of yours tell you they thinl some of your ideas are insensitive is this how you react? Its kind of rude don't you think?

[realFedUp]

8. Moving to I/P forum

hiya cherryperry, this one is moving to Foreign Affairs.
rfu, moderator

[Jackie97]

17. Nails screeching down the windows of "mideasttruth".

Being registered for EZBoards, I was sorely tempted to go in there and give those people a piece of my mind, but I didn't.

Instead, I will address what I will politely call misconceptions.

First, there are different types of anti-Zionists. Not all of them condone attacks on Israeli civilians. Some of them might even condemn attacks on Israeli civilians.

Second, Israel is NOT the only country being singled out for criticism. The United States, South Africa, and other countries have also received sharp critism for some of the same things that Isreal does. Personally, I think I'll scream at the next person who claims that anti-Zionists and pro-Palestinians in general are singling out Israel because so many times, that is not the case.

Third, anti-Zionism is NOT anti-semitism. Perhaps being against the French in Canada having their own state is anti-French?

[MariMayans]

19. There is another situation similar to Israel/Palestine

The indigenous Sahrawi were ran out of Western Sahara into refugee camps in Algeria and colonized the same way by Morroco. I was very disappointed to see France acting like there was some merit to Morrroco's position recently, although I was unable to manage any suprise that the US fell in behind. If you want to say France is hypocritical and singles out Israel I say you could make a case (of course in the case of the Sahrawi's the land they want has oil under it and they are leftists so it isn't suprising).

[bemildred]

20. There was a story about Shrub "pressuring" Morroco,

today I think, and demands that Polisario release more prisoners.

The Security Council shows signs of actually doing something
about this eventually, although not anytime real soon now.

[MariMayans]

21. yeah, right..

Kerr McGee just got the oil contract for the place. That sort of quid pro quo doesn't go unappreciated in Dick Cheney's world.

[bemildred]

22. Tsk, so cynical and lacking in optimism.

Mary Poppins will not be pleased.

They got a settlement in Sudan, too, supposedly dividing
up the oil amicably.

Are the oil people for or against the King?

[MariMayans]

23. they love oil and autocratic rulers

We'll see how it plays out but I expect an election made up of Moroccan squaters and occupation soldiers with the least possible participation of the Sahrawis to formalize the annexation and everyone to call it a "peace plan" and POLISARIO to immediately hit the State Department's "terrorist" list.

[bemildred]

24. That would seem the way to bet, but interesting things are afoot:

http://www.democraticunderground.org/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=116&topic_id=307

(The MSNBC link no longer works.)


bemildred (1000+ posts)
Sat Jul-19-03 09:44 PM
Original message
Morocco wants no imposed solution on Western Sahara



Just found this. Morocco has been stalling for a long
time, and wants to continue. Phosphate and oil IIRC. It's
interesting that James Baker has his finger in this pie.

RABAT, July 16 - Morocco rejected on Wednesday any
attempt to impose a solution to its long-running dispute
with Polisario independence rebels over the fate of the
northwest African desert territory of Western Sahara.

A U.N. plan would give the sparsely populated but mineral rich
area seized by Morocco in 1975 immediate self-government and
schedule a referendum within five years for residents to choose
between independence, integration with Morocco or semi-autonomy.
''Morocco's position is clear: we refuse that any decision
pertaining to the sovereignty of the kingdom be imposed on us,''
Foreign Minister Mohamed Benaissa said in comments carried by the
official MAP news agency.

---

The Polisario's endorsement of the Baker plan last week was a
major shift in the stance of the Algerian-backed movement which
fought a guerrilla war with Morocco over the former Spanish colony for
15 years until a U.N. ceasefire in 1991.



One might still be able to find it by googleing.

[Aidoneus]

34. perhaps with suddenly discovered ties to al-Qaida to boot

..trading one shrill formula for another. I don't think that's claimed yet, but there was this in the Economist back in June:--

...Was Morocco's revelation this week of al-Qaeda's alleged plans to blow up British and American warships in the Strait of Gibraltar a payback for American support on Western Sahara?... baby steps?

