A terrible, delusional, wasteful misjudgment

[bemildred]

Never believe people who protest: “I don’t want to say ‘I told you so’.” Of course they do. There is nothing more satisfying than to be vindicated. So here you go.

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Inevitably, I was deluged with e-mails accusing me of anti-Semitism (as if!), anti-Israeli bias and ignorance. Patronising readers told me that I had no understanding of Israel’s position in the Middle East. My warnings that Israel’s killing of nearly 1,000 Lebanese civilians and displacement of half a million would only add to the ranks of Hezbollah sympathisers and further inflame Muslim opinion against the West were dismissed as prejudice.

---

“The decision to respond with an immediate, intensive military strike was not based on a detailed, comprehensive and authorised military plan . . . The Government did not consider the whole range of options, including that of continuing the policy of ‘containment’, or combining political and diplomatic moves with military strikes below the ‘escalation level’, or military preparations without immediate military action.”

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The same boldness is needed now in the Middle East. Any negotiation will have to include Hamas as well as Fatah, the ultra-orthodox Shas party as well as Labour. Had Mr Blair remained even-handed last July, he could now be the perfect peacebroker. Instead, he will have to content himself with lecturing conventions of American mortgage brokers. What a waste.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/mary_ann_sieghart/article1744417.ece

[Warpy]

1. A lot of us told 'em so

and got flamed by the Israel First crowd.

Going after terrorists with an army is like trying to swat a fly with a Buick. You'll do a lot of damage you don't want to and the fly will buzz away.

[bemildred]

2. Yes, we did.

You do not defeat, you do not even weaken, well-armed, highly-motivated guerillas fighting on their own turf by attacking the civilian populations they live in with conventional arms, most particularly with bombardments. This borders on being a military cliche, yet it is always forgotten under political pressure and the need to "do something".

And it is as mistake, except under the most stringent conditions, to attack the well prepared positions of ones enemies at a time and place of their choosing.

[pelsar]

3. the mistake...

was tactical...the way it was done....


being attacked for 6 years and not responding was not a responsable policy by the state of israel towards its citizens.

[Malikshah]

4. So the mistake wasn't going to full-scale war, but rather the way in which it was carried out?

Or the lack of an effective end-game? Options?

Sounds like...nah, like fish in a barrel

Sounds like Olmert, Lipni, and scads of others both in Israel and in Washington DC need to go to their local libaries and read up on Sun Tzu.

One key aspect that is clar in the Art of War, is that war cannot be parceled out/parsed/divided in terms of 1) reasoning to go to war 2) methods used in war 3) exit strategies 4) nature of forces at war-- all are relevant and need to be taken into account before the last resort decision is made--

[pelsar]

5. definitly.....

6 years of being attacked across an intl border, terrorizing the inhabitants of the N. Israel (perhaps it wasnt in the news much because israel just let it citizens be killed) was not the responsable action of the state of israel.

perhaps you agree with the lack of action/response of israel, though the family members of the israelis killed over the years and the citizens of israel dont like being the "fish in the barrel"
__________________

I tend to doubt that olmert and perez read the Art of War....and Halutz seems to have believed in the fallacy of air power. Either way, the war was handled in a very amaturish way.....as the report has made it clear..and as probably every israeli knows.

1) reasons were obvious and clear
2) methods were wrong (tactical)
3)exit stragegy was confused
4) nature was known

[Malikshah]

6. Nope don't agree with violence on either side...

The logic used however would allow for the Abbas and other Palestinian leaders to use any and all forms of violence against Israel. After all, it's been almost six decades as opposed to six years.

Some how I don't think that was the goal of said "logic."

[pelsar]

7. wrong logic

israel up north is on its side of the intl border.....the palestinans and israel have an ongoing war with no set borders.....

so what is your theory?
israel wants lebanons water?
israel wants lebanese land?

its nice not agreeing to the violence on either side...so does that mean you agree to israel not retailiating and letting its citizens be terrorized and killed for the last 6 years and not doing anything about it?....or would you have a suggestion to the israeli govt on how to prevent it?

