Christians to train in Israel advocacy

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"As the American Jewish community debates the pros and cons of a growing relationship between Jews and Christian supporters of Israel, the courtship is quietly growing more intimate.

On college campuses across the United States, Christian students are asking to join efforts to "make the case for Israel" alongside their Jewish counterparts, and this week their requests will begin to materialize.

A group of Christian Zionist students at a California university, will be trained this week in how to defend Israel in the face of campus attacks.

The training at California State University, Bakersfield is the first step toward establishing a college chapter of Christians United for Israel, a year-old organization based in San Antonio, Texas started by Evangelical Pastor John Hagee to rally Christians around support for Israel. The chapter will be the first of its kind. The hope is to establish similar "CUFI on Campus" chapters on college campuses across the United States.

Over the last few years, Hagee, author of several books about biblical prophecy and an opponent of territorial concessions to the Palestinians on biblical grounds, has a the face of the Christian Zionist movement, building close ties with several key Jewish organizations such as the American Israel Public Affairs Committee."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1178708600704&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[azurnoir]

1. Does the Jewish side of this union

understand that they are expected to renounce Judaism and become Christians when the Rapture happens? Personally I have never really understood this, if the Christians were to be successful in the crusade against Islam, just who are they coming after next?

[Shaktimaan]

5. well, you're looking at it from a certain set viewpoint.

Every aspect of Christianity, particularly when it comes down to its relationship with other faiths, isn't necessarily about JUST the rapture. Once you make the assumption that being Christian, conservative and a supporter of Israel means that you adhere to this single, crazy dogma, sure, the whole thing seems to make very little sense. But every Christian, even extremely devout ones, don't all see everything they do through the lens of Armageddon, and I doubt that many who are doing this have some ulterior motive, anti-Jewish or not. They are just doing what they feel is right.

As far as them coming after us next, give me a break. There are Christians that hate Jews out there, but these aint them. And the Christians that you hear spouting anti-Semitic rhetoric aren't doing it because they are really Christian or anything like that. They are doing it because they are anti-semitic. It's not a chicken or egg thing. Anti-semitism comes first. Religion is the justification. For instance, those missionaries in Burma I met once, I can guarantee you, when they are back at home they are not wearing white hoods or plotting a way to keep America white. There's plenty of Christians out there that hate Jews. These aint them.

[msmcghee]

7. Nail, meet head.

"And the Christians that you hear spouting anti-Semitic rhetoric aren't doing it because they are really Christian or anything like that. They are doing it because they are anti-semitic. It's not a chicken or egg thing. Anti-semitism comes first. Religion is the justification." Shaktimaan

People believe what feels good to them. They then use their brains to justify it, whatever that takes.

[barb162]

10. Not all Christians by any stretch subscribe to fundamentalist

beliefs and I suspect there's a huge variation about the rapture even among fundamentalists, whoever they are and however they define themselves and whether even some of them have rapture in thier belief system.

[Scurrilous]

2. When we let John Hagee speak for us

<snip>

"In March, when the American Israel Public Affairs Committee departed from past policy and gave Hagee a prime slot at its national convention in Washington, his new status in the Jewish community was confirmed. I am an admirer and supporter of AIPAC, but this decision was a mistake for two reasons.

The first is the way that Hagee's appearance would be perceived on Capitol Hill. The central principle of Israel advocacy for half a century has been that support of Israel must be broad and bipartisan, and this means appealing to the Republican and Democratic mainstream and avoiding identification with controversial minorities in either party.

Second, and even more worrisome, was the question of how Hagee's AIPAC speech would be interpreted by the Jewish community. My fear was that it would confer legitimacy on him and that local communities would be tempted to embrace him as AIPAC had, in the process alienating many Jews, including most young Jews -- and this is precisely what has happened.

We know a great deal about Jewish young adults. We have learned from extensive research that these young people are often more socially liberal than their baby-boomer parents. They are pluralistic in their thinking, and they are tolerant of difference, especially differences in gender and sexual orientation.

