No apology

[DuctapeFatwa]

Ahmed Abu Latifi is the
fifth child to be killed here
in recent months - in the same
place, in the same
circumstances. IDF soldiers
versus kids from the Qalandiyah
refugee camp, and the score is
5:0 at the half. A live bullet for every stone, a burst of gunfire for every
attempt to vandalize the fence that surrounds
the now-defunct airport. In the killing fields
of Qalandiyah, there are no other ways to
disperse children: no hoses or teargas, no
megaphones, no plastic shields, not even rubber
bullets. Just live fire from a short range and
to hell with the rules of engagement and with
basic justice, which should tell the soldiers:
You don't shoot at children. Period. Ever. No
ifs, ands or buts.

"Shooting at an unarmed teenager is clearly
illegal," Major General (res.) Ami Ayalon said
in an interview about a year and a half ago,
but not one of the child-killers in Qalandiyah
has been put on trial. After five children have
been killed in the same place, it appears that
no one in the IDF cares at all about their
lives and deaths.

One after the other, they were killed this way:
Husam Adisi, brothers Yasser, 11, and Samer,
15, Kusaba - killed 40 days apart, and Omar
Matar, 14, killed here five months ago when he
tried to knock down a spy balloon...

One bed was
Ahmed's and the other is Mahmoud's. Picture of
Omar are on the wall. Ahmed decorated the door
of his closet with tiny pictures of tanks,
helicopters and Jeeps - some from the IDF.
Outside, on the wall of the house, a black
scrawl: "They killed him out of fear, they
killed him out of hatred, they killed him as
revenge. Peace be upon you, Ahmed."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/344342.html

[liberalhistorian]

1. SIGH.

When are Americans going to wake up and see the kind of shit our tax dollars are responsible for and what our unqualified support of Israel, which is always right no matter what and can do no wrong, even if it murders young American citizens trying to stop the unprovoked, ruthless destruction of Palestinian neighborhoods just to seize the land and water for the illegal settlements, is causing?

[mmm]

2. True

I get the word out whenever I can. People don't know.
When you tell them, they get angry. Have them look at the
ISM web site every day: Truth.

[Josh]

3. Look at the source, though -

this is an Israeli newspaper. Can you ever imagine a Palestinian publication coming out and doing the reverse for victims of Palestinian attacks?

There are serious issues in this region and they need to be solved and thought about and discussed deeply, but too often people seem to be willing only to blame Israel and to view the Palestinians as suffering lambs that are completely and totally innocent in any part of the violence.

[Violet_Crumble]

5. I looked at the source...

And I imagine that if things were reversed and it was the Palestinians who were getting all that aid from the US and occupying Israeli territory, you'd see exactly the same thing. It's kind of silly under the circumstances to compare the Israeli and Palestinian media...

Why are the Palestinian people (not the groups like Hamas etc) supposed to share the blame with Israel for Israel's occupation and all the accompanying human rights violations that have occured during it? When Indonesia invaded East Timor in 1975, should we have all been careful to blame the East Timorese as well as Indonesia for fear of being accused of being willing only to blame Indonesia?

Violet...

[rini]

4. Murders

As opposed to murdering a baby at a religious observance in her home, or two little boys whose mother tried to shield them with her own body as she read them a bedtime story.

[Violet_Crumble]

6. Ah, so some murders are acceptable and others aren't?

Sorry, but the deliberate killing of ANY child is totally unjustifiable...

Violet...

[bluesoul]

7. Exactly

Amen Violet.

[Violet_Crumble]

11. Isn't it sad?

That some people don't agree with what anyone with some humanity and concern for children would quickly agree with. Instead people will insert the word 'innocent' into what they claim I said and imply that the killing of some children is justifiable because they're not 'innocent'....

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

14. Innocent

Killed while stoning soldiers? Killed while trying to attack security spy balloon? These young people are actively involved in attacks on Israeli security. How would you handle it if a group of people were trying to stone you?

And no, I am not saying they deserved death, but they certainly are party to it and embraced it by being stupid.

In the U.S., how many of you throw rocks at armed police? How many of you try and destroy security cameras in near the Pentagon?

