Israel is holding 365 Palestinian children captive

[ProgressiveMuslim]

IMEMC, Feb 5, 2008


This article was originally published by IMEMC and is republished with permission.

The Palestinian Center for Detainees' Studies issued a press release on Monday revealing that Israel is currently holding more than 365 Palestinian children captive in its prisons, including 100 children who are 13-15 years old.

The Center reported that the underage detainees are subjected to harsh treatment and torture and that their continued arrest comes in violation to the International Law and the basic principles of human rights.

The Center also stated that all of the child detainees, currently imprisoned by Israel, were kidnapped by the army during the Al Aqsa Intifada which started in 2000.

Ahmad Shawahna, head of the center, stated that the Israeli Prison Administration is subjecting the detainees to physical and psychological pressures in addition to threatening them to attack their families if they do not confess to charges filed against them.

Shawahna appealed the International Community to practice pressure on Israel in order to stop its violations against the detainees, especially child detainees, and added that these violations should be labeled as War Crimes.

http://imeu.net/news/article007797.shtml

[TomClash]

1. One for each day of the year? nt

[Freedomofspeech]

2. War leaves every child behind....

[sam sarrha]

3. many of them in graves

[LeftishBrit]

10. So it does...

That's why peace negotiations are absolutely essential. And on all sides. Whatever one may think of certain Israeli tactics, Israel is not solely responsible for the war - what about suicide bombings and rocket attacks on the other side?

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vegasaurus]

5. 3-2-1-this post will probably be deleted

This is so true. Too bad we can't have an honest conversation about how children are encouraged to become suicide bombers, and then their parents are treated like local heros, and even paid for their martyred children.

[Scurrilous]

6. You left me hanging on this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=196784&mesg_id=196965

[papau]

7. younger and younger? - no - but 13 and 14 year olds with Mom's approval - yes - indeed

videos were provided by Hamas and others in the past of the "before" preparation and good-byes. The recent Iraq children vests - the recent (last week) Iraq use of Downs syndrome children (killing 2 birds with one stone is I believe the phrase associated with ending a drain on household income and getting peer approval) - it is rather hard to say that children are not used this way - indeed the net has the grade school video shown on arab TV of the arab child getting his glory via suicide destruction of the enemy.

The most recent was the very young child found wearing an armed vest - the radio control must have failed (but this was in Iraq).

I have not heard of younger than 13/14 - and those have been around since 99 - so no - not younger and younger - at least not in the west bank and Gaza. I find it hard to believe you have not seen the videos as these were put out there as badges of honor - families doing "good" - heck - Saddam was giving $25,000 checks to the families. Given the 2003 invasion of Iraq date, I'd date the no new children blowing themselves up in West Bank/Gaza start to around 2002. Indeed the Iraq suicides are not coming with videos these days - so maybe it is less of an honor.




"Can you provide the names and ages of the all the Palestinian children who have blown themselves up in suicide attacks on Israelis (in chronological order).

I would help illustrate your fact that the attackers are getting younger and younger.

And can you provide a link where each of these child suicide bombers carried out their act with their parent's blessing?"

[LeftishBrit]

9. Yes. This is one of the frequent tragedies of wars and fanaticism of all sorts

Although suicide bombings are only common in some groups and organizations, the willingness of parents to sacrifice their children for the 'cause' of killing others, and the admiration for teenagers who die through suicidal violence, are sadly frequent.

In a Jacobite ballad, a Scottish father says,

"I once had sons, but now I have none.
I bred them toiling sairly.
If I could have my own sons again,
I'd give them all for Charlie."

This is a link to a 20th-century IRA song, commemorating a teenager who devotes his young life to killing British 'enemies' and is inevitably killed himself. Since he is 16 and has been with the IRA for two years, he must have begun at the age of 14. This is apparently based on a real person; and is clearly intended to inspire others to give their lives for the IRA.

http://thebards.net/music/lyrics/Patriot_Game.shtml


My name is O'Hanlon, and I've just turned sixteen.
My home is in Monaghan, and where I was weaned
I learned all my life cruel England's to blame,
So now I am part of the patriot game. ....


It's nearly two years since I wandered away
With the local battalion of the bold IRA,
For I read of our heroes, and wanted the same
To play out my part in the patriot game....

I don't mind a bit if I shoot down police
They are lackeys for war never guardians of peace


....And now as I lie here, my body all holes
I think of those traitors who bargained in souls
And I wish that my rifle had given the same
To those Quislings who sold out the patriot game



Fanaticism is a big killer of young people: often not only those killed by fanatics, but those lured into 'giving their lives' to kill others. It is interesting that far fewer older people are prepared to become suicide bombers.