They respond negatively to those who disparage other religious traditions and who make exclusivist religious claims. They are insistently centrist in their political views on the Middle East. And they are suspicious of a Jewish establishment that they see as too focused on money and insufficiently focused on values.

And so whom do we offer to these young people as a spokesman for Israel? John Hagee, who is contemptuous of Muslims, dismissive of gays, possesses a triumphalist theology and opposes a two-state solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict. If our intention was to distance our young adults from the Jewish state, we could not have made a better choice."

http://web.israelinsider.com/Views/11379.htm

[IndianaGreen]

3. Praise be to Jay-Zeus! Let the Jews be converted, or die for their unbelief!

To those suckers that are embracing the Christian Zionist rightwing, I suggest they read the Christian literature about the so-called "End Times." According to their insane and creepy belief in the Book of Revelation, Jay-Zeus is coming back to exact revenge on the world. All those that refuse to convert to the "One True Faith" by accepting a man as GAWD, will be slain. Specifically, Jews will be slain if they reject their Divine Christian Messiah.

It is the ultimate goal of Christian belief to obliterate all other religions and their followers, particularly Judaism. I don't know of any Christian denomination that has rejected this dark aspect of their theology, although the traditional denominations tend to downplay it, or reject its literal interpretation. If you thought Hitler was bad, you ain't seen nothing yet. This is what is in the Christian "New Testament," particularly in their "End Times" writings, and this is the theology that the Christian fundies all adhere to.

The blowback will be spectacular! Don't say you weren't warned!

[Shaktimaan]

6. You know.

I always find it odd when some people that identify themselves as "liberal" are able to totally abandon what I see as some of the main tenets of liberalism and make these incredibly predjudiced, uninformed, blanket statements of the most demeaning kind when it comes to Christianity. What's more disturbing is that they get a pass on it so often.

I never thought that the thing that seperated liberal from conservative had to do with the specific issues so much as being about a different way of approaching the questions. A fundamentally different ideology. And a rejection of small-minded, conservative, knee-jerk reactionism is central to it in my opinion. I don't think you can just take a monologue that could have been written by Archie Bunker and replace the words Black and Jew with Christian and Republican in order to end up with something other than an Archie Bunker monologue.

You know how some conservative morons say stuff like "The liberals hate America." in forums all over the place? You know how dumb it makes them look, right?

[wellst0nev0ter]

8. Hmm, I'm A Christian And A Liberal

And somehow, I'm not offended in the least bit. Gee, how did that happen? Was it because I'm enlightened enough to recognize the self righteous sins of my own brethren and the need for those sins to be repudiated harshly and repeatedly?

[msmcghee]

9. I'm always amused . .

. . by true believers who are "enlightened enough" to discern the "self righteous sins of their own brethren" who subscribe to a different brand of true-belief that inspires them to see "the need for those sins to be repudiated harshly and repeatedly".

Let's see some real Sunday mornin' repudiatin'.

:popcorn:

[wellst0nev0ter]

14. Could you use more scare quotes please?

I didn't quite get that :eyes:

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

4. Does anybody really believe that the...

...underlying motivation of people like Evangelical Pastor John Hagee in pressing for this so called defense of Israel has ANYTHING to do with a sincere and honest concern for the future welfare of Israeli citizens? Is this a man who would like to see an equal, fair and lasting peace between all peoples of the Middle East? If he had the power to bring about such a peace, without bloodshed, or suffering of any kind imposed on anyone, do you think he'd choose to exercise that power? He and his kind want WWIII, they want Rapture -- is this not obvious? Or do you simply not care about the agenda of those who claim to be your friend and defender?

[barb162]

11. I just looked at his web site, don't see the things you're bringing

up here.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

12. And therefore what?

[barb162]

15. And therefore, you may be quite wrong.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

17. From Wiki entry on Hagee under subtitle "Personal Beliefs":

Hagee has denounced replacement theology, believing that Romans 9, 10 and 11 teaches that Jews continue to have favor with God by the election of grace without necessarily believing in Jesus. Mr. Hagee believes that the Bible commands Christians to be supportive of Israel and the Jewish people <1>.

