Testimonies from Hebron: Soldiers choke, beat Palestinians

[subsuelo]

ynet

Soldiers serving in Hebron testify to violent acts unleashed by troops, settlers on Palestinian residents

Representatives of Breaking the Silence claim that their goal is "to encourage a public debate about the moral price paid by Israeli society as a whole due to the harsh reality faced by young soldiers forced to take control of a civilian population."

According to the organization, all testimonies were investigated fully before being printed and cross-referenced with witnesses' testimonies and archives of other human rights organizations.

One of the organization's activists said that the situation in Hebron has not changed much during recent years, and that Breaking the Silence has been hearing a lot about the "moral deterioration" of the system as a whole and the soldiers subjected to it. He added that Israeli society has a duty to listen to the soldiers and take responsibility for what is being done in its name.

Four testimonies

Metal wire causes loss of hand:

Soldier: "There was one really crazy soldier in my unit, and he loved torture. One time he caused a man to have his hand cut off."

Interviewer: "What happened?"

Soldier: "Just this Arab… The soldier stole a tobacco box from him. "Suddenly the Arab came and yelled, 'thieves, thieves, I saw you.' He got close to the soldier and we tried to keep him away… We didn't know about the stealing.

"The soldier started to beat him, and everyone started pushing… It became a situation where the Arab was being beaten up badly.

"Then the soldier took a metal wire. He was really screwed up. Grabbed the Arab and started to twist it around…"

Beating

Soldier: "We were on a patrol and we saw a guy in a cab that looked like he was hiding something. We stopped the car…

"Then the rest of the guys on patrol saw the beating. Everyone jumped on him… They beat him up, really beat him up… Hit him with sticks, in the head… And then one started choking him, with two hands. He was 17 or 18 and he started yelling, 'Mama, Baba.' He kept choking him, he was starting to get blue and lose consciousness.

Choking:

Soldier: "We did all kinds of experiments to see who could do the best split in Abu Sneina. We would put them against the wall, make like we were checking them, and ask them to spread their legs. Spread, spread, spread, it was a game to see who could do it best.

"Or we would check who can hold his breath for longest."

Interviewer: "How do you check that?"

"Choke them. One guy would come, make like he was checking them, and suddenly start yelling like they said something and choke them… Block their airways, you have to press the adams apple. It's not pleasant. Look at the watch as you're doing it, until he passes out. The one who takes longest to faint wins."

[msmcghee]

1. If this is on the level . .

. . I'm glad these soldiers came forward and reported this. I hope the IDF finds and punishes whoever did this and whoever permitted it at the officer level. There's no excuse for this kind of crap.

[subsuelo]

8. I see we are not that far apart in ways of thinking, msmcghee

We are both outraged at injustices and war crimes committed by both sides. The only difference is in our perceptions of how far things have gone on the Israeli side. I hope you'll read further into the report. There is some disturbing material to read, which I've posted only a fraction of the testimonies below. But for me, it's nothing new. The descriptions here are pretty much what I've talked about previously. That serious war crimes are committed on the Israeli side, with impunity, and often these are simply acts of revenge, of crazed criminals given a gun and a green light, and even unconscionable orders handed down to soldiers who carry them out without thinking and/or without caring.

For me, if I see an injustice or criminal act I don't stay quiet about it or make excuses just because I happen to favor one side over another. I have never even tried to say it's just one side doing it. Both sides are doing awful things to one another. There is no favoritism when innocent people suffer, and there can be no excuses when crimes of war are committed.

But I would like to add, I think Jimmy Carter is right. You just *have* to sit down with all sides if some kind of peaceful resolution is to be hammered out, no matter how feared or how hated the 'enemy'. But just sitting around letting this conflict drift the way it has been, is not working. And, in my opinion, the people are not enemies of each other. It's the leaders that are settled in to this thing, riding the waves of war, who are to blame. But the people - on both sides - just want to live in peace and security.

[msmcghee]

9. I'll buy in to your moral equivalence premise . .

. . when some Hamas gunmen write up and publish a pamphlet saying how ashamed they are to be participating in the Hamas policy of purposely targeting Israeli civilians every day of the week and then celebrating when they kill some. Heck, I'd be impressed if some Palestinian civilians said something like that.

That's still the reality that must be dealt with. Insurgents who don't wear uniforms, who purposely attack civilians, who hide behind their own civilians, who call for the destruction of Israel, who teach their kids to grow up to "kill many, many Jews who are the brothers of pigs and apes" - understandably invite a particular kind of deep disgust in the soldiers who are raised to appreciate Western values and who are forced to deal with those actions and defend against them. They see their buddies killed by IED's and their families' lives and their own lives threatened by bombs hidden on pregnant women and grandmothers and even patients who come to Israeli hospitals for treatment and they see rockets filled with ball bearings falling on Israeli civilian populations - and being human they start to see the people who could do such things as less than human. That dehumanization is something that Israel is aware of and tries to guard against. It seems they didn't guard well enough.

That doesn't justify in any way members of the IDF purposely killing or torturing innocent civilians nor does it mitigate their personal responsibility or the responsibility of their officers in any way - or their government to the extent it was aware of what was happening and failed to stop it. Anyone involved in purposely killing or mistreating innocent civilians should be fully punished. But, it is still significant that Israel would not be occupying the WB or making incursions into Gaza if Palestinian militants were not trying to kill Israeli civilians and succeeding at it often enough. It happens whenever Westerners are faced with terrorists who place their ideology as more important than innocent human life. That's still the underlying reality in this conflict.

I've said it many times. War is a terrible thing. Civilians always die in war for any number of reasons - sometimes it's necessary or accidental and sometimes it's not, somebody murders them. Once wars start, because of human nature and the nature of war, that's pretty much the way things will go. That's why I say it is so unforgivable when people start wars - and even worse when they continue them when there are alternatives - and that's why those who choose to start wars are ultimately responsible for all who die in them. Ultimate responsibility has to lie with those who had the choice to avoid the terrible consequences of war but did not.

[pelsar]

12. That serious war crimes are committed on the Israeli side

oh....so killing children while they are sleeping in not a "serious" war crime..planning hard to kill as many people as possible in busses is not a serious war crime....shooting people point blank while tied to their seats in a bus is not a serious war crime....shooting thousands of missiles that cant target anything is not a "serious' war crime. Massacring children in school is not a serious "war"crime

so tell me..how do you define a serious war crime....i would like to know.....

[subsuelo]

13. where did I say any of those things?

you write: so killing children while they are sleeping in not a "serious" war crime..planning hard to kill as many people as possible in busses is not a serious war crime....shooting people point blank while tied to their seats in a bus is not a serious war crime....shooting thousands of missiles that cant target anything is not a "serious' war crime. Massacring children in school is not a serious "war"crime

Where have I ever said, or even implied any one of those things?

