Rightists hurl stones at Arab homes in Jerusalem

[Scurrilous]

Hundreds of extreme right-wing activists break through police barriers, enter east Jerusalem neighborhood of Jabel Mukaber in bid to destroy house of terrorist who killed eight yeshiva students in Jerusalem. Two policemen lightly hurt in clashes; 22 people arrested

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3519752,00.html

<snip>

"More than 100 extreme right-wing activists arrived Sunday afternoon at the east Jerusalem neighborhood of Jabel Mukaber and began hurling stones at houses. Large police forces were dispatched to the area and 22 of the rioters were arrested. Two policemen were lightly injured in the clashes.

Hundreds of demonstrators gathered earlier at Jerusalem's Armon Hanatziv promenade in order to march to the Arab neighborhood and destroy the house of the terrorist who killed eight students at the Mercaz Harav yeshiva about 10 days ago.

Hundreds of police officers attempted to block the protestors, but many managed to break through the barriers and reach the neighborhood.

The rightists called for revenge, and one of them told Ynet, "We are fed up with keeping silent. Jewish blood will not be abandoned. It's time to stop the defamation of God and this disgrace. We are going to destroy the terrorist's house."

[PDJane]

1. But palestinian blood can be spilled by the gallon,

apparently, and that's quite allright.

[MaryCeleste]

3. How much blood had the students killed at the yshiva spilled?

One can argue if the IDF targets civilians or if Hamas used human shields. However in this case it is clear the intent was to slaughter unarmed religious students. Afterwards there was rejoicing and dancing in the streets in Gaza and elsewhere. Jordan put it stop to in internally, but it went unimpeded elsewhere.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MaryCeleste]

6. So you support collective and non-related punishment for the deeds of others

Some of the hareidi are clearly on the right fringe, but some are on the left too.

[PDJane]

7. No. An eye for an eye isn't the answer.

However, what I am trying to point out is that, to quote Amira Haass, "The way to fight the fading memory is not merely with memorial monuments and ceremonies. It is done mainly with an uncompromising rejection of the master race ideology, which divided the world into superior and inferior races and denied the principle of equality among human beings. We were placed at the bottom of the ladder of the Nazi ideology. Would this ideology not have been criminal had we been ranked in the upper rungs? An ideology that divides the world into those who are worth more and those who are worth less, into superior and inferior beings, does not have to reach the dimensions of the German genocide to be improper and wrong--the apartheid in South Africa, for example. Thirty-eight years of Israeli occupation of the Palestinian nation have accustomed generations of Israelis to regard the Palestinians as inferior, and therefore not as deserving as we are. But hush, one must not say that out loud, because Israelis will raise an indignant cry: 'How can you compare?' In the same way, it is forbidden to demand of us--with diplomatic threats--to change our ways. Because then we will remind them of our people who were murdered."

You cannot continue an occupation of another's land, a brutal occupation that lasts for forty years, without having the occupied get tired of being shot at and kept from the land they rightfully consider theirs.

This is neither sane nor just.

[Meshuga]

8. I understand that it is horrible that so many civilians (including children) were killed

There is no way to justify that.

But does that make it right for the Yeshivah students to be killed just because of the words of others and because of their ideology? They haven't killed anyone. Are you trying to say that the deaths are justified?

You say "nice folks" so fuck'em, right? Jesus fucking Christ!

[PDJane]

9. Don't be daft.

That isn't what I said nor what I meant. There is no justice in death.

On the other hand, I do understand why people cling to the death penalty in the US. I understand why the Palestinians feel that their innocents cry out for revenge. I did not say this is right; I did say that this is human nature.

If you insist on violence, and the Israeli leadership seems to think it's the only thing that will work, then when violence is turned back on you, why is it a surprise? Violence has a very bad record for solving situtations of diplomacy.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PDJane]

13. More than half were civilians........

and the rest were not military people by the standard definition of military. The students at the Yeshiva were students, yes; of the most rabidly right-wing school in the country. That doesn't make them guilty, no. They,on the other hand, paid for the bullying of the IDF and a majority of the religious right.

Israel is not working for peace at this point, and will not get it.

The anti-semite thing has been thrown at me so often that I begin to expect it.