[Dick Dastardly]

79. I think there have been a few at 10 and 11

I dont know if they succeded but here is an 11 year old that was caught in 04. I know that plenty are used in non suicide operations that are pre teen


Israelis say boy, 11, used as bomber
The Israeli military has accused a faction of Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement of using an 11-year-old boy as an unwitting human bomb after the child was discovered carrying explosive through an army checkpoint in Nablus.
The army says Abdullah Quran's life was saved only because a mobile phone rigged as a detonator failed to set off the explosive when he was stopped on Monday.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1170980,00.html


There have been plenty since 02. See my post
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x196784#199903

[Vegasaurus]

8. Google yourself, since there is plenty of information

There are plenty enough videos and articles. But here's one little tidbit:

The Palestinian media is a primary vehicle used to promote the martyrdom of children. In Sept. 2002, the PA renewed broadcasting of one of the most odious PA video clips, the "Farewell Letter." In the clip, a child writes a farewell letter to his parents, glorifying his desire to die, and then places himself in front of Israeli soldiers during a violent riot where he is shot and dies, achieving his goal. The words are sung: " For my country, I shall sacrifice myself... How sweet is Shahada ... Be joyous over my blood and do not cry for me." (source: IMRA.org)

Another Palestinian Authority TV program clip, aimed at young viewers, features a boy killed in Gaza arriving in heaven where there are beaches, waterfalls, and a Ferris wheel. He is saying, "I am not waving goodbye, I am waving to tell you to follow in my footsteps." On the accompanying soundtrack, a song plays, "How pleasant is the smell of martyrs, how pleasant the smell of land, the land enriched by the blood, the blood pouring out of a fresh body."

Religious leaders also encourage the martyrdom of children. Sheik 'Ikrimi Sabri, the Palestinian Authority-appointed mufti of Jerusalem, declared: "I feel the martyr is lucky because the angels usher him to his wedding in heaven... The younger the martyr, the greater and the more I respect him." ("Al-Ahram Al-Arabi" - Oct. 28, 2000)

Parents are also portrayed in Palestinian society as supporting their children's death. "Al-Ayyam" newspaper quotes a mother who encouraged her sons to sacrifice themselves for Palestinian beliefs:

"The danger of injury to the boy Tzabar Ashkaram, 18, paralysis and permanent disability, just added to his mother's determination to encourage her sons to participate in the intifada riots... the fact of his injury by a live bullet did not cause her to mourn. She said she had previously lost her older son, Iyyad." (Nov. 1, 2000)

Another Palestinian mother was quoted in the London Times: "I am happy that has been martyred. I will sacrifice all my <12> sons and daughters to Al-Aqsa and Jerusalem."

BBC broadcast a video of a proud Palestinian mother embracing her son and sends him proudly on his way to kill Jews. "God willing you will succeed," she says. "May every bullet hit its target, and may God give you martyrdom. This is the best day of my life."

http://www.teachkidspeace.org/doc1018.php

[Scurrilous]

12. I did google.

And I can't find any information supporting your assertion.

That's why I asked you.

I thought maybe you could back up what you post with facts 'n stuff.

[Vegasaurus]

14. So you didn;t like my facts?

Go talk to the Hamas Parliament mother. She also promoted the martyrdom of her sons.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1536576

Mariam Farahat, who was elected to the Palestinian parliament, can work a crowd like a veteran politician -- shaking hands and greeting supporters. When she gets on the stage at a Hamas rally, she is the star attraction. She was one of Hamas' most popular candidates in Wednesday's election.

In Gaza, Farahat is known as Um Nidal, or Mother of the Struggle -- a mother who sent three of her six sons on Hamas suicide missions against Israeli targets.

"We consider it holy duty," she told ABC News. "Our land is occupied. You take all the means to banish the occupier. I sacrificed my children for this holy, patriotic duty. I love my children, but as Muslims we pressure ourselves and sacrifice our emotions for the interest of the homeland. The greater interest takes precedence to the personal interest."


She is most famous for her presence in a Hamas video, showing her 17-year-old how to attack Israelis and telling him not to return. Shortly afterward, he killed five students in a Jewish settlement before he was killed himself.

Um Nidal's home has become a shrine to her dead sons, with admirers and other members of Hamas often dropping by.

[Scurrilous]

17. My questions to you were very clear...

...and you have in no way answered them.

[Vegasaurus]

18. If those don't answer you

direct quotes from people, video, etc., then that is your problem, not mine.

Have a good day!

[Violet_Crumble]

43. A lesson for you. Don't make bullshit claims you can't support with facts...

You haven't answered Scurrilous' question coz you can't seeing as how you just made up something in yr never-ending quest to demonise Palestinians....

[Vegasaurus]

62. I have provided numerous points of evidence

about how children martyring themselves are celebrated in Palestinian culture.