Never have. I've always condemned the serious war crimes committed by both sides. It's the war crimes by the Israeli side that always get defended and excused though, I can sure tell you that!

[pelsar]

14. back up two posts #8

That serious war crimes are committed on the Israeli side, with impunity,

care to explain and define?

[subsuelo]

15. huh?

Again, you wrote: killing children while they are sleeping in not a "serious" war crime..planning hard to kill as many people as possible in busses is not a serious war crime....shooting people point blank while tied to their seats in a bus is not a serious war crime....shooting thousands of missiles that cant target anything is not a "serious' war crime. Massacring children in school is not a serious "war"crime

Question was - where did I say or even imply any of those things?


In regards to the war crimes committed on the Israeli side, you could start with the testimonies posted to this thread

[pelsar]

16. define your serious war crimes...

you wrote that israel committed the "serious war crimes"...i'm wondering how do you define what is serious and what isnt?

and if israel committed the serious ones, that means that the Palestinians do NOT commit the serious ones...hence my curiosity

[subsuelo]

63. you've read the testimonies posted here?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

2. I visited Hebron many years ago....

I was terrified.

[subsuelo]

3. Testimonies - Routine

Testimonies - Routine

Name: ***
Rank: First Sergeant
Unit: Nachal

The Battalion Commander would tell the Company Commander: your guys are in the territores, there is a "code red", what the say today in the US, and mangae. What do you mean "manage"? There still wasn't a seperation into areas, no rules of engagement. Everything is built slowly. How you deal with the fact that the arabs in the area are getting to you. It's like you decide, that until there isn't a constitution, then there is survival of the fittest. Who is giving orders, that doesn't matter. Whatever is decided will happen. If you are at a point when you think something is rigth, fire a round into Nablus, so you tell your Commander that you were fired at, and you shoot back. Tha'ts how your commander works as aweel, and he passes his ideas to the Battalion Commander, who probably also thinks that that is the right way to act.

"I did not think"

Rank: Staff Sergeant
Unit: 401 Armor unit
Description: What does “crazy mess in the territories” mean?

Crazy mess…I was in a combat division in which – how to say it in Hebrew? - "there was neither law, nor judge" in this division. Everybody does whatever he wants. And I, specifically, did whatever I wanted...

What is 2000cell?
2000 cell are 2000 machine-gun bullets. Out there they used to shoot at us a lot. Really: every day. Grenades, missiles, everything. So there was this order that every once in a while all weapons have to shoot towards a wall, so it doesn’t hit the houses or anything else. But the freedom that we’ve had…we fired a lot. And 2000 bullets, automatic fire, directed at the whole city, at houses and at doors, was something that everybody did, not just me. I do not know why I did it.
What were you thinking when you did it?
I do not know. I was with the gun. I did not think. In the army I never thought. And I used to come home and tell about it to my friends, which means I was not ashamed of it. Nothing. I did what I was told to do. And besides, everybody did it. That was the custom - officers and such, everybody knew. It never happened that they had told me to shoot here or there… and I would stop to think ‘what if’… First I took the shot; later, if I thought at all, it would always be too late. I never thought while I was doing that.

Unit: 50th battalion, Nahal
Place of incident: Hebron
Description:

An outpost in the heart of a Palestinian neighborhood, a whole floor in a Palestinian house.
In the post are a commander, two soldiers from the Hebron troop and two snipers.
During a reconnaissance of the Border Police 3 policemen arrived at the post and out of boredom shoot 3 gas grenades aimlessly into the town.

A Body a Day

Rank: First Sergeant
Unit: Armored Corps
Place of incident: Gaza Strip
Description:

the open-fire orders would constantly change. Meaning: there were times when – ‘Every person you see on the street, kill him.’ And we would do it. We wouldn’t think. We would just do it. I am talking about certain periods, not all the time. The first time we were deployed in Gaza there was a time when, say, at 1 am, we would have to go on an operation – to demolish some Palestinian police building. And the open-fire orders were: “Every person that is on the street – shoot to kill. Don’t mind whether he has or has no gun on him.” There were such cases. And at other times, only if the person had a gun, or… It would change from place to place. There were places like the fence, times when they would infiltrate… There were times when every person spotted in the general area of the fence, even if it was relatively distant …. ‘See him in the vicinity of the fence: shoot to kill’; not thinking twice about it. And I tell you we would do it. I wouldn’t begin in such a case to try to scare him off, or anything like it. In the end it got a lot calmer, for there were agreements and all. But at the beginning, at the early period of my basic training, each day, someone would have killed someone, or shoot an innocent person…

Did your commanders instruct you in briefing before operation that the open-fire orders were “Shoot in order to…”?

Yes. Commanders meaning: battalion commander and up.

On a routine operation, when fire is being shot, will there be an investigation?

It depends. Depends on the commander… first of all, there were these commanders who wouldn’t report nothing, anything; they ‘rounded the corners’ when it came to such things.

[Scurrilous]

4. Our reign of terror, by the Israeli army

In shocking testimonies that reveal abductions, beatings and torture, Israeli soldiers confess the horror they have visited on Hebron

<snip>

"The dark-haired 22-year-old in black T-shirt, blue jeans and red Crocs is understandably hesitant as he sits at a picnic table in the incongruous setting of a beauty spot somewhere in Israel. We know his name and if we used it he would face a criminal investigation and a probable prison sentence.

The birds are singing as he describes in detail some of what he did and saw others do as an enlisted soldier in Hebron. And they are certainly criminal: the incidents in which Palestinian vehicles are stopped for no good reason, the windows smashed and the occupants beaten up for talking back – for saying, for example, they are on the way to hospital; the theft of tobacco from a Palestinian shopkeeper who is then beaten "to a pulp" when he complains; the throwing of stun grenades through the windows of mosques as people prayed. And worse.

The young man left the army only at the end of last year, and his decision to speak is part of a concerted effort to expose the moral price paid by young Israeli conscripts in what is probably the most problematic posting there is in the occupied territories. Not least because Hebron is the only Palestinian city whose centre is directly controlled by the military, 24/7, to protect the notably hardline Jewish settlers there. He says firmly that he now regrets what repeatedly took place during his tour of duty.

