Six killed in Israeli raids

[hussar]

Israeli raids into the West Bank and Gaza Strip have left five Palestinians and an Israeli soldier dead and at least five Israeli soldiers wounded.

Tanks supported by helicopter gunships moved into Bureij refugee camp in the Gaza Strip, sparking fierce fighting.

Two militants were killed and a three-year-old Palestinian child died, Palestinian sources said, while one of six Israeli soldiers wounded in the raid later died from his wounds.

Two more Palestinians were killed when Israeli troops surrounded a building in the West Bank city of Hebron where members of the radical Islamic Jihad group were hiding.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3137740.stm

Sorry if this is old news, had a look and didn't see another report, mods if this is a dupe, kill it.

[Wetzelbill]

1. this conflict is enough to drive a guy to drinking

I am so frustrated with both sides.

[LastDemInIdaho]

2. More "militants" (read terrorists) hiding behind 3YO children

The militants or whatever they want to call their reign of terror should quit parking their terror behind kids. If their cause of killing innocent Israelis is so rightous then why hide behind children?

It seems their goal is to get as many innocents killed as possible before they "martyr" themselves. Sick.

[MariMayans]

3. yeah, it's their fault

Maybe the IDF will get real drunk and teary later and ask the Palestinians why they drive them to drink and push their buttons and make them hit them.

[bemildred]

4. I don't think they provide much cover, Sir,

being small, so I must say I don't see why they
would do it either. On the other hand in a crowded
residential area there would likely be plenty of them
about.

[LastDemInIdaho]

5. The terrorists should not be in crowded areas if they care about innocents

But we have seen from their blood work that they DON'T care about the deaths of innocent since they target kids on busses and pizza cafes.

They are the lowest forms of life on this earth to hide behind and kill innocent children.

[Darranar]

6. So they should walk around in desolate areas of the WB and Gaza...

got it. They shouldn't go to their homes, or talk to their families.

No, i don't have any sympathy for them. But I DO have sympathy for those innocent Palestinians caught in the middle - and no, it isn't the Hamas leader's fault.

[bemildred]

8. Where should they be Sir?

There are not a lot of uncrowded areas in Gaza.
Out in the street where they can be easily mowed down,
just in case some soldiers happen to come looking for them?
Perhaps if the soldiers were to make an appointment with them,
they could arrange to be somewhere more suitable.
Perhaps they should just turn themselves in, save everyone the
trouble. Even better they could just kill themselves as soon
as they have that first evil thought, without any bombs attached
of course.

[LastDemInIdaho]

11. They should be in a PA jail

Or six feet under for targeting innocents.

[Darranar]

12. So, no matter what happens, the nearest criminal gets all the blame for it

Got that.

[Orangeone]

13. Hello

If Israel wants the fighters arrested, then why the hell did they bomb PA police stations and kill policemen? The Palestinian infrastructure was destroyed.

[Darranar]

14. Hey, they were "terrorists!"

Anyone who israel has decided to kill or bomb becomes a "terrorist."

Just like the way the despicable suicide bombers use rhetoric to indicate that the suicide bombings actually help the Palestinian cause, Israel does several despicable acts under the guise of security.

[The Magistrate]

9. Still, Mr. Mildred

So long as this conflict continues at high pitch, such incidents will continue to occur. It is an unfortunate necessity for partisan forces to conceal themselves among their civilian populace, and accordingly, it is an unfortunate necessity for regular forces fighting them to open fire on occassion in crowded areas. It cannot be expected that one side in a war will refrain from acting against the armed forces of the enemy as best it can. Operations like this are not the product of some perversity peculiar to the Likud Party; any government of any state would conduct itself in a similar manner, in a similar circumstance. The problem is really the nature of war itself, a thing you have pointed to many times yourself when discussion has veered toward its legalities. The solution is an end to the conflict; there the current Israeli government can well be faulted, for it has not availed itself of non-military means which might have diminished or ended it. Since guerrilla war is, in fact, more a political than a military thing, this is a grave failing in strategy.

