Eliyahu advocates carpet bombing Gaza

[Tom Joad]

Jerusalem Post

May. 30, 2007 21:24 | Updated May. 31, 2007 3:55
Eliyahu advocates carpet bombing Gaza

All civilians living in Gaza are collectively guilty for Kassam attacks on Sderot, former Sephardi chief rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu has written in a letter to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert.

Eliyahu ruled that there was absolutely no moral prohibition against the indiscriminate killing of civilians during a potential massive military offensive on Gaza aimed at stopping the rocket launchings.

The letter, published in Olam Katan , a weekly pamphlet to be distributed in synagogues nationwide this Friday, cited the biblical story of the Shechem massacre (Genesis 34) and Maimonides' commentary (Laws of Kings 9, 14) on the story as proof texts for his legal decision.

According to Jewish war ethics, wrote Eliyahu, an entire city holds collective responsibility for the immoral behavior of individuals. In Gaza, the entire populace is responsible because they do nothing to stop the firing of Kassam rockets. ... More
_______________________________

Advocacy of genocide. This is nothing less than that.

[mike_c]

1. ahh-- collective guilt, the cornerstone of collective punishment....

Round up ten villagers and kill them every time the Palestinians fight back.

[azurnoir]

2. So what does he

suggest be done to Germany or Poland or Russia? Nuke them? After all they did far more damage. By his logic it be collectively wiping out all of Europe east of the Danube, but i will bet he is mum on that.

[madrchsod]

3. i could almost feel sorry for olmert because

he has to put up with crazy assed guys like eliyahu but i won`t cause he deserves what ever happens to him.

[Scurrilous]

4. 'Declare Gaza hostile political entity'

Yisrael Beitenu chairman suggests new strategy on how to deal with Hamas. Plan includes harsher response to Qassams, cutting all ties with Gaza Strip, isolating area from West Bank

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3406842,00.html

<snip>

"In his plan, the deputy prime minister refers to the West Bank and Gaza as two separate entities, both on the political level and on the practical level.

Israel will address both entities separately. Any negotiation with the Palestinian Authority will only apply to the West Bank. "Gaza will be defined as a hostile independent political entity for all intents and purposes," Lieberman explained.

Lieberman suggested practical steps toward the implementation of his plan: There will be no movement between Gaza and the West Bank, not of goods, and not of people. This restriction of movement includes the Palestinian president's aides and Palestinians VIPs.

Workers will not be permitted to leave Gaza to work in Israel. Taxes for the Gaza Strip will not be collected. The Ashdod port will not transfer any goods to the Strip. All crossings, including Karni crossing will be sealed.

Israel will not provide Gaza authorities with any type of infrastructure or resource. The Gazans will have to find their own solutions to problems of fuel, water, and electricity.

Lieberman said that the process of complete severance of ties will begin in 2008, when all contact between Israel and Gaza will be cut off."

[breakaleg]

6. Does he realize this will backfire in Israel in a big way? It seems over-reacting is the only thing

Israel is capable of doing these days.

[Tom Joad]

8. This is seen, by some fanatical sites on the web, as just "common sense"

I won't mention where i saw that. ;-)

Most people can see the extremism of this "self-hating human" Cabinet minister, for others its just seen as "common sense".

The results of such a policy would be even more hunger in Gaza (as is acknowledged by Lieberman, who said in Bush-like idiocy "being part of the axis of evil comes with a heavy economic, political and security toll." )

Seems like the boys in the israeli cabinet room want more to chuckle over. Policies that deny basic needs to the Palestinian people are jokes to them.
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=9785

It would seem that Israel deserves much better leadership than it has now.

[msmcghee]

9. I'm not really clear on your this. Could you . .

. . explain why a state that has been under continuous violent attack from its neighbor with the intent to kill its citizens going on two years now, many of whom have died or been maimed by those attacks - a neighbor that states that they intend to keep up the attacks until Israel is destroyed - should provide that neighbor with electric power, sewage and other public services such as tax collection?

It seems that Israel is not only an imperialist / colonialist oppressor when they defend themselves - but also now when they don't aid their enemy directly with continuity of public services. Does that include cable? I'd hate to think that the cruel Israelis would deny the Palestinian people good TV coverage of the carnage and death caused by the rockets that (some) Palestinians are firing every day into Israel.

I haven't thought much about what Israel should do to defend its citizens at this point from the daily rocket barrages. It's a tough problem that I think is kind of up to Israel to work out. But you have some strong thoughts on this so maybe you could explain your reasoning here?

[breakaleg]

10. This is why.

"But the Israeli government retains control over all of Gaza's border crossings, except for the transit point to Egypt; the strip's airspace and coastal waters; and the population registry used to assign Palestinian identity cards. The United Nations continues to designate Gaza as occupied territory."

As if you didn't already know it.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/20/AR2007032001610.html

[msmcghee]

11. That's because all Gaza's border crossing except the one that . .

. . goes into Egypt, go into Israel. Imagine that. Not allowing people from a territory whose government's charter calls for your destruction - to freely enter your country.