But his frequent, if nervous, grins and giggles occasionally show just a hint of the bravado he might have displayed if boasting of his exploits to his mates in a bar. Repeatedly he turns to the older former soldier who has persuaded him to speak to us, and says as if seeking reassurance: "You know how it is in Hebron."

more

[subsuelo]

5. Testimonies - Settler Violence

Testimonies - Settler Violence

A New Illegal Outpost
Rank: First Sergeant
Description:

In Hebron, the settlers built an illegal outpost and they decided that the local population could not use the route that the settlers used on their way to prayers, despite the fact that they had no authority to do so. Whenever an Arab walked by they would throw stones and shout at him and sometimes even beat them. The settler’s children heaped abuse on the Arabs and pregnant Arab women. They denigrated the religious soldiers in our platoon and said that they did not deserve to be religious

Arab Festivities
Rank: First sergeant
Unit: Battalion 50, Nachal Infantry Unit
Place of incident: Hebron
Description:

During a patrol in Hebron which took place during an Arab holy day and there were festivities of food and fun. The Jewish residents of Hebron started to run about and over turn Arab stalls and I personally saw “Magav” (Border) policemen helping them and beating Arabs, telling them to shut up and be quiet.

[subsuelo]

6. Testimonies - Killing/ Murder

Testimonies - Killing/ Murder

Revenge

Date: 2/19/2002
Rank: lieutenant
Unit: Paratroop Reconnaissance Unit (SayeretTzanchanim)
Place of incident: Palestinian check point in the Nablus area
Description:

We didn’t sit through any briefing , maybe only officers did, I don’t remember. But I do remember we were told to shoot at the Palestinian policemen.
Was ‘revenge’ mentioned?
We used it, indeed. That was at our level and at the level of the unit commander. Again, I don’t remember if the Brigade Commander used that term… but that was what we were told. Even if it wasn’t spelled out, it was clearly implied.
...

It was not investigated, as also the issued firing order were not at all depending on whether (the others) were armed or not.
Regardless of whether armed or unarmed, shoot?
Yes, at Palestinian policemen.

Old Man Near a Tunnel

Rank: First Sergeant
Unit: Giv’ati Infantry Unit
Place of incident: Gaza
Description:

We marked all the ‘extermination-zones’ to which they are not allowed to come close. We decided that every one who comes close we shoot a warning shot, and if he doesn’t run away, shoot towards the legs. For, after all, this is a residential area.

Whoever comes close to the route?

To the tunnel. Because the tunnel was closer to their area. If they got close to the route they would have been killed. But the tunnel was close to their houses, so it was decided that no one is to come close to the tunnel. Perhaps there is ammunition there; they didn’t want them to come close to the tunnel. So one man came close to the tunnel. You could see him. An older person – about 30 or 40 years old.

Unarmed?

No. He wasn’t armed. Just walking about – I don’t want to say he was innocent, I don’t want to make any assumptions. He was walking in the general area of the tunnel. They shot him. He got a bullet here, and fell down.
In the chest.
Yes. He fell down, then stood up, made a few steps, and then dropped dead. I tell them “Why?!” He goes: “No reason, he just got close, they killed him.” I say, “Why didn’t you shoot his legs? Why the chest? Chest is good, and legs are no good?” – It wasn’t from a great distance, and this was a sniper shooting. – “No reason. You know…” I ask, “No one knows about it, right?” – “Obviously not.”

Revenge

Rank: First Sergeant
Unit: Yael Reconnaissance Troup
Place of incident: Palestinian check point in the West Bank near Rama
Description:

Our briefing was also about 2 minutes long, defining our action as a revenge, while I was still deliberating, asking ‘what had they done?’ ‘who are they?’. The answer was: Palestinian policemen. On my question ‘what did they do?’ the answer was’ there was a suspicion that the terrorist who killed our 6 came through that (Palestinian) checkpoint. Suspicion, but no concrete evidence. But I was told: it doesn’t matter; they took six of ours, and we are going to take six of theirs.

That’s the expression used?

That’s the expression: ‘revenge’.

...

From the excitement of the battle they punched holes, punching him completely. At the retreat from the cemetery I went to check, to ‘confirm kill’ and also to take his rifle away. I reached him and he was smashed…. a completely smashed body. I turned the body around. It was a guy in his mid-fiftieths or sixtieths, very old. No arms. Later we understood, that, including the one at the cemetery, no one of them was armed.

[subsuelo]

7. Testimonies - Patrols

Testimonies - Patrols

Nis 100 per kid

Rank: First Sergeant
Unit: Paratroopers
Place of incident: Beit Furik
Description:

Kids were killed?

Kids were killed accidentally.One aims at the legs – shoot them in the back and kill them
.
How do you find out later whether they were killed?

reports, later on, from the coordination and liaison office, the Palestinians report. There is cooperation in this regard. So kids get killed. For a soldier it means nothing. An officer can get a 100 or 200 Shekel fine for such a thing.
100, 200 Shekel for a kid?

Yes.

Prison?

No, no.
Trial? Is such a thing seriously investigated?

No. I am sure it does not get beyond the battalion commander. I don’t know in which people were investigated. I cannot tell you for certain that it didn’t happen… but I haven’t seen them being taken for investigation, and I know nothing was done about that later on.

Shooting water-tanks
Rank: Staff sergeant
Unit: 401 brigade, Armored forces
Place of incident: Tul Karem refugee camp
Description:

We used to patrol there with what we called "a heavy brick": armored vehicles and tanks that patrol the streets. Mainly to draw fire at them, but with otherwise no real purpose in a curfew.
Draw fire?
There were many targets like that. The idea was to draw fire and to shoot someone down. We did not need to be provoked . Sometimes we shot towards a wall or something… we always hoped to make a contact. So we went towards the refugee camp in Tul Karem, a fire was opened at us, nobody got hurt, and after a while all the water-tanks in the area were shot. Later I saw them leaking.

Our presence

Rank: Sergeant (res.)
Unit: Battalion 97, Nachal Haredi
Place of incident: Ein El Farah village in the Mountain ridge
Description:

The more we stayed in the village, the tension within the population rose and a group of children gathered about 300 meters from us. They began to shout abuse at us and throw stones in our direction. The stones never landed near us. The Platoon Commander and the Section Commander asked the sniper, First Sergeant *****, to come forward and check the distance to the children. He told them that the children were about 300 meters away. The Platoon Commander ordered him to fire a live round at the street lamp near the children. The soldier maintained that at this range he could not guarantee any degree of accuracy but he was still ordered to fire. The soldier set up his firing position and asked the Platoon Commander to explain the order. The Platoon Commander said that he was only checking him out and making fun of him. We had already been in the village for over 4 ½ hours and the inhabitants were massed in the streets and this group of children was the only group to threaten us. The Platoon Commander called on one of the soldiers to fire tear gas at the children. The soldiers then also asked the Platoon Commander for a reason to open fire. The Platoon Commander lost his patience, took the soldier’s weapon and gave it to the signaler and ordered him to fire, which he did.

[kayecy]

10. Can we have a comment from Pelsar on these IDF activities please?. .... n/t

[pelsar]

11. pelsars comments....

