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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 08:38 PM
Original message
Heads to the right
It is still unclear whether the terrorist who entered the Mercaz Harav yeshiva on Thursday night and killed eight of its students knew exactly what place he was entering. But the thousands of people who walked behind the coffins on Friday knew very well. "The flagship of religious Zionism" was the common expression used, the "holy of holies"; there was even a hyperbolic comparison to the Al-Aqsa Mosque in terms of sanctity. Some of the praise of the yeshiva is certainly well deserved, and nothing, of course, can justify the horrible killing of young boys in a library. Still, it would be appropriate to recall, even at this difficult hour, what this yeshiva has brought forth.

Mercaz Harav is the flagship of the last group in Israeli society still operating in the realm of ideas. Religious Zionists are the only group, aside from the ultra-Orthodox population, whose members are willing to lay down their lives for the collective and its worldview. It is a group that responds faithfully to its leaders - a group that even has leaders - and idolizes them. It is also a fairly homogenous group in terms of its thinking: Some 80 percent of its members define themselves as right-wingers. None of this is true of Israel's complacent, individualist secular public. And so we end up with a minority, 12 to 15 percent of the population, whose influence in certain areas is crucial and far exceeds its own relative size.

No one can explain in depth the magical powers of extortion this group has obtained. Nor can anyone ignore the damage it has caused the country. Without the settlement enterprise, peace might have reigned here already; without the Gush Emunim movement, supported by successive Israeli governments, there would be no settlements; and without the Mercaz Harav yeshiva, there would be no Gush Emunim. This institution, then, was the cradle of the settlement enterprise and its driving force. Most of the students killed in the terrorist attack were second-generation settlers. It should be said again, clearly and unequivocally: Their killing was a criminal act. (An unusual personal comment: On Friday I said in a radio interview, among other things, that the Mercaz Harav yeshiva was a fascist institution; right-wing circles spread a rumor on the Internet that I had said the slain students were fascists. This is not true. In any case, if my comment about the yeshiva offended people in their grief, I wish to express my sincere sorrow and apology). From Mercaz Harav emerged the rabbis that led the vilest move in Zionist history. Most of the delusional right-wing perpetrators and the mongers of hate for Arabs came from this flagship. Religious leaders such as Rabbis Moshe Levinger, Haim Druckman, Avraham Shapira, Yaakov Ariel, Zefania Drori, Shlomo Aviner and Dov Lior, all idolized by their students, raised generations of nationalist youths within those walls.

Rabbi Lior, for example, head of the Council of Rabbis of Judea and Samaria, ruled in 2004 that the Israel Defense Forces was allowed to kill innocent people. How do these words sound now, after the attack in Jerusalem? Is the permission ours alone? Back then, Lior ruled that, "There should be no feeling of guilt at the morality of foreigners." He decreed that the Knesset could not decide to evacuate settlements, and that soldiers were allowed to refuse the order to evacuate settlers. Rabbi Druckman made a similar ruling.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/962041.html
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. Informative, thanks
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. The talkbacks were something.
I thought Mr Levy had a lot of balls to bring this up so soon.
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. "Gideon Levy is a Fascist Murderer"
"Gideon Levy is what is wrong with zionism, He should be shipped to Gaza with the people that he loves."

"Gideon Levi - Author of protocols of Elders of Zion"=

"Why don't you just shut up"

I think some of the more right-leaning folks are a bit upset.

I particularly liked this one:

"Gideon Levy please explain to us why you choose to live in Israel. Why live in the only country that is the Jewish National Homeland. After all you are just as big an anti-semite as were the Nazia and are te Palestinians. How dare you blame Yeshivat Mercaz HaRav for any problems that exist in Israel today. These problems are your fault, yes you and your leftist cohorts who build false hopes in the minds of unsuspecting people, telling them that peace with the bloodthirsty moslem is possible if only it wasn`t for those subhuman religious zionists damn them. You would ask God to wipe them out if only you believed in God.
Gideon you need to live outside of Israel... experience anti semitism n your skin and maybe then you will understand the need for our own homeland. May the lord avenge those beutiful soles who were killed in cold blood. The Palestinians do nothing but prove they are the most vile form of creation and you are one of them."
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. You almost get the feeling they want him to shut up. nt
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. They're probably so stupid they think their bigoted ranting will shut him up n/t
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I doubt there is much thinking involved.
It reminds me of the post-9/11 period here, when it was worth your life to try to analyze what happened and why. Drooliani was right in the middle of the effort to make sure no unpleasant questions were allowed to be asked about who allowed it to happen and what the motives of the perpetrators might have been. It's still not a good subject to try to discuss here, although you know the historians are going to have a rich feast going over it.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. I am amused when I read the 9/11 board here on DU
Doesn't matter what Guiliani did or didn't do, the conspiracy theorists have it all explained.

Whatever legitimate questions there are about that day are compromised by the nonsense spouted by the CTs. They basically undermine all the real questions with their outlandish conclusions.
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Actually most of the nonsense comes from the official CT
We are to believe that 19 Arab men penetrated the sophisticated defense systems of the United States of America, armed only with box cutters, flight manuals, and the Holy Koran.