[MaryCeleste]

14. That non-fighters died in Gaza is clear, why is not

- The IDF say Hamas wanton use of human shields and they often held fire due to them
- Hamas say the IDF shoots at anything that moves and will shell/bomb anything above ground
There is probably some truth in both positions. However, there is no disagreement that the Yeshiva students were unarmed civilians.

The Yeshiva was attacked not for its doctrine, but because the assassin worked there and had access. It could just as easily been a liberal one. It is far from the most radical school in the country.

The people in Gaza are being bled dry by their Arab and muslim brothers who give them arms instead of food and supplies. Those nations rejoice at the attacks on Israel, ignoring the cost in blood to Palestinians that is causes. The recent addition of Grad rockets will only make the people in Gaza more miserable. Given the disproportionate power levels, a non-violent approach is clearly their best option, but their "brothers in arms" will not allow that.

Israel's position is "stop shooting at us and things will get better". It worked superbly with Egypt. Its the only practical way forward with Gaza

[Violet_Crumble]

17. I think 'stop shooting at us and things will get better' has to work both ways...

It's no good that being Israel's position if Israel is going to keep on shooting (eg carrying out killings of militants). Both sides have to stop shooting at each other for things to settle down...

[Behind the Aegis]

15. Unbelievable!

Even when the culprit is a lone Palestinian terrorist, and you appear to be making it out as if Israel is to blame for the massacre. Only one is to blame here for the massacre at the Yeshiva and that is the man who pulled the trigger and gunned down eight unarmed civilians. And, what does it matter if they were students at a right-wing school? Would the VA Tech tragedy been less of one had it been Liberty or Oral Roberts University?

BTW, it was two. Two Palestinian civilians more than those who were engaged in battle were killed. So, it is correct to say more than half, technically, but incorrect to say "most." As for the "rest were not military people," so what? They were engaged in conflict, they were not innocent by-standers.

[PDJane]

19. The fact of the matter is,

That by that definition of yours, there are NO innocent bystanders in the area.

I don't condone the shooting on either side, which is an assumption one gets labelled with as soon as one says the Palestinians may have a point.

The fact of the matter is that Israel was put there to take advantage of a myth; the myth that the area was given to the Jewish people by God. That is nonsense. The Jewish people stole the land from the original inhabitants the first time around too, using the same justification.

The students were just students, yes. How about the dozens of Palestinian students shot at their desks or at play by the IDF? What about the five month-old baby who was one of the first casualties last week, dead in his mother's arms? Those people don't seem to count as people, which is the point I've been trying to make. That is what the quote from Amira Hass is about; that there are atrocities on both sides, yes, but the fact remains that Israel is the agressor more often than not, and a genocide in which the Palestinians had no part is a stick to beat them with.

Enough.

[Behind the Aegis]

21. No, the real fact of the matter is...

...you are trying to make all Palestinians as innocents. I was very clear there were innocents killed and their were those engaged in combat who were killed. Just because there is no definitive military doesn't mean they get a "free pass" for murder and mayhem and any retaliation is just another example of the 'cruel Zionist regime.'

Please learn the history of the region. The age-old propaganda of the Jews stealing the land is getting, well, old. The vast majority of the land was purchased. During the partition, additional land was offered to both sides by the powers in charge at the time.

"The students were just students, yes. How about the dozens of Palestinian students shot at their desks or at play by the IDF? What about the five month-old baby who was one of the first casualties last week, dead in his mother's arms? Those people don't seem to count as people, which is the point I've been trying to make."

This is a load of crap. They do matter. An innocent life is an innocent life...period! Whether you or others like it or not, what happened at the Y'shiva doesn't compare to most of the deaths of the Palestinian innocents, no matter how hard you try and spin it. It is unfortunate there are no more open battlefields for groups to "duke it out," but that is the reality of today. The situation now is to make Israeli lives look less important, no matter how they are killed. There is a difference in targeting an innocent and an innocent being killed in a military operation.

What that blowhard Hass and others don't realize, is the situation is not "about the occupation, stupid" but rather, about the destruction of the sole Jewish state, removal or neutralization of Jews/Jewish influence in the region, and the 'stick' used are the Palestinians themselves!

