Poll: 75% of Israeli Arabs support Jewish, democratic constitution

[oberliner]

A vast majority of Israeli Arabs would support a constitution that maintained Israel's status as a Jewish and democratic state while guaranteeing equal rights for minorities, according to a poll whose results were published on Sunday.

Among the 507 people who participated in the poll, some 75 percent said they would agree with such a definition while 23 percent said they would oppose it.

The Israel Democracy Institute (IDI), a non-partisan research institute who commissioned the poll, said the results were proof that a constitution that maintained Israel's status as a Jewish and democratic state could win the support of the Israeli Arab public.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/853564.html

[Jim Sagle]

1. But...but...but THAT would mean those who bitch and moan about the existence of a Jewish state are

(gasp!!!!!!) full of SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who woulda thunk it? :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[rockymountaindem]

2. They'll probably claim the source is biased n/t

[richards1052]

3. How can Arabs be "equal" in a Jewish state?

I'm not quite sure I agree that Israel can remain an exclusivist Jewish state AND grant "equal rights" to its Arab minority. I'd be in favor of a democratic Constitution that guaranteed equal rights to both ethnic groups while protecting their respective languages, cultures & religions. But how do you get an Arab to sing Hatikvah or accept that he must learn Hebrew to get along & ahead while his Jewish fellow citizen will be under no need or obligation to learn Arabic? How will Islam or even Christianity fare in a country for which the Jewish religion remains dominant? How will you rein in the Jewish theocracy that governs far too many civil functions? To be "equal" means that no one ethnic group should be superior. How do you have a Jewish state in which Jews are NOT superior?

I'm not arguing that Israel should become a place in which Judaism is not welcome or discriminated against. I'm advocating a state in which Arabs & Islam have co-equal status with Judaism & Jews.

[Douglas Carpenter]

4. let's not forget Christians as well -- The are a significant minority

I agree with you in principle. But can you imagine a scenario in which that vision can be made reality?

And I would ask, how you would answer those who charge this is an attempt to "destroy Israel"?

[bemildred]

5. Consistency won't get you far in political debate.

"Separate but equal" has a long and illustrious history. Or perhaps that should be "Different but equal." Or "Not equal but equal" as you point out. What one would like, of course, is that the law treat everyone the same. It seems much simpler when you put it that way. Individuals may do as they like, but the law must treat them all the same.

[pelsar]

10. how can jews be equal in a christian country?

how can mexicans, muslims be equal in christian UK or the US (remind me again whats written on the coins)....why is it that vietnamese immigrants have to learn english?....

your argument holds no water......as every democratic country in the world has a dominate culture....israel is no different.

[Douglas Carpenter]

12. I suspect the question seems to be one of definition

the poll mentioned above indicates that most Palestinian citizens of Israel have no fundamental problem with the phrase "a Jewish and democratic state". But other polls indicate that they do have a problem with an explicitly Zionist state which most Arab people would interpret to mean a Jewish-supremest state; a state apparatus which exercises its power by for and of the Jews at the expense of non-Jews.

Can there be a Jewish state without it being a Jewish-supremest state?

In a less than perfect analogy, the French state goes to great effort to support, protect, promote and even enshrine French culture. But there is nothing constitutionally which exults French citizens of French ancestry above other citizens.

I would also guess that most Palestinian citizens of Israel would welcome a written constitution that constitutionally bans discrimination against them in clear and unmistakable terms.

here was an analysis from another poll on the confliction:

"But despite their claims of support for a Jewish state, "What they don't agree to is a Zionist state, meaning a state which has the right to preserve its Jewish majority," Prof. Sammy Smooha, one of three sociologists who made the poll, told The Jerusalem Post. "They accept there is a Jewish majority but not that the state has a policy and law of return to preserve and increase the majority."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1139395572629&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

.