[breakaleg]

14. Did you even read the article I linked?

At the top you would have found this:

"Israel declined to seek a change in Gaza's legal status with the United Nations following its September 2005 departure from the coastal territory, when it pulled out thousands of Jewish settlers and shut down its military government."

Israel is still legally responsible for Gaza. Period.

[msmcghee]

16. Yeah, and don't forget cable sevice too. n/t

[breakaleg]

20. Ok. So we've established that you care nothing for international law even in cases

where Israel recognizes they have legal obligations.

That about says it all.

[Igel]

23. Doesn't that mean Israel's responsible for security in Gaza?

So when the Hamas and Fatah goons were duking it out, the legal *requirement* was to send in Israeli troops to quell the violence and impose order.

Right?

But wouldn't that mean Israel would be shooting at Hamas and Fatah fighters, and killing a fair number? And, in the crossfire, civilians would die. Moreover, the transport needed to safely move the Israel troops would ruin water lines and tear up roads.

But if that's what international law requires, then so be it.

[breakaleg]

24. This hardly requires comment, but I'll waste 10 seconds....

Saying that Israel has legal obligations towards Gaza, which in that article Israel admitted, hardly specifies the exact actions to be taken in a specific case. Unless there is some specific law you are quoting, then by all means, let's see it. Otherwise, this is just a waste of space and doesn't even meet the minimum requirement to count as a sarcastic reply.

[richards1052]

27. False, as usual

"a territory whose government's charter calls for your destruction"

The PA charter does not call for Israel's destruction and it (the PA) is Palestine's government. The Hamas charter does. If you want to equate Hamas with the Palestinian government then this would mean that the Democrats are currently the U.S. government, which we all know they are not. Care with the facts doesn't exactly seem to be yr strong suit.

The charter was written in the 1980s & has absolutely no relevance or significance in terms of actual political practice. People who harp on this stupid issue should go back to the Democratic or Republican Party platforms of 1988 and tell me how seriously they are now adhered to by the respective parties.

No one likes the hate spewed in the Hamas charter. But if you seriously mean to tell me that Ismail Haniya takes out his copy every morning before he makes any political decision, you're seriously deluded.

[Tom Joad]

12. Palestinians have been under "continuous violent attack from its neighbor"

[msmcghee]

13. Bullshit Tom. Israel (the state) has never attacked any person . .

. . in the disputed territories except as a matter of defending its citizens. This opposed to thousands of attacks over the years that were not only claimed to be attempts to kill Israeli citizens - but eagerly taken credit for whenever successful.

No-one here has ever made a credible case otherwise - but I again welcome you to lay out your evidence.

[Tom Joad]

15. I don't think there is any credible human rights organization on earth

that would agree with you.

This "israel can do no wrong" thing is way over the top, in my estimation. It does not serve the interests of anyone in the region, including Jewish Israelis.

[msmcghee]

17. This "Israel can do nothing right" thing is . .

. . way over the top in my estimation. Condemning the only real democracy in the ME for defending itself from terrorist acts does not serve the interests of peace nor of the Palestinian people.

However, I'll agree it does serve the interests of many human rights organizations that have found that demonizing Israel is always good for donations from safe liberals in western societies that have no fucking idea what it means to have someone actually trying to kill them and their kids.

But hang on, support for terrorism is on the rise throughout the west. I predict it won't be long before many more of us will get our chance to experience some real death and destruction.

[Tom Joad]

19. I will have no further discussion with someone who seems to

have such contempt for human rights organizations and liberals.
Waste of time by any measure.

[msmcghee]

21. Actually, I think liberals are pretty cool. Know any? n/t

[Tom Joad]

25. Everyone i know supports the work of Amnesty Int'l and Human Rights Watch

and B'Tselem.

Likely we have no friends in common.

[breakaleg]

22. Can you name something that you concede Israel HAS done wrong?

Without the rhetoric, if you please.

[msmcghee]

18. Since you apparently can't provide the evidence . .

. . why not go get some official from one of those "human rights organizations" to come here and lay out some credible evidence for Israel being the aggressor in this conflict - and how the Palestinian militants and their supporters are just doing what they can to live their lives peacefully. How they mean no harm to Jews - how they are just defending themselves from the violent IDF.

[richards1052]

26. Get Down off that high horse

"a neighbor that states that they intend to keep up the attacks until Israel is destroyed"

I just love the Israel Firsters who get into such high moral dudgeon when they carry on about alleged Palestinian exterminationism. Who is this neighbor? The PA? The PA has never said such a thing. Some Hamas and other Palestinian militants have said such things, but that hardly constitutes an expression of the entire Palestinian nation.

So why would Israel sow slow death on an entire Palestinian population by shutting down water & power--merely because of the beliefs of some among them?

[Name removed]

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[Tom Joad]

7. Eliyahu is like Falwell or Rev Hagee. Crazy as hell. E. blamed the holocaust

on Reform Jews.
Falwell blamed 9/11 attacks on the aclu.
Common thread of hate & extremism from the both of them.