You and Scurrilous don't like the evidence, including the Hamas Parliamentary mother.

I can't help that you don't like those facts.

[Violet_Crumble]

72. No, you haven't answered Scurrilous' question at all...

It was very clear and very specific...

You'd said '"But the fact remains that younger and younger children are becoming suicide bombers.."

And Scurrilous asked:

'Can you provide the names and ages of the all the Palestinian children who have blown themselves up in suicide attacks on Israelis (in chronological order).

I would help illustrate your fact that the attackers are getting younger and younger.

And can you provide a link where each of these child suicide bombers carried out their act with their parent's blessing?'

Posting links to things that don't at all answer the question you were asked isn't providing evidence of anything much at all...

[Violet_Crumble]

44. If the deleted post was the sort of demonisation of Palestinians some thrive on...

..then there's plenty of other places people can go to have what they think are 'honest' conversations. They're similar to the 'honest' conversations some have on other sites about Jews, and neither is welcome at DU....

Do you actually have anything to say about the OP?

[Vegasaurus]

63. If you are trying to chase me off and tell me my views are not welcome on DU

try again.

The rabid "hate Israel" types here need a little balance. I am just supplying facts, most of them from the news and other sites, rarely my opinion.

I am not planning to go anywhere, so please stop badgering me.

[Violet_Crumble]

73. No, that's not what I said. Read my post again...

..but if the shoe fits, well....

The rabid "hate Israel" types here need a little balance.

The problem is that you appear to think most people who criticises Israel are rabid 'hate Israel' types. And even if they did exist, that doesn't justify saying hateful things about Palestinians and continually trying to portray the entire population in a very negative light...

I am just supplying facts, most of them from the news and other sites, rarely my opinion.

Oh, sorry. I forgot that yr the person in this forum with the *facts*, unlike everyone else. I've seen folk who appear to have issues with other groups of people (eg Jews, Asians, women) claim they have the *facts* as well :)

[breakaleg]

11. Hate lives. nt

[Vegasaurus]

13. Actually, hate kills

which is why it is all the more disturbing when parents promote the death of their children in the name of political power or hate.

[breakaleg]

15. And since the subject of the OP is Palestinians children being held by ISRAEL, you know

where to look for all the information on that subject. They are the authorities, after all.

[Vegasaurus]

16. You will never, ever find an Israeli mother celebrating the death of her sons

in killing Palestinians.

Never.

[breakaleg]

19. Sure about that? Can you explain to me how those lovely mothers in Hebron are raising their

sweet little children to be hoodlums? We've all seen the videos. And before you say they are the exception, let's be clear that the entire occupation enterprise is supporting these lunatics. They are clearly more mainstream that anyone would have us believe.

[Vegasaurus]

20. Hoodlums suck

But I repeat: No Israeli mother, including those in Hebron, are encouraging their children to martyr themselves in the name of greater Israel, nor are they handing out candy when Palestinians are killed.

[breakaleg]

22. When rabid settlers actually murder Palestinians, the state of Israel slaps them on the wrist.

That is more powerful and more telling than anything. Certainly more powerful than handing out candy.

[henank]

21. Mainstream??? Nonsense

The Hebron mothers are not mainstream at all. They are a fringe of a fringe movement. And the way they bring up their children, whatever any of us may think of it, has nothing to do with the fact that Israeli mothers would never celebrate the death of their children. Those mothers may be educating their children to be hoodlums but they are not encouraging them to kill themselves.

[breakaleg]

23. When those children grow up and kill Palestinians, what happens to them? Not much. How different

is that from what's being discussed here? Whether the support is overt or behind closed doors, the result is the same.

[pelsar]

25. just hyperbole again.....and again...

When those children grow up and kill Palestinians....since they are now on 2nd 3rd generations...perhaps you have some stats on all of those kids killing Palestinians?

since you dont have any facts (links) perhaps you would like to explain why you wrote it?

[azurnoir]

30. Facts?

Only 41 Palestinians killed by Israeli civilians in the OP, not enough to even count or help those bothersome demographics either:sarcasm:

http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Casualties_Data.asp?Category=3

[pelsar]

32. did you even read the info....

He was shot by a settler when he tried to attack a police officer.

Killed by an Israeli civilian after he had stabbed his employer.

Killed while carrying out a shooting attack.

Killed by a settler gunfire after trying to infiltrate the settlement when armed

Killed by settler gunfire while attempting to attack the settlement.
____

hmm....guess all those thousands of kids are out killing Palestinians.... actually to use your criteria sounds like all the Palestinians just love killing jews...
----

i forgot..attacking israelis is no reason for any kind of reaction-sorry for bringing it up.

