Morrissey: celebrating apartheid in Tel Aviv?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

Open letter, PACBI, 15 April 2008

Morrissey,

Today, the Israeli newspaper Haaretz revealed your video message to the Israeli public, confirming your performance in Tel Aviv on 29 July 2008. You end your message with the words "God bless Israel, stay nice!" This message and your planned Israel gig are indicators of either a serious lack of understanding of what Israel is or a conscious bias towards Israel, despite its colonial and apartheid reality. Celebrating Israel, as you plan to do, at a time when it is persistently committing war crimes and other grave breaches of international humanitarian law in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT), particularly in Gaza, is an act of complicity in maintaining Israel's illegal occupation and regime of racial discrimination against the people of Palestine.

It is ironic that your persistent affection for outsiders and misfits has often driven you to write in their voices. Someone hated, rejected and violently attacked by a racist, nationalistic society has her point of view expressed in these lyrics, which you wrote:

We're old news
All's well
Say BBC scum
One child shot, but so what?

Laid my son
In a box, three feet long
And I still don't know why

A short walk home becomes a run
And I'm scared
In my own country
Singing in Tel Aviv despite the fact that more than 800 Palestinian children have been killed -- many in a willful manner -- by the Israeli occupation army and settlers in the past seven years alone would effectively tell us, in our faces: "One Palestinian child shot, but so what?"

This year, Israel celebrates the 60th anniversary of its establishment over the ruins of another country, Palestine. With the creation of this state 60 years ago, three quarters of a million Palestinians were dispossessed and uprooted from their homes and lands, condemned to a life of exile and destitution.

Israel at 60 is a state that is still denying Palestinian refugees their UN-sanctioned rights, simply because they are "non-Jews." It is still illegally occupying Palestinian and other Arab lands, in violation of numerous UN resolutions. In the OPT, Israel is continuing the construction of its colonies and massive wall in direct violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention as well as the advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice of July 2004. It is still persistently and grossly breaching international law and infringing fundamental human rights with impunity afforded to it through munificent US and European economic, diplomatic and political support. It is still treating its own Palestinian citizens with institutionalized discrimination.

In 2006, virtually all leading Palestinian artists and cultural figures have called for an international cultural boycott of Israel. <1> To date, many leading international cultural figures, including Ken Loach and John Berger, and some artists' unions, like the Irish Aosdana, have heeded the Palestinian Call and shunned Israel, just as they boycotted apartheid South Africa.

On 3 December 2007, you said: "I abhor racism and oppression or cruelty of any kind and will not let this pass without being absolutely clear and emphatic with regard to what my position is. Racism is beyond common sense and I believe it has no place in our society."

It is "absolutely clear" that your performance in Israel would betray a regrettable double standard, if not a categorical negation of those noble ideals.


http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9461.shtml

[Vegasaurus]

1. Maybe it is time to move on

as most other refugees do.

Continuing to wallow in self pity and anger has not gotten the Palestinians any farther in getting a state. In fact, their misery and terrorism and violence has gotten them much less of a state than they would have had sixty years ago, forty years ago, or even ten years ago.

At some point, they should look at the reality, and realize that as the years pass, the Israelis grow more prosperous and educated, and they become more miserable.

At what point will the Palestinians stop making misery, refugee status and violence their national persona, and work to develop something more positive?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

2. Just curious, do you think victims of clergy sexual abuse

should just shut up and move on too?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

3. Seriously, I'm trying to determine if you're one of those people

who is made so uncomfortable by unspeakingable injustice, that it's just easier for you to ignore it and blame the victims.

Or do you only feel that way when Israel is the perpetrator of evil?

[Violet_Crumble]

5. 'Shut up and move on!' 'Forget the past!'

No-one should demand that people forget the past, especially so when that demand is made only at one specific group of people. Edward Said talked of this *just shut up and get over it!* mindset in 'Culture and Resistance'.

'There was a Tikkun conference in New York (1988), organized by Michael Lerner. I, and my friend Ibrahim Abu-Lughod were on a panel with Michael Walzer. At one point, in a moment of exasperation, Walzer said, "All right, you're going to get your state, so I think it's important to stop thinking about the past. You go have your state, we'll have ours, and that's the end of it." At which point, a woman in the audience, who I'll never forget - her name was Hilda Silverstein - got up in a state of rage, railing at Walzer, saying, "How dare you tell a Palestinian that he should stop reminding us of the past, when you and I belong to a people that is always reminding the world of how much we suffered, and asking people never to forget? How dare you tell a Palestinian to forget?" When we remember and when we forget is something for ourselves to decide, and not for people to tell us."

