Palestine threatens to move from gang wars to de-legitimization

[oberliner]

The current fighting among Hamas and Fateh gunmen in Gaza has gone beyond the realm of the merely irresponsible and cruel at the Palestinian level, and has entered the realm of an existential loss for all Arabs. There is something particular about inter-Palestinian fighting in Palestine that transcends the parallel waste and cruelties experienced in Lebanon, Iraq, Sudan and other troubled Arab lands. Palestine is a cause that has resonated among all Arabs and decent people around the world for over six decades, and has seen many fellow Arabs pay a heavy price for sharing the burden of defending that cause. Lebanon in particular has paid dearly over the years, and today it continues to shed blood and other assets in absorbing onto its territory the direct and indirect ramifications of the Palestine issue. Egypt, Syria and Jordan also suffered the cost of being Palestine's immediate neighbors, while Arabs in the Gulf, Iraq and further afield offered material, diplomatic and other support. Individual Palestinians throughout the world have sent money and materials to aid their compatriots. And today all these people and countries - and others who share a similar warm feeling and sense of principle about the justice of the Palestinian cause - all ask if what they have supported turns out to be young men in hoods running around shooting assault rifles at each other and killing two dozen or so other Palestinians every day?

<snip>

How utterly sad and misguided are these reckless Palestinian leaders who have taken one of the most powerful and enduring national causes in modern history and systematically transformed it into embarrassing internecine street-gang warfare that has elicited neither the pity nor even the lasting attention of the world.

The Palestinian people and cause, and all the Arabs who have supported them and suffered with them, deserve more than the current fare of harrowing, and apparently worsening, national self-destruction that will soon border on home-grown de-legitimization.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&article_id=83041&categ_id=17

[AviBaruch]

1. As someone elsewhere noted

It'll be interesting to see how some of the pro-Palestinians activists respond to this. No doubt, many will just fall back on the tried and true "blame Israel" mantra. But in all honesty, that will do little to help Palestinians. If the goal of these people is to help Palestinians rather than harm Israel, I hope that they will stand up with the same fervor to these barbaric acts as they do to the crimes they allege Israel of comitting.

[azurnoir]

2. OK so the US/Israel policy

of keeping the legally elected government from doing what it was elected to do and arming the rival faction, has nothing to do with this" LOL it was the intended result. Proof positive to the world that the Palestinians are animals not worthy of consideration and anyone disagreeing is an anti-Sewmite, does that about cover it" Oh but lets not forget that the "Left" is sooo consumed by their hatred for Bush that they blindly follow anything that "appears" anti Bush?

[AviBaruch]

3. You said it, I didn't

But as is par for the course, rather than address the Palestinians own failings, your gut reaction is to lash out Israel, Bush and a whole litany of people other than the people actually throwing people off buildings, executing people in the streets and generally abusing human rights.

What's funny is you seem to be taking the exact tactics I suggested an alleged Pro-Palestinian activist would take if their concern wasn't helping the Palestinians, but harming Israel.

[azurnoir]

14. I simply gave you the answer you wanted

And the violence between Palestinian factions harms Israel how? Haven't heard much about Qassams the past couple weeks. Neither party is excused, but to simply vilify the Palestinians alone is dishonest and ignores how this situation was created.

[oberliner]

4. What do you think of the Lebanon Daily Star piece in the OP?

Does the editor have any valid points?

[pelsar]

7. the OP...its not new...

gang warfare, staking out territories, shaking down shop owners has been going on for the last 10 years.....usually when i mention it, I'm immediatly "shouted" down as some kind of israeli propagandist (mention christians leaving bethlehem and it wont be the muslim gangs that have taken over the city but the wall). The westbank today has no police force, no judiciary, no govt. It run by gangs

Gaza is based on tribal loyalites which in itself leads to gangs....add to it the bedouin and the refugees and you get a mosiac of gangs staking out their territories. Those who gave money to the "palestenian cause", those nice westerners who went to protect palestenian rights in gaza (so that hamas would take over) were no more than "useful idiots."