[azurnoir]

36. So each and every killing was self defence

is that what your claiming? What a surprise or disappointment.
Palestinians never kill Israelis in self defense though, not on record.
Thousands that is your insertion, not mine, not anyone else's

[pelsar]

38. read your own link....

you made the original accusation that israel settler kids just grow up to kill Palestinians....and when ask for some kind of proof..even though it was clear to anyone with any knowledge that in the 40 years of occupation the settlers have killed few Palestinians....your link shows many were in fact self defense....

thousands of israeli settler kids growing up...just waiting to kill Palestenains...that seems to be what you wrote...if im mistaken perhaps you can correct me?...is it just hundreds? or tens.... or 8?..how many do you believe?

[azurnoir]

39. Pelsar the post with the link

was my first post on this thread.

[eyl]

53. And yet you failed to realise

that your own link states that at least 15 of them were killed in self-defense? (there are several others where there's not enough information about the circumstances)

As for the claim that settlers always get a slap on the wrist, let's look at the killer of the most recent four victims in your link:

An Israeli court has handed a Jewish settler four life sentence for killing four Palestinians in the West Bank last year during Israel's Gaza withdrawal.

He was ordered to pay nearly $250,000 in compensation, divided between the four Palestinian families who lost relatives and another man who was injured.

The judges said the four life sentences were to run consecutively, and they added an additional 12 years to the sentence

[azurnoir]

57. I have failed to realixze ?????????? LOL

but do go ahead and keep insinuating, but never quite saying that all of the Palestinians were killed in self defense.

[eyl]

58. I gave the number of how many were killed in self defense

How can anyone who's not mathematically incompetent get from that to me ininsuating that was the case for all of them?

And frankly, given that you insinuated none of them were killed in self defense....pot, kettle?

[azurnoir]

60. sorry

read title skimmed post yes you did give a number, and no i did not insinuate that, but I should never assume about who I am replying too. So sorry

[eyl]

64. no worries n/t

[Vegasaurus]

40. If you are equating the number of suicide bombings, border bombings, rockets etc

aimed directly at israeli civilians, perpetrated by Palestinians, with the number of Palestinians killed by Israeli civilians IN SELF DEfENSE, you are seriously deluded.

All deaths should be mourned. The point is that israeli deaths are celebrated in Palestine, with cheers and sweets. The same is not true on the Israeli side, no matter how you try to equate the two.

[Violet_Crumble]

46. Since when have these killings been self-defense???

From the B'Tselem link:

Kheyder Jadu'a 'Abd al-Jabber Kan'an
27 year-old resident of Hizma, al-Quds district, killed on 29.08.2001 next to 'Anata, al-Quds district, by gunfire. Additional information: Killed while riding in his car.

Muhammad Salameh a-Tameizi
23 year-old resident of Idhna, Hebron district, killed on 19.07.2001 next to Idhna, Hebron district, by gunfire. Additional information: Killed in an attack by settlers while he was driving in his car.

Diaa' Marwan a-Tameizi
Under 1 year-old resident of Idhna, Hebron district, killed on 19.07.2001 next to Idhna, Hebron district, by gunfire. Additional information: Killed in a shooting attack by settlers when she was riding in her father's car.

Nivin Jamjum
14 year-old resident of Hebron, killed on 28.07.2002 in Hebron, by gunfire. Additional information: Killed by gunfire when settlers rioted in Hebron.

'Adnan 'Odeh
22 year-old resident of Huwara, Nablus district, killed on 21.06.2002 in Huwara, Nablus district, by gunfire. Additional information: Killed by gunfire when settlers rioted in Huwarra.



Hani Bani Maniya
22 year-old resident of 'Aqraba, Nablus district, killed on 06.10.2002 in 'Aqraba, Nablus district, by gunfire. Additional information: Shot and killed by settlers while harvesting his olives


Sa'il Mustafa Ahmad Jabarah
46 year-old resident of Salem, Nablus district, killed on 27.09.2004 next to Salem, Nablus district, by gunfire. Additional information: Killed while driving his taxi, by a settler who wanted him to stop.

http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Casualties_Data.asp?Category=3

I guess it'd be more clear-cut if they'd accepted lollies from someone in Gaza yesterday. Then they'd have deserved to be killed in 'self-defense', right?

[Scurrilous]

24. Hundreds of Jews Gather To Honor Hebron Killer

<snip>

"In a steady stream, they came by the hundreds today to recite afternoon prayers at the grave of Baruch Goldstein, many bowing deeply to kiss the tombstone of the Hebron mass killer and to proclaim him a holy man.

They were a small group from among 10,000 or more Jews who descended on this Israeli settlement to rally against the Government for agreeing to post foreign observers in neighboring Hebron and for raising the possibility of moving the 450 Jews who live in that tempestuous West Bank town.