[pelsar]

15. samething as all democratic countries...

i would expect in the US that they will do what they can to keep it a "white christian country".....as opposed to a "black muslim" one. France already has anti-democratic laws about preserving their "culture".

....that israel will enact non democratic laws to preserve the jewish majority (that is the implicit meaning of the "zionistic state") remains to be seen. In the meantime its becoming more and more liberal

[Douglas Carpenter]

19. I hope so. But do worry about some of the trends

In the mean time a written constitution makes it unmistakably clear that discrimination would be forbidden would be a great step forward.

"According to the polls that undertaken in previous years by the Haifa University and other academic bodies, it has become clear that there is a rise in racist incidents," the organization charged.

link to full story: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3231048,00.html

The poll presented Wednesday showed that 68 percent of respondents said they do not wish to live next to an Arab neighbor, compared with 26 percent who said they would agree.

Responding to a question about Arab friends, 46 percent said they would not be willing to have Arab friends who would visit them at their home.

Some 63 percent of the Jewish public sees Arab civilians as a security and demographic threat, and 34 percent of the Jewish public sees Arab culture as inferior compared to Israeli culture. Half of the population, according to the poll, is anxious and uncomfortable when hearing Arabic on the street.

____________

Full Story - link: http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3350467,00.html

The poll showed that 75 percent of Jewish students believe that Arabs are uneducated people, are uncivilized and are unclean.

On the other hand 25 percent of the Arab youth believe that Jews are the uneducated ones, while 57 percent of the Arab's believe Jews are unclean.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

26. It already has such laws, doesn't it?

Isn't it far easier for a Jew who's never been there to become an Israeli citizen than an Arab who used to live there until they were driven out when Israel was founded?

[Douglas Carpenter]

6. and 76 percent described Zionism as racist -- interesting anaylsis of the confliction

"Among the Arab respondents, 76 percent described Zionism as racist.

But more than two thirds said they would be content to live in Israel as a Jewish state, if it existed alongside a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=839029

actually polls of Israeli-Arabs tend to show rather conflicting results. Some of the results can be disturbing.

Poll: Israeli Arabs happy with Hamas win - link:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1139395572629&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

"Two-thirds of Israeli Arabs were pleased with Hamas's win but even more believe the State of Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish and democratic state, according to a survey presented at a conference Thursday about the trends of the Arab voters at the University of Haifa.

But despite their claims of support for a Jewish state, "What they don't agree to is a Zionist state, meaning a state which has the right to preserve its Jewish majority," Prof. Sammy Smooha, one of three sociologists who made the poll, told The Jerusalem Post. "They accept there is a Jewish majority but not that the state has a policy and law of return to preserve and increase the majority."

The poll was taken by the Jewish-Arab Center and the School of Political Sciences at the University of Haifa in the first week of March - a day after the attack by an emotionally distraught Jewish man on the Basilica of the Annunciation in Nazareth, which police later said was not nationalistically motivated.

It surveyed 500 Arab voters who voted in the last elections. The results showed that 69.5% believed that the state of Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish and democratic state, were not different from previous years, said Smooha. "We got the same results to that question in October 2003 and October 2004."

Only 3.4% of the 500 Arab citizens of Israel polled by phone felt that the Israeli government treats them as equal citizens. Some 49% said the government treats them as second-class citizens and 24% as hostile citizens who don't deserve equal rights."

[Shaktimaan]

7. easier said than done

I've brought up some of the core problems with true equality in Israel a few times in this forum. No one has ever responded to my comments. I am not against full equality, far from it. But it is easy to demand equality when you don't have to solve any of the sticky problems that come along with it.

Here's a classic one.

Military service within Israel is compulsory. The problem with having Arab conscription is that it puts their interests at odds with each other. Can you demand that all Israeli Palestinians take up arms against people that may very well be their own extended families? However no one would assert that Israel is not in need of the military that they have, it has been the difference between existence and not in the past.