[Gimel]

33. Singled out

This statement:

"The United States, South Africa, and other countries have also received sharp critism for some of the same things that Isreal does."

This is not only critcizing, but lumping Israel with two rich and powerful nations. But is it fair to Israel? It generalizes issues, and adds further to the anti-Israel sentiment.

The apartheid claim is far from proven, nor is the "racial basis" a fact.

[Jackie97]

36. Where should criticism apply?

This is not only critcizing, but lumping Israel with two rich and powerful nations. But is it fair to Israel?"

I think that to a point, it is. While Israel isn't very strong compared to certain nations such as the United States, they are very strong compared to their neighbors. They have proven nuclear weapons (that can't be proven to exist in certain other ME countries). They have a good, strong military. Their economy is much better than some of the others because the US hasn't tried to exploit them for their natural resources or for anything else. The truth is that Israel is very much more powerful than its neighbors. I do think that my criticism does apply here.

I also have to say that as long as Israel has almost complete support from the United States, and as long as they stay such good and blind allies of the US; that this pretty much makes them as powerful as the United States. Almost anything that Israel wants to get away with can be protected by the most powerful nation in the world.

"It generalizes issues, and adds further to the anti-Israel sentiment."

Does criticizing the US or South Africa and what they do with their power make somebody anti-American or anti-South African? Some who say this stuff about Israel are against the existence of the state, but some just want Israel to clean up their act.

"The apartheid claim is far from proven, nor is the "racial basis" a fact."

Hmmm. Besides the racism of not giving Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza strip equal rights because almost all of them are suspected to be out to murder all of the Jews in Israel, let's see what other apartheid we have. Jews and Arabs are living in separate communities. There are settlements created just for Jews. One form of religious schooling gets more money than other forms of religious schooling (of course, there's more than just race involved in that). I had shown a source a while back on here before about how Arabs have a harder time leasing land than Jews in Israel. Just because Israel doesn't have something stupid like bathrooms for "Jews only" doesn't mean that they don't have their own form of apartheid. Personally, I'm fed up with the idea that Israel shouldn't be criticized like others because they're "the Jewish state". They're no less deserving of criticism than anybody else.

[Gimel]

38. Communities

The living in separate communities, as I have tried to show you, is not apartheid, but by choice on both sides. There are Arabs in all professions in Israel, medical and legal. They have equal rights in employment in government hospitals, in bus companies and equal business rights. What more do you want? I could be rushed to the hospital for an emergency and have an Arab doctor treat me, and I'd never know it was an Arab. I never think if a bus driver is Arab or Jew, but many are Arabs.

I recently took a lift from a driver who asked me directions. I asked volunteer to ride along and show the way. As it turned out, it was a car full of Arab youths (not Palestinians). They enjoyed the stereo and except for the language, could be confused with Americans, or Europeans. I think they are freer than Israeli Jews who are conscripted at the age of 18, almost 100%. At that age they are always wearing uniforms and carrying rifles.

[Jackie97]

40. Equal in theory.

Not in reality. My country is a lot the same way with blacks. We're not supposed to deny jobs to blacks, but we do. Likewise, Israelis are discrimitive towards the Arab members. Here's one example.

http://www.wcl.american.edu/hrbrief/06/1adalah.cfm

“Since the Israeli government passed the National Planning and Building Law in 1965, life in the Arab-Israeli village of Hussaniya has been particularly difficult. The law effectively turned Hussaniya and tens of other villages like it into "unrecognized villages," the validity of which the Israeli government refuses to recognize. In essence, upon passage of this legislation, the government declared these communities illegal and claimed the land as state property. Although the government has not forcibly removed residents from these designated areas, it has created almost unbearable conditions for more than 60,000 Arab-Israeli villagers. The government's expectation was that these residents would eventually leave of their own accord, opening the region for Jewish-Israeli settlements.”