Give up Hebron and Jerusalem will be next, rabbis and rightist political leaders warned the crowd on a dusty soccer field. Debate Over Soldiers' Duty

Their denunciations added to an already intense public debate over whether soldiers should defy orders to evacuate settlers on religious grounds. A call for such defiance came this week from some leading rabbis, and was denounced by Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin as a step toward destroying the Israeli Army he once commanded.

But for many who journeyed here by car and bus, the goal was not only to condemn Mr. Rabin but also to worship on the ground that covers Dr. Goldstein, who massacred at least 29 Muslims at prayer in Hebron on Feb. 25 and then was beaten to death.

Whether young or old, wearing the knitted yarmulkes of modern Orthodox Zionists or the black suits of the Hasidim, they approached the burial mound, surrounded by stones placed in mourning, as though it were a shrine.

Dozens hugged and kissed the tombstone. Some kneeled to kiss the grave itself, including one young man who cried out: "Hero of Israel! Hero of Israel! There should be more like him." 'Like Touching the Saint."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9405E3D8153FF932A35757C0A962958260

[henank]

26. That report is from 1994!

Is that all you could find?

The article in question reports on the memorial service for Baruch Goldstein 30 days after he was killed after his own rampage in the Cave of Machpela. (In Jewish tradition a memorial service is held at the graveside 30 days after a person's death). The whole incident was very fresh and raw in everyone's minds at that time. I'm not justifying Goldstein's actions but the fact remains that since 1994, the only memorial services held for him have been attended by a handful of people, if that.

I'm going to bring you a quote from Israel Insider, a right-wing (I think) website, reporting on the 10th anniversary of Goldstein's death, and even they classify Goldstein's supporters as "extremist" etc. They also bring some numbers to bring some proportion to your claims.

Haaretz reported that "several dozen" activists attended the Saturday night celebration in Goldstein's memory. Maariv reported that "dozens" participated, but Yediot Aharonot stated that "only about 30" people attended the annual event.

more

More to the point, since Baruch Goldstein committed his murder, how many settlers have murdered how many Palestinians? How many settler parents have brought up how many children (they have lots!) to be murderers? How many settler children have grown up to be murderers? What numbers do you have? Links? Proof?

[Vegasaurus]

28. Beat me to it

I thought the same thing: one incident from 1994?

How about some recent quotes, events, actions of Israeli mothers celebrating the deaths of their sons as they kill Palestinians? Or, even Israelis dancing in the streets and handing out candy at the death of Palestinians.

Links will do.

[azurnoir]

29. Just like the "dancing" Palestinians on CNN

in September a few years ago.

[henank]

31. Is yesterday recent enough for you?

Gazans hand out sweets in celebration of Dimona suicide bombing

As word of the suicide bombing in Dimona spread Monday, Gaza residents were treated to celebratory wreaths of flowers as well as sweets that were handed to drivers and passers-by.

Gaza motorists receiving the treats and sweets also honked their horns in triumph and celebration.

[azurnoir]

37. Yeah I saw them yesterday and on 9/11 n/t

[Vegasaurus]

41. So now you agree. nt

[azurnoir]

42. With what

It was NA stock footage on 9/11 or do you believe otherwise, and convenient yesterday to say the least.

[eyl]

52. Stock footage?

Snopes would disagree:

No, CNN did not air decade-old footage of Palestinians dancing in the streets. Eason Jordan, CNN's Chief News Executive, confirmed that the video used on CNN was in fact shot on Tuesday, 11 September 2001, in East Jerusalem by a Reuters TV crew, not during the Persian Gulf conflict of 1990-91 — a fact proved by its inclusion of comments from a Palestinian praising Osama Bin Laden (whose name was unlikely to have come up ten years earlier in connection with the invasion and liberation of Kuwait) as well as the appearance in the video of post-1991 automobiles. The person who made the claim quoted above has since recanted.

And convenient how?

[azurnoir]

56. Yeah ok

so now If that is what you need or want to believe ok, ohhh maybe OBL is hiding in Gaza City too

as for convent, just that convient.

[eyl]

59. Tell you what

I've given a reference to the footage being real, from source which, while not a news site, is geenrally considered to be repuatble in these matters. Care to give your evidence?

And as for convenience, if you want to say something, say it. Are you arguing the Israeli media faked the reports of the celebrations in Gaza? If so, care to support those allegations?

[Scurrilous]

34. Still waiting on this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=196784&mesg_id=196965

:hi:

[Vegasaurus]

66. This is from Iraq

but it is the same propaganda used against children:

BAGHDAD - Boys in soccer jerseys don black masks and grab weapons. They scramble over mud-brick walls, blast down doors and hold guns to the heads of residents inside.

The U.S. military said videos seized from suspected al-Qaida in Iraq hideouts show militants training children who appear as young as 10 to kidnap and kill. It's viewed as a sign that the terror network - hungry for recruits - may be using younger Iraqis in propaganda to lure a new crop of fighters.