[msmcghee]

8. I have never had a Jew tell me about how much they or their . .

. . recent relatives have suffered. I have never read a Jew writing about such a thing as a justification for special treatment. I have never heard a Jew say that they deserve their state of Israel because of what the Nazis did to the Jews - although I hear this false meme repeated endlessly by pro-Palestinains on the Internet.

I suspect this woman had picked up that meme and felt inspired to repeat it publicly because broadcasting her "anti-oppression" identity was important to her. It's a tribal thing. It's a way of waving a particular cultural flag - which is mostly what goes on at public meetings.

"Never forget" has always seemed to me to be an admonition to never forget that unspeakable inhumanity and cruelty exists in all of us not so far below the surface - and also in our societies - and not to become so smug that we start believing our "special cultural beliefs" would somehow prevent us from visiting such horrors on others given the right circumstances. I think it is also a particular message to younger Jews never to believe that it won't happen to them or to other weak minorities given the right circumstances. I believe that is what Jews mean when they say "never forget".

I think the speaker whom you disparage was simply offering some advice as to how Palestinians could achieve the best future for themselves. It suspect it was delivered as an opinion - not an insult. I think the woman you described had probably been drinking too much Hamas koolaid and figured, like too many Palestinians do, that the path to the brightest future lay in endlessly revisiting past injustices.

[Violet_Crumble]

9. That's what selective deafness does to people, I guess...

There's plenty of stuff on the internet where Jews talk about their past and their suffering. This is the first time I've ever encountered anyone who denies it. And no-one should begrudge any group of people for talking about past and present suffering. The only people I see do it to Jews are antisemitic types, and their comments are peppered with things about how the Jews whine and how they should just get over it. So why is the same language acceptable and even encouraged when it comes to other groups of people like the Palestinians? Of course the Palestinians haven't suffered a genocide, but since when has there been a scale of suffering that dicates whether a group of people are *whining* or not or have a right to talk about their suffering? Should the East Timorese just shut up and stop whining about the way they suffered under Indonesian occupation? Should the Kurds or the Tibetans just stop whining? Should the indigenous people here, as some of the Keith Windshuttle types suggest, just forget about what happened to them and get on with it? And as a woman, how should I react to misogynists who I've seen on some forums telling women to stop whining about how they were treated unti recently? I'll tell you how I'd react. I'd tell them to fuck off, because what Edward Said and the woman at the lecture said was 100% right. No-one should tell another group of people what they should and shouldn't remember. It's wrong on so many levels. Humans do look back and have memories and it's what we learn from, and when there's not much to look forward to, there's an even greater tendency to look back...

Just a correction here. I didn't disparage Michael Walzer. All I did was post from Edward Said's exact words and added no commentary. I don't know Michael Walzer from a bar of soap and have no opinion on him one way or the other, and have no reason to believe anything other than what Edward Said said, and that was the comment was made in a moment of exasperation. The woman who told him off was just pointing out what should be obvious to all but the most rabid 'supporters' of Israel, and that is that people can't be forced to stop reminding the world of the past. Like Michael Walzer, I know nothing of her, but for anyone coming to the conclusion that her making that obvious statement makes her a Hamas koolaid drinker, I'd be interested in knowing how they come to that strange conclusion and whether they know anything about her, or whether they think anyone who thinks that every group of people have a right to remember is a Hamas koolaid drinker?

[LeftishBrit]

13. I have OCCASIONALLY heard all these except the last

I have occasionally heard *non*-Jews say that Jews deserve Israel because of the Holocaust; but not Jews or Israelis. Because anyone who knows even a limited amount of the history of Israel knows that (1) plans for a state of Israel were underway before the Holocaust; (2) many Israeli Jews are not of Europaean descent and have no links to the Holocaust.