[Violet_Crumble]

15. They're children...

Are you denying that the IDF has killed Palestinian children? And you are justifying the killing of children. Going to try to think up some ludicrous reason why that three year old Palestinian isn't 'innocent' enough in yr eyes?

How would I handle it if CHILDREN threw a stone at me? I sure as hell wouldn't shoot them....

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

16. Yes, they are children, or mostly

And no, we are not talking ONE CHILD throwing a stone. How would you react if you were being stoned by a group? And 15 and 14 are not what I would typically describe as children, especially in a war zone.

And you didn't address my points about them causing their own deaths -- which they did. They were at best idealistic and at worse stupid for stoning soldiers and trying to destroy security equipment.

Now of course, we have not heard the soldiers' side of this. Was their gunfire also? Who knows? Yes, it appears that these youths were killed by Israeli bullets. It also appears that they were not innocent bystanders.

[Violet_Crumble]

18. So now children are causing their own deaths???

I wouldn't shoot children. You think it's okay to shoot children?

I asked you a question which you totally ignored Muddle. Are you denying that the IDF has deliberately killed children?

Get a clue. The only people who cause the deaths of children are the ones who murder them....

Yr posts in this thread have been disgusting and show a lack of compassion and human decency. And you'd be the first whining if anyone were ever to try justifying the death of an Israeli child or saying they died because they were stupid...

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

19. In response

Have individual soldiers at times overreacted and shot children? Probably, given how long this conflict has gone on. Is it the policy of the IDF? No.

I would shoot anyone who was attacking me in a combat zone. Especially, if they looked organized and appeared to also be trying to take out my position. I would try to chase them off, but if I felt jeopardized, I wouldn't card them first.

Sorry, but these children -- including at least two mid-teens -- were not "murdered." They were shot attacking a military outpost and trying to destroy necessary security equipment. Children throw stones sometimes, perhaps, but trying to take out a security camera? Innocent? Not hardly.

As for stupid, here is the origin of my statement. I grew up in the inner city. It's a place where contempt of cop can get you jailtime or worse. NO ONE there believes you can get away throwing rocks at armed police. Or worse, attacking a security checkpoint.

In a war zone, am I to think that Palestinian children are somehow ignorant of these realities? I give them more credit than that.

The Isaeli children who get murdered are not active participants in the conflict. They are bystanders who are deliberately targeted by Palestinian terrorists.

[Violet_Crumble]

20. I didn't ask you what the policy of the IDF was...

What can a small child do to make someone 'overreact' and kill them?

You'd shoot a child? Good for you! The whole idea of shooting a child and making excuses that they looked 'organised' is totally sickening...

Those children were murdered, Muddle. And sorry that you think it's acceptable to murder someone for throwing stones or trying to knock down a balloon. Obviously the monetary cost of replacing that ever-so-precious 'security' equipment outweighs the life of a human being, if that human being is a Palestinian....

Oh, so where you grew up kids were shot and killed for throwing stones at cops? So that makes it okay for the IDF to shoot and kill kids for throwing stones? The only thing stupid was yr comment about children being stupid...

Oh yeah. Palestinian children aren't like other kids. Very small children and babies have been killed by the IDF. Can you please explain how exactly they're supposed to be aware of this supposed 'reality'?

Palestinian children who get killed by the IDF aren't active participants in the conflict either. Many of them are bystanders whose deaths are intentionally caused by the IDF. Stop trying to so blindly justify EVERYTHING the IDF does and try showing just a shred of concern over the killing of children, no matter whether they're Israeli or Palestinian...

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

22. War zone

Violet

Normally, you are more realistic about life in a war zone. Today you are not being so.

What can a child do? Well attacking people who have guns and making them fear for their lives works.

As for me, I'd shoot anybody if I thought my life were threatened. I don't know if these soldiers felt that or not.

No, these children were not "murdered." If children attack police officers in America and the police officer defends himself, it isn't murder.

I don't give a damn about the COST of the balloon. The balloon undoubtedly had a camera, a SECURITY camera in it. That means the children's attack leaves that position vulnerable because they can't see what else is going on. Do you think it was an accident that they attacked the balloon with the camera?