As far as i am concerned they should be thrown out of their units, put in jail and then sent to do community work in an arab village..or something like that.


i havent been in Hebron for many years..have heard the stories and believe them. There was also an museum exhibit of the soldiers who were there.... The fact is the occupation has a very bad affect on the morality of those doing the occupation. It gives incredible power to kids who have little experience in life with very vague rules.

The occupation also muddles the moral lessons of democracy as it allows for a two tiered justice system: one of citizens and the other for non citizens. While this is true in all countries the occupation makes it worse and is moral drain on the young soldiers that are sent to do the states bidding.

You also might notice that many times the orders are actually questioned during the testimonials....

___

the summary is: the occupation is bad for israel on a moral plane (and for the Palestinians on a day to day basis) and should be removed as soon as possible.....the only thing worse than the occupation is attacks on israel and terrorism as per gaza and lebanon, hence the occupation continues.

[kayecy]

17. Thank you Pelsar......I appreciate your view on these reports, but.......

.
Thank you Pelsar......Your comments on these reports are interesting and do you credit.....It is a pity you felt it necessary to add your last line.

...the only thing worse than the occupation is attacks on israel and terrorism as per gaza and lebanon, hence the occupation continues.

You blame the occupation on 'terrorist attacks'...Do you think if the terrorists accepted an Israel with its borders on the Green Line and stopped attacks completely for months or even years, Israel would ever agree to pull back to the Green Line and negotiate as equals with the Palestinians for any land Israel wished to keep east of the green Line?
.

[pelsar]

18. i dont blame the attacks on just the occupation...

israels very existence to some is enough for attacks...for others its the 67 occupation...there are a wide variety of groups attacking israel each with their own agenda....

More than half of israel has already accepted the principle of a Palestinian State somewhere along the green line....to get there, they have to stop attacking FOREVER (or to be brutally honest, keep it limited in violence and geography to the occupied territories-as per intifada I...) The settlers are infact a small noisy minority, that most of israel has no need for.....but until the Palestinians (or the leadership) earn the trust (yes, it may not be fair, but there it is) of the israeli population, little will change.

I have no idea what negotiating not as equals means. Negotiation is based on what each group has vs what they want, negotiations is designed to bring about a satisfactory solution to those same groups, that they agree to. The fact that there is negotiation mean each group has something the other one wants.

[kayecy]

20. Negotiations between equals means what it says......

......I have no idea what negotiating not as equals means.

Let me spell it out for you.....Any negotiations at the moment are between unequal parties.....Israel can threaten to continue the occupation until it gets what it wants.....The Palestinians have no such cards in their hands....You may not agree that Palestinians have a very poor hand to negotiate with, but I think most Palestinians would.

Negotiations between equals means what it says....If Israel wants to keep Ariel etc, it must be prepared to offer the Palestinians something which they want... (eg a strip of land between Gaza and the West Bank)......However, if the parties cannot agree, then the default position is that the border remains exactly along the Green Line.


I repeat my question.....If the terrorists agreed to a permanent peace, recognized Israel with its borders on the Green Line and stopped their attacks completely to show Israel that they were sincere and could be trusted, would Israel then agree to pull back to the Green Line and negotiate as equals with the Palestinians?.
.
.

[pelsar]

22. i'm afraid i still dont understand.....

for one thing...nothing is "equal" in this world...never was never will be. Israel can continue the occupation and the Palestinians can continue to attack....forever (as per PMs assertion and belief).

The Palestinians, those doing the fighting believe they have god on their side and therefore are morally superior....same can be said for the israelis (having "right" on their side)

i dont know if you aware but the whole principle of taba was the trading of land to offset the larger settlements and no more attacking. That was the end of the negotiation, whether it was agreed to "as equals" i would assume so, since both parties agreed. That principle has generally been accepted in israel.

[kayecy]

26. Would Israel accept the Green Line as its border subject to mutually agreed land swaps?.....

.
OK, forget "negotiating as equals", forget Taba, forget those with "god on their side" etc......If all Palestinians, including Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Abbas etc could prove that they have all now rejected violence, accepted Israel with borders on the Green Line, would Israel accept the Green Line as its border subject to mutually agreed land swaps?

You can surely give a straight-forward answer to that?
.

[pelsar]

27. thats been agreed to already...

way back in 2001

[kayecy]

28. Olmert - "The Ariel bloc will be an integral part of Israel, whatever happens.....Ariel is Israel."

.
I am glad to hear you say so, but the evidence is that whatever was said in 2001, it is not the policy of the present Government of Israel:

Olmert said March 15th, 2006: "The Ariel bloc will be an integral part of Israel, whatever happens.....Ariel is Israel."

If Israel wanted to show the Palestinians it is serious about negotiating borders why would Olmert give such a categorical assurance?

Why doesn't Israel make its negotiating position clear?.....It says nothing in public and continues to expand settlements.


Despite your bland assurances that the Green Line was agreed to as an initial negotiating position since 2001, facts on the ground show the Palestinians (including the terrorists) the true intentions of Israel.
.

[pelsar]

32. gaza

the Palestenains have made their position very clear...withdraw and we'll use the better positions to further our attempts to terrorize and kill israelis.

and they're pretty serious about it.

all evidence points toward any further withdrawl, will not doubt not be good enough for some Palestinians who will then use that as an excuse, similar to the hizballa, to try to kill and terrorize israelis

any and all attempts to show good faith, an attempt to change the status, stop the cycle all point toward gaza: Israel withdrawls and in return gets a daily dose of missiles. When that stops and only when that stops will the Palestinians and their supporters have a leg to stand on..in the meantime, the missiles are being launched daily in the attempt to kill more israelis.

not to mention the attempts to kill israelis that transport fuel and aid to the gazans.....
______

israels position is clear: stop trying to kill us.

the principle of the agreement is there, its implementation is a long long long way off.....gaza
___

it took people here a very long time to actually accept that the egyptian/gaza border was actually controlled by egypt and gaza (and not israel)...it will take also a very long time before there is acceptance that when the Palestinians in gaza shoot missiles daily into israel, that the responsibility for the continuation of the war and israeli incursions in their daily lives lies with their own choices...and when they chose not to try to murder israelis daily only then will there be a chance for change.

[kayecy]

35. What do the Palestinians have to do to get Israel to agree to negotiate from the Green Line?....

Gaza....the Palestinians have made their position very clear...withdraw and we'll use the better positions to further our attempts to terrorize and kill israelis.....and they're pretty serious about it.

Very stupid I agree......But Israel doesn't have to be equally stupid does it?....It has made it perfectly clear that Ariel is not up for negotiations.


What does Israel gain by expanding settlements?


The truth is that Israel wants to negotiate from a position of strength and wants to keep the occupation going until the Palestinians bend to Israel's demands over keeping Ariel etc.......If you do not agree, just put into simple words what you think the Palestinians have to do to get Israel to agree to negotiate from the Green Line.
.