"Al-Qaida in Iraq wants to poison the next generation of Iraqis," said Rear Adm. Gregory Smith, a U.S. military spokesman. "It is offering children as the new generation of mujahedeen," he added, using the Arabic term for holy warriors.

The video, shown to reporters yesterday, depicted an apparent training session with black-masked boys - ammunition belts draped across their small chests - forcing a man off his bicycle at gunpoint and marching him off down a muddy lane. An off-camera voice, speaking with an Iraqi accent, instructs children how to take firing positions with assault rifles.


http://media.www.bgnews.com/media/storage/paper883/news/2008/02/07/World/Military.AlQaida.Is.poisoning.Iraqis-3193289.shtml

[Dick Dastardly]

78. I posted the info for you

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=196784&mesg_id=199903

[Scurrilous]

35. "...but the fact remains...

...that since 1994, the only memorial services held for him have been attended by a handful of people, if that."


Gravesite and commemoration

"The gravesite has become a pilgrimage site for those with extreme right-wing political views; a plaque near the grave reads "To the holy Baruch Goldstein, who gave his life for the Jewish people, the Torah and the nation of Israel." In 2000, admirers gathered at his grave on Purim dressed as Goldstein, wearing lab coats, false beards, and carrying guns. Between the killings and 2000, an estimated 10,000 people have visited the grave."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein

Ten thousand visitors in 6 years. That's some handful.

[Violet_Crumble]

45. Yeah, but they're not Arabs, so they don't count!

And like it's not like they were doing it yesterday or anything, blah blah blah blah blah...

[eyl]

54. I remember discussing that article when it came out

There was a major dispute regarding those numbers, considering their source (Marzel).

For that matter, it's also an open question how many of those visitors were adherents. For example, looking at the website of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions, I see* they had a tour of Hebron on January 18th, which included a stop at Goldstein's grave.

*This only appears on the Hebrew version of their website; they seem to have stopped updating the English-language Events page at the end of 2006.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eyl]

65. And just who here belongs to that crowd? n/t

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[azurnoir]

27. what was the age of induction to the Palmach? n/t

[ProgressiveMuslim]

33. Why is the discussion here about palestinian mothers? OBFUSCATION ALERT! nt

[Violet_Crumble]

47. I guess some find it much more fun to try to demonise others...

But in the spirit of going off on tangents, I'm going to introduce one right here. Don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting so totally sick of seeing the continual attempts by a very small number of posters to demonise the Palestinian population, whether it's by making out that they raise their kids to be suicide bombers, or they were all out and about handing out lollies yesterday. There's a constant attempt by these posters to portray the Palestinian people as *bad*, while bristling and complaining loudly if anyone dare go close to generalising about the Israeli population, who in the minds of these folk are *good*....

So my question is, why do people do it?

[henank]

48. For the self-same reason

As those posters who claim that Israelis and/or the IDF are "crazed with hatred" and therefore "intentionally target civilians", that Israel is only interested in "land grabs" and can't possibly have any security concerns, that Israel is "created on stolen land", that Israel and/or the Zionists "stole Palestinian land" and/or "forcibly expelled the Palestinian population" and/or the eeeevil settlers only want to murder poor innocent Palestinians... bla bla bla ad infinitum ad nauseum.

It's called fighting fire with fire. Yes, it's childish, yes it's a vicious circle and yes, it doesn't help anyone gain a greater understanding of the complexities of the Middle East. But as long as one side does it the other side will continue.

[Violet_Crumble]

49. Stop blaming other people for yr own behaviour...

Using that pathetic excuse of yrs, I could react to the crap I've seen posted here recently by posting sweeping generalisations about Israelis and then saying I'll stop it when you stop it. Yr right that it's fucking childish, and I won't do it coz I'd rather be honest....


Anyway, I'm talking about the constant attempts to negatively portray the Palestinian population as a single-minded group. I've seen similar things at times about Israelis, but unlike you, I don't object to one while doing the very thing I find so wrong to another group...

While you seem to have problems with the fact that extremist settlers do indeed want to murder innocent Palestinians, it's a fact that they do. The difference between that and what I talked about is that people don't try to portray the settlers as being the entire population. And you have problems with the fact that a large number of Palestinians were forcibly expelled from Israel? So fucking what? It's a fact, and you can't just discard facts that you don't like, nor is that example anything like the demonisation of a group of people that I was talking about....

Has it occurred to you that just maybe some of us are interested in a genuine discussion and don't find the constant attempts of you and one or two others to derail conversations with hateful and simplistic portrayals of the Palestinian people to be something that we should have to put up with at DU? Go do that crap somewhere else...