But I have certainly heard Jews talk about the suffering they and their people have endured - why shouldn't they? As regards 'special treatment' - I haven't heard anyone say they deserve special treatment in a material sense beyond obvious reparations; but I have heard people with family killed in the Holocaust imply that this gives them a special perspective on the world; and that others have no right to argue with it. I have heard very similar stuff from other people whose families or ethnic groups have been subject to tragedies. However, to be frank, I have heard much LESS of this 'we have a special perspective; don't contradict us' stuff from Jews or other ethnic minorities than from RW Americans, who bring up the fact that they helped the Europaeans in the war to argue that Europaeans should be forever grateful and support every military action by the Americans.

Jews are people. Like other people, they (we) sometimes whine and complain and bring up things that have been done to us. There is nothing wrong with that as such; it is just human nature. There is something wrong with ONLY whining and complaining and pitying yourself and never taking any action to improve the situation. However, in the case of Palestinians, they have taken quite a lot of action. It's just that a lot of it has been counterproductive - but again, it is sadly part of human nature, especially of groups and nations, to keep doing that which has already proved counterproductive.

[Vegasaurus]

16. Jews are very good whiners

(no slam; I come from a long line of whiners), but they are way more than whiners. They always take action to improve a situation.

You do not find Jews wallowing on aid in refugee camps for sixty years.

Spending a lifetime complaining about injustices, and unfairness and pitying bad situations doesn't improve things. Blowing people up and calling for the end of a sovereign nation doesn't improve things.

At some point, people need to decide if the current course of action is working or not. Clearly, in the case of the Palestinans, it isn't.

If they want to continue for another twenty years in this mode of thinking, it is their choice. However, they will continue to lose more and become increasingly miserable.

After awhile, and sixty years is a good long while, whining becomes more than counterproductive.

[Violet_Crumble]

19. This flawed argument was addressed in a very recent thread...

Seeing as how yr posting the same thing repeatedly in threads, I'll just repost what The Magistrate said to you when you said the Palestinian people choose misery in the folorn hope you may one day take note...

The People Do Not Really Choose, Ma'am

The 'hard men' determine these things in the interest of their struggle as they perceive it. The predominance of any particular faction is the result of successful application of a mixture of force, fraud, and other manipulations of various sorts.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x208940#208955

[Vegasaurus]

20. But there is choice, actually

the Palestinians chose Hamas, a violent terrorist organization. There was an election, which people say was free and fair, and that was their choice.

Since Hamas was elected, and has done nothing but increase the misery of its citizens, do we place the blame for the bad choice on the people?

After all, it was their free will to vote for Hamas, unless you are claiming they were coerced into this vote.

[Violet_Crumble]

22. No, the Palestinian people did NOT choose misery...

What they did was elect Hamas, which was running on a platform of tidying up the corruptness of Fatah. How on earth that can be translated into blaming the Palestinian population for Israeli and US imposed sanctions and blockades is beyond me. Seeing as how the population of the US re-elected the Bush administration, who are undoubtedly the world's most successful exporters of terror, does that mean I can use yr logic and personally blame you for any suffering the American people have gone through? After all, you guys voted for Bush...

[LeftishBrit]

25. 'You do not find Jews wallowing on aid in refugee camps for 60 years'

No, because the state of Israel did not *keep* their Jewish immigrants in refugee camps; they treated them as citizens. And this included huge influxes of immigrants, from a wide variety of countries and cultures, often not speaking Hebrew at the time of arrival. There is not always full equality between different groups of Israeli Jews, and certainly Middle Eastern Jews have sometimes experienced some discrimination; but overall, whatever you can say for and against Israel, they have been pretty good at integrating their various immigrants.

By contrast, the Arab states that have accepted Palestinian immigrants at all have NOT looked after them at all well, and have in many cases kept them in refugee camps for 60 years. It isn't that the Palestinians mostly WANT to live on aid in refugee camps; it's that this is what they've been offered. And, while they haven't been treated very well by Israel, they've also experienced plenty of 'apartheid' from their supposed 'friends' - who for some reason tend to get a lot less criticism on the issue than either Israel or the Palestinians themselves. (The Palestinians' own leadership has certainly not been great; but the refugee problem was not created by them.)

[msmcghee]

28. What I said was . .

I have never had a Jew tell me about how much they or their recent relatives have suffered. I have never read a Jew writing about such a thing as a justification for special treatment. I have never heard a Jew say that they deserve their state of Israel because of what the Nazis did to the Jews - although I hear this false meme repeated endlessly by pro-Palestinians on the Internet.

What I did not say was that . .

. . no Jew has ever said that to someone else besides me.

