OK, I need help...

[Kiouni]

I have been trying to get a good handle on the Palestine and Israel conflict for a while now and it still confuses me. I have been reading the discussions in this forum for a while and I still have gaps in my understanding of the conflict and any proposed resolutions. Does anyone have any good sources for understanding the current conflict, the history of the conflict, pro-Israel and pro-Palestine literature/web sites?

Thanks for helping me out and please include both viewpoints if you have them.

[question everything]

1. This is a good site that is run by both Israelis and Palestinians

and present both point of view, as well as detailed historical events.

http://www.mideastweb.org/index.html

[Kiouni]

3. Great Site!

I love the Bibliography section. Thank you.

[wellst0nev0ter]

2. I Wonder If An Israel/Palestine Resource Page

can be created in the Research Forum without much discord.

[question everything]

4. Based on what is writted on these pages, and after

the Israeli-Lebanon war of last summer, I suspect that such a forum will be very one sided - anti Israel.

[Tom Joad]

5. Good pro-human rights perspective here:

http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/store/548.shtml

Read this book. "One Country" by Ali Abunimah, a Palestinian-American

For a brief overview of the history of the conflict, you might want to check out this book, by Israeli Tanya Rienhart.
Israel/Palestine: How To End the War of 1948,

[Kiouni]

6. Thank you.

[oberliner]

7. This is not really an appropriate post for this forum.

Please take a look at the rules/guidelines.

New threads must be based on a recently-published news item or op-ed piece.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x21970

[razors edge]

8. Would you prefer GD? n/t

[Name removed]

9. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lithos]

11. There is provision for a moderator exception

I'm allowing it provided it does not devolve into a flame war or otherwise break any other tenent.

My general expectation is for people to provide links to fair sources, books and/or other materials which are useful to the neophyte. I will remove links to sites which are normally barred for their extreme biased/bigoted approaches to the I/P debate. An explanation about why you think the item is useful would be nice.

Lithos
DU Moderator

[Phx_Dem]

10. Links

http://www.memri.org/index.html

http://camera.org/

http://www.palestinefacts.org/index.php

[Phx_Dem]

12. Good book on the peace process

http://www.amazon.com/Missing-Peace-Inside-Story-Middle/dp/0374529809/sr=1-1/qid=1167245397/ref=sr_1_1/104-2232536-5889508?ie=UTF8&s=books

[Englander]

13. Not so much "pro-Israel"...

as "anti-reality".

[Phx_Dem]

15. I thought we were going to be civil

I guess that's impossible for some.

[Violet_Crumble]

19. They were talking about the crap internet sources, not you n/t

[Phx_Dem]

20. You mean like Tom's link to EI?

[Violet_Crumble]

22. If someone called EI a crap internet source, they wouldn't be uncivil either n/t

[oberliner]

28. MEMRI is not a "crap internet source"

They provide translations of Arabic and Farsi media sources. They have an agenda, obviously, and choose selectively what they translate, but it is still a good resource for finding articles published in those languages translated into English. The technical accuracy of MEMRI's translations has not been disputed.

[Violet_Crumble]

30. Yeah, it is...

Like you said, they have an agenda and they are selective about what they translate. And because they do have an agenda and are selective, I don't take their translations at face value as I would with a more balanced mob. It's definately not something I'd recommend to someone wanting a general overview of the conflict. In fact, there's very little on the internet that I'd steer them towards, but that's coz I'm a bit of a book snob :)

[oberliner]

31. Democratic Congressman Brad Sherman disagrees

He writes:

"As a member of Congress on the House International Relations Committee, and the top Democratic member of its Terrorism Subcommittee, I have utilized MEMRI.org to better understand the Middle East and its political culture."

http://www.memrifilms.org/files/foreword.pdf

Would you not agree that it would be valuable to be able to read Palestinian newspapers printed exclusively in Arabic in order to better understand the current conflict?

Most of the Israeli newspapers have English language editions available online while it is more difficult to find original source material from Palestinian newspapers in English.

I did not say that I would recommend the site to someone wanting a general overview of the conflict. I just do not think it is fair to characterize it as a "crap internet source" as you did, or as "anti-reality" as another poster did.

[Violet_Crumble]

32. And why's that supposed to impress me?

I've got no idea who he is or what he utilises, or what his knowledge of the Middle East is, and I don't care..

What would be valuable would be to actually be able to read Arabic and Hebrew without having to trust groups with a clear agenda like memri has. And I do think it's fair to call them a crap internet source, though on the crap level they're not as bad as the other two listed in the post...

[oberliner]

33. Ethos, I guess

Just pointing out that a leading Democrat from the House International Relations Committee found the site to be useful in helping him to understand the Middle East. Perhaps others may find it similarly useful.

I agree with you that being able to read Arabic and Hebrew would be valuable, however, learning those languages is not practical for everyone who is interested in learning about the conflict. To my mind, the more sources that are translated into English, the better.

Not sure why you recommend the writings of Alan Dershowitz and Norman Finkelstein, two authors with clear agendas, but dismiss MEMRI as a "crap internet source."

The MEMRI site, in my view, provides a lot more insight into the conflict than any book by Alan Dershowtiz.