Like it or not, these "children" (I am reluctant to say a 15-year-old is either small or a child.), are involved in the conflict. They CHOSE to be involved by attacking and trying to harm Israeli soldiers.

No, where I grew up, even mouthing off to a cop could get you locked up. We all KNEW BETTER than to actually attack them and try to harm them. Palestinian children know better, but they CHOOSE to try and attack armed soldiers anyhow.

No, small kids shouldn't be aware, their parents should keep them out of the line of fire and, just like the inner city, keep them from attacking people in charge.

I am not blindly defending the actions of the IDF, but killing children isn't part of their strategy. If it were, there would be a lot more dead Palestinian children than there are now. Do children die unnecessarily in this conflict? Absolutely.

[MariMayans]

24. Hamas might consider Tel Aviv a war zone

It wouldn't make them or you correct.

on edit: Comparing the Israeli's to the police of your government is rather twisted.

[Muddleoftheroad]

31. People in authority with guns

Are much the same everywhere. They don't like to be attacked.

[MariMayans]

33. That's cowardly as hell

[Violet_Crumble]

25. What I'm realistic about...

Is that all children should be protected. Seriously, if a soldier who's armed feels their life is threatened by a child throwing a stone at them, they're a fucking wuss and more than likely uses that excuse to shoot anyone who looks at them....

A child who is killed because they throw stones at someone or tries to bring a balloon down IS a victim of murder...

Cameras can be replaced. Children can't. It doesn't get any simpler than that, Muddle...

How do small children attack grown men, Muddle? And seeing as how children inside homes have been killed, how exactly are their parents supposed to keep them safe? Yr blaming the children for being there. Maybe you don't want to travel further down that path as the same logic leads to pointing out that Israeli children killed in the Occupied Territories shouldn't be there and their parents should be keeping them safe instead of dragging them into a 'war zone'...

Sorry, but you are blindly defending the actions of the IDF. I've never yet seen you criticise the IDF for anything. And yet again, we're not talking about the policy of the IDF, we're talking about what actually happens...


Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

32. Some clarity

I will keep this short since The Magistrate is making these same points quite well.

How do you protect children when they put themselves on the front line and attack soldiers? Shouldn't their parents do some protecting too?

Throwing stones can be minor or very dangerous. Neither of us know which was the case here. If a group of kids are throwing baseball sized stones, someone can be killed.

Yes, cameras can be replaced, but they are there for a purpose as SECURITY cameras. What goes on in the meantime is at issue. Their attack on the defensive perimeter put the lives of these soldiers in jeopardy.

Why do you keep saying "small" children. I know teens who are over 6'0" tall.

We are not talking about children inside homes. In a combat area, when people are shooting, lots of folks nearby get killed. It sucks.

The difference between settler children and those attacking the IDF should be obvious. Sitting in a home or going to school are not attacks on armed men.

[Violet_Crumble]

34. You didn't clarify anything...

You just kept on justifying why it's okay to kill children.

How do you protect children when they put themselves on the front line and attack soldiers? Shouldn't their parents do some protecting too?

What front line?? There is no front line. We're talking about residential areas where these people live. But no, obviously the answer is to shoot kids who throw stones and blame their parents for not keeping them under 24/7 surveillance...


Throwing stones can be minor or very dangerous. Neither of us know which was the case here. If a group of kids are throwing baseball sized stones, someone can be killed.

So if someone can't be sure what size a stone is that's being thrown towards them, it's obvious they're justified in shooting anyone who could be throwing even the smallest pebble, just in case it could turn out to be a killer-boulder? Oh-kay...

Yes, cameras can be replaced, but they are there for a purpose as SECURITY cameras. What goes on in the meantime is at issue. Their attack on the defensive perimeter put the lives of these soldiers in jeopardy.

So the possible risk to a SOLDIER is worth the certain death of a CHILD? If there's so much concern for the lives of soldiers, the obvious thing to do is to put a stop to the occupation. That way no-one gets killed...

Why do you keep saying "small" children. I know teens who are over 6'0" tall.

Because I'm talking about those little creatures commonly referred to as small children. Y'know, the ones that get killed by the IDF along with the larger children. The ones you said in a previous post shouldn't be aware of what's going on around them but whose parents are to blame for not keeping them safe...