[PDJane]

22. No. It has nothing to do with the removal of the state

Or the survival of the Jewish people as a whole. In spite of an attempted genocide at least twice in Europe, the Jews have survived and thrived.

It is solely and simply about dropping a Jewish state on the land that hasn't been theirs for 2000 years. I do know the history of the region; I also know the religious tale, and that isn't quite the truth either.

I am too old and too experienced to believe that the history as written be either Palestine or Israel is exactly correct, and put no credence at all in the religious fairy tale.

The land was not purchased. That is a myth. Some of it was purchased, yes. Some of it was sold under duress. Some of it was common land, a concept the west hasn't had for a long time. A great deal of the land was stolen, and the settlements are definitely on stolen, not purchased, land.

The vast number of Palestinians left at gunpoint, and they or their descendents are still living in refugee camps, a situation that hasn't been true anywhere in the world until now.

The original Balfour plan was to have one state in Palestine, and to have both Jews and Palestinians share the territory. Nothing was to be done that violated the rights of the indigenous people. That did not suit the zionists, precisely, and that is why the Jewish state was born in terrorism, and why terrorism has become a state tactic. The Irgun was a terrorist organization, in spite of the current romantic view, and the state was declared so that both palestine and Isralis could have peace.

The six-day war was a sham. Instead of the plucky Jewish state fighting many Arabic states, Israel decided to take territory, and provoked a "war" to do it, backed by the US and the UK, against an Arabic state that was neither equipped nor prepared to fight back.

Are Palestinians totally innocent? No. But they are a brutalized and captive people, humiliated in ways you would not credit, and on a constant, daily basis. No matter what the Israeli people or the Palestinian people or, even, the courts say, the state of Israel has been taken over by the extreme right wing, and they are under the impression that the Palestinians are not real human people, nor do they matter as much as Israelis.

Amira Hass actually lives in the Palestinian territories, and her writings, as well as others, have been instructive.

[Behind the Aegis]

25. It has *everything* to do with the removal or neutralization of Jews in the region.

The attacks against the Jewish state started from day one. This conflict has always been about too many Jews in the region. When they were given the right to self-determination, that really pissed the Arabs off.

"The land was not purchased. That is a myth. Some of it was purchased, yes." See, it is statements like that which exemplify the voluminous anti-Israeli rhetoric so common here. Some of it was sold "under duress?" I am sure that might be true, but we also know land was sold to Jews at great profit to the Arabs selling it. As for the settlements, I have no use for them.

The rest of your post is some of the most egregious propaganda I have seen in the past few days. The Six-day War was a sham?! Oh, ok. :eyes: It wasn't about defense at all, just a massive land grab, despite the fact most of the land was attempted to be returned to the original occupiers, but they didn't want them.

"The vast number of Palestinians left at gunpoint, and they or their descendents are still living in refugee camps, a situation that hasn't been true anywhere in the world until now."

You sure about that? But, it does 'prove' a point, the Palestinians are the 'stick' used by the Arab world which they try to use to beat the Jewish state to death. So who really see the Palestinians as sub-human? We know you believe the Israelis do, are you willing to admit the vast majority of the Arab and Muslim world think the same?

As for Hass, where she lives doesn't negate she is an anti-Israeli blowhard.

[PDJane]

28. All of this shows your own bias,

And since the conversation is going to go nowhere, we'll leave it here.

Hass is not anti-Israel, unless you consider anyone who is able to see both sides of the picture anti-Israel. Oh, wait, that's what this discussion is about, isn't it?

[Behind the Aegis]

29. Well we agree...the "conversation" is going no where.

Your continued use of propaganda as "history" and "facts" will not lead to anything of value, other than exposing your bias. As for Hass, she is anti-Israeli. I have read a number of her screeds and as for her "seeing both sides," that is laughable.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

24. Hey PDJane,

how do you think the world would respond if someone shot up a school dedicated to Muslim right-wingers?

[Behind the Aegis]

26. Depends...

I think most would be aghast that innocent students engrossed in study were gunned down in cold blood, then there would be the bigots that would attempt to "justify" the actions of the terrorist and "explain" how they (the students) 'had it coming.'