[Violet_Crumble]

41. Heh, it may have worked for another American...

..but my general view of the understanding of the I/P conflict from both Democrat and Republican politicians in the US is pretty woeful....

fwiw, the crap internet sources was aimed much more at the other two sites listed than at memri...

[barb162]

34. So their translations are accurate, but they're a crap source?

That makes no sense

[oberliner]

35. A common criticism is that they selectively translate

only specific articles designed to make one side look more extreme.

[barb162]

36. Yes I know, but I would say most people would praise their

translation work.

[Violet_Crumble]

38. Most people can't speak Arabic, so how would they know the translations are accurate?

Sounds more to me like those would be the folk who like the agenda and selectivity of MEMRI...

[barb162]

44. And how do you know their translations aren't accurate

and that their translations are without agenda

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

53. I've got absolutely no idea why my post was deleted...

All I did was ask you to answer the question I asked you. So, can you please answer the question I asked you?

[oberliner]

45. Do you have evidence to suggest the translations are not accurate?

From Counterpunch:

It has come to my attention that I unintentionally misrepresented one aspect of MEMRI's work by asserting that the organization "undertakes the disingenuous practice of mistranslating excerpts of anti-occupation articles published in the Arabic press." After further investigation of this issue, I have discovered that the technical accuracy of MEMRI's translations has not been disputed. Thus I specifically retract my allegation that the organization's translations are questionable, and I apologize for my error.

http://www.counterpunch.org/harris01152003.html

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oberliner]

49. You don't need to have evidence, was just curious to know if you did

Having re-read the exchange as you suggested, I would argue that even those who do not like the agenda of MEMRI and/or do speak Arabic have stated that the translations presented on the page are accurate.

I cite my earlier post on this thread with the Counterpunch article as evidence of someone who does not like agenda/selectivity of MEMRI but who, after investigating the issue, discovered that the technical accuracy of MEMRI's translations has not been disputed.

I would also point out that MEMRI did not use the infamous phrase "wipe them off the map" regarding Ahmadinejad's oft-quoted speech about Israel. MEMRI's translation was nearly exactly the same as the one provided by Juan Cole.

You may find this all to be tangential and irrelevant and I don't mean to misrepresent anything that you've said.

I just would respectfully encourage you to reconsider your perceptions of the accuracy of the translations provided by that site.

[Violet_Crumble]

52. That's fair enough...

I just would respectfully encourage you to reconsider your perceptions of the accuracy of the translations provided by that site.

I doubt anything but me learning Arabic is going to get me to reconsider how I feel about MEMRI. And by then MEMRI wouldn't matter coz I could translate stuff on my own :)

[eyl]

59. So basically, your position on MEMRI

is an assumption, based on...what?*

If you root around their site a bit, you'll also see they don't limit themselves to translating the extrimist viewpoints.

Granted, I wouldn't recommend MEMRI for an overview of the issue, but they are usefull for exploring specific points, and even their critics don't claim they're mistranslating anythig.


*I apologize if you've already ansered this in one of the delted posts, but by the time I got to this thread, they were gone.

[Violet_Crumble]

54. I notice my reply to you got deleted...

I've got no idea why, but if somehow I offended you and you alerted on it, I apologise....

[Phx_Dem]

50. Her screen name is Barb162 not Barbo

Really Violet, wtf?

[Violet_Crumble]

51. And I call her barbo...

And she calls me 'crumb'. Not sure why you've got a problem with 'barbo' and not 'crumb'. Well, actually, I do have an idea, but I'm not allowed to mention it in this forum :)

[Violet_Crumble]

37. No, that's not what I said n/t

[Englander]

42. What about CAMERA & palestinefacts?

Any thoughts on those two?

[Englander]

40. Well, here's the deal -

Posting ridiculous sites that aren't in any way objective, means those sites are going to be
ridiculed.

Posting sites that aren't ridiculous = no ridicule.

[Phx_Dem]

43. The OP asked for info from various sources

specifically:

"Does anyone have any good sources for understanding the current conflict, the history of the conflict, pro-Israel and pro-Palestine literature/web sites?"

All three links I provided offer up good accurate info about the I/P conflict, albeit from a somewhat Israeli POV.

[Violet_Crumble]

55. That's got to be understatement of the century...

'albeit from a somewhat Israeli POV.'

Those two sites are nothing but biased propaganda sites that shouldn't be recommended to anyone looking for a general understanding of the conflict.

[Englander]

56. As opposed to bad accurate info?

The provided sites (particularly the last two) are pretty ridiculous, & are not a good source for
providing info. That's something you've helped to prove, by not providing any evidence of this
"good accurate info".

They are, however very useful for another reason, for helping to understand the conflict. The pov
they provide, & the propaganda produced does provide an insight as to why the conflict continues.

[Phx_Dem]

57. I think we are all aware that there are two narratives

about the conflict. IMO the conflict continues because the Palestinians lack any leaders with the guts to end it.

Regarding my use of english, I am not a writer, I'm sure that this is not the last time I mangle a sentence. Feel free to point out my mistakes if it makes you feel better, just be aware that I really could not give a shit what you think.