[bemildred]

15. Indeed Sir, that is the nature of such conflicts.

The wise prosecutor of such a conflict against such enemies
makes great effort to avoid playing their game. Wise governance
dictates strenuous efforts to avoid such conflicts in the first
place.

It boots little to call one's enemies names, when we should
be mourning the child. One may expect a continuance of such
fatalities on both sides while the conflict continues, and
indulging oneself in this sort of ranting will not bring it to
an end. I find this sort of emotional stirring the pot more
likely to keep it going than otherwise, and that is why I dislike
it. Fear, hate, and anger are the enemies of reason.

There is something to be said for the idea that the attitude
of the Palestinian people must change, but it seems most unlikely
that such a change will occur by such actions as this one, or as
a result of emotional rants and name-calling, the conditions of
their lives must be improved. If one wants the support of ones
population one must govern well.

I know we do not really disagree here.
Regards.

[The Magistrate]

17. We Do Not, My Friend

We have the stick from different ends, perhaps, at times, but that is a small matter.

There is certainly no good purpose served by rituals of vilification, on either side of this debate, though doubtless to the people actually discharging weapons they serve some purpose in the necessary hardening of the heart for the task most anyone would rather shirk.

[bemildred]

18. Perhaps.

One certainly expects better of leaders, and I have some
skepticism that even a foot soldier is not well served to
keep his head about him, although it is often the business
of an officer to get the cannon-fodder ready for their charge.
But I think we mostly try to avoid that sort of battle these
days, too much sticky residue.

[The Magistrate]

20. Unfortunately, My Friend

A clear head is not incompatible with viewing your enemy as a species of vermin. De-humanization of the foe seems an essential element to the capacity to kill and then sleep nights, except for those constitutionally disordered. These latter are not numerous enough to provide the necessary manpower all by themselves. Ordinary people must be twisted into the necessary shape; hence, sergeants and corporals....

[bemildred]

22. De-humanization does seem essential for killing.

When one takes it to the point of pursuing tactical
objectives at the expense of strategic ones, when it
infects operational planning, it becomes a liability.
Disrespect for ones enemies is a weakness, although one
may get away with it. In General level officers it is a
great weakness and not to be tolerated.

The real problem in this conflict is that the desire for
peace is not present, Mr. Sharon is running out of time and
wants to get as much done as he can, according to his lights,
and Hamas has no wish for peace either, and Mr.Arafat rather
enjoys his renewed eminence and potential martyrdom, and those
who might like to work things out are reduced to not very
effective protest, they are not calling the shots.

In a word, being a effective engine for peace in this dispute
at the present time is a good way to get yourself killed.

A sad situation.
Regards.

[Orangeone]

7. Not Terrorists

Just because the Israelis say someone is a terrorist doesn't make it true. We are just supposed to accept it. People fighting the soldiers are not terrorists.

Also, the claim that Palestinians hide behind children is totally despicable. Palestinan children get shot when there are no adults there.

[Muddleoftheroad]

10. A couple points

It is the organized plan of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and others to hide in population centers to either prevent Israel from attacking or to maximize Palestinian body count for PR purposes.

They are terrorists and deserve nothing better than the business end of a gun. The time is long overdue for the brave among the Palestinians to end their tyranny.

[UserNamesAreFree]

21. I agree with you on the terrorists

but the question is...is there any entity amongst the Palestinians that would have the capability of destroying the terrorist organizations? Assuming it had the desire, does the P.A. have the ability? My understanding is they don't.

[Muddleoftheroad]

23. They choose not to have that ability

Arafat could have the ability if he wanted. He has a lot of money and clearly would get Western and Israeli support to take on the terrorists.

Imagine this, Arafat wakes up today and reads DU. He sees a post by The Magistrate that makes it clear the Palestinians can only have one military taking action for them. (My all-time favorite Magistrate point.) It dawns on him that years of backing terror and and supporting terror are wrong both morally and practically and he wants to fight Hamas and Islamic Jihad et al. Do you doubt he would find support for that?