Which leads to the next point...

We are not talking about children inside homes. In a combat area, when people are shooting, lots of folks nearby get killed. It sucks.

Yes we were because you said the parents of small children should be keeping them safe and I pointed out that small children have been killed inside their own homes. But I guess when someone's home is conveniently decreed to be part of a combat zone, anything's acceptable...


The difference between settler children and those attacking the IDF should be obvious. Sitting in a home or going to school are not attacks on armed men.

Palestinian children have been shot sitting in their homes and going to school so there's absolutely no difference...

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

37. Under some circumstances

It is legit to kill someone who attacks you.

What front line? They were stoning soldiers and attacking a security point. What front line?

No, you are wrong about the stones. Stones can harm you, knock you out or kill you. The question is, is some little kid throwing a pebble or are several people throwing rocks at you with the intent and some likelihood to seriously harm you. (As an aside, if a stone knocks you out, you likely won't ever wake up.)

Do you honestly think the end to Israeli appearance on the West Bank will end violence? Com on, that won't end anything. It will simply make it easier for the Palestinians, but keep it hard for Israel as the terror groups relocate some of their activities.

I personally think all of Israel and West Bank and Gaza are all what amounts to a combat zone, but there are ways to minimize the danger. Letting your kids attack a military outpost is not wise.

Yes, Palestinian children do get shot in horrible locations. (Is there a good location?) But we are back to the question of deliberately targeting children who are going to school or eating pizza, as the Palestinian terrorist do, and shooting back at those who attack a military emplacement.

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

40. Show me where this front line is on a map...

Or do you think that anywhere an Israeli soldier is in the Occupied Territories is the front line? Even if there was a front line, that doesn't justify killing children for throwing stones. It's also illegal under international law, and though you will likely insist that international law is irrelevant and stupid, the reality is that Israel's a party to quite a few Conventions regarding children. Not to mention the Fourth Geneva Convention....

Also, aren't security points fortified? Why are troops shooting to kill?

Of course an end to the occupation would bring an end to most if not all of the violence. You've got to try bringing up some rational and realistic arguments for why it wouldn't. I'm curious. If you think ending the occupation won't bring any let-up in the violence, why have you said you support a two-state solution? Both yr comments contradict each other from what I can see...

You keep on justifying the killing of Palestinian children while insisting there's no justification for the killing of Israeli children. They're all children, Muddle, and selecting one group and adopting a callous and heartless attitude towards them doesn't put the person taking that attitude in a very good light. The only point we do agree on is that the killing of Israeli children is totally unjustifiable. So here's an example of the killing of a Palestinian child that I'd like to see you try to justify. I guess you'll blame the parents, blame the children, blame everyone but the soldiers who murdered these children, but I live in hope that you won't :)

Khalil Ibrahim al-Mughrabi. On 7 July 2001 three children were shot by IDF sniper fire as they were flying kites and playing soccer in an open space near the border fence at Rafah. Khalil Ibrahim al-Mughrabi, age11, was killed by a high-velocity bullet in the head. Ibrahim Kamel Abu Sussain, age 10, and 13-year-old Suleiman Turki Abu Rijal were also shot and both sustained serious injuries in the abdomen and in the testicles, respectively. The shots came from an IDF post about 800 metres away, and the boys were in a large, open space. According to testimonies given to Amnesty International by Ibrahim Kamel Abu Sussain and by other children who were present at the time of the incident, there were no disturbances or clashes in the area at that time. The IDF claimed that there had been rioting and throwing of fragmentation grenades in the area at the time, but confidential IDF records showed that this was untrue. On 8 November 2001, the IDF informed the Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem that it had decided not to initiate an investigation of the incident because there was no suspicion of criminal behaviour by the soldiers. However, a file was attached to the IDFs response, apparently in error, which contained internal records of the IDFs operational de-briefings and the opinions of the IDF Southern Command Judge Advocate and of the Chief Military Prosecutor. These documents, which have been made public by B'Tselem, show that the IDF, in spite of the evidence, decided not to order a Military Police investigation and cleared the soldiers who killed Khalil al-Mughrabi and injured the two other children, and that in its response to B'Tselem the IDF deliberately presented an incorrect version of the incident

and here's one carried out by settlers for you to try to justify or try to tell me is a completely different circumstance than the killing of Israeli children:


On 19 July 2001, Diya Marwan Tmeizi, a baby of almost four months from the village of Idna (near Hebron), was killed when the car he was travelling in with his family on their way home from the wedding of relatives, was shot at by Israeli settlers. Two other family members were also killed in the attack, and five were wounded, including two-year-old Amira. The attack happened not far from the Tarqumiya roadblock, but the soldiers manning the roadblock did not stop the killers' car when it fled. The attack was claimed by a group which called itself the Committee for Road Safety which is reportedly linked to the outlawed Jewish right-wing group Kach.



http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engMDE020052002?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES%

You should really read the entire report because it's a real eye-opener...

Violet...

[The Magistrate]

35. A Little Clarity Of My Own, Sir

It does not seem reasonable to me to suppose that in the matters referenced above, the soldiers were in genuine fear for their lives. It seems to me most likely they were angered, frustrated, and grown bitter at a morally corrosive task, and under this strain, lost their tempers. It would surprise me very much if the men who fired did not feel profound regret the instant they saw the result of their surrender to rage.

[The Magistrate]

21. Mr. Muddle, Ma'am

Makes here a sound if brutal point, that ought not to be dismissed.

Throwing rocks at men with guns is a mug's game, and no good can come of it. It is an essential strategy of guerrilla war to provoke security services into atrocious action, as this both rallies political support to the guerrillas among the people they have elected themselves the vanguard of, and tends to weaken political support for the security services in the polity being assailed by the guerrillas. There is no doubt that this is the intention of those who encourage and inspire such actions by Arab Palestinian youths, and it cannot be reasonably denied that such efforts are made by elements of that polity. The soldiers should, certainly, not give in to the provocation directed at them in such instances, but it is inevitable that some will do so. Insurance companies, after all, are run on that principle. Just as, if you have a thousand people running stamping presses in a factory, you may know to a certainty one or two will lose fingers in the course of a year, and calculate premiums accordingly, similarly if you have a thousand soldiers on outpost duties showered with rocks over the course of a year, you may be certain that one or two of them will sucumb to rage and pull a trigger. There is indeed a share of blame to be apportioned in such instances to those who glorify martyrdom and futile displays of resistance, in such a way as to inspire children to such actions. In the case referenced above particularly, there is also a heavy share of blame to be apportioned to the commanders who, if the report is accurate, have not equipped these soldiers with less lethal means of dispersing the youths.

[Violet_Crumble]

23. Many more words don't make a justification of killing kids any better...

Kids throw stones. There is NO justification for killing them. That's why his callous justification of the killing of children in a conflict is dismissed....

Violet...

[The Magistrate]

26. It Is Not A Justification, Ma'am

Merely a setting out of the totality of the circumstance.

It is not wise to consider anything in isolation.

[Violet_Crumble]

27. Sorry, but it was...

When a 'totality of the circumstance' justifies the killing of kids by shovelling blame elsewhere in equal portions, it's nothing more than a rather more flowery sounding justification...

on edit: just thought I'd add that ascribing the motives of kids throwing stones to being done at the behest of those who glorify martyrdom is a pretty big assumption. When it comes to teenagers, it's more than likely that the way they see themselves and others treated on a daily basis by the IDF is a likely motive...



Violet...

[The Magistrate]

28. But The Responsibility Is Somewhat Difuse, Ma'am

It is not like these young men woke up in the morning consumed by evil desire to extinguish a life, and could not rest till they had done so.

They were placed in a situation, by a variety of factors, in which sooner or later the thing was likely to occur.

There are indeed persons who coldly hope such things will occur, for it serves their own political-cum-military purpose, and these make a great contribution to such instances.

It is a fact that guerrilla war, particularly in the "peoples war" incarnation so favored by modern practitioners after the success of Mao, makes concious use of children as a tool of war, and to gain precisely the reaction this report has gotten.

To point these things out is not to excuse the young men from responsibility for their actions; it is their responsibility to stand up under provocation, as it is the responsibility of anyone.