Right. All I know is - they had help. How much help? I don't know. Whose help specifically? Don't know. But they did not act alone.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Funny. Sounds like racism.
Anti-Semitic bullshit reigns supreme in 9-11 CT, but the idea that Arabs could have committed the horror of 9-11...well...that is just unbelievable. :eyes: They had help. It was from various groups who hate the US. They are not hard to find. I find it horrible and racist when people blame all Arabs and Muslims for the actions of those few on 9-11, but I have found that the so-called "truth-seekers" are just as bad because they either think the Jews did it or that there is no way those Arabs could have done it. Before 9-11, security checks in the US airports were a joke. After 9-11, there have been a NUMBER of breaches, which the MSM have reported.
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 06:22 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Racism is exactly what the official CT feeds into
Myself, I don't subscribe to any ridiculous "the Jews did it" theory. I find that the serious truthers also denounce that kind of racism too.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. The legitimate questions are not affected at all by the nonsense spouted by some.
The world is full of nonsense, always has been. Drooliani is an opportunistic weasel. People have been fabricating suitable "explanations" and "religions" and "theories" to support their desires and prejudices and fears since there have been people. The world does not really much care what goes on in our little brains. That is our problem.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. The problem is that the "truth movement"
has turned off a lot of people, who do not want to be affiliated with people who read like they are cohorts of David Duke's. I have followed a lot of those sites, and I don't like where they go.

The legitimate parts of the movement have been seriously compromised by the racists, perpetuating nonsense like this was a conspiracy by Jews, who want to take over the world, and that no Muslims participated in the event, etc.

There are legitimate questions, but crazies and lunatics have taken over the movement.


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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Bah. That's just an excuse.
Like I said, if they allow themselves to be manipulated into avoiding thinking about the subject out of fear of guilt by association, that is their problem. There is no movement, just a bunch of people chattering to each other.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. I fully agree
Also, while conspiracies clearly exist, I can never believe in the overarching global conspiracies that get proposed in this context. It's my view that the world is not endangered by a single 'power elite' or 'New World Order' joining together to oppress us all, but by continual feuding between lots and lots of actual and would-be 'power elites' in lots of arenas - with the innocent bystanders ending up as actual and metaphorical 'collateral damage'.

I think that there are genuine questions to be answered about what happened on 9-11, whether it was preventable, and about subsequent cover-ups of incompetence and lying. But many parts of the 'truth' movement are affiliated with very suspect people, and indeed often sound like a mirror-image of the Bushie Right: "Islamo-Fascist conspiracy" is mirrored as "Zionist conspiracy"; "Saddam MIHOP!" as "Bush MIHOP!".

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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Clearly he hit a nerve. nt
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
6. Tamir 'deeply saddened' by mob behavior during visit to yeshiva
Education minister verbally abused, kicked and spat on by protesters angry with gov't policy in front of Mercaz Harav seminary, site of Thursday's terror attack

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3517056,00.html

<snip>

"The physical pain I'm feeling now is insignificant; it is the mental anguish that hurts me more," Education Minister Yuli Tamir said just hours after being attacked outside the Mercaz Harav rabbinical seminary in Jerusalem, the site of Thursday's deadly terror attack that left eight Israelis dead.

During her visit to the yeshiva on Sunday Tamir spoke to the students, some of whom told her that they felt the government was not doing enough to fight terror.

Upon leaving the seminary Tamir was verbally attacked by dozens of youths who called out "murderer," "get out of here" and "the Left is to blame for everything." She was also kicked in the back twice.

"I came to console the students and see the scene of the attack for myself. In a matter of seconds we found ourselves surrounded by dozens of rioters who kicked me and spat at me," Tamir recounted. "It reminded me of darker days."

The education minister was eventually whisked away by police officers and security guards.

"I am deeply saddened that people cannot differentiate between a condolence visit and a political one," Tamir said. Earlier the minister told Ynet that "this reminded me of the days before (former Prime Minister Yitzhak) Rabin's murder. It's unfortunate that that there is a public which cannot put limits form itself. I only came to pay my respects to the murdered, not to engage in politics."

Meanwhile it was reported that the seminary has responded negatively to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's request to pay a condolence visit of his own, but sources in the PM's Office are still hopeful."
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. That's incredibly ugly...
Kicking and abusing a woman? Thank goodness they were merely doing that and weren't celebrating an attack on civilians or else they'd be roundly condemned by a bunch of posters here! ;)

The ugliness of revenge is coming out in spades over the past few days....
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PDJane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-09-08 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
9. Levy is the man who said
That he had been covering the conflict for many years, and could unequivocably say that Israel does not want peace.

He is quite correct.

The things that the Rabbis and the right say are every bit as vile as anything that the Palestinians have done. What they do is a daily blot on Judaism.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Do you really think that 'the (extreme) rabbis and the right' represent all of Israel?
I am sure you would be the first to rightly object if someone said that the terrorists represent all of Palestine. So why are you prepared to suggest that small right-wing factions represent all of Israel?
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PDJane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-10-08 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #11
20. No. I don't.
I do,however, believe that Israel has, as the US has, been taken over by the fanatics. They are the ones governing.

I am well aware that they represent only a relatively small portion of the population. They represent a small portion of the population in the US, too.

But that is the portion who, at the moment, have power. That's not serving the interests of either people.
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