[pelsar]

39. whats hard to understand here?

the Palestinians simply have to prove to us in israel that, given the opportunity, they will concentrate of improving their own lives and not try to kill israelis....in fact to be really specific because we do have a "pecking order"...not try to kill israelis within the green line.

____

what do the Palestenains have to do?...i've think i've mentioned it a zillion times
make gaza work, and stop using it to try to kill israelis....thats all.

______

the settlements to most israelis, those living within the green line are no longer an issue. Before gaza one could claim they were the stumbling block to peace and there was no proof otherwise, and hence were in the news often....not any more.

removal of settlements from gaza only brought terrorism to beyond the green line: so it obviously not the settlements to every israeli i know.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

55. So... when does Israel have to prove its intentions? 7 years into an internationally recognized

peace process and there were more illegal settlements than ever!

[pelsar]

67. and the other side?...can you say it?

whereas israel continued building and expanding settlements.....can you list what the Palestinians did that was not within the accords?

[kayecy]

59. Great, lots of Palestinians will be pleased to hear you say that....But does Olmert agree with you?.

.......what do the Palestinians have to do?...i've think i've mentioned it a zillion times.....make gaza work, and stop using it to try to kill israelis....thats all.

Great...I am sure lots of Palestinians will be pleased to hear you say that....But they would be infinitely more pleased if the Israeli Government said it as well.....said it loud a clear:
“Make Gaza work, stop all attacks on Israelis and we, the Government of Israel will negotiate in good faith from the Green Line”

So why doesn’t Israel do just that?.

Ordinary Palestinians would then have something to show Hamas etc that there was an alternative to terrorist attacks......As it is, Israel says nothing about negotiating from the Green line, and by expanding the settlements they make it clear that they are not up for negotiation.

If Olmert thinks like you, why did he say "The Ariel bloc will be an integral part of Israel, whatever happens.....Ariel is Israel."?

These are two quite simple questions, but you seem to prefer to talk about Gaza, Taba...in fact anything but answer the question!

.......the settlements to most israelis, those living within the green line are no longer an issue.

You may think settlements are no longer an issue but the April 2008 poll of the Tami Steinmetz Center for Peace Research shows otherwise:
“The survey also found that a majority of Israeli Jews (63%) who would prefer most settlements to be part of Israel, only 23% preferring to leave the settlements and return to the Green Line.”
.

[pelsar]

68. your under an illusion....

that the politicians words are made of concrete and are never changed.

its now what olmert says now, or what sharon said 2 years ago or what abbas says today...do you really thing anyone believes any of them?....all are in temporary jobs. The Palestinians should want to make gaza work because its in their own self interest to live in peace with out getting bombed every two days...and when that happens israelis will take notice..but its up to them to decide



and most of the settlements will probably stay with the land tradeoff as in taba......thats old news

[kayecy]

69. Is Israel completely stupid?.....Does it not realize the impact of the expansion of settlements?

....its now what olmert says now, or what sharon said 2 years ago or what abbas says today...do you really thing anyone believes any of them

You may not believe what Israeli politicians say but the Palestinians have learnt to note every word and form their own opinion of what Israel's real intentions are.

Is Israel completely stupid?.....Does it not realize the impact of words like Olmert's and expansion of the settlements?.....It is not just the Palestinians, but just about every western democracy has warned Israel that such actions are, to say the least, not helpful.

You say the occupation continues because of terrorist attacks and the Palestinians inability to organize a civil society when blockaded into Gaza....Does it not occur to you that Hamas etc could reasonably say the same about Israel?.....Terrorist attacks must continue because of the occupation and because of Israel’s inability to accept that the settlements are up for negotiation.

.....and most of the settlements will probably stay with the land tradeoff as in taba......thats old news

You amaze me....You are in the middle of a never-ending conflict and you don't seem to care!
.

[pelsar]

71. facts on the ground count....not words...

ask PM for an opion of what she thinks of the politicians and their words vs the facts on the ground. The Palestinians are very aware of israels different politicians but more importantly have learned to read the landscape..just as israelis have.

for reasons unclear, you think olmerts words really have an affect....i doubt either the Palestinians or israelis think much of what he says...hes not a begin, rabin, or sharon.

and yes hamas does say that their attacks continue because of the settlements and those settlements include haifa....so that means they cant create a civil society in gaza?

_______

yes i'm in the middle of war and have been for a long time....do you have any evidence that the Palestinian leadership can control the various armed groups?..that they are educating their youth to live side by side with israel?....do you have any evidence that you can show that if israel does withdraw from the westbank to whatever the negotiated settlement with the PA leadership is, that kassams and mortars wont fall on jerusalem, etc?

[kayecy]

72. Do you know how many Israelis were killed in 1998 and 1999?..

....do you have any evidence that the Palestinian leadership can control the various armed groups?..

Sadly, no..... but Hamas could equally ask if you have any evidence that Israel is not planning to continue expanding settlements until a Palestine state becomes impossible?

...do you have any evidence that you can show that if israel does withdraw from the westbank to whatever the negotiated settlement with the PA leadership is, that kassams and mortars wont fall on jerusalem, etc?

Again no......But after 40 years of occupation, check-points, barriers, indignities etc, I think the time has long passed when we can expect an occupied people treated like that to be able to demonstrate restraint before Israel shows good faith (....please don’t bother to cite Israel’s self-interested retreat from Gaza as demonstrating anything.)


The following statistics may indicate a way forward:
“As economic and social conditions in the West Bank and Gaza, together with the levels of optimism, improved, levels of violence showed a steady decline. For example, whilst the number of Israelis killed in suicide attacks averaged 40-50 in the three years immediately following the Oslo agreement, 1997 saw this number drop to 24, and in 1998 and 1999 there were no Israelis killed by such attacks.”

If Israel gives hope of fair negotiations and improves the economic and social situation of Palestinians, the violence is likely again drop to zero...Is it not worth a try instead of constantly blaming the other side and getting nowhere?

All it needs is for Israel to state that it would accept Taba as a starting point for negotiations, or better still, simply state...“Stop all attacks on Israelis and we, the Government of Israel will negotiate in good faith from the Green Line”.....The truth is it can’t do it because it is in hock to Jewish extremists, but only Israeli voters can do something about that!
.