It would have be a better investement if they spent their time teaching basic civics lessons.

[pelsar]

5. if its not true...just make it up...something will stick

of keeping the legally elected government from doing what it was elected to do and arming the rival faction..

.i didnt know the US and israel armed hamas...any links this would be new information for me (traditionally in the DU this is where instead of getting a link or a direct answer, the subject is changed)

[azurnoir]

6. The US armed Fatah

Hamas was legally elected and the US with Israels if not blessing at least acquiescence armed Fatah the rival faction.

[AviBaruch]

8. The US armed the PA security forces

which were controlled by Fatah. As I understand it, this was a major issue as to Hamas and Fatah, but how that justifies the horrible brutality we've seen the last few days is beyond me

[azurnoir]

13. It does not excuse the extremeists

but it does not excuse Israel or the US either, to imply that it does is like implying that Reagan's social policies had nothing to do with the rise in gangs in American cities, the two were parallel.

[AviBaruch]

16. There's nothing to excuse the US or Israel for here

these actions are the acts of Hamas and Hamas alone. Bringing up the US and Israel without actually damning the people throwing people from buildings IS excusing the criminals involved.

[azurnoir]

19. The PA is no longer the elected government N/A

[pelsar]

9. presidential guard...

they got the US aid........

[azurnoir]

11. Remember these threads?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=173536
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=161600
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=159578

In the first the policy of keeping Hamas from ruling is discussed, anarchy is what results from a government kept from ruling. The other 2 are about the US arming Fatah.

[AviBaruch]

12. So let's be clear

The US arming Fatah justifies the actions of Hamas. Is that your point?

[azurnoir]

15. No it is not

my point is that this is result of calculated policy and interference, something the US has a long history of.

[AviBaruch]

17. so Palestinians are mindless drones, incapable

of their own self control and ability.

if you were pro-Israel, you'd be called a bigot for making such a connotation.

[azurnoir]

18. Well you do have the talking points

down, but the statement that the US/Israel are innocent in this is at best a distortion, just why is the US giving Fatah arms? And I did not say Palestinians, I stated extremists on both sides Hamas/Fatah, the typical Palestinian is a pawn caught between a number of extremes and political agendas, the man in the article "Yousef" stated it best.

[msmcghee]

21. So, Hamas/Fatah are extremists, as you admit.

And also, they were both elected by the Palestinians to govern them.

And now, also according to you, the "Palestinian is a pawn caught between a number of extremes and political agendas."

I wonder at what point - if any - does some responsibility fall on the Palestinians to make choices for themselves when given the opportunity - that would improve their conditions and chances for a better future?

[azurnoir]

25. So what other choices did they have?

Seems that the pro-Zionists here are very anxious to focus solely on Palestinian (not Hamas or Fatah) violence as it would seem to "justify" more of the same from their side. Sort of like the American rights "Clinton did it too"

[msmcghee]

26. What other choices did they have?

I am stuck as to where to start and at what level.

How about we arbitrarily start with the crucial choices they made pre-partition. The records show that many Arabs were moving into the areas that the Zionist Jews were settling and building up economically. There were jobs to be had - and standards of living to be raised.

But at some point, for those Arabs who had historically seen Jews as inferior people, this Jewish engineered transformation in the desert was a bit much to accept. I suspect they realized that for Arabs to take part in it - required accepting some Arab responsibility - perhaps humiliation - for never having done anything about it themselves. There was understandable envy - fed by racial undercurrents.

So, probably the first really bad decisions, were for some Arabs (probably a minority at first) to see the Jews coming from Europe to make the desert bloom, as rivals rather than partners.

And as usual, even though the majority of Arabs would have benefited greatly from a multicultural non-sectarian society, a few religious nuts, like al-Husseini, was all at took to make sure that peaceful coexistence within Palestine would never be possible. Any hard progress toward coexistence could easily be reversed by a few sticks of dynamite, strategically placed.