[UserNamesAreFree]

24. Arafat

But if it were Arafat, trust from the Israelis would be an issue..I don't think they'd buy it.

My question was meant to be more general than Arafat. Let's assume Arafat was exiled and a Palestinian leader that has some credibility with Israel and the U.S. decides terror is a dead end, and says so. Does the P.A. have the ability to carry it out? My guess is no. Then the question becomes...who could he call on to carry it out? Sympathetic Palestinians probably wouldn't have the ability. Invite the IDF in to do the job? Would the IDF be willing? I don't in a million years see the U.S. involved militarily.

Bottom line is this...if a Palestinian leader is inclined to turn from terror, what means are there to enforce that? And if there are no means, the Palestinians and Israelis have to wait for the terrorist groups to decide to disarm themselves before there is peace. Palestinan leadership disavowing terror means nothing if there are no means to enforce it.

[MariMayans]

36. Arafat in exile is still the leader

It's been tried before and it only makes him more popular.

[Darranar]

25. Actually, they don't have it...

The Israeli push to end terrorism hasn't been very successful, since it's been done badly. The PA lacks the infrastructure to do anything to the terrorists, and they certainly lack the ability to address the root causes of the terrorism.

[Muddleoftheroad]

26. the reason

The reason Israel has gone after the PA and such is their open support of terror.

[Darranar]

27. What open support for terrorism?

This has come up again and again and again and I have yet to see reliable sources indicate that this is true.

[Muddleoftheroad]

29. Karine A

Don't suppose you believe Arafat had nothing to do with that?

[Darranar]

31. Tolerated it, perhaps...

Authorized it? i don't think so.

After all, all this money and equipmenet is supposed to be flowing to these Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists. It shouldn't require Arafat's assistance when its the work of a regime like that in Iran...

[The Magistrate]

32. This Shipment, Mr. Darranar

Does seem to have been a Palestine Authority venture. Arafat congtrols monies so closely it is unlikely he did not sign off on the thing, and Palestine Authority personnel were involved. There is no clear connection, however, between this and "terror": though there are agreements barring certain arms from the Palestine Authority, these are a sort of agreement it seems nonsensical to me to expect actually to be kept.

[Darranar]

33. Okay...

I followed the story through a very biased newspaper, so I don't really know all the facts.

[MariMayans]

38. I don't even believe it was real

No one is stupid enough to try and just float a load of guns into Gaza.

If it was however, I'd commend Arafat for procuring the items necessary to beat back the occupation forces, the most important of which would be anti-tank weapons (the utter lack of these weapons being deployed by Palestinians makes their sudden one-time appearance on the Karine A seem more than suspect to me) instead of pissing around trying to be everything to everyone and camping in his hovel.

[Darranar]

39. That's going too far...

if the incident never happened, how would the GOI fake it?

[The Magistrate]

40. There Was Some Speculation At The Time, Sir

That it was some sort of "black ops" effort using double-agents, set up to be captured and displayed.

It is an easy allegation, and impossible to prove.

[Darranar]

41. Well, I think it's a load of junk...

and I'll keep my opinion until some real infomration is shown to me that supports it.

Some conspiracy theories (few, but some) make some sense, but the ones who think them up concerning Israel often can't decide whether the Mossad is a bunch of incompetent loonies or super-powerful agents who control basically every aspect of the world. :eyes:

Just like the anti-semitic propaganda that sometimes said that Jews were part of a grand conspiracy to control the world and sometimes said that they were too moronic to be accepted into this country.

[MariMayans]

42. easy..

You pull over the boat, load up the guns, arrest the "terrorist" and head off for the photo op.

[Darranar]

43. There are several holes in your claim...

the first being that you have no evidence whatsoever to back up your claim.