Equal rights goes hand in hand with equal responsibility. And it is paradoxes like these, not any desire to keep Israeli Arabs downtrodden that forms the basis of the kind of institutionalized discrimination that exists, (for the most part.)

The overall question is less about equal rights than it is about nationality. How can you form a modern Israel that the Arab citizens want to be a part of as much as the Jewish ones do without destroying Israel's raison d'etre? How do you balance those rights and responsibilities? Would these 75% of all Israeli Arabs still support this new constitution if it meant mandatory military service (or social alternatives?)

[Douglas Carpenter]

8. I would doubt they IDF would want 20% of their military made up of people who

overwhelmingly oppose policies that the IDF enforces

"While 89 percent said they view Israel's bombing of Lebanon as a war crime, only 44 percent said they see Hezbollah's attacks on Israel as such. Hezbollah pelted northern Israel with nearly 4,000 rockets.

Half of Israeli Arab respondents said Hezbollah's capture of Israel Defense Forces reserves soldiers Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev in a cross-border raid was justified. That incident sparked the 34-day conflict." While 89 percent said they view Israel's bombing of Lebanon as a war crime, only 44 percent said they see Hezbollah's attacks on Israel as such. Hezbollah pelted northern Israel with nearly 4,000 rockets.

- link: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=839029
___________

"Two-thirds of Israeli Arabs were pleased with Hamas's win but even more believe the State of Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish and democratic state, according to a survey presented at a conference Thursday about the trends of the Arab voters at the University of Haifa.

But despite their claims of support for a Jewish state, "What they don't agree to is a Zionist state, meaning a state which has the right to preserve its Jewish majority," Prof. Sammy Smooha, one of three sociologists who made the poll, told The Jerusalem Post. "They accept there is a Jewish majority but not that the state has a policy and law of return to preserve and increase the majority." link:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1139395572629&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

.

[Shaktimaan]

13. My point exactly.

only 44 percent said they see Hezbollah's attacks on Israel as such.

So many Israeli Arabs are not exactly supporters of the Israeli state. You see my point here, right?

As you said, many Israeli Arabs are not supportive of IDF policies. OK, but neither are many Israelis. They do their duty anyway because, well, it's their duty. What you are saying is that the IDF could not trust Israeli Arabs to do their duty because their loyalties are conflicted. This is not a criticism. If I were Israeli Arab I would have an extremely hard time fighting for Israel, especially since it would be against Arabs most of the time. Nevertheless, this issue exists, as do many others.

And if we are going to talk about equal rights, REAL equal rights, then we must address other issues such as nationalism and loyalty. It is unreasonable to expect equality in one area and not in others. Equal rights also means equal sacrafice. To just say, "well, the Israeli Arabs don't really support Israel against other Arab states, when push comes to shove," is not really an adequate reason to expect them to contribute less than their Jewish counterparts. It is a problem that must be addressed. It requires solving what is perhaps an unsolvable problem.

This IDF issue is ultimately a symptom of a much larger problem. Because if Israeli Arabs are not loyal to the state, then equality is going to have a tough time coming to fruition, regardless of IDF policy or whether or not they are expected to serve. Civil rights in America never had this problem. But France and the Netherlands especially are seeing a variation of it currently as they struggle with their own recent immigrant issues.

[Douglas Carpenter]

14. the resolution is a much more long term issue

polls indicate that Arab people (in this case "Israeli-Arabs") can accept the concept of a "Jewish and democratic state". What they cannot accept is a Jewish-supremest state that exercises its power by, for and of the Jews even at the expense of non-Jews who in this case are not immigrants like those in the Netherlands or France, but native indigenous people.

It would be hard to imagine Palestinian citizen of Israel singing a national anthem and bowing to flag that excludes them.

It would be even harder to imagine Palestinian citizens of Israel feeling competely loyal to a state with a land policy and demographic policy of maximum land, minimum Arabs.