[pelsar]

73. so all israel has to say:

...“Stop all attacks on Israelis and we, the Government of Israel will negotiate in good faith from the Green Line

...and thats it?...the PA/Fatah/islamic jihad/hamas/als aska brigades etc will all of a sudden stop with the resistance?

you've got to be kidding...perhaps you should ask PM what she thinks of your proposal (make sure shes not drinking any coffee at the time....)

notice how you've made it clear that in fact there is no one who actually controls all those various Palestinian groups who can in effect guarantee that they wont continue the attacks.. and your comparing that to the Israeli govts decisions to continue or not continue to increase the settlements. What your saying is, and what we've seen in gaza is that the israeli govt does in fact, when it deems its in its self interest can remove/control the settlers, whereas the PA cant control its various resistance groups....its pretty clear that after any israeli withdrawl from the westbank, kassams will appear, so the question is what then?

you write of improving their economic situation...how?..open the gates?...and what happens with the suicide bombers appear again (they keep on trying by the way, but catching them these days is not very dramatic)....do you propose that israel accept suicide bombers? attacks on the terminals in gaza?

___

btw the PA will only do whats in their self interest, so too hamas, and every other social/national group....i doubt you have any examples of a group doing something against their own self interest...thats how it works.

the problem with gaza is that it is the only place where the Palestinians rule their own....and we see where their priorities are, its very enlightening and not be ignored as you so want to....

[kayecy]

74. Nothing would change unless the violence stopped......isn’t that what you want?

......you've got to be kidding...perhaps you should ask PM what she thinks of your proposal (make sure shes not drinking any coffee at the time....)

If you don’t think the Palestinians want to get rid of the settlements you must be deaf....I have made one suggestion, but Israel could offer anything the Palestinians want, risk-free, if they state that whatever they are offering will not happen until there has been no attacks for two years or whatever.....If it genuinely wants a solution on fair terms, what does Israel have to lose?

.....What your saying is, and what we've seen in gaza is that the israeli govt does in fact, when it deems its in its self interest can remove/control the settlers, whereas the PA cant control its various resistance groups....its pretty clear that after any israeli withdrawl from the westbank, kassams will appear

On the contrary, if the Israel Government followed my suggestion, there would be no more kassams from the West Bank than there are now.....nothing would change unless the violence stopped......isn’t that what you want?

.....the problem with gaza is that it is the only place where the Palestinians rule their own....and we see where their priorities are, its very enlightening and not be ignored as you so want to....

Gaza is a problem now but Israel is unlikely to solve the problem by killing more Palestinians.

I have shown you that, contrary to what you claimed, Israel has achieved at least two years of relative peace - when it was serious about negotiations!.....I have suggested that if Israel genuinely wanted another period of peace, all it had to do was stop settlement expansion and make a firm offer conditional on the cessation of violence.....You seem to think that what is happening in Gaza, makes such an offer impossible.....Why?


You seem to prefer pointing the finger at Hamas, Gaza, Palestinian infighting, miss-rule, terrorist attacks, in fact anything rather than be willing to consider possible solutions which would cost Israel nothing and may even elevate its relations with the rest of the world....why?
.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

75. Of course they do. Those settlements speak louder than any words

as a testament to Israel's intentions.

[breakaleg]

29. you forgot to add a "but". I imagine you laughing hysterically as you wrote that.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

31. I heard a pundit on NPR 2 days ago castigating Carter for dealing with terrorists who insist

Irael RETURN TO THE '67 BORDERS!!!

As though that is a terrorist demand!!!!!!!

I about had a car accident!

[ProgressiveMuslim]

19. If you remove the fact that your are on the receiving end...

perhaps you could see that the evil in institution that prompts those attacks is actually worse.

[pelsar]

21. occupation is bad

The institution of an occupation being evil?....i would agree. Restricting a peoples freedom by force cannot be described as "good" in any terms.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

23. Israel's 40+ year tyranny over the WB and Gaza is nothing short of evil.

It's a lot more than bad.

It has deprived the indigenous people of life, land, travel, education... every basic right the rest of us take for granted.

Its implementers have murdered, stolen and cheated. They have destroyed youth, communities and families.

Its implementers have schemed, lied and misled.

I wonder if there is anything like it -- other than South Africa -- in terms of breadth and scope in modern times?

[pelsar]

24. do you really want a list?

seriously...can you put it into proportion?......
______

i really dont think you "do yourside" any good with the hyperbole...in fact i would say it harms it....as do all the calls of apartheid, nazism, ghettos etc....

[Vegasaurus]

25. LOL Where could we start with this list?

Rwanda, the Sudan?

We could compile quite a list of peoples who have undergone awful atrocities, much worse than the Palestinians.

It isn't to make it all "relative", but to imply or state directly that this is the worst in modern times?

Hyperbole at its very finest.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

30. Yes. I'd like to see a list of nations that has waged a sustained occupation,

with a daily military presence in the midst of the occupied, and continuously murdered and robbed the population over 40+ years.

Show me the list.

[LeftishBrit]

33. China, for example

[kayecy]

36. Israel claims to be a western democracy....Why insult it by comparing it with China?..n/t

[ProgressiveMuslim]

43. Has China had troops on Tibetan soil murdering, expropriating land, creating

and expanding settlements, jailing tens of thousands, restricting movement, restricting education, creating collaborators, on a DAILY BASIS for 40 years?

[pelsar]

34. it is unique....

that i grant you...but not for "nobel reasons" or reasons of principle or anything like that.....the reason this has been going on for so long (and i would start from at least 48) is to a large degree the way the Palestinians have been used and manipulated by not just the arab world but by the worlds anti semites as well as your good meaning naives western progressive.....

the Palestinians are hardly the only ones who were victimized in war/lost a war/duped to start a war/gambled on winning and lost... and lost their homes so many years ago..in fact the worlds history is quite full of such things. I do believe they are the only one who has their own special status within the arab world where they cannot have citizenship, own land, work in certain professions etc..i do believe the have special status in the UN that reaffirms their status as refugees, generation after generation and keeps the fire burning.

Not only that they are probably the only ones to have a multitude of outside countries feeding them with different ideologies and money and weapons designed not just to kill israelis but Palestinians as well who dont "toe the line.".....

they are unique in their status....but its not for their benefit...

______________

btw, are you aware of the goings on within gaza today under the Palestinian govt of hamas?......a variation of the taliban appears to be in progress

[azurnoir]

37. Pelsar just what then do suggest the Palestinians do?

You blame the UN for giving them refugee status, but if no other country will accept them, Israel has been unwilling to give up land other then Gaza, and then only under the tightest of restrictions, just what are they to do?

Edited to add: Stop the rockets does not cut it here, from 1967 to 2001 there were no rockets, that is 34 years and still no Palestinian state, you can bring up the 2000 Intifada but the act that touched it off is conveniently forgotten, did Sharon not know what the result of his actions would be, if so the next question is how did he become PM because he apparently does not the brains to fill out the "application" for the job.