He believes that the land of Israel has never belonged to the Palestinian people. He teaches that the land was first called Palestine by the Romans, that there is no Palestinian language and that the Palestinians came from Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq and other Arab nations before 1948.

Hagee has said that Iran is a threat to Western civilization and does not believe that the "Islamofascist" mentality will ever respond favorably to diplomacy. He supports an American-Israeli pre-emptive strike on Iran to take out its nuclear capability and supports the Neo-Conservative movement in the United States.

Hagee's preaching is considered relatively traditional compared to some other televangelists. He asks his congregation to stand during the reading of the Biblical text prior to his sermon, and his style is often classified as "hellfire and brimstone". Hagee, like some other evangelical ministers, condemns literature such as J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter, calling it contemporary witchcraft.

Hagee denounces abortion and stopped giving money to Israel's Hadassah hospital when they began performing abortions <2>. He has also spoken out against homosexuality.

Hagee preaches that Russia and Islamic Nations are prophesized nations of the Antichrist, who will one day invade Israel. The Islamic Republic of Iran he cites as a shining example of how Islam is truly an enemy of Israel. In a discussion concerning Muhammad, he claims that Muhammad was a man of war and that this influence on Islam is the cause of the troubles of Jerusalem.

Theologically, Hagee believes in the "baptism of the Holy Spirit", the "absolute authority of the scripture", miraculous healing, anointing with oil, baptism by immersion, the importance of evangelism, and the "worship of the Lord through singing, clapping, and the lifting of hands".

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hagee


Tell me, barb, what would you say Mr. Hagee's true underlying motivation in pressing for this so called "defense" of Israel is?

[Tom Joad]

13. Hagee opposes any, even the smallest of compromises, with Palestinians

He says that all the land "belongs to the Jews", and to compromise at all would incur God's wrath.

Hagee was welcomed at aipac, the anti-Palestinian lobby.

[barb162]

16. Is Hamas talking compromise with Israel these days?

If so, could you show a link to us? Maybe this preacher is sizing up the situation with Hamas, if in fact he really said the things you mentioned in your post.

[Tom Joad]

18. Hagee wants Israel to keep all the West Bank and Gaza.

Is this something that you think would be helpful for Israel?

his views have nothing to do with any Palestinian leadership, he says that is what God wants, and Israel had better obey it, in his view. It has nothing to do with what people see is best for Israel, or best for all the people, but in Hagee's dogmatic view, his own fundamentalist approach to his bible.

http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=12291

Other pro-Israel leaders noted that CUFI officials have adamantly maintained that Israel has a right to all of the territories and opposed last year’s Israeli withdrawal from Gaza — positions that will almost certainly conflict with those of the new Israeli government.

“If they oppose the government, it’s an anti-Israel lobby as far as I’m concerned,” said Rabbi Eric Yoffie, president of the Union for Reform Judaism.

Rabbi Yoffie cautioned that CUFI, which will gather in Washington in July for its initial meeting — has yet to flesh out its positions. But he warned that “if we’re talking about a group that is going to oppose any territorial flexibility for Israel, we’re talking about a group that opposes the government of Israel and the clear will of its people. I would consider that dangerous to Israel.”

_______________________

Gary Bauer, anti-gay, anti-women rights extremist, who sits on the Board of CUFI, hagee's cult outfit, has said this:

We believe God owns the land and he has deeded it to the Jewish people, a deed that cannot be canceled by Yasser Arafat and cannot be amended - even by a president. This God has spoken clearly.

(source, AIPAC Policy Conference 2003 speech).

So for these people, no matter what Palestinians say, no matter what a US President might say, no matter what Isreali Jews say, they must not compromise.

These are friends of Israel?

[barb162]

19. I see this kind of talk coming from militants on the other side

Whether it comes from biblical, koranic or whatever pieces of paper or philosophy, there's a polarization occurring that does nobody on any side any good.