[LeftishBrit]

27. I hope most would be horrified.

Just like I hope most would be horrified if unarmed students were shot at Bob Jones University, or some other Christian Right institution. Just because one doesn't agree with the views of the institution, that doesn't justify killing innocent young people.

Undoubtedly there would be some right-wing nutcases who would approve of killing Muslim students; but it would be a horrible attitude on their part.

[PDJane]

30. I would like to point out that it happens, regularly,

to muslim schools in general, and there doesn't seem to be much fuss about it; it's "collateral damage."

I've been waiting for outrage for years and years.

I would point out that I have expressed the opinion that shooting young people at school or play is outrageous, but that retaliation is inevitable when you demonize and displace and belittle an entire people.

It's not that either side is right or wrong, it is that the actions of a handful of Israeli leaders are sabotaging any hope for peace or intelligent dialogue. Palestinians have been responding to the occupation, and the actions of Israel aren't going to procure safety for anyone. Military action will NOT solve the dispute; the only long-term solution is an end to the occupation and withdrawal of Israel from occupied territories, OR a one-state solution. Peace means that everyone gets a bit of what they want and they agree to let the rest go in the interests of getting along with the neighbours. Israel has shown no inclination at all to do so, in spite of all the concessions given them.

I am also aware that a majority of Israelis and a majority of Palestinians want the government to talk with Hamas. They aren't going to do that. A majority of Americans and a majority of Iraqis want the troops out of Iraq. A majority of Canadians and a majority of Afghanis want NATO troops out of Afghanistan. We all want dialogue and peacekeeping efforts instead of bombing of civilians, and since Palestine and Afghanistan and, latterly, Iraq have no armed forces to speak of, it follows that no matter how one slices and dices, all the "militants" of Afghanistan or Iraq or Palestine are civilians. Bombing failed states to rubble isn't going to assist much.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

33. 100% spot on. nt

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

2. Ahh, a eye for a eye, ya gotta love it.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

4. Makes handing out sweets look harmless by comparison, doesn't it? nt

[Vegasaurus]

20. Anything to undermine what that "celebration of death" really means nt

[breakaleg]

10. These protestors weren't shot on sight? They were throwing rocks, after all. nt

[ProgressiveMuslim]

23. The Magnes Zionist points out that the "pogrom" was well advertised.

http://themagneszionist.blogspot.com/

Planning for a Purim Pogrom and Police Passivity




Sunday's pogrom against the Jerusalem residents of Jabel Mukaber, a Palestinian neighborhood of "united and undivided" Jerusalem, was announced last week by its organizers in posters and leaflets. To be precise, the organizations behind the pogrom announced that they were going to hold a demonstration at 5 pm on Sunday, and from the demonstration would go to the house of the Palestinian who gunned down eight yeshiva students and tear it down. (As is well-known, Arab terrorists get their houses torn down, whereas Jewish terrorists get monuments built in their honor; the loonies of the right were protesting the government's delay in tearing down the house, which will occur once the court gives its ok to collectively punishing innocents. It will.)

After the right-wingers distributed leaflets last week announcing their action, one of the organizers, Nadia Matar, threw dust in the eyes of the public by saying that they would only hold a demonstration. After all, she said, if we wanted to tear down somebody's house, we would do it, and not announce it in the media.

Well, the demonstration was held (without a permit), and then the demonstrators went to Jabel Mukaber and decided to let the government tear down the murderer's house, while they would just smash cars and windows of as many Arab houses as they could. After all, if you an Arab, you are of the seed of Amalek (well, metaphorically speaking, anyway), and there is a commandment to destroy you, right?

[MaryCeleste]

31. Tell the full story - the police stopped much of it as well

[Dick Dastardly]

32. My girlfriend wishes she was shot right now , she did every jaeger shot in sight

She is hurling chunks and is nealing down praying to the porcelin god for forgiveness right now. :toast:

[MaryCeleste]

11. Another report on the event

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/125579

[Violet_Crumble]

16. Thank goodness they weren't dancing in the street. Now that would have been a cause for outrage! n/t

[eyl]

18. How many of the "dancers"

were arrested? Or faced even words of disapproval from the Palestinian government?