[pelsar]

40. preintifada....

the intifada I was a grass roots, reasonable response to the occupation......it was limited in violence and in geographic area...and because of those two factors, for the first and only time in their entire history, the Palestinians "received" land and the start of self government.....it was a start....but then came intifada II and the strategy changed....... far more violent and attacked israelis throughout israel....and they lost not just what they had gained in intfiada I..but far far more.)
________

I think the Palestinians have been screwed by everyone...their arab brothers, the nice progressives, and the UN for creating an organization that promotes the continuation of their refugee status. You ask what were their real choices?

now i get to say "i dont know".

Most were victims of the 48 war as others started the fighting (arab irregulars, "individual criminal elements" etc), fast forward to gaza, most are still victims of hamas ruling, tribal elements etc...they were used by arafat, used by every arab dictatorship that refused them citizenship..... Because this thing has been dragged out for so long with so many different agendas involved...i dont even know if there is a solution in the immediate future without something very dramatic happening on the Palestinian side.

[azurnoir]

41. Don't know if this is "drama"

but a new election would not hurt, along with the unloading of all of the current "leaders" from both Fatah and Hamas, now is this possible? who would replace them? Marwan Barghouti would be a place to start, but ruling from a jail cell can be difficult

[pelsar]

42. but thats the pipe dream...new leadership

this is where I am PM agree...the leaders of intifada I..the grass roots guys were the ones for israel to do business with...and in fact i believe would have succeeded.....but politics being as they were, required that arafat be the one to take over and he promptly got rid of those guys for his own cronies....

Bargouti?...who knows...does he have the power to replace those in power?....that would take quite a lot of political maneuvering and none of us have any idea if he really has the power, if its the right time, if he would or would not get burnt etc.....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

46. Barghouti has 2 important qualifications: #1) the objective of the liberation of his people

and #2) he is not corrupt.

God forbid he be let out of jail; the last thing Israel wants is a partner for peace. Why risk having to negotiate? it's so much better to deal with quislings like Abu Mazen.

[pelsar]

50. that may not be enough....

politics are politics..people dont give up power so easy. And if he would fail in his bid to take over the PA/Gaza, i have no doubt you would blame israel or the US..wouldnt you...

[ProgressiveMuslim]

54. Unlike your gov't and the USA, I have no interest in a "take over" but

rather want to see free and fair elections, whose results are honored.

I would prefer that our gov'ts not foment coup d' etat.

I would prefer that a multi-party gov't be the end result, not have the US-backed party go off in a hissy and refuse to play, and then receive funds and arms down the road in a attempt to overturn free and fair results.

Your language is very telling.

[pelsar]

65. what language....?

how many promising politicians all over the world couldnt live up to the promise? Israel is full of them.....they get in but cant "play the game" and end up being tossed out. Bargrouti may or may not have the ability to take control, there are a lot of special interests win the PA/Hamas that will try to stop him and they may succeed...after all look what arafat did....

btw nothing is stopping hamas from implementing democratic rule in gaza today.....except for hamas...... (somehow i get the impression that, democracy is not on their agenda...)

[ProgressiveMuslim]

45. What preceded Intifadah II, Pelsar? NOTHING.

Because that's what the Israeli gov't did to fulfill it's part of the agreement.

Exactly how many new settlements were there 7 years after Oslo was signed?

Intifadah II didn't arise in a vacuum.

[Malikshah]

47. Thanks for beginning to correct the egregious errors in basic history.

Intifada 1987-1990
Grassroots, yes. UNL led at first. PLO attempted to direct from afar. Then we have the rise of Islamic Jihad and Hamas-- based in the territories. As the months passed, the FATAH led PLO proved to be less than effective. The "Tunisians" were more interested in maintaining a voice/control than seeing something actually done on the ground. Frustrations began to set in.

OSLO comes about in 1993 after the impotent Madrid Talks. It's clear to those in the territories that the likes of Shamir and Rabin won't give up a grain of land without a fight.

OSLO was a unbalanced from the get go, but many in the territories dared to hope. They immediately saw the folly of that as settlements grew in number and FATAH--now in the Gaza--grew in corruption.

It would be nice if folks actually took the time to read up on the history...hell Charles Smith's work is readily available, as are countless statistics on military/civilian deaths in and out of the Green Line, casualty rates, arrest rates, home demolitions, crop uprootings, etc.

[pelsar]

51. some of us...

actually lived through it.......saw the way things changed with our own eyes from pre intifada I...to oslo to intfada II......

[ProgressiveMuslim]

53. Yes some of us did, didn't we? nt

[pelsar]

56. didnt you have any hope...during oslo?

i had a Palestinian from hebron call me up about working together, which really got me excited....I knew others who were working together...i started, like many israelis, to have these fantasias of working in kuwait, jordan etc (actually i do have a jordanian client).

and when the suicide bombers started.....it all so quickly fell apart

[ProgressiveMuslim]

61. For me it fell apart when Rabin was assassinated.

I had enough hope to sell everything we owned and move our family to Ramallah!

Here's the thing though. We learned from the failure of Oslo that the process won't succeed on the backs of 2 individual men: Arafat & Rabin. It needs to be a process that has buy in from all parties.

So why does Israel continually refuse to deal with that reality?

[Malikshah]

60. So you saw the increase in settlements across the WB? You saw the influx of

settlers. You saw the increase in detainments, the corruption of the PA, the maintenance of roadblocks/checkpoints, etc?

Yes, there was hope-- how could there not be after generations of "sumud" and beyond.

Was there any awareness that things were, in fact, not going well? That things were, in fact not turning out for the better for everyone?

Hindsight is indeed 20/20.

To ignore the reality that encompassed all as the statistics show, as the data shows is not helpful in moving forward toward a solution.

It was that "rose-colored" view to which I was referring in my post.

Glad that there was hope--but reality has a way of shaping destiny.

[pelsar]

62. two major events...killed the hope from an israeli pov....

there were infractions on both sides.....the idea was to "ignore" them and keep going forword with the hope that the "lower level of conflict and new connections/relationships would eventually turn itself into more "peace" than war".... Perhaps it was niave .....

________________

the two events that sealed it:

on a joint patrol, one of the PA soldiers killed the one of the israelis (which was the nightmare scenario).......that put an end to the joint patrols

an israeli soldier bled to death at Joseph's Tomb...the PA said they would send an ambulance...they never did (the israeli govt took them at their word)...... there was a "very angry Palestinian" crowd outside

[pelsar]

49. pre intifada II?

the Palestinians got a corrupt self govt, incredibly large bunch of competing security forces, own judicial and social system, control of their education....pull out of israeli forces over many areas and the start of self rule....and continued to attack israelis.....

much of the actions of the PA was also not fully in accord with Oslo.......
___

but so what? neither group for-filled every letter of the agreement, but there was at least movement in the right direction-acting like children and blowing the whole thing up because it wasnt 100% to the liking of every Palestinian was not a smart thing to do.....take a look around, whereas intifada I/oslo gave the Palestinians a sense of freedom and self rule, Intifada II has put them in "cages" and made matters far more worse.

even some of the al aska brigades fighters have said intifada II was a massive failure.......it appears to have been another gamble that failed........