"The Israeli government's refusal to officially recognize these communities for more than 30 years has caused the residents tremendous hardship. The government rarely provides even the most limited services to these areas and made it illegal for private agencies to do so. As a consequence, residents in the unrecognized villages must survive without running water, electricity, sewage treatment facilities, schools, and health centers. In addition, villagers cannot receive mail at their homes because they are denied the right to use their local addresses. Finally, they are not represented in local government, and, although they may vote in national elections, the government makes this difficult by preventing them from claiming residency where they live."

(snip).

"I recently took a lift from a driver who asked me directions. I asked volunteer to ride along and show the way. As it turned out, it was a car full of Arab youths (not Palestinians)."

Sigh, yes they are Palestinians. They are from the same group of people living in the West Bank and Gaza strip. I read a lovely article once on their identity crisis with being both a Palestinian and an Israeli. I think that many Arabs in Israel might look at Palestine in the same way that many non-Israeli Jews look at Israel. Jews tend to think of themselves as being members of that nation (even if they legally are not). Likewise, the Arabs in Israel probably think of themselves that way. That land means just as much to them as it does to the Jews.

"They enjoyed the stereo and except for the language, could be confused with Americans, or Europeans. I think they are freer than Israeli Jews who are conscripted at the age of 18, almost 100%. At that age they are always wearing uniforms and carrying rifles."

Do you think that Israeli Jews should have to keep getting legally forced into that? The way I'm seeing it, Sharon and the Likud party are mostly doing what they do for land. So when members of the IDF are being killed, they are being killed FOR LAND. It's like the troops in my country being legally forced to stay in Iraq and be killed FOR OIL. If you ever see and understand what I'm talking about regarding Israel and land, then maybe you'll end up doing what many in my country are doing right now. That would to call to bring your troops HOME NOW.

[MariMayans]

42. it's not the same thing

Theoreticaly what Americans do is illegal and if you work hard enough at it you can take someone to court. Arab's cant because the Israeli Supreme Court has ruled over and over that Israel is the country of the Jewish People (including the Diaspora Jews) and there is nothing illegal about the advantages they hold over Israeli Arabs.

[Jackie97]

48. A lot of violations actually are illegal.

Actually, a lot of times, the Israelis are going right against their own laws. Here’s one example.

http://www.acri.org.il/english-acri/engine/story.asp?id=149

“ACRI submitted a petition yesterday to the Supreme Court against the Israel Lands Authority (ILA), The Jewish Agency, and the community of Katzir as a result of those agencies’ persistent refusal to implement the original ruling of the Supreme Court prohibiting discrimination between Arabs and Jews in the distribution of land. The petition was submitted on the 8th of March 2000 in the name of Iman and Adal Ka’adan, whose request to purchase a plot of land in Katzir was refused by the afore-mentioned bodies. The Supreme Court ruled that the State contravened the law in its allocation of state land to the Jewish Agency to establish the residential community of Katzir, which was based on a discriminatory policy of differentiating between Jews and non-Jews. Despite the fact that three and a half years have passed since the Court’s ruling, the couple is still waiting for a plot of land. In fact the ILA, the Jewish Agency, and Katzir are doing everything they can to prevent the implementation of the court ruling. The petition was submitted by ACRI’s Chief Legal Counsel Attorney Dan Yakir.”

http://www.knesset.gov.il/allsite/QGenTxt_eng.asp

Go to the seventh one. You’ll read things there that go right against what’s actually being done. The truth is that this stuff is illegal. Sorry that I can’t copy and paste any of that here. The computer is messing up every time I try.