The second is that the PA or Hamas or whoever had those weapons shipped would have had a clear motivation for doing so; weapons are always useful, and the PA would certainly fnd them useful in case Israel tried to eliminate them or Hamas decided that a more fundamentalist or extremist government was in order.

[MariMayans]

44. I'm not making a claim

I'm stating an opinion.

I have to back that up a few points.

1) Israel claimed the ship was Palestinian Authority property bought by them in Lebanon. This was disproven so the provenance moved to Greece. This was disproven so it went to Bulgaria. Then they dropped it. It was actually very easy to find the owner, you just check Lloyd's List and the owner was an Iraqi.

2)As I said before it is incredibly stupid. If they got through the Red Sea carrying this crap and somehow weren't stopped by Egyptians they would then be moving into a body of water where Gaza fishing boats are blown to hell on a regular basis and probably the tightest naval surveilance on the planet. Chance of success is virtuallly nil

3)Supposedly the plan was to put them in watertight containers and dump them to be retrieved later. These included sixty-two quite large rockets. Where were they going to stash these?

Is it possible this was a real arms shipment? Yeah, it's possible. Maybe Hezbollah since Turkey was starting to intercept Iranian air shipments of weapons. Maybe, just maybe, they really meant to try and bring these weapons into Gaza but it would require believing whatever group bought these weapons are complete fools.

[Darranar]

45. Well, first of all...

human stupidity is not something to ever be underestimated.

Anyway, can you back up some of that with links? If you can, I might be swayed a little. My trust for the IDf is virtually non-existant.

[MariMayans]

46. sure..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4339656-105806,00.html

It's worth remembering also that this whole thing unfolded precisely when Zinni was scheduled to arrive.

[Darranar]

47. Interesting...

it still seems a bit too unsubstantiated to me. Once again, the depths of human stupidity are not something to underestimate.

[MariMayans]

48. I don't claim to know anything

I'm just highly cynical of everything everyone over there says and it usually serves me well.

[Darranar]

49. I am, too...

I just am also highly cynical when it comes to conspiracy theories.

[The Magistrate]

30. In My View, Mr. Muddle

Sharon attacked Palestine Authority targets in the early stages of this latest period of intense hostilities in accord with a policy of goading the Palestine Authority to act against Hamas, et al, in order to avoid further punishment. This has, in the past, been a frequent tactic of Israeli governments in dealing with irregular forces being tolerated by a legitimate authority. It was most prevalent during the early years of Israel, when Sharon was personally involved in such operations: after a fedayeen incursion, Israeli forces would strike the Jordanian border station nearest the point of crossing, or even, on occassion, the nearest Arab village to that point. Some degree of cooperation, at least in the case of Jordan, seems to have been secured by the method, and it would certainly be a logic familiar to Sharon.

In the present circumstance, it has clearly failed in its object: Arafat has not been moved by those actions to act in the way desired. Worse, these actions were repeated so frequently and to such effect as to seriously degrade the ability of the Palestine Authority to act against Hamas, et al, even if Arafat were to decide today to undertake to do so. All in all, it has been a grotesquely self-defeating exercise.

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. Not so much self defeating, just futile

Arafat won't attack the terrorist no matter what Israel does.

[The Magistrate]

35. That May Well Be, My Friend

Thank you for the citation above, by the way, Sir. It is gratifying.

[Darranar]

37. True enough...

It's sad the way all the leaders with real power have no interest whatsoever in a real and just peace.

The most I can say for most of the PA is that they don't aid terrorists, though they do tolerate them. This, IMO, is far more pragmatic than altruistic.

[DuctapeFatwa]

16. It is indeed difficult to defend the murder of 3 year olds

Those who are bound, for whatever reasons, to do so, do not have an easy task, and what their arguments may lack in persuasive power is more than made up by their zeal.

[UserNamesAreFree]

28. Sorry-mistake

-

[UserNamesAreFree]

19. My heart goes out

to the family of that child or any other innocents hurt or killed. But it's difficult to mourn the killing of any terorists.