[henank]

50. There you go again

You're accusing me of making generalizations when you yourself are making one.

What makes you say I'm not interested in genuine discussion? You asked a question and I answered it. The answer may not be to your liking but that's how the level of discussion on DU appears to me - people make generalizations about the Palestinians and others make equally egregious generalizations about Israel.

I quote your words here with a slight edit:

While you seem to have problems with the fact that extremist settlers Palestinian terrorists do indeed want to murder innocent Palestinians Israelis, it's a fact that they do. The difference between that and what I talked about is that people don't try to portray the settlers terrorists as being the entire population.

...

It's a fact, and you can't just discard facts that you don't like, nor is that example anything like the demonisation of a group of people that I was talking about....

Has it occurred to you that just maybe some of us are interested in a genuine discussion and don't find the constant attempts of you and one or two others to derail conversations with hateful and simplistic portrayals of the Palestinian Israeli people to be something that we should have to put up with at DU? Go do that crap somewhere else...

See, it works both ways.

[Violet_Crumble]

51. No, I don't make generalisations about either Israelis or Palestinians...

The problem with a small number of posters in this forum is that they appear to fail to see a distinction between terrorists and the population and try to paint the entire population and terrorists with the same brush. Maybe you'd like to put yr money where yr mouth is and show me where I've ever painted the population of Israel and extremist settlers with the same brush? I'll make it easy for you - I never have, so you'd be wasting yr time trying to find something...

I'll give a recent example of the negative generalisations about palestinians where there's attempts to portray them as terrorists:

'Since when is buying gas the same thing as providing aid to people trying to kill you?'

Keep in mind that aid is provided to the population of Gaza.

Why is this stuff even appearing at DU? Seriously if I wanted to read this crap I'd join join LGF or some other place like that...

Personally, I think this forum would take on a far more healthy tone if people actually expressed their honest thoughts (in one or two cases I think the ugliness expressed is their honest opinion). Because when someone tells me they are saying things as a tit-for-tat type thing (of course while the tat happens, the tit is far, far more frequent), why am I supposed to take anything they say seriously?

[Vegasaurus]

55. To thine own self be true

I think it is funny how you think you are in the slightest even handed in your approach.

[Violet_Crumble]

74. This isn't about me...

It's about comments that have been made in this forum on what is becoming a regular basis. Though if you want to make it about me, yr free to go on a fruitless search to try to find examples of where I've made negative generalisations about the Israeli population....

Just curious, but can't you see anything wrong with the statement I used as an example in the post you replied to?

[KatzManDu]

67. Hold-up, this is about as worthy as a news release from Osama Bin Laden...

1) Has any torture of prisoners (children or otherwise) actually been verified by another group, like Amnesty International or the Red Cross?

2) How many of these children were arrested because they had taken up arms or had bombs strapped to their chests?

[KatzManDu]

68. Also, how do we define "children."

In the west, anyone under 18 is considered a child.

However, per Islamist dogma children as young as 15 are able and can martyr themselves with their parents' permission.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/10/weekinreview/10moss.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[Tom Joad]

71. !

[Tom Joad]

69. yes, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, and also

B'tselem.

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=37283
MIDEAST: Israelis Torturing Palestinian Children
By Nora Barrows-Friedman

DHEISHEH REFUGEE CAMP, Occupied West Bank, Apr 10 (IPS) - Mohammed Mahsiri, a resident of Dheisheh refugee camp in the occupied West Bank, sits in a crowded café, a red kuffiyeh wrapped around his neck and an iconic portrait of Che Guevara emblazoned on his black t-shirt.

About a year and a half ago, he tells IPS, he and his friend were walking down the street when Israeli military jeeps surrounded them, shouted at them in Hebrew to stop, and forced them inside a jeep.

"I was taken to a detention centre and interrogated," Mohammed says. "The interrogation would begin at 2 o'clock in the afternoon and would finish after eleven pm. I was beaten all the time, especially if the soldiers did not get the answers they wanted.

"I was sent to be beaten by other soldiers and forced to stand in the rain with only thin clothes on. They would try to convince me that I did something that I did not do in order to get the confession they wanted. After being tortured at the detention centre for one month, I was in prison for 13 months."

Shocking photographs of torture at U.S. military bases and detention centres in Iraq and Afghanistan outraged people across the globe, but Palestinians say they have endured similar treatment inside Israeli interrogation centres since the 1967 occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.

But Mohammed Mahsiri's story is different. He endured considerable physical and psychological torture by Israeli interrogators and prison guards when he was just short of 17 years old.

What is being witnessed and documented within the detention centres and prison camps is widespread, systematic violation of international laws experienced by Palestinian children under 18 years old, including torture, interrogation, physical beatings, deplorable living conditions and no access to fair trial, according to reports by human rights groups and legal observers.