If such changes could be made, which of course cannot happen over night. I believe Israel would not only win loyalty from its Arab citizens, it would go a long way to winning regional acceptance and thus greater security. Regional acceptance and greater security would greatly reduce threats both domestically and from their neighbors.

.

[Shaktimaan]

16. well,

give me an example of how the state now exercises its power in a way that excludes its Arab population, I am not sure of what you mean. Is the Hatikva or the flag any more exclusive than Americas counterparts are for the Native American population?

It seems to me that in all of these scenarios Israel is expected to make great concessions for what is ultimately a far from certain conclusion. Israel is expected to vacate the territories in entirety for example, before peace can be discussed in any real way. Here, Israel must change its very foundation and meaning with the hope that then its native population will see fit to adopt it emotionally? That's not normally how it works. If the Israeli Arabs were able to commit to Israel in a way that demonstrated their desire to become fully contributing members of society they would be in a much better position to make their demands.

Israel, like all nations, abides by their interests. Israel could change in the way described. But only if it is shown to be in their best interests to do so. That will require work on the part of the Israeli Arabs. What is "just" for you or I or anyone else is endlessly debatable. Realistically, the only way to expect a democratic nation like Israel, which acts according to the desires and interests of its population, to change so dramatically would be if the Israeli Arabs were able to show that their demands were for the good of the nation and not just themselves.

[Douglas Carpenter]

17. personally I believe that such changes would be for the benefit of all

And even if personal affection and identify with the state the state is not very strong among the approximately 20% of the indigenous population within the green line, Palestinian with Israeli citizenship have been for the most part, a quiet and compliant citizenry. And whatever concession Israel would make are minor compared to what the Palestinians have lost and minor still compared to the benefits of reconciliation.

The alternative is a situation in which all citizens of Israel live in endless and mutual threat and fear.

It sounds utopian right now. But imagine a situation in which Israeli Jews are genuinely integrated into the region and no longer has reason to fear their fellow citizens or their neighbors.

Lunch in Damascus - link: http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1160256257/

07/10/06

"ONCE, WHILE traveling in a taxi, I had an argument with the driver - a profession associated in Israel with extreme right-wing views. I tried in vain to convince him of the desirability of peace with the Arabs. In our country, which has never seen a single day of peace in the last hundred years, peace can seem like something out of science fiction.

Suddenly I had an inspiration. "When we have peace," I said, "You can take your taxi in the morning and go to Damascus, have lunch there with real authentic Hummus and come back home in the evening."

He jumped at the idea. "Wow," he exclaimed, "If that happens, I shall take you with me for nothing!"

"And I shall treat you to lunch," I responded.

He continued to dream. "If I could go to Damascus in my car, I could drive on from there all the way to Paris!"

.

[Shaktimaan]

18. But for this to occur

It sounds utopian right now. But imagine a situation in which Israeli Jews are genuinely integrated into the region and no longer has reason to fear their fellow citizens or their neighbors.

it would mean that the issue creating so much strife is the treatment of Israeli Arabs. Which has never been a real issue. I don't think that treatment of Palestinians anywhere is really why there is so much ill will towards Israel anyway.

Do you really think this hatred of Israel is about the Palestinians? Really?

I have to ask then, why don't the Arab states treat their Palestinian refugees with a fraction of the equality or respect that Israel does for its Palestinians? I find it hard to believe that Lebanon hates Israel because of the treatment of her Palestinians when Lebanon's Palestinians are possibly treated the worst of any Palestinians anywhere.

Especially since they are treated so poorly BECAUSE it will have negative reprecussions on Israel. Is there any evidence to suggest that Arab acceptance is tied to Israeli treatment of Palestinians?

[Douglas Carpenter]

20. Israel happens to be located on very sensitive land in the center of the

Arab and Islamic world. If the Zionist project had been carried out in Uganda or Argentina, I doubt we would be having this forum right now.

After all the Muslim world recalls with great lore the days of the Crusades and their struggle against European Christendom over essentially the same piece of earth.