. . no Jew has ever written such a thing but I haven't seen it.

. . no Jew has ever stated that they deserve their state of Israel because of what the Nazis did to the Jews.


I'd be very surprised if some Jews have not written and said such things. I don't think I have ever seen anyone say that in this forum - but someone could have. My point was that it was not common enough to justify the meme that gets repeated frequently here.

Those who have suffered tragedies of any sort are affected by those tragedies and that affects their perspective - it even gives them a unique perspective on some things. That has nothing to do with claiming special privileges or access to "the truth" - although people of all sorts claim personal access to the truth all the time for any numbers of reasons. Such claims are implied and even stated outright in many posts to this and other forums on DU. It happens every time someone says, "I'm right and you're wrong". That has nothing to do with being Jewish. It has to do with being human and being designed by evolution to experience our own reality in person - and others' realities only vicariously and imperfectly.

[Vegasaurus]

17. If they were going to spend sixty years doing nothing but thinking about their abuse?

Yes, I do.

What kind of life is that?

on edit: to add to your second question:

No one is ignoring injustice. But the world is full of unfairness and injustice, and there comes a time when people should try to improve their lives, rather than live in bitterness and vengefulness forever.

[Violet_Crumble]

18. Since when have Palestinians done NOTHING but whine about their treatment?

Do you really think there's nothing else to the Palestinian people?

[Vegasaurus]

21. no, but wallowing for sixty years in refugee camps

and spending their lives seeking revenge, is not a very positive way to spend ones life.

There are, of course, Palestinians who do more than whine, but the predominant part of Palestinian culture seems to be a national identity defined by revenge on Israel for taking their land. It is really pretty hard to deny that.

[Violet_Crumble]

23. I didn't realise that refugee camps were full of wallowers and whiners....

And if you think Palestinians spend their lives seeking revenge, I'd like to know what you've read that's led you to what is a very superficial understanding of how Palestinians lead their lives....

I'll make the rather tentative assumption that you do have some sort of knowledge of refugee camps and use a refugee camp in Lebanon as an example. Could you tell me what you think the residents of one of those camps can do to spend their lives more positively? And more importantly could you explain why you believe Palestinians shouldn't remember what has been done to them in the past?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

24. Vegausaurus' ignorance knows no limits. nt

[Vegasaurus]

29. They can remember what's been "done to them"

but national identity is more than revenge and regret.

[azurnoir]

30. Which side of the conflict are you referring too? n/t

[azurnoir]

6. Here we go again

Other refugee's have moved on, think we've already been here too.
Gee lets see Tibetian refugee's are still around, Hmong refugee's too

At some point, they should look at the reality, and realize that as the years pass, the Israelis grow more prosperous and educated, and they become more miserable.

Not only do the Palestinians realize this, but most of the rest of the world too. The part that you want the world and the Palestinians to ignore is that in no small part that prosperity has come at the expense of Palestinians, by taking and continuing to take land and by preventing the Palestinians from devloping their own natural resources.

[azurnoir]

7. Dupe delete n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

4. If only Palestinians were furry and had big soulful eyes!

Then Moz wouldn't even need to be asked to boycott Israel - he'd be there at the forefront doing it off his own bat. Furry critters are clearly much more important to him than human beings, coz he boycotted playing in Canada because of the baby seals...

From the article: On 3 December 2007, you said: "I abhor racism and oppression or cruelty of any kind and will not let this pass without being absolutely clear and emphatic with regard to what my position is. Racism is beyond common sense and I believe it has no place in our society."

That was actually his response to accusations of racism after an NME article accused him of racism and quoted him as saying: "Britain's a terribly negative place. And it hammers people down and it pulls you back and it prevents you. Also, with the issue of immigration, it's very difficult because although I don't have anything against people from other countries, the higher the influx into England the more the British identity disappears." They also used titles of songs (Asian Rut) and lyrics from The Smiths and his solo stuff to accuse him of racism, eg he said in the early days of the Smiths that he thought reggae was vile, 'Panic' by the Smiths has the line 'Hang the DJ', therefore he was being racist. Lame accusations, and what makes it easy for twits like NME is the ambiguity of most of his lyrics. Mind you, when it comes to animal rights there's nothing ambiguous there..