More on civil rights and the schools in Israel (mostly for Gimel).

http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/12/SecondClass1205.htm

“The report found striking differences in virtually every aspect of the education system. The Education Ministry does not allocate as much money per head for Palestinian Arab children as it does for Jewish children. Their classes are 20 percent larger on average. They get far fewer enrichment and remedial programs-even though they need them more-in part because the Ministry uses a different scale to assess need for Jewish children. Their school buildings are in worse condition, and many communities lack kindergartens for three and four-year-olds. Palestinian Arab schoolchildren do not have the same access to counseling and vocational programs. One of the largest gaps is in special education, where disabled Palestinian Arab children get less funding and fewer services, have limited access to special schools, and lack appropriate curricula.
Arabic is an official language and the language of instruction in Israel's Arab schools. Nevertheless, the government devotes inadequate resources toward developing Arabic curricula in general, and Palestinian Arab teachers have far fewer textbooks and teaching materials at their disposal than their Jewish counterparts. Some of the content, especially the mandatory study of Jewish religious texts, alienates students and teachers alike.”

[Gimel]

50. A novelty for sure

That "Israelis should go against their own laws". It's really a aberrant society. You must report it to the UN./sarcasm tag

This only supports the observation that Israel is still a young country, was born in a state of humanitarian emergency, has been under constant threat of annihilation since, and yet continues to strive to improve and respect humanitarian law.

Is there another such country in the world?

[Jackie97]

59. "Is there another such country in the world?"

Yeah, there's plenty of other countries similar to Israel. The UN and human rights groups try to help them improve their human rights act too. Believe it or not, many of Israel's critics want to help them.

[Gimel]

75. "many of Israel's critics want to help them"

If help is what they want to give, they should first get their facts straight.

[Violet_Crumble]

82. They haven't got their facts straight?

Care to expand on that claim?

Violet...

[MariMayans]

66. Israel ranks 14th in GDP

It has an economy that depends on foreign largess to such an extent that it is an aberation that serves as an example to no one because no one else could replicate it.

Pleading poverty is the ultimate in chutzpah.

[Gimel]

76. A national debt

The US national debt is also rather unique, wouldn't you say?

[MariMayans]

93. no, not really..

It's quite common and was seen as a rather neutral issue until the anti-keynesians arose.

Proportionaly current US debt is much lower than many countries maintain. Of course this isn't a great thing to mention when Americans have been trained to think on a macroeconomic scale in the same way they think about their checkbook and it's working against the current reactionary administration but it's not very unusual at all.

[vierundzwanzig]

35. I would agree with you there

I oppose Saudi Arabia or for that matter most of those puppet Arab states. I even oppose Egypt with their discriminatory policies. It isludicrous to say I was singling out Jews.

Or maybe not, because Israel calls itself the 'Jewish State', which suggests that it acts on behalf of the Jews of the world. Which is clearly not so.

What more than a bit irks me is the fact that we as the U.S. funnel more than a third of the foreign aid we give to an Apartheid nation (Egypt following, which would be my next target) and the political support many American Jewish groups lend to this country via lobbying efforts of such incredibly powerful groups as AIPAC.

I am particularly concerned with Israel because I am particularly involved as American and simply because I picked it as a cause.

There are many, many causes to be involved in. I just need to take an Amnesty International report and flip through the pages to find others.

[Jim Sagle]

26. Steven Plaut nails it again!

:thumbsup:

[dfong63]

28. nice the way you lump in "opponents of Israeli policies"

together in the same basket with "opponents of Israel's existence".

i guess those 27 Israeli pilots who publicly refused to bomb Palestinians, are anti-Semites too, eh?

i don't object to Israel's "existence" per se, but i do object to Israel's stealing territory from its neighbors; i object to Israel's brutal oppression of the Palestinians; and i object to America subsidizing Israel's illegal land grab.

[Gimel]

29. Every word

the anti-truth. It's okay to be a Jew, as long as you live in the USA. It's okay to be a Jew, as long as you mind your masters, etc, etc.

[Jackie97]

37. How about?

It's okay to be Jewish, so long as you don't use it as an excuse to persecute others.

[Gimel]

77. Is the homeland

an excuse to persecute in your mind? Is survival of a people too much to ask in this humane world, so concerned with human rights?