I can only say that in the early to mid-90's when a settlement looked imminent, there is no question that attitudes softened a great deal until it no longer looked like a settlement was possible.

Yes I do believe that if Israel came to be seen, perhaps still as a Jewish and democratic state, but not as a Jewish-supremest state it could change the entire paradigm.

.

[Shaktimaan]

22. we will have to agree to disagree.

Yes I do believe that if Israel came to be seen, perhaps still as a Jewish and democratic state, but not as a Jewish-supremest state it could change the entire paradigm.

Israel is by far the most democratic and the least ethno-centric nation in the region. So much so that the Israeli Arabs living there would far prefer to stay rather than be a part of a Palestinian state. On the internet, every day, I hear the worst kinds of mis-truths and outright lies related to Israeli treatment of Israeli Arabs which leads me to think that the reality of the situation has little bearing on people's attitudes.

Sure, if Israel came to be SEEN as something positive then some of the negativity towards it may dissipate. But how Israel is seen and what it is in reality are two very different things. If there was truth in how Israel was portrayed in the Arab world then perhaps Israel's actions could have an effect. But we are talking small potatoes here, changing the Hatikva and the flag... who cares? Really. It's bullshit.

Right of return is not bullshit however. And you are right, it is racist and supremist. As is every similar law in the majority of other states. There is a certain amount of hypocracy in demanding standards of Israel that are seldom met elsewhere on the planet. Especially since they are expected to do so to appease some of the most racist and oppresive states in existence. I mean, would the Arab states in question actually think they have standing to demand that Israel adjust it's already very democratic laws in pursuit of perfection when they rarely even bother paying lip service to such ideals for themselves? To think that they value Israeli treatment of Israeli Arabs when their own treatment of Palestinians is 100x worse?

Please.

Israel happens to be located on very sensitive land in the center of the Arab and Islamic world. If the Zionist project had been carried out in Uganda or Argentina, I doubt we would be having this forum right now.

After all the Muslim world recalls with great lore the days of the Crusades and their struggle against European Christendom over essentially the same piece of earth.


My point exactly. This has nothing to do with democracy. It has to do with pride and honor.

[Douglas Carpenter]

23. limits on an ethnic and democratic state

I suppose I simply don't agree that treatment of Palestinian citizens of Israel is quite as rosy as some would picture. And certainly the perception of Palestinian-Israelis seem to bare this out:

"Only 3.4% of the 500 Arab citizens of Israel polled by phone felt that the Israeli government treats them as equal citizens. Some 49% said the government treats them as second-class citizens and 24% as hostile citizens who don't deserve equal rights."
link: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1139395572629&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

"Among the Israeli-Arab respondents, 76 percent described Zionism as racist." link: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=839029

There are a number of reasons whey Palestinian citizens of Israel would prefer to remain in Israel. They have every reason to believe that a likely Palestinian state would be a week state with a week economy and gravely lacking in viability and genuine sovereignty and independence. Few Palestinians with Jordanian citizenship are interested in returning to a Palestinian state under such conditions.

I would not waste time claiming that the Arab states are wonderful. And I wouldn't believe it. But beyond the issues of formal democracy which are obviously lacking in all Arab states is the question of ones sense of inclusion in a society and to what extent one feels they are granted a sense of dignity by that society. Having spent about a decade in the Shiite land of Saudi Arabia. And I would certainly agree that Saudi Arabia is one of the least enlightened societies on earth, not only the Middle East. There the Shiites are most definitely discriminated against, are generally despised by the Sunni majority, suffer religious based agitation against them and are absolutely regarded with great suspicion as a potential fifth column. But relative to their society which is far, far from enlightened, democratic or liberal, I do not observe that they experience the particular kind of loathing disdain that Palestinian citizens of Israel seem to experience. And frankly I don't even believe that they experience anywhere near the level of discrimination relative to their society in matters of housing, employment and education.