[Violet_Crumble]

29. Children as tools of war...

In that case it can be argued that Sharon makes conscious use of children as a tool of war because the govt of Israel encourages families to move to the Occupied Territories knowing full well that violent attacks are likely to occur...


Violet...

[The Magistrate]

30. It Is A Less Direct Use, Ma'am

But the point might be sustained.

There is some question whether the intent of the settlements is to draw attacks, although attacks can be expected.

There is no question that the intent of glorifying martyrdom and displays of futile resistance is to draw gunfire, and produce dead youths to further the cult that moved them to the place of their deaths.

[rini]

8. Exactly,

Thank you for making my point. Israelis do not deliberately target innocent children.

[Violet_Crumble]

9. Wrong...

The IDF and some Israeli settlers in the Occupied Territories DO
Violet...

[rini]

12. of course

people are people. I was discussing gov't policy.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. And we're talking about what actually happens...

...to CHILDREN. You appear to be trying to justify the killing of children. I find that really disturbing...

Violet...

[Resistance]

10. yeah right

I guess we're supposed to believe that of the 400 Palestinian children that Israel has killed in the past 3 years, none have been deliberately targeted (check the math on that - it's 11 kids killed every month). Uh-huh. Sure Rini.

[Aidoneus]

17. some material you might (or might not) be interested in

----------------

IDF Officer Etches Star of David on the Arm of Qassem 'Awisat, with Glass Shards, at Seida Checkpoint, Tulkarm district, The West Bank, 30 April, 2003
http://www.btselem.org/english/Testimonies/030430_Carving_of_David_Star.asp

----------------

Abuse of Samer a-Sharif and a Teenaged Boy and the Assult of Two Journalists by Border Police Officers, Nablus, 21 January, 2003
http://www.btselem.org/english/Testimonies/030121_Beatings_Abuse_and_assault_of_photographer_in_Nablus.asp

----------------

The Beating of Bilal Hafnawi, 16, by Border Police Officers and Soldier, and Prevention of Medical treatment, Nablus, 20 January. 2003
http://www.btselem.org/english/Testimonies/030120_Abuse_of_High_School_Students_In_Nablusa.asp

----------------

The Beating of Ziyad a-Shaloudi, age 15, by IDF Soldiers in Hebron, 7 January, 2003
http://www.btselem.org/english/Testimonies/030107_Beating_of_Ziyad_a-Shalloudi_in_Hebron.asp

----------------

The Beating of Muhammad Da'ana, age 13, by IDF Soldiers in Hebron, 23 January, 2003
http://www.btselem.org/english/Testimonies/030123_Beatings_of_Muhammad_Daana_by_IDF_Soldiers.asp

----------------

Red Crescent Ambulance Crew Attacked and Delayed by Border Police Officers in Hebron, 17 November 2002
http://www.btselem.org/english/Testimonies/021117_Border_Police_Detain_Ambulance_and_Beat_Staff.asp

----------------

AN eight-year-old Palestinian girl shot dead by Israeli troops in the central Gaza Strip was killed while showing off her new school uniform to friends, the youngster's grieving mother said today.

Some 1500 people gathered in Khan Yunis for the funeral of Aaya Mahmud Fayaad, who relatives and witnesses said was hit by bullets fired from an Israeli observation post on the edge of a Jewish settlement

--snip--

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,7127339%5E1702,00.html

----------------

This much was the product of not much effort, I could produce more if you'd like.

[DuctapeFatwa]

36. The most compelling defense of the killing of these children

Would come from those who are parents AND actively campaigning to change the law in their own community to mandate automatic death penalty for juvenile vandalism, and authorize law enforcement personnel to apply this penalty without subjecting the community to the expense of lengthy trials.

[rini]

38. oh my G-d

why not cut off their hands for theft/tongues for backtalking parents and teachers/ talk about vigilante justice.

[DuctapeFatwa]

39. Should Palestinian children receive harsher punishment than your own?

I would never accuse anyone on this board of being such a despicable hypocrite that they would suggest that their own dear little ones should receive a more lenient punishment if they should (heaven forbid) throw rocks.

I am assuming that everyone who is able to find excuses for the dead Palestinian children is saying no more or less than they would say were they themselves presented with the mortal remains of their own progeny.