Heifer whines could be human cries
Closer comes the screaming knife
This beautiful creature must die
This beautiful creature must die
A death for no reason
And death for no reason is murder

And the flesh you so fancifully fry
Is not succulent, tasty or kind
Its death for no reason
And death for no reason is murder

And the calf that you carve with a smile
Is murder
And the turkey you festively slice
Is murder
Do you know how animals die ?

Kitchen aromas arent very homely
Its not comforting, cheery or kind
Its sizzling blood and the unholy stench
Of murder

Its not natural, normal or kind
The flesh you so fancifully fry
The meat in your mouth
As you savour the flavour
Of murder

No, no, no, its murder
No, no, no, its murder
Oh ... and who hears when animals cry ?

(Meat Is Murder - The Smiths)

[Violet_Crumble]

10. C'mon people! Let's talk about Moz!

I'm just wondering what people who rail against violent Palestinian resistance have to say about a man who supports violence when it comes to animal rights?

Morrissey supports animal rights violence

The former frontman of the 1980s group the Smiths said he believed terror tactics were justified against those who conducted animal experiments because they had brought it on themselves.

Morrissey also singled out proudly carnivorous television chefs Jamie Oliver and Clarissa Dickson Wright as enemies of the animal rights movement.

His comments, however, prompted criticism from organisations attacked by animal activists, and politicians who warned that any such potential incitement should be investigated by the police.

The singer, whose old band is a favourite of David Cameron, the Tory leader, made his remarks in an interview with an online fanzine called True to You. He said: “I support the efforts of the Animal Rights Militia (ARM) in England and I understand why fur farmers and so-called laboratory scientists are repaid with violence — it is because they deal in violence themselves and it’s the only language they understand — the same principles that apply to war.”

Morrissey said he approved of such tactics because “you reach a point where you cannot reason with people” who carry out animal experiments. “They (the ARM) are usually very intelligent people who are forced to act because the law is shameful or amoral.”

He added: “With people in the world such as Jamie Oliver and Clarissa Dickson Wright there isn’t much hope for animals.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article788698.ece

As much as I love The Smiths, Moz is such a wanker....

[Lithos]

11. Morrissey is just a person with a microphone

You can buy his product or you can ignore it. I don't think he is a self aware as Bowie for instance which makes some of what he does seem clunky. Also personally I thought him a bit flakey, but I figure it's because like most celebrities, he lives in his own world.

L-

[Violet_Crumble]

14. Plus he's well past his use-by date...

I stopped buying his stuff after 'Your Arsenal', but that's nothing to do with his politics and everything to do with me thinking him minus the Smiths was a bit of a dissappointment...

Yeah, flakey's not an understatement when it comes to Morrissey. Sometimes it's endearing, but more often than not it just makes him look like an idiot...

[LeftishBrit]

12. Several points:

(1) Do you think that Morrissey should not perform in *any* country that practices bad policies? Do you think he shouldn't perform at home because of Iraq?

(2) 'the ruins of another country, Palestine'

This is very misleading. There was never an independent state of Palestine. Though there should be. There was a British colony, which even then included both Jewish and Arab areas (Tel Aviv was a mainly Jewish city long before 1948).

And this makes the whole message dubious. It might be one thing to suggest that a country be boycotted until it stops practicing a bad policy (in this case, the occupation); but another to siggest that it should be boycotted because its very creation and existence is a crime. Does the author seriously think that Israel will disband itself (and certainly not in response to a boycott by such as Morrissey!)

(3) Who takes Morrissey seriously on political matters anyway? He is a good musician/songwriter; but can be very idiotic at times; e.g. when he condoned violence by animal rights extremists (especially as ALL employees of my university are explicitly targeted by such groups, this didn't go down too well with me.)

[Violet_Crumble]

15. Addressing those points...

(1) Do you think that Morrissey should not perform in *any* country that practices bad policies? Do you think he shouldn't perform at home because of Iraq?

Sorry to answer a question with a question, but would you have asked the same sort of question of any artist who boycotted Sun City? If not, why not? After all, there were plenty other countries practicing bad policies...

For anyone who never heard 'Sun City', here's the video with a big warning that it'll bring on huge 1980's flashbacks. The song was virtually boycotted by many US radio stations because of its criticism of Ronald Reagan. And Australia's current Minister of the Environment makes a cameo in it :)

'Sun City' - Artists United Against Apartheid

(2) 'the ruins of another country, Palestine'

This is very misleading. There was never an independent state of Palestine. Though there should be. There was a British colony, which even then included both Jewish and Arab areas (Tel Aviv was a mainly Jewish city long before 1948).