[Jackie97]

102. Israel started this persecution.

They started this persecution by running Palestinians out of their own homes (which they're still doing today). If they would stop their own oppression, then support for terrorist groups like Hamas would be extremely slim and would eventually result to nothing. That would be the way to end or at least drastically reduce the suicide bombings. By contrast, what you want is for Israel to be allowed to do whatever they want to any nation that they want to, and never be struck back at. Life doesn't work like that.

[drdon326]

30. Cherryperry.......

One of the best articles presented here.....ever.

[ru4real]

94. she got kicked off for enlightening some of the dark,dank minds of DU

drdon326

thanks for your supportive comments - I will pass them along-

unfortunately cherryperry was thrown out of du and after observing many of the posts on this site I see why. I guess when presented with the truth the only thing that can be done is curse (calling Ann Coulter a c**t), cite bs with no backup (ru listening darranar), or throw someone out of the forum

i guess the "fair and balanced" title on the homepage of du is only in the minds of the people who run this site.

[Darranar]

95. What "bs with no backup?"

The "lie" I told about a Muslim advocate for peace who I heard speak?

Does cherryperry agree with your sig line?

[Darranar]

96. Tombstoned...

Good work, mods! Thank you!

[Jackie97]

106. She got kicked off for repeatedly breaking rules.

She kept accusing people on here of anti-semitism. That goes against the rules. I could be wrong, but I believe that she also kept trying to post her I/P articles on other forums, and you're not supposed to do that.

As I said before, there are rules there that are meant to protect people from both sides. READ THEM. You'll see which rules are meant to protect your side as well. It also says what to do if you see anti-semitic posts and if you think that a poster is anti-semitic (Go to the moderator). Don't say that somebody who repeatedly breaks them is being persecuted for being shown the door.

[Equinox]

43. Good Grief! That whole article is one gigantic strawman!

What a comedic choice to post at DU.

:eyes:

[Darranar]

44. Well, duh...

it's so stupid it almost seems to be a parody of a parody.

[Fight_n_back]

53. Please be more specific

when one of your gay friends comments that some peoples views are homophobis do you dismiss them this way?

It is a little rude don't you think?

[Darranar]

55. Anti-Zionists aren't anti-semites...

they simply don't believe that racism should be used to prevent racism. I believe that it sometimes is necessary, but it remains a fact that their arguments are sound and not anti-semitic in nature.

I am a Jew. That does not mean that I instantly believe any accusation of anti-semitism, nor do I expect the same from anyone else, Jew or non-Jew.

[Fight_n_back]

68. That is like saying that

anti feminists are not sexist...just because Phyllis Schafley says so doesn'ty make it true.

The fact remains...a significant numnber of people in this community get seriously offended by the labeling of zionism as evil. The response is always "You don't matter". The very discussion of anti semitism on this board tends to be, in the very least, insensitive.

[Jackie97]

108. Depends on what somebody sees as anti-feminists.

I know people who actually do support equal rights for women, but don't understand that it's called feminism and won't call themselves that.

Anyway, anti-Zionism doesn't equal anti-semitism. With some people, it does, but not all. Listen to an anti-Zionist's arguments for a change instead of just condemning him/her. If the argument itself is anti-semitic, than okay. However, lots of anti-Zionist arguments are not anti-semitic. There used to be a movement for the blacks in America to have their own country. Were people against that movement anti-black?

I do agree though that anti-Zionists shouldn't jump the gun and call Zionism racism. There are different types of Zionists. A whole lot of them actually do not support Sharon, the Likud party, or the settlements. All it means is to be for an Israeli state. And here, I want to apply the same logic of the Black National Movement. How many anti-Zionists thought that movement was "okay"? I know some anti-Zionists who are like that, and I think that's hypocritical. Why should one former movement be honored, while the other be condemned as racist? Zionism doesn't have to be about destroying homes. When considering the concept of Zionism, the actions of all Zionists should be considered. It shouldn't just be the actions of Zionists like Sharon considered.

Anyway, I think that a real communication barrier could be broken if more people would open their minds about this subject instead of thinking that they're right about it all of the time.

