Leftists: End Gaza war crimes

[Scurrilous]

Hundreds of leftist activists join calls made by Arab states, EU; Tel Aviv protestor says 'child-killing government has no moral right to exist'

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3513953,00.html

<snip>

"Hundreds of left-wing activists demonstrated Sunday evening outside the Defense Ministry in Tel Aviv to protest the IDF's operation in Gaza.

The demonstrators called on Israel's leadership and army to end military operations in the Strip and talk to Hamas leaders instead.

Participants in the rally held up signs reading "No despair Gaza, we'll end the occupation" and "Don't worry Ehud, Bush will be meeting you at The Hague." During the demonstration some protestors clashed with police officers who secured the scene of the rally and prevented the leftists from approaching the Defense Ministry's gates.

Yona Bar Gur, who is a member of the Israeli-Palestinian bereaved families' forum and who lost his paratrooper son 11 ago said Israel should be talking to Hamas.

"We don't need to talk to Hamas about recognizing Israel. It would be enough to talk to them about a ceasefire…what I'm most saddened about is that all of us know the solution, and the only question left is how many will die until then, 50,000 or 500,000," he said.

Another demonstrator, Yaniv Shahar from Tel Aviv, said he opposed the "war crimes in Gaza."

"This is a country and government that kills children so it has no moral right to exist," he said. "I wasn't in Sderot, but I have no doubt that the moment Israel stops killing in Gaza, the fire on Sderot and Ashkelon will stop."

[Fredda Weinberg]

1. Hundreds? Back when the Palestinian Authority had credibility,

half a million showed up for peace. No one should support Hamas.

[breakaleg]

2. Interesting. And were those 500 000 supporters able to get Palestinians their state?

[Fredda Weinberg]

4. Why should Israelis be responsible for getting the Palestinians a state?

If the Palestinians can't stop killing each other long enough to negotiate peace w/their neighbors, including Egypt, I don't see how that's Israel's fault.

[breakaleg]

9. So, what good did those supporters do? It's one thing to look back to the good old days when

the PA was towing the line and there was less violence than today. But the fact is, neither strategy did Palestinians any good. To suggest that all Hamas has to do now is to lay down their weapons and give in to Israel things will improve, is laughable.

[Fredda Weinberg]

11. Peace is laughable? Your attitude is the problem, not mine

So before apprehending a criminal, you have to get him to put down his weapons? Hell no ... you lay down the law. Until the rocket factories stop, there will be no peace in Gaza. You may have forgotten the suicide bombings in night clubs and pizza parlors, but you seem to be willing to give Palestinians a pass.

The PA was towing the line? Have you forgotten Clinton, Camp David and Yitzhak Rabin? The second intifada because Sharon had the nerve to visit one of our holiest shrines?

Please, don't make me laugh ... I remember that episode bitterly.

[breakaleg]

12. Enlighten me, is there a Palestinian state hiding somewhere that I'm unaware of?

It's so amusing to find people like you defend Israel knowing all the while that their policy of bombing Palestinians into submission, "peace" if you will, has failed miserably. You need a reality check.

[Fredda Weinberg]

14. Since you asked

Jordan's population after the unity with the West Bank rose to 1,329,989 inhabitants in 1952 (587,303 on the East Bank and 742,686 on the West Bank) from a population of 433,659 of which 99,261 were unsettled Bedouins in 1946. Jordan had two towns of more than 10,000 inhabitants in 1946 (Amman 65,754 and Salt 14,479). By 1952, the influx of Palestinian refugees increased the population of Amman to 108,412, as well as the population of Irbid and Zarqa, which rose from less than 10,000 inhabitants each, to more than 23,000 and 28,000 respectively.


The Jordanian government, in view of the historical and political relationship with the West Bank underlined by the Unity Agreement between the two Banks in 1950, granted all Palestinian refugees on its territory full citizenship rights while protecting and upholding their political rights as Palestinians (right of return or compensation).

http://www.jordanembassyus.org/new/aboutjordan/ph3.shtml

[Tom Joad]

3. Opposing the killing of children is equal supporting Hamas?

[Fredda Weinberg]

5. Hamas brought the violence upon Gaza ... if you oppose killing children

Oppose them.

[Tom Joad]

6. Bushit.

[Tom Joad]

7. just pure blame the victim bullshit.

[Fredda Weinberg]

8. And you could say the same thing for Isaelis who had enough of

Hamas' shelling.

[azurnoir]

13. Except that no one here is blaming

the people Sderot, most of us blame the current Israeli government who is victimizing, both the people of Sderot and the Palestinians.

[Fredda Weinberg]

15. The people of Sderot have an army to protect them. Your disapproval

is irrelevant when the nation is being shelled regularly by a neighboring territory.

Be honest ... would you accept rockets falling in your neighborhood?

[azurnoir]

16. No I would not but unlike some here

my solution would not be to kill 10 of "them" for every 1 of "us". Rather I would be POed at the government who's policies have created the mess and will not assist me in getting my family out of harm's way because it might make them look weak.

[pelsar]

17. so your for evacuation....

of sederot the surrounding communities the electrical plant (which supplies electricity to gaza and all of israel), ashkelon and something like 200,000 people?

[azurnoir]

19. Of those who ask for it yes

not a forced evacuation but those who want to leave should be assisted in doing so.

[pelsar]

27. 5,000 have already left

sederot.....out of 25,000.....

[azurnoir]

20. Addendum

my comment originally applied only to Sderot which does not have the warning system that Ashkelon does, nor is it reputedly as fortified, however my opinion on this still stands as to the electrical plant and desalination facilities if truly necessary, as in an emergency situation or enough of the regular staff wanting to leave those could be run the military

[pelsar]

29. what?......again?

Sderot which does not have the warning system that Ashkelon does,nor is it reputedly as fortified

where do you get this from?......shall i bother with some facts?....both have the same warning system, however is Ashkelon which is much larger, with larger buildings has a problem in that not all areas hear it....

and fortified?...sederot has fortified bus stops, parks etc...Ashkelon does not....I'm just curious..you source please?
______

wouldnt it be safer if they just shut down if possible the electrical plant?....it is rather dangerous

[azurnoir]

31. OK then they do

still doesn't change anything, if people do not wish to be in harms way they should not have to be.

on edit Sderot does have a warning system the problem for Ashkelon was that they were "unready" which seems foolish.
To shut down electricity for all of Israel is excessive and there are not enough people in IDF and its reserves with the skills to run thew plant? Seems unlikely

[Vegasaurus]

34. It's the electrical plant for the Palestinians

the one that provides them with a good portion of their electicity, that they like to bomb.

Seems more than doubly foolish, since why should Israelis risk their lives, providing power to people who just want to bomb the very plant giving them that power?

Dumb, dumber and dumbest.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vegasaurus]

10. I agree completely

Hamas deserves all the blame for refusing to give up their weapons, violence, rockets, bombings and hatred of Israel, and lets their citizens suffer as a result of their "resistance" and desire to take back all of Israel.

Blame Hamas. They are culpable.

[subsuelo]

21. How about putting the blame on the killers?

Is it really too much to ask?

:shrug:

[Vegasaurus]

22. No.

People in the territories march daily in support of Hamas and their "resistance". I saw the photographs this morning, and the signs they were carrying. They are not boycotting their murderous government, but standing up saying they will not give up their idiotic resistance.

So, if they get bombarded, it is their own damn fault. Hamas should stop the constant violence and terrorism, and the people should stop supporting them.

[subsuelo]

24. People in Israel support their government too

Let's apply your argument towards Israelis who get killed by rockets. In other words - argue that since they support their government, then it's their own damn fault.

That work for you?

[Vegasaurus]

26. Israelis are not out partying and celebrating deaths

they are not marching in support of death and martyrdom.

Big difference.

[subsuelo]

28. Are you saying that no Palestinian is innocent?

[Vegasaurus]

30. Not, not at all

I am saying that the Hamas government doesn't give a shit about its people, and that far too many citizens still seem to support the murderous "resistance" policies.

I feel particularly sorry for those who live in Gaza who don't support this way of life, and would just like to go to work and school, like normal people. I know there are lots of those, caught in the middle. However, those that disagree are in danger of being killed; they can't even write a different opinion in the newspaper.

[subsuelo]

32. Again, the problem I have with your argument is....

You can apply the same logic towards the Israeli side, but I'm quite sure you would not find that acceptable.

You could argue, for example, that "far too many Israeli citizens still support the murderous policies of their government", and therefore that justifies Hamas rocket attacks towards any and all Israeli citizenry.

Would it be fair to present that case? No, it wouldn't.

Therefore, you have a choice between:

A) Supporting bombings of civilian centers by both sides
B) Not supporting the bombings of civilian centers by both sides
C) Hypocrisy.

[Dick Dastardly]

35. You cant apply the same logic because

Hamas is firing rockets at Israeli civilians indiscriminately and doing it by hiding behind civilians. Israel is responding to Hamas attacks and targeting them not civilians. They try to minimize civilian deaths but because Hamas is hiding behind civilians there will unfortunately be some no matter how careful they are. Hamas is 100% to blame for any deaths. Israel is well within its rights to defend themselves even though there will be civilian casualties. Israel is not targeting civilians no matter how much you sermonize about it. There is no equal comparison between Israel and Hamas no matter how much you try to shift blame from Hamas to Israel.

[hifalutin]

33. Seems like they are damned

if they do and damned if they don't.

[Scurrilous]

23. Adalah: Operation Warm Winter a war crime

Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel send letter to defense and justice ministers, containing harsh criticizing against IDF operation in Gaza: 'Use of inaccurate weapons violates international law'

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3514319,00.html

<snip>

"Firing at populated areas in the Gaza Strip by IDF soldiers constitutes a violation of international law and a war crime, lawyers of Adalah – the Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel – said Monday.

They demanded that the IDF halt any operation which might lead to the killing of civilians.

A letter sent by Attorney Fatma Alajou to Defense Minister Ehud Barak, Justice Minister Daniel Friedmann, Attorney General Menachem Mazuz and Military Advocate General Brigadier-General Avihai Mandelblit, stated that "a super-principle in the humanitarian international law is the principle of distinguishing between fighters and civilians during war."

The letter contained harsh criticism against the IDF's operation in Gaza.

"According to the law, offensives must not be directed at civilians or civil targets. Another duty of the fighting side is constant caution in a bid to have pity on civilians, and the duty to select the weapons which will meet these rules."

The organization claimed that the weapons used in the Strip were inaccurate.

"Because artillery is a statistical weapon, i.e. inaccurate weapons which covers an extensive area, as the number of casualties proves, using it violates the aforementioned rules," the letter said."

[subsuelo]

25. It makes no sense - just barbaric eye for an eye logic

You bomb our civilians centers, so we bomb yours. That's what it comes down to.