[Englander]

14. List of books -

This one in particular is recommended;

The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World
by Avi Shlaim
http://www.amazon.com/Iron-Wall-Israel-Arab-World/dp/0393321126/sr=1-1/qid=1167246882/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-4452368-1860118?ie=UTF8&s=books

Booklist
http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/booklist.shtml

[Phx_Dem]

16. Avi Shlaim--Iron Wall book

From Publishers Weekly:
....
But Shlaim's revisionist enthusiasm too often gets the better of him: he fails to marshal the necessary evidence to support his contention that Arab rulers were "prepared to recognize Israel, to negotiate directly with it, and even to make peace with it." Shlaim's explanations of Arab political constraints, especially the pragmatism of Arab rulers relative to the extreme anti-Israel sentiment of the Arab street, is illuminating. But his view of Palestinian terrorism as a reaction to Israeli militarism is far too simplistic. Revisionism is one thing, but Shlaim employs a double standard: while he tends to view Israeli leaders, most notably Israel's first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, as villains, he heaps praise on the "realism" of Arab leaders. A comprehensive, balanced history of Israel's history with its Arab neighbors needs to be written, but this is not it.

[question everything]

17. Avi Shalim is an authority on the history of the Middle East

especially the way Britain screwed up everything..

I have his War and Peace in the Middle East, written after the first Gulf War and it is full of facts and information.

As they say, everyone is a critic. Who provided this "unbiased" review?

[Phx_Dem]

18. link at Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/Iron-Wall-Israel-Arab-World/dp/0393321126/sr=1-1/qid=1167246882/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-4452368-1860118?ie=UTF8&s=books
Scroll down to the Publishers Weekly review.

[Violet_Crumble]

21. Just curious...

The review says: 'But Shlaim's revisionist enthusiasm too often gets the better of him: he fails to marshal the necessary evidence to support his contention that Arab rulers were "prepared to recognize Israel, to negotiate directly with it, and even to make peace with it." '

Can you give some examples of where this happens in the book? I'm assuming you have read it, right?

[Phx_Dem]

24. I read the reviews

I have no reason to believe that Publishers Weekly is biased.

Welcome back to the I/P forum btw, hope you enjoyed your holiday!

[Violet_Crumble]

25. You should read the book...

I've never heard of Publishers Weekly but I do strongly suspect the reviewer from there was indeed biased and appears to be critical because the book was balanced (eg they don't point out that Shlaim was critical of decisions and actions of various Arab states). It's a good book and I think you'd enjoy it...

Thanks for the welcome back. I've been back for a while now and the holiday was awesome :)

[Phx_Dem]

26. I might just do that

assuming I can find it at the library.

[Lithos]

29. That is a claim you can make about most everything I/P related

The claim of not being either comprehensive or balanced. Another way of saying that is everyone is guilty by the sin of omission.

Avi Shlaim's book is a fair stab and at least academically defensible which I think is a good criteria for judging it. Given that it is only one volume in what is really an extremely dense history, it is bound to have gaps. As for creating a negative perception of any of the main individuals involved in the I/P situation; very, very few individuals could even lay claim to being anything but a villain at some level and it would be foolish to try and put them up on a pedestal.

Personally, I've always found it interesting to try and pair off books against each other. For instance, alternating between the works of Albert Hourani, Bernard Lewis, and Edward Said is fairly profitable in understanding what is going on. They each do a fair job of rounding out the faults of the other.

[Englander]

39. Details, please?

Like, the link, & the name of whoever reviewed, or "reviewed" the book?

On edit;

Nevermind, I've just noticed that's taken from the Amazon page.

I would suggest actually reading the book, rather than an anonymous review of it.

[Kiouni]

27. Thank you,

I will try to read it soon.

[Violet_Crumble]

23. Some reading from both viewpoints...

And my suggestion would be to be wary of anything read on the internet because you might be reading something that's agenda-driven that may omit information or exaggerate things in order to give an unrealistic version of events...

The most balanced book that covers the history of the conflict would be Avi Shlaim's 'Iron Wall'. It's not heavy going to get through and it was used as the textbook when I studied ME politics a few years back...

For ones that are seen as biased towards Israel, try Derschowitz's 'A Case for Israel' and 'Fabricating Israeli History: The "New Historians"' by Efraim Karsh (when it comes to Karsh there might be other more general books, but that's the only one I've read of his).

And for ones that are seen as biased towards Palestine, there's Norman Finkelstein's 'Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict' and one I'm reading right now called 'My Israel Question' by Antony Loewenstein...

[Behind the Aegis]

48. Israeli - Palestinian ProCon.org

It has many links, info, and ideas from both sides and the middle. It is a little cumbersome, but it has some good reasearch info.

http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/

(Has some great maps too!)

[Agony]

58. Israeli information center for human rights in the OT

http://www.btselem.org/English/

haaretz...ynet...bbc post links to information from this organization. I suppose that says something. Inevitably someone will criticize any information source on this topic as biased. I took me about a year of reading everything I could get my hands on to feel that I understood the issues surrounding I/P enough to form my OWN opinion. Good luck.