[Jackie97]

107. What did you mean?

When you said that you think it's sometimes necessary? What was the "it" that you were talking about?

[Darranar]

109. Racism to defend against racism...

is the "it".

[Equinox]

89. What?

Do I see another strawman in my presence?

[Fight_n_back]

90. Only if you don't know

what a strawman argument is.

I asked a simple question.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Andromeda]

52. Great article, cherryperry...

Plaut really hits the nail on the head in this piece.

[Fight_n_back]

54. People you are suppossed to care about

are saying over and over again that several things in this debate come across as bigoted. These concerns are dismissed out of hand without so much as a "Lets discuss it".

Why would anyone perceive that as anti semitic?

[Darranar]

56. I agree with you somewhat...

in that some of the anti-Israelis in this world are also anti-semitic and that contributes to their viewpoint I think that that needs to be realized and discussed - and when the matter was brought up a while ago, I saw little reluctance to discuss it.

[sabbat hunter]

57. Rwanda vs israel

snip <We do not think the Jews are entitled to their own state and must submit to being a minority in a Rwanda-style "bi-national state", although no other state on earth, including the 22 Arab countries, should be similarly expected to be deprived of its sovereignty. But that does not mean we have anything against Jews as such. >


well we all know how well everyone gets along in rwanda. so lets make another nation where everyone is at each others throats and constant tribal warfare looms.

a seperate palestine, approx. along the green line, and an israel, side by side is the way to go. a wall should be built(along the green line unlike where it is now) between the two lands, manned by UN peacekeeping forces.

peace
david
:hippie:

[Darranar]

58. Even if you are completely correct...

(which you aren't), all that doesn't make those who advocate a one-state solution anti-semitic.

[sabbat hunter]

61. true

It doenst necessarily make them anti-semetic, but it doesnt get ruled out either.

peace
david
:hippie:

[Darranar]

62. You can rarely rule out racism of any kind...

it's a sad fact of our world.

[sabbat hunter]

63. racism

i think the worst part is that many of the christian right "zionists" are probably actually anti semites.

bill maher said it recently, and thought the same thing before and agree with him, that the idea of the christian right is to have an israel so the messiah will come back. once he does any christians go to heaven and the kingdom of G-d but the nonbelievers, the jews, muslims, etc will be killed in a great battle.
of course if they convert to christianity they will be saved.
so their idea is to have israel, get the messiah back and have the jews killed.
bill maher said it better than i just did, but it still holds at least some truth behind it.

peace
david
:hippie:

[Darranar]

64. Yep...

I despise the Christian Right for their fundamentalism, intolerance and greed, and that is a great example of it.

[MariMayans]

65. you radical!

You do realize that what you propose is absolutely unaceptable to the Israeli body politik.

I welcome you as a brother but realize that advocating an independent Palestinian state makes you pariah among the Israeli political spectrum. By advocating this you have put yourself at odds with even Meretz.

I admire your courage and I stand with you 100%.

[The Magistrate]

67. Most Of Us Here Who Defend Israel, Ma'am

Are "radicals" of that sort, myself included.

[Violet_Crumble]

70. I see. So if we're not 'pro-Israeli' we don't defend Israel?

In fact most folk no matter what their views are on the issue defend Israel, it's just that some blindly defend everything Israel does no matter what it is, and others feel they can defend Israel's right to exist while criticising Israels policies towards the Occupied Territories....

Also, I've found out that when someone says they support a two-state solution, they might not be meaning that they support an independent state that's not carved up into little bantustan-like areas. They can support a two-state solution while believing that a Palestinian state shouldn't have full sovereignty, its own military, control over its infrastructure, etc. They're not talking about the same sort of statehood that you, hippie, or a few others are talking about. They're talking about a sub-state type thing under Israeli control. Plus over the past few weeks there's been quite a few posters insisting that the Occupied Territories are part of Israel, and I can't really see how people who think that way can support a two-state solution of any kind...

Violet...