[Malikshah]

8. Wrong Logic? Let us put it to the test

6 years of being attacked across an intl border, terrorizing the inhabitants of the N. Israel (perhaps it wasnt in the news much because israel just let it citizens be killed) was not the responsable action of the state of israel.

60 years of being attacked, terrorizing the Palestinian inhaitants (perhaps it wasnt in the new much because Palestinians just let their citizens be killed) was not the responsable (sic) action of the Palestinian government.


perhaps you agree with the lack of action/response of israel, though the family members of the israelis killed over the years and the citizens of israel dont like being the "fish in the barrel"

perhaps you agree with the lack of action/response of the Palestinians, though the family members of the Palestinians killed over the years and the Palestinian citizenry dont (sic) like being the "fish in the barrel"

Funny that...a simple cut and paste and voila...In following the logic of the original post, this is the result. I don't agree or disagree with the results, but I suspect that, some will disagree with following that particular "logic."

[pelsar]

9. your confusing issues....

the lebanese/israeli border is an intl border with two states on either side.

the palestenians at present have no border, no state, a govt that as policy is sworn to the elimination of israel as a country......
____

at any rate the Palestenian/israeli war has its own dynamic that is not related to the lebanese/israel border.(cut and paste doesnt have much to do with logic..)
____

so back to that: your suggestion to israel and its citizens as to what to do with the attacks that were coming across the intl border from Hizballa...i didnt read it anywhere....

[Malikshah]

10. Borders--artificial creations Humans--natural creations

Somehow I think the latter is the issue that needs to be discussed front and center. My posts regarding the "logic" reflect this, proving my point.

Who is doing the confusing here? On edit: Who is attempting to do the confusing...

[pelsar]

11. you've proved nothing....

except that you do want to avoid the original issue and question that i have brought up twice and will now go for a third time:

what would have been your suggestion to israel in response to 6 years of attacks by hizballa across the intl border?

[bemildred]

12. This is the alternative:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x174249

I know you don't approve of it, but it isn't fair to say nobody has suggested an alternative when what you mean is you don't find the alternative acceptable.

[pelsar]

13. actually there are many alternatives....

i just like to see those who criticize come up with a couple.....as we discussed even the "I dont know"..is cool by me...just something rather than screaming war crimes and then slinking off when asked a couple questions.

[bemildred]

14. OK. I just think it needs to be recognized that the options are limited.

The failed policy of the last 6 years was an alternative to the failed policies of the preceeding 18 years.

[pelsar]

15. we're now going to see another alternative...

what the latest chief of staff has in mind is yet to be seen....probably a combo of hi tech and commando style/infantry tactics.....we'll see (as the body count increases)

[Malikshah]

16. Pesky facts can get in the way at times... just trying to avoid the tiresome obfuscation.

Just because someone states something over and over doesn't make it true.

Not gonna play that old game. Might want to try someone else.

Enjoy the oblivion.

[pelsar]

17. its the old "i'm not going to answer your questions because"...

ask a few relevant questions...and one gets every kind of answer except one that actually relates to question.

actually i've noticed a trend:
those on the "pro israel" side of the line, tend to answer all questions asked...those on the other side always seem to have a multitude of reasons why they dont have to/cant answer some of the simplist of questions.

and there are those in the middle who also tend to answer and discuss....

just an observation.

[Malikshah]

19. Fascinating. Can't say surprising, but fascinating.

My use of logic was called into question.

I responded.

I was told that I was wrong and other issue were raised.

I ignored the obfuscation ruse and repeated my point.

End of story.

I do not wish to play games. Human lives are being lost of such games.

If folks would like to explain how the logic I used was incorrect, then by all means.

Beyond that...enjoy the oblivion.

[pelsar]

18. its the old "i'm not going to answer your questions because"...

ask a few relevant questions...and one gets every kind of answer except one that actually relates to the question.

actually i've noticed a trend:
those on the "pro israel" side of the line, tend to answer the questions asked...those on the other side always seem to have a multitude of reasons why they dont have to/cant answer some of the simplist of questions.

and there are those in the middle who also tend to answer and discuss....

just an observation.