Now, skip forward past 80 years of the very same conditions. And you see the very same bad decisions made repeatedly by the Palestinians - and for the same reasons. Time after time, a minority who cared nothing about the welfare of their own people - made sure that coexistence never had a chance. Killing the dhimmi and martyrdom eventually became the unifying icon of their culture - a culture that slid inexorably toward internecine killings, graft and intimidation of rivals.

Today, as 80 years ago, the equivalent of "a few sticks of dynamite" either riding in a Qassam or strapped to the waist of one of their children - suffice to destroy any possibility of peaceful coexistence with the Jews of Israel. And every generation of Palestinians became useful fools once again for those so eager to destroy their future - just as their grandparents became 80 years ago.

And, just as before, the only Palestinians to benefit are the well-placed members of the organized crime syndicates that Palestinians call a government. For everyone else it's just more poverty and hard times - that they are taught from their youngest days to blame on the Jews.

All of that is the result of a very long string of consistently bad decisions. Thousands of little decisions and a few very big ones - a list much too long to lay out in this post.

[azurnoir]

27. I was talking about now no 80 years ago

And this-"But at some point, for those Arabs who had historically seen Jews as inferior people, this Jewish engineered transformation in the desert was a bit much to accept. I suspect they realized that for Arabs to take part in it - required accepting some Arab responsibility - perhaps humiliation - for never having done anything about it themselves. There was understandable envy - fed by racial undercurrents." racial undercurrents?
Yesssss, the Israelis or pre-Israelis saw the Arabs as their equals? So where did the money and technology to accomplish what the Zionists did early on come from, did they bring it with them? Oh and what about the Jews that had been in Palestine all along are they as responsible as the Arabs? The same reasoning "they aren't doing anything with it" was used to justify land theft from American Indians, was that and the subsequent "reservationing" of the remaining Indians then justified?

[msmcghee]

29. I'd give you the courtesy of a reply, but . .

. . I really can't find anything in your post that would constitute a point. I'm not being sarcastic. I really can't find anything. Try again if you want to.

[azurnoir]

30. LOL

I am oh so sure you could not "find a point" so we do agree.

[AviBaruch]

22. Nowhere you find the word "innocent" in my posts

but discussions of Israel and the US's role in this are secondary. The main problem is the lawlessless and lack of respect for humanity being shown by the Palestinians here. And if you want to throw around blame wantonly, I suggest that you add to the list left wing apologists who have consistently refused to condemn the Palestinians for their actions and instead, blamed everyone else.

This is exactly what that behavior has reaped.

[azurnoir]

23. No where did I excuse Hamas or Fatah

nor did I refuse to place any blame on the Palestinians Hamas and Fatah or wantonly throw blame. Nothing happens in a vacuum and there is a cause and effect element here

[AviBaruch]

24. No, it doesn't happen in a vaccum

but I find many are quick to jump past the immediate responsibility and rely far too heavily on "root" causes.

[pelsar]

28. so if i am to understand it correctly...

israel and the US are responsable for the Fatah and hamas shooting on unarmed demonstrators, throwing people off buildings etc.

but theres a problem here. All the time under the occupation with the help of the ISM and the UN and others the palestenians understood very well the concept of human rights. Werent they always explaining to the world about israeli atrocities and other unlawful activities?

Seems to me the activities undertaken by hamas and fatah against each other wasnt done out of "lack of understanding of human rights"...it was done in blatant disregard for them-and that is all there is to it.

the blame belongs squarly on them, no excuses are necessary.

[barb162]

10. Maybe the two areas were so disparate in the first place

what is happening now is a natural outgrowth (outburst?)of that.

[razzleberry]

20. I just don't see any problem

a bad government has been thrown out.
members of that bad gov't are getting what they deserve.
On, to the West Bank.

Its all good