Killed While They Played Football, The Child Victims Of Israel's Revenge On Gaza

[Purveyor]

By Donald Macintyre in Jerusalem
Friday, 29 February 2008

Four boys playing football have been killed in Gaza by Israeli air strikes, according to Palestinian officials, as Israel responded to the death of a man from a barrage of rocket attacks with a bloody escalation of violence.

At least 16 Palestinians – including the four children – were killed yesterday as Israel responded to the deadly attacks the previous day.

While the Israeli military said it had been targeting militants and rocket-launching squads, the officials said the boys were playing football close to their homes in Jabalya, northern Gaza.

A relative, Ahmed Dardouna, 42, said the family had located the bodies of the boys – reportedly two brothers and their cousins – at a local hospital after they failed to return home. Rocket fire from militants into Israel continued during the day lightly injuring two Israelis and forcing the Israeli Interior Minister, Avi Dichter, to take cover during a visit to the border town of Sderot. His bodyguard was one of those injured, in a rocket attack launched before the minister arrived. Four rockets reached Ashkelon, 12 miles north of Gaza.

---EOE---

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/killed-while-they-played-football-the-child-victims-of-israels-revenge-on-gaza-789359.html

[subsuelo]

1. Now we await the excuse makers

Who will it be first. What excuse will be thought up? It's their own fault for being Gazans? It was a mistake, after all, Israel just would never target civilians, no way, not in a million years.

Maybe it's Hamas' fault? It can't be the fault of the killers, of course.

Not ever is it the fault of the killers.

[Shaktimaan]

2. You seem convinced that it is Israeli policy to target civilians.

I'm not sure why though. You recognize the difference between targeting civilians and collateral damage, right?

I mean, how do you think this works? That Israel has a secret policy of targeting civilians that no one has spoken out about? I know for a fact that Israel has pretty strict rules of engagement. There will always be soldiers who break these rules, but that is criminal. It doesn't reflect Israeli policy any more than it is American policy to target Iraqi civilians. Yet the amount of Iraqis killed in just a few years exponentially outnumbers deaths due to collateral damage in the OPT.

You seem to be looking at the numbers and then just deciding for yourself that it is unreasonable instead of comparing it to casualty rates in other conflicts.

In terms of fault, we have a set of rules that govern such things. If Palestinian militants launch attacks from populated areas then it is reasonable to expect increased civilian casualties when Israel tries to stop them. In that case the fault rests with the militants; using civilians as shields is what places them at risk. Despite this, Israel routinely calls off attacks when the civilian casualty probability would be too great. If their policy was to disregard, let alone target, civilians then it seems unlikely that this would happen at all.

Israel is unable to defend itself without incurring civilian casualties. So what makes you so certain that they actively target civilians on purpose?

[subsuelo]

3. ding ding ding! We have our first excuse

"Israel is unable to defend itself without incurring civilian casualties" - is supposed to excuse Israel for blasting away kids playing football.

Got any other good excuses out there?

[Behind the Aegis]

4. Got anything other than mindless propaganda?

How disgusting that you take these deaths to make Israel like it is "out to get" civilians. Then again, where are your excuses for the killing of the Israelis? The father of four, the old woman at the bakery? Oh that's right...it's the occupation. :eyes:

[subsuelo]

5. Got anything other than insults?

Of course Israel is out to get civilians. Just like Hamas is. You kill our people, we kill yours. That's what both sides are engaged in. To believe otherwise, is to accept the propaganda of the Israeli army.

As for making excuses for killing Israelis, please point me to the post where I excuse it. You won't find it.

I don't make excuses for either side. For me, both sides need to be held accountable. I have always said that.

[Shaktimaan]

6. do you believe that it is also american policy to kill Iraqi children? np

[subsuelo]

7. First of all, it isn't official Israeli policy to kill Palestinian civilians or children.

- Not that I am aware of anyway.

That doesn't mean it's not happening however. Obviously - it is. Furthermore, lack of official policy stating specific intentions to kill civilians does not excuse it either.

Do I think it's happening in Iraq? What do you think?

[pelsar]

17. atually there is an official policy-

within the IDF to avoid civilian casualties when possible...the judgement is up to the commander in the field.

as kasssams and grads get deadlier then need to stop them gets more urgent....at least for those whos job is to protect israelis from the incoming missiles.

now you are aware

[subsuelo]

18. well they are not doing a good job living up to the official policy are they

Half of Palestinians killed in 2006 were civilians. One third in 2007.

Given those numbers, it is just not possible to conclude that Israel scrupulously avoids civilians in all circumstances. If fact, what these gruesome statistics prove is just the opposite: That civilians are in fact rarely distinguished from participants in hostilities -- in other words, civilians are targets for attack by Israeli forces.

[pelsar]

22. interesting stats

Given those numbers, it is just not possible to conclude that Israel scrupulously avoids civilians in all circumstances

how does that work?...did you know that over 99.9999% percent of the Palestinians killed in battles with the IDF are because they are shooting from nursery schools and old age homes?
oh you dont believe me?...well perhaps you have some other links and sources that explain where the battles take place so that we can discover how the so many civilians are are killed?

or did you just make up your conclusion that civilians are targeted by the IDF because you have no real information and it "feels right"

[subsuelo]

23. what are you talking about?

:shrug:

[pelsar]

24. you make a claim..

having no idea how and where the Palestinian civilians were killed and then conclude that they were targeted......

[subsuelo]

25. You know that half = 50% right

I'm trying to understand clearly what your point is...

Do you actually accept, with full trust in the Israeli Army, that for every militant killed, a civilian is killed as some type of collateral damage or mistake?

Furthermore, going on the insane notion that they could all somehow actually be mistakes and collateral kills, you would find that acceptable? In other words -- it is okay with you that for every combatant killed, a civilian dies too. ?

[Dick Dastardly]

27. Even B'Tselem does not make the accusations you do.

They do not claim the IDF policy is to target civilians

Even many of the so called 131 innocent civilians were not really totally innocent as they report




B’Tselem emphasizes that the listing of a person as a civilian, or having not participated in the fighting, or the inclusion of any other details regarding the cause of death, does not indicate that the person or entity that killed the individual violated the law, or that the deceased was innocent, or that any other legal or moral conclusion can be drawn from the facts. The lists of fatalities relate to persons killed during incidents related to the al-Aqsa intifada, and are to be viewed solely in that light.



A comparison between 2007 and 2006 reveals a decrease in Palestinians killed by Israeli forces, and a decrease in those cases that raise the suspicion of arbitrary killing.


In 2007 (up to 29 December), Israeli security forces killed 373 Palestinians (290 in Gaza , 83 in the West Bank ), 53 among them minors. By comparison, in 2006, 657 Palestinians were killed, including 140 minors: 523 in Gaza , 134 in the West Bank . In 2007, about 35 percent of those killed were civilians who were not taking part in the hostilities when killed. This is a reduction in comparison with the number of casualties who did not participate in the hostilities in 2006, which was 54 percent, (348 persons).

In intra-Palestinian fighting, at least 344 persons were killed, almost all in the Gaza Strip in the first six months of the year. At least 73 of the dead, among them 22 minors, were not taking part in the fighting.

http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Casualties.asp




Report counts drop in Israeli and Palestinian fatalities in 2007

JERUSALEM -- The number of people killed in Israeli-Palestinian violence dropped dramatically in 2007, according to a report from an Israeli human rights group released Monday.

Israeli forces killed 373 Palestinians during 2007, a 45 percent drop from the previous year, said the report from the group, B'Tselem. Palestinians killed 13 Israelis in the same period, the lowest number of Israeli fatalities since the renewed outbreak of Israeli-Palestinian fighting seven years ago, the report said.



snip

Of the Palestinians killed this year, 131 were not engaged in fighting at the time of their death, according to the report. That number includes bystanders, militants killed during arrest raids, Palestinians killed trying to infiltrate Israel from Gaza, and armed members of Palestinian security forces who were not actively involved in hostilities when they were killed.

Most of the Palestinian dead were killed in Israeli military operations in the Gaza Strip, controlled by the Islamic group Hamas, where troops regularly clash with militants firing rockets into Israel. A minority were killed in the West Bank, where a moderate government led by Abbas has begun negotiating a peace agreement with Israel.

While Israeli-Palestinian violence subsided somewhat, internal Palestinian fighting this year took its highest toll ever, the report said. At least 344 Palestinians were killed by other Palestinians in 2007, nearly all of them in Gaza during the first half of the year.


http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/12/31/news/nation/17_49_0912_30_07.txt

[pelsar]

28. its quite simple....

to fully expect young men in life and death situations (an urban war zone) with the responsibility to insure that everybody in their squad to return home safely is going to be able to make 100% right decisions at all times is simply absurd....its ignoring the fact that they are people. More since much happens at night with limited vision, discerning between civilian and armed jihadnik is even more difficlut..add to that that the jihadnikim dont wear uniforms and there is another layer of difficulty......add an additional aspect that bombs/missiles are not precise in who and what they kill....and neither are bullets and one gets some understanding of the environment....

I assume i dont have to mention that shooting from civilian areas is a principle cause for civilian casualties and its been proven that when battles involving israelis forces take place in areas where there are no civilians, no civilians are in fact killed.....

my point is simple: the israeli policy is to avoid civilian casualties whenever possible...and in fact many missions are scrubbed when that danger is too high....but to believe that one has to then assume that israel in fact doesnt target civilians as per hamas....for some that presents a problem as its ruins putting hamas and israel on the same moral playing field and that would be a problem.

[bemildred]

10. Fuck yes it is, they admit it:

"We Think the Price Is Worth It"

Media uncurious about Iraq policy's effects- there or here

By Rahul Mahajan

Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.

--60 Minutes (5/12/96)

Then-Secretary of State Madeleine Albright's quote, calmly asserting that U.S. policy objectives were worth the sacrifice of half a million Arab children, has been much quoted in the Arabic press. It's also been cited in the United States in alternative commentary on the September 11 attacks (e.g., Alexander Cockburn, New York Press, 9/26/01).

But a Dow Jones search of mainstream news sources since September 11 turns up only one reference to the quote--in an op-ed in the Orange Country Register (9/16/01). This omission is striking, given the major role that Iraq sanctions play in the ideology of archenemy Osama bin Laden; his recruitment video features pictures of Iraqi babies wasting away from malnutrition and lack of medicine (New York Daily News, 9/28/01). The inference that Albright and the terrorists may have shared a common rationale--a belief that the deaths of thousands of innocents are a price worth paying to achieve one's political ends--does not seem to be one that can be made in U.S. mass media.

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1084

So you think Bush is a more caring individual than Albright?

[Tom Joad]

14. Clinton= Bush= Albright =Rice= Olmert. Dirty rotten warlovers, the whole lot of them.

That's the world we live in.

[bemildred]

16. Well, it's probably a mistake to assume this sort of thing was invented by Western politicians.

They are however, the foremost modern exponents of it. I would not have chipped in were it not for the assumption in that post that politicians are actually caring individuals, which they are not, and which they never have been. They are, almost all of them, murderous and self-serving weasels, and the notion that one ought to trust them or their good intentions tends to set me off.

[azurnoir]

20. True enough

but I do think that today's "western" leaders have learned what happens when a power does put murderous intent on paper as official policy and will take pains to not make the same mistake.

[bemildred]

21. Not usually that candid, no.

I'm sure Ms Albright kicks herself every day for not dissembling her lack of concern about the "cost" of our Iraq policies. It's notable how the "elites" like economic terminology when discussing these things, it makes it all sound so inevitable and sanitary and downright reasonable and necessary.

[number6]

26. Fuck yes, is right

Briton, Israel, USA do purposely kill children

they do it all the time

can u drop an A bomb on a civilian city and not kill children.

the bush regime kills children right in the USA

[Tom Joad]

13. sub, pay no mind to that. This is a guy who posts at a forum that

mourns the death of a man (Ronald Barbour)convicted of threatening the life of Bill Clinton, and who supported genocide against Muslims.
A quote from the forum:
"He could have been more effective in getting his message out by living. "

[Behind the Aegis]

19. Do you?

Israel is not "out to get" civilians, they are out to get the ones shooting rockets into Israeli territory. The policy is to 'neutralize' as many 'militants' as possible to stop the attacks on Israel. Exactly how does blowing up a disco or pizza parlor stop the attacks on Gaza or the West Bank?

I didn't say you were making excuses, I was using a generalization, much the same way I thought you were from your first post. Have you (not general) not seen those here who "excuse" the violence by blaming the occupation?

[Ordr]

8. Next week's title:

Killed While They Were Riding a Bus, The Victims of Palestinian Revenge on Israel

It sickens me that neither side gives a shit about diplomacy. Lots of sound-bites, zero substance. The violence of tribalism continues.

[subsuelo]

9. exactly

Thank you. Someone else around here gets it.

[Tom Joad]

11. This is the "peace" Olmert & Bush are fighting for.

[Ordr]

12. It pains me to say this...

...but this is no worse than before Bush was president. No third-party intervention will ever help these two warring factions.

[Tom Joad]

15. Standing up for human rights and international law would make a difference.

the occupation must end. and we must demand that the US govt stop paying for it.