Just taking a look at common Israeli-Jewish attitudes toward Palestinian citizens of Israel can look a bit disturbing:

"The poll showed that 75 percent of Jewish students believe that Arabs are uneducated people, are uncivilized and are unclean.

On the other hand 25 percent of the Arab youth believe that Jews are the uneducated ones, while 57 percent of the Arab's believe Jews are unclean." link: http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3350467,00.html
---

"The poll presented Wednesday showed that 68 percent of respondents said they do not wish to live next to an Arab neighbor, compared with 26 percent who said they would agree.
Responding to a question about Arab friends, 46 percent said they would not be willing to have Arab friends who would visit them at their home.
Some 63 percent of the Jewish public sees Arab civilians as a security and demographic threat.." link: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3231048,00.html
_________

Not so much has been written about Palestinian citizens of Israel. Of the two books that I have read, perhaps the most interesting was Susan Nathan's, "The Other Side of Israel: My Journey Across the Jewish/Arab Divide". It is the personal story of an Israeli Jewish English teacher and lifelong committed Zionist who moved into and still lives in the northern Galilee small Israeli-Arab city of Tamra as the only Jew among 25,000 Palestinian-Muslim Israeli citizens. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Other-Side-Israel-Journey-Across/dp/0385514565/ref=sr_1_1/102-8701952-4352901?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178005421&sr=1-1

And " Blood and Religion: The Unmasking of the Jewish and Democratic State by Jonathan Cook". Mr. Cook is a British reporter based in Nazareth and married to a Palestinian-Christian who is an Israeli Citizen. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Religion-Unmasking-Jewish-Democratic/dp/0745325556/ref=sr_1_1/102-8701952-4352901?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178005719&sr=1-1


.

[sabbat hunter]

9. the term is

israeli arabs. palestinian is a nationality. if you are israeli then you arent palestinian.

[Douglas Carpenter]

11. these polls of what is called Israeli-Arabs..many of these also call themselves Palestinian

some use the term; Palestinian-Israeli or Israeli-Palestinian or Palestinian citizens of Israel. The difference of terms reflect the conflictions. I happen to work with one fellow from Haifa and another from Nazareth. But they both call themselves Palestinian.

Almost all Palestinian citizens of Israel have family times with Palestinians in the Occupied Territories and in the diaspora.

[Shaktimaan]

21. Not necessarily.

Palestinian, as I understand it, refers to anyone who identifies themselves as being from or descended from people who were/are from historic Palestine. Which is why I often hear of Jordan's high Palestinian population. Or American citizens of Palestinian descent refer to themselves as "Palestinian" still. Palestinian is an identity first and foremost. It's not really an ethnicity, but it has come to be associated as an ethnic label as well as a national/political one.

[JohnLocke]

27. That's not accurate

There are plenty of Arab Israelis; that is, Israelis (the nationality) who belong to the Arab people (the ethnicity). Most of the Arabs in Israeli are Palestinian, which simply means people whose families originate in Palestine--a national subset of the Arab ethnic group.

[UndertheOcean]

24. Now there is a piece of refreshing good news!

Hope !

[Donald Ian Rankin]

25. What does "A Jewish State" mean?

If it means "a state the majority of whose citizens are Jews" then that's one thing. If it means "a state where Jews or Judaism are given special priveledges not accorded to other religions and their followers" that's quite another.

I live in a Christian country of the second type, the UK. I was made to sit through a compulsory "daily act of collective worship of a broadly Christian nature" in school most days from 5 to 18. That's not something that can be morally justified, I think.

I think it's clear that Israel will remain a Jewish state of the first type, though.

But if this poll didn't make clear which type it meant then it's worthless.

[IndianaGreen]

28. Religion and democracy are incompatible with one another

All religions have a darker side that holds views that are absolutist and promote exceptionalism and rigid orthodoxy.

The state and all of its institutions must remain secular if there is any hope of freedom and democracy.