[ProgressiveMuslim]

44. First of all, how about considering the fact that the occupation is the CHOICE of

your government? That it's easier to lay down for the military and the settlers than it is to do the right thing?

Do you realize how absurd what you're suggesting is? That's like saying, white slave owners were *forced* to continue the evil institution because the slaves were bad.

I'm well aware of the situation in Gaza. My own BIL was hauled in for interrogation twice last week. Guess what? If your (insert expletive) gov't hadn't interfered continuously, if they had allowed the democratic process to unfold without external manipulation, we'd be looking at a different situation.

Hopefully Carter can get the West to butt out, so that the internal divisions can be healed.

I have said here continuously, I am no fan of Hamas, but they earned the right to lead the gov't. Step aside and let them do and be judged either a failure and voted out, or successful, and voted back in.

[pelsar]

48. israel left gaza remember?...pulled out removed settlements...

started a process of self rule for the gazans...and no it wasnt their "dream version"...but it was a start, israel did "step aside"...and the stupid idiots from day one couldnt help themselves but start shooting missiles into israel.

even when israel didnt even react..they still shot missiles..and when that wasnt good enough, they would attack the border points where supplies were brought in.

this is soooo black and white.......its 100% Palestinian, governments are supposed to SOLVE problems not make more up for their citizens, whatever the situation. (would you excuse the US govt from solving a problem by saying its Frances fault?)

btw...leaving gaza was the right thing in principle, but given the result, it may have been the wrong thing in reality.

and i think your fooling yourself with hamas, they dont know how to actually govern, that requires real responsibility toward their own, and they do not seem to be showing that.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

52. Pelsar, once again we're up against the wall of your pretence

where we pretend that Israel's behavior after the withrdrawl has nothing to do with the chaos we now see.

Whatever.

[pelsar]

57. its called responsibility...

and its in every damn psych class 101....you look at your situation and you figure out how to make the best of it...and then you take responsibility for those actions.

I dont think you get it......the chaos of gaza is a Palestinians problem to solve. It doesnt make a difference who is involved, be it israel, syrian, jordan, al quida, hizballa, iran, saudi arabia, egypt, UN (and they are all involved)......the Palestianian have to figure out how to stop all those foreign influences upon them, and then do whats best for themselves....i'm afraid no one else can do it for them.

i guess thats the american in me..somethings you just have to do yourself, the sooner the better.

[Vegasaurus]

58. Hamas is already a failure

A government's job is to look after the welfare of its citizens, first and foremost.

Hamas puts weapons, suicide bombings, border raids, rockets, terrorism and violence above the welfare of its citizens.

They support bombing the very fuel trucks and electricity plants that supply these to their own citizens.

A rational government does not behave this way towards its citizens.

Hamas has not earned the right to rule. The lives of Palestinans have become infinitely more miserable under their rule.

[subsuelo]

64. Have you read the testimonies posted here?

[pelsar]

66. and those testimonies

are a credit to israel...a serious problem is being aired by the youngest members of the community, who are not afraid to speak out knowing that nothing will happen to them, no repercussions, no screaming that they are traitors.....

one can wonder where are the Palestinians that are questioning the morality of their own past actions......

[subsuelo]

70. oh ok.

Stories about shooting people at random, blowing up people's water tanks for fun, and shooting kids dead, etc etc - is somehow a "credit to Israel".

Right on, brother! Or, something like that, I guess.

[azurnoir]

38. What is happening now is in no small part do to the segrigation

of Palestinians from the rest of Israeli society

"The Arabs," as they were called then, manned our country's service sector for two decades after Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza in June 1967. But lacking civil or political rights, this underclass rebelled in December 1987. Termed the first intifada, the Palestinian uprising abruptly changed Israel's reality. Palestinian workers disappeared from sight, first the young ones, then the elders.
Born a few months after the outbreak of the first intifada, my daughter grew up in a very different environment than I did. She has never met a Palestinian from the West Bank or Gaza. Now 19, she has seen our Palestinian neighbors only on TV, and views them as aliens. She is much more familiar with American brand names and sitcom characters than with the people who live 15 miles east of her Tel Aviv home.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/11/26/two_state/index.html

That is what "allows" Israelis especially young Israelis to view Palestinians as subhuman, not that things were much better prior I will admit that Mr Benn's description of pre-Intifada Israeli-Palestinian relations reminded me of the pre-civil rights American south

[Scurrilous]

76. Border Police officer convicted of killing Hebron teen jailed for 6 years

<snip>

"The Jerusalem District Court on Monday sentenced a Border Police officer, convicted of killing a Palestinian teen six years ago, to six and a half years in prison.

The officer, Yanai Lalza, was also convicted of robbery, destroying evidence and obstructing justice.

Lalza and three other border policemen were posted in Hebron in 2002. One day the four abducted several Hebron residents, among them 17-year-old Amran Abu Hamadiya, and took them for a ride in their jeep. They abused the Arabs and beat them with truncheons and rifles. They hurled Abu Hamadiya out of the moving vehicle, causing his death.

Lalza was convicted in November 2006, as part of a plea bargain. He confessed, among other things, that he and one of the officers, Shahar Botbeka, had beaten Hamadiya, then opened the jeep's back doors before Lalza pushed Hamadiya out of the vehicle.

Despite his critical condition ¬ he had struck his head and Lalza shouted, "he's dead, he's dead" ¬ the soldiers continued driving and made no attempt to help him.

They later covered up the incident, coordinating their stories and falsifying documents."

more

[Scurrilous]

77. Policeman convicted of killing Arab escapes

Border Guard police officer convicted of killing Palestinian teenager in Hebron flees before going to prison

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3562796,00.html

<snip>

"The police are attempting to locate Yanai Lalza, a Border Guard police officer who killed a Palestinian boy in Hebrew. Lalza for supposed to begin serving his prison term last week but failed to report at the jail.

Despite the police's request, Lalza was not held in detention and was supposed to report to prison at the set date.

Lalza was sentenced to six and a half years in prison after being convicted of killing a 17-year-old Palestinian in December 2002. Lalza was convicted of manslaughter by the Jerusalem district court.

The incident in question, which involved Lalza as well as three other Border Guard officers, was videotaped. According to the indictment, the four police officers kidnapped the Palestinian teen and later threw him out of a speeding jeep.

The Palestinian teenager's head slammed against the ground and he was killed.

The judge in the case decided to impose a relatively lenient sentence on Lalza, citing his "difficult family circumstances."