[MariMayans]

71. You can trace Israel's current fate to it's "supporters"

After the '67 war De Gaulle told Israel they had made a monumental mistake, that keeping the territories would recreate Palestinian nationalism and that they were sowing the seeds of their own demise.

Of course this nasty "attack" on Israel was roundly denounced in zionist circles as proof of nasty French anti-semitism and now thirty-five years or so later this council seems almost prophetic and the usual "friends of Israel" who seem enamourmed with Prussian militarism as long as they aren't doing the fighting are still at the same game.

[Jackie97]

87. What it means to be "pro-Israel" and "pro-Palestinian"....

Personally, I think that these are the two most stupidest word in the word and I wish that they didn't exist. Notice how I mostly put these two terms in quotation marks?

Supposedly those who support Israeli policy get labeled as pro-Israel. Those who don't are labeled as pro-Palestinian.

In reaity:

One can support Israeli policy and still be for the Palestinians geting their own state "when the terrorism stops". That's not realistic, but that position exists.

One can criticize Israel and be for their right to exist.

Christian Zionists are all for supporting Israeli policy. However, many of them view Israel as a place to go and convert Jews to Christianity. They want a Christian Israel one day. Since a two state solution would supposedly destroy the Jewish state and is supposedly "anti-Zionist", couldn't the same be argued for those who want to make the Jewish state a Christian one?

Then, of course you have the two state solution, which is supposedly anti-Israel because it goes against the idea of a Jewish state. Isn't it also anti-Palestinian because it goes against the idea of a Palestinian state then?

Stuff to think about.

I think that you (generic) can believe that the occupied territories are part of Israel and believe in the two-state solution. You can simply believe that Isarel can give up part of their land for peace. To be honest, I'm confused about whether or not that land belongs to Israel. It appears that they got it during war, and nobody (including the UN, who makes pointless resolutions against Israeli policy) wants to go in and stop them.

[Fight_n_back]

97. What you are saying is absolutely wrong

but why is that a surprise.

[Jackie97]

98. Well....

While I also found flaws in that post, I want to hear what you think is wrong with it.

[Fight_n_back]

99. I'll bet

you do...

[MariMayans]

100. no..

What I've said is absolutely correct and you may wish to check the difference between autonomy and independence before you make yourself look foolish again.

[Jackie97]

101. What you said was this.

"You do realize that what you propose is absolutely unaceptable to the Israeli body politik.

I welcome you as a brother but realize that advocating an independent Palestinian state makes you pariah among the Israeli political spectrum. By advocating this you have put yourself at odds with even Meretz."


One can be for Israel's oppressive policies in so called self-defense and still be for an independent Palestinian state. The idea is to create a Palestinian state "when the terrorism stops". That still doesn't have to go contrary to existence of an Israeli state or their policies.

As far as you go Yang, fine. Don't actually explain why something is "wrong". It doesn't make the case for Israel's side look any better.

[MariMayans]

103. check it out..

It's a matter of record. Claiming you want a "palestinian state" does not mean that is really what you are advocating.

[Jackie97]

104. You're claiming to know what people are thinking......

Unless you can provide evidence that people who support the existence of Israel and even their policies who say that they are for a Palestinian state eventually are not really for one, then I don't think that you should present this idea.

The truth is that a lot of Israelis and "pro-Israelis" are not trusting the Palestinians enough to want to "put down their guns" before allowing Palestinian statehood. They think that they have to "win the war for Israel's existence" before allowing Palestine to exist legally. I try to argue that this idea is flawed, but that doesn't change how they think most of the time.

[MariMayans]

105. I'm not talking about people

I'm talking about politicians. Sharon believes he is creating a "Palestinian state" out of his little ghettos. Other plans for "statehood" have been more or less real but none of them have advocated Palestinian independence.

[MariMayans]

92. I like the Rwanda thing

That cracks me up. What do they think the US is? People other than "white" are going to be the majority in the US in a few decades or so and you have to go digging through the KKK to find anyone who gets as freaky about it as the usual Zionist suspects.

But are they racist? Herzl forbid! :eyes: