Btselem: half of those killed in Gaza did not take part in the fighting

[Scurrilous]

Full title: 3 March 2008: Contrary to Israel's Chief of Staff, at least half of those killed in Gaza did not take part in the fighting

<snip>

"B'Tselem expresses grave concern at the large number of children and other uninvolved civilians among those killed and wounded in the Gaza Strip in recent days.

According to B'Tselem figures, from 27 February to the afternoon of 3 March, 106 Palestinians were killed in the Gaza Strip. Contrary to the Chief of Staff’s contention that ninety percent were armed, at least fifty-four of the dead (twenty-five of them minors) did not take part in the hostilities. In addition, at least forty-six minors were wounded.

In response to the Defense Minister's initiative to probe the legality of firing at areas from which rockets were being fired, even if the area is populated, B'Tselem reminds the military that attacks on legitimate military targets are prohibited if they are likely to cause disproportionate harm to civilians, or to breach the duty to take caution not to harm civilians. If the military’s intention is to allow shelling of general areas or whole neighborhoods from which rockets are fired, such an attack would be indiscriminate and a grave breach of the laws of war.

Given the heavy fighting that only ended this morning, B'Tselem has not been able to conduct a thorough examination of the events. However, initial examination of a few of the many incidents in which civilians were killed raise the grave concern that the Israeli army used excessive and disproportionate force, and failed to distinguish between uninvolved civilians and Palestinians who took part in the fighting. Such attacks may constitute a breach of the laws of war."

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[truedelphi]

1. Ever since December 2000 when a fire at Arafat's compound spread into the

neighborhood, and the Palestinian school kids, teachers and other staffers went running into the streets,and then the Israeli helicopters came along and started gunning into the crowd - in such a way that the gunners coud see they were shooting children, I have lost all respect for Israel.

I remember the CNN reporters being totally upset as well, in their commentary on the video footage.

[subsuelo]

3. I remember that too

And in 06 what they did in Lebanon.... how can anyone forget. Now the 08 Gaza Massacre

but it's the qassam rockets that are condemned. When Israel kills it's cheered on

[Dick Dastardly]

6. You continually make such claims of massacre and they target civilians but

when asked to explain and give evidence of your claims you dont answer. Its obvious you dont think Israel should defend itself

[subsuelo]

8. I posted an article in which a reporter in Gaza reported Israel's targeting of civilians

What more do you want?

I also asked the question, of another person that balked at the term "massacre" -- if 120 Israelis were killed, soldiers and civilians alike, but mostly civilians -- would you have a problem calling that a massacre? Never got an answer previously, perhaps you could offer one?

[Vegasaurus]

11. Pretty easy to understand

Stop firing rockets on cities and towns, stop blowing up border crossings, trying to smuggle weapons in, crawl through tunnels to blow up Israelis, and there would be NO RESPONSE.

The Israelis want nothing whatsoever to do with the Palestinian mess in Gaza. They do not want the responsibility for those million+ people, many of whom support death to Israelis (at least they are all marching in the streets saying as much).

If the militants and their supporters would leave Israel ALONE, there would not be any incursions, any deaths at all.

So simple, anyone could understand it, except the militants, apparently, who put their resistance above the good will of their citizens.

[subsuelo]

12. Palestinians say the same thing

What they say is: that Israel should stop doing this and that and the other thing, and then there would be no response from them, either.

Both sides believe they are justified in killing people from the other side. I argue in favor of a different approach, one that accepts the wrongs both sides feel, but refuses to hear any more justifications for killings of innocent people.


Now, Israelis may want nothing whatsoever to do with Gazans, but Israel did create the mess in the first place. That is a historic, indisputable fact. Those Gazans are part of the native people of the region, forced out (violently) by Israel when it was decided that Palestinians no longer had a place there. So, there is some responsibility on the part of Israel regarding what to do with people pushed off their land. I know that is an extremely bitter pill, and there is always resistance in some form or another, such as blaming the victims, denials, all sorts of moaning about how Palestinians 'had their chance' or whats the favorite phrase "never fail to miss an opportunity" something like that. But the reality will never go away. Palestinian people were kicked off their land and now you have this mess that Israel decides it doesn't want anything to do with. Well, sorry, but - it's not that simple. You can't just kick people off their land, force them into refugee camps and then say 'Please leave us alone now, we want nothing to do with you people any more'.

It doesn't work that way.

[Vegasaurus]

13. Except that indigenous people have very often had to leave (been forced off)

their lands, and no one is doing any hand wringing about those people, or worrying about the responsibility for them. Why the special dispensation for the Palestinian refugees?

Look at the Russian pogroms, the Warsaw ghettos, the millions of refugees from WWII, the Jews in Arab lands, natives is Rwanda, Chad, Darfur, should I go on? There have been indigenous people who have been forced into refugee status for millenium, and no one takes responsiblity for them.

There are currently about 30 million refugees in the world, making those in Palestine simply one very small component of a global problem.

Most refugees do not wallow in squalid camps for their whole lives, making "resistance" their goal, rather than bettering their lives. Those of us who are descendants of refugees know that our families lost everything, absolutely everything. And yet we aren't wallowing around and crying in our soup and blaming someone else, or expecting to be taken care of for the rest of our lives by a nation we loathe.