And this makes the whole message dubious. It might be one thing to suggest that a country be boycotted until it stops practicing a bad policy (in this case, the occupation); but another to siggest that it should be boycotted because its very creation and existence is a crime. Does the author seriously think that Israel will disband itself (and certainly not in response to a boycott by such as Morrissey!)

It does not make the whole message dubious. I've seen many references to Palestine during the British Mandate as both Israel and Palestine, and while it's true that no state existed, that does not make the message of what's happening in the Occupied Territories now dubious, nor does it translate into wanting Israel to disband. The article was very clear about why artists should boycott Israel:

'Israel at 60 is a state that is still denying Palestinian refugees their UN-sanctioned rights, simply because they are "non-Jews." It is still illegally occupying Palestinian and other Arab lands, in violation of numerous UN resolutions. In the OPT, Israel is continuing the construction of its colonies and massive wall in direct violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention as well as the advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice of July 2004. It is still persistently and grossly breaching international law and infringing fundamental human rights with impunity afforded to it through munificent US and European economic, diplomatic and political support. It is still treating its own Palestinian citizens with institutionalized discrimination.'

How is that wanting Israel to disband?

(3) Who takes Morrissey seriously on political matters anyway? He is a good musician/songwriter; but can be very idiotic at times; e.g. when he condoned violence by animal rights extremists (especially as ALL employees of my university are explicitly targeted by such groups, this didn't go down too well with me.)

The British media seem to take him seriously, and politicians and lawmakers took him very seriously when he publicly condoned violence when it came to animal rights. I know I took him very seriously over the whole Eurovision thing (can I cheat and call that political?). But in general it's very hard to take someone seriously who on one hand advocates violence in the name of animal rights while on the other refusing for so long to stop wearing his leather shoes on the grounds that they were practical...

When it comes to musical boycotts of Israel, I'm not sure that many big acts play in Israel anyway, so it wouldn't have the same sort of impact that the Sun City boycott had. Then again, I read that the Red Hot Chili Peppers were on the bill for the same festival that Morrissey's playing in Tel Aviv (they could have changed the name of the festival from Heatwave to the Old Washed-up Has-Beens Festival), but they've cancelled citing 'security concerns'...

[LeftishBrit]

26. Replies

(1) 'Do you think that Morrissey should not perform in *any* country that practices bad policies? Do you think he shouldn't perform at home because of Iraq?

Sorry to answer a question with a question, but would you have asked the same sort of question of any artist who boycotted Sun City? If not, why not? After all, there were plenty other countries practicing bad policies...'

I was not in fact asking it of Morrissey - who so far as I know isn't boycotting anywhere; my response was to the *expectation* that he should boycott Israel in particular. Certainly people can make the suggestion - in the scheme of Middle Eastern politics it is better to suggest that Morrissey boycott somewhere than to drop a bomb. I just thought there was a certain selectiveness in it, that's all.

And whether I would ask such a question of any boycotter of anywhere might depend to some extent on whether *their own country* was practicing similar bad policies.


(2)

'The article was very clear about why artists should boycott Israel:

'Israel at 60 is a state that is still denying Palestinian refugees their UN-sanctioned rights, simply because they are "non-Jews." It is still illegally occupying Palestinian and other Arab lands, in violation of numerous UN resolutions. In the OPT, Israel is continuing the construction of its colonies and massive wall in direct violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention as well as the advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice of July 2004. It is still persistently and grossly breaching international law and infringing fundamental human rights with impunity afforded to it through munificent US and European economic, diplomatic and political support. It is still treating its own Palestinian citizens with institutionalized discrimination.'

How is that wanting Israel to disband?'


That particular paragraph doesn't, whether one agrees with it or not: it's an attack on current policies. But preceding it with the statement that 'Israel was built on the ruins of Palestine' does muddy the waters.


(3)

'But in general it's very hard to take someone seriously who on one hand advocates violence in the name of animal rights while on the other refusing for so long to stop wearing his leather shoes on the grounds that they were practical...'

Can't argue with you there!!!

[azurnoir]

27. The Chili Peppers might be there because

one of their original members who is now deceased was Israeli. "Scar Tissue" was in part about him.