Under Israeli military orders in force inside the occupied West Bank and Gaza, any Palestinian over the age of 16 is considered an adult, while inside Israel the age of an adult is 18 -- even though Israel is a signatory to the International Convention of the Rights of the Child, which defines all children as under 18 years old.

Moreover, Palestinian children over 14 years old are tried as adults in an Israeli military court, and are often put into prisons with adults. These are also direct violations of international law...
______________________________________________________________________________________

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=5487

The brutal and humiliating treatment of Iraqi detainees by Americans bears striking similarities to interrogation techniques used by Israel's General Security Service (GSS, Shabak, or Shin Bet) on Palestinian prisoners. The current media attention on the former, healthy in its volume, is an opportunity to direct attention to the latter as well. One might be tempted to argue that great attention paid to American abuses and little or no attention paid to Israeli ones is an appropriate approach for the U.S. media, on the assumption that only the former is American guilt and the American media have a special duty to expose the guilt of their own nation or government. But abuses by Israel's GSS are part of American guilt, since the United States provides Israel with large financial support, three billion dollars annually in grants since 1985 (7; NB: references are chronologically ordered at the end).


In 1987, a retired judge for Israel's Supreme Court, Moshe Landau, wrote recommendations for the GSS allowing them to use torture in the interrogation of prisoners. The Landau Commission did not call these practices "torture." Instead, euphemisms were used, such as "moderate physical pressure" and "non-violent psychological pressure" (5, 8). What constitutes "moderate physical pressure" and "non-violent psychological pressure"? The following account by a fifteen-year-old boy, arrested for throwing stones, is typical: "They handcuffed and beat me during the journey to Fara'a . Once we arrived, they took me to a 'doctor' for a 'checkup.' I found out later that this 'checkup' is to locate any physical weakness to concentrate on during torture. They paid particular attention to my leg, which was once injured and was still sensitive. Before they began interrogation, they asked me if I was ready to confess. They then hanged me by my wrists, naked, outside in the cold, and gave me hot and cold showers alternatively. A hood covered in manure was put over my head" (quoted in 5).

_____________________

Just goes to show you... the US and Israel DO share common values!!!

[Tom Joad]

70. On what basis do you say that this is "as worthy as a news release from Osama"

[Violet_Crumble]

75. So how worthy is B'Tselem after you read this?

Because torture of prisoners has been documented by B'Tselem and other human rights groups. Even if child prisoners aren't tortured, they're exposed to it happening to other prisoners...

From B'Tselem

'In May 2007, B'Tselem and HaMoked: Center for the Defence of the Individual filed a comprehensive report, based on a survey sample of seventy-three detainees whom the ISA interrogated between July 2005 and January 2006. The report examined the interrogation methods used against them by security forces who came in contact with them, from the moment they were detained to the end of the interrogation, the most important being ISA agents.

According to the findings, ISA interrogations routinely included mental and physical ill-treatment. The main aspects of the interrogation regime were severance of the detainee from the outside world, use of incarceration conditions as a means of psychological pressure and to physically weaken the detainee, binding the detainee in a painful position, degradation, and threats.

In a small number of the cases, apparently those the ISA classifies as "ticking bombs," the ISA also used violent methods, which amount to torture, among them beatings, tight fastening of cuffs, sudden pulling of the body, and bending of the back.'

http://www.btselem.org/English/Torture/Index.asp

How many of these children were arrested because they had taken up arms or had bombs strapped to their chests?

At a guess I'd suspect many had taken up rocks to throw at tanks. Guess that makes them "ticking bombs", eh? ;)

[Douglas Carpenter]

77. ALL credible and independent human rights organizations (WITHOUT ANY EXCEPTIONS)

involved in this issue agree that torture is used and has been used countless times against Palestinian prisoners. A simple check of their data will make this very clear:

International Committee of the Red Cross/Palestinian Territories:

http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/palestine?OpenDocument



http://www.btselem.org/english/About_BTselem/Index.asp

Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions:

http://www.icahd.org/eng

The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel

http://www.stoptorture.org.il/eng/background.asp?menu=3&submenu=3

Physicians for Human Rights - Israel

http://www.phrusa.org/healthrights/phr_israel.html

Amnesty International/Israel and Occupied Territories:

http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/israel_and_occupied_territories/index.do

Human Rights Watch/Israel and Occupied Territories:

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/israel/

Machsom Watch (Monitors abuse at checkpoints)

http://www.machsomwatch.org/en


The Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group (PHMRG)

The Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group (PHMRG) A distinctly Palestinian organization that monitors human rights abuses on both sides. They are particularly aggressive and meticulous about monitoring human rights abuses committed by the Palestinian Authority or Palestinian organizations:

http://www.phrmg.org /

.