[subsuelo]

14. So if refusing responsibility doesn't make it right in those cases

It doesn't make it right in the case of the Palestinians.

[Vegasaurus]

15. You're missing my point

I am merely commenting upon the fact that there are 30 million refugees and no one gives a shit about 26/30 of them. Why so much energy, money and so forth, devoted to only the Palestinians?

My point is that there is a disproportionate amount of angst about the Palestinians, when there are other refugee groups worldwide that have things much, much worse, and no one is hand wringing about them. I guess I would have to wonder why.

One has to again wonder why again the expectations of Israel are different than for any other nation in the entire world.

[subsuelo]

19. The expectations are no different

Do you really feel comfortable with the "other people do it so why can't we" justification?

I know I can't speak for everyone, but I believe in holding every country accountable for wrongs committed to other people. In my view, no special standards apply to just the case of Israel. I have developed an interest in the situation, mainly because I find so many people defending actions that I find completely indefensible. (And that goes for both sides)

Anyway, explain away the attention and focus all you want, to me, it will never distract or lessen the responsibilities.

[Vegasaurus]

20. Other people have not wallowed all their lives

as refugees, expecting to be taken care of by a nation they want to obliterate.

You couldn't possibly hold every country accountable for the wrongs committed to another people. Or you may bang your head in frustration trying.

But there are special standards for Israel, because she is held to a different standard than the entire rest of the world. There is way more bullshit going on in other countries than in the OT (and I am not excusing settlements or what not) and yet there is more energy, time and money (and UN resolutions) spent on this situation than any in modern history.

I am surprised you are not more curious to explore why.

[Phx_Dem]

16. Your leaving out a very key fact

That when the partition plan was executed and the state of Israel came into being, all of the arab countries surrounding Israel attacked her and tried to drive out and/or kill all the jews. It didn't work, and now the Palestinians are in limbo thanks to the Arab League.

[madeline_con]

2. "... a breach of the laws of war."

What else is new over Israel's way?

[thunder rising]

4. It's not about justice or punishing the "right" people ... It's fucking GENOCIDE.

Isreal wants to exterminate the Palestinian people. They have indeed turned into the very SS that preyed upon them in Europe.

the first law of history: to "Choose your enemies carefully, for you will become like them."
http://www.allsoulsnyc.org/publications/sermons/fcsermons/choose-enemies-carefully.html

[MaryCeleste]

5. And its not just the Israelis

Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Saudi all have their fingers in this too.

[eyl]

7. Well, we try

unfortunately, we're apparently so incompetent that the Palestinian population is growing despite our best efforts

:sarcasm:

[hack89]

9. Pretty piss poor genocide, don't you think?

Palestinian population up 30 percent in the past decade.

There have been 12,000 deaths since 1948 - that is a tragedy but it is not genocide.

Read this list of death tolls in conflicts - then you will understand what real genocide is:

By Gunnar Heinsohn, University of Bremen, March 2007:

1. 40,000,000 Red China 1949-1976, Killing and artificial hunger
2. 4,000,000 Ethiopia 1962-1992, Communists, artificial hunger, genocides
3. 3,800,000 Zaire (Congo-Kinshasa) 1967/68; 1977/78; 1992-1995; 1998-present
4. 2,800,000 Korean war 1950-153
5. 1,900,000 Sudan 1955-1972; 1983-2006 (civil wars, genocides)
6. 1,870,000 Cambodia: Khmer Rouge 1975-1979; civil war 1978-1991
7. 1,800,000 Vietnam War 1954-1975 (more than 90% Vietnamese, Allies)
8. 1,800,000 Afghanistan, Soviet and internecine killings, Taliban 1980-2001
9. 1,250,000 West-Pakistan massacres in East Pakistan (Bangladesh 1971)
10. 1,100,000 Nigeria 1966-1979 (Biafra); 1993 – today
11. 1.100.000 Mozambique 1964-70 (30.000) and after retreat of Portugal 1976-1992
12. 1,000,000 Iran-Iraq-War 1980-1988
13. 900,000 Rwanda genocide 1994

snip

65. 12,000 Israel-Palestine (4.792 from 1947-1987; 1.759 1st Intifada 1987-1991; 5.300; 2nd Intifada, Arabs (ca. 80%, some 500 by other Arabs), Jews (ca. 20%).

http://tmq2.wordpress.com/2007/03/28/ranking-of-death-tolls-the-66-most-lethal-conflicts-after-1950/

[Vegasaurus]

10. Won't stop the I HATE ISRAEL crowd

from crowing that this is a genocide, when the palestinian population continues to mushroom. Thanks for posting the other stats too, of REAL genocides (of course, the Holocaust and its six million victims is not even on that list, and people want to compare 12,000 deaths in 60 years, regretable as that is, to a REAL genocide of millions?).

What are a few facts, when they get in the way of a political agenda?

[rockymountaindem]

17. That's not only really fucking insulting, it's totally wrong

Genocide? How do you square that with the fact that the population is growing?

[Phx_Dem]

18. Utter bullshit

nt.