Clinging to dream of Palestine village

[subsuelo]

According to our Israeli road atlas, Route 899 runs from the sea along the Lebanese border to the town of Sasa, and along the way passes an "archaeological ruin" called Iqrit.

The three-dot symbol on the map is one of hundreds of such locations throughout this historically rich land - but this is no biblical or Roman-era relic.

Iqrit was an Arab Christian village vacated during the 1948-49 war, one of hundreds of villages in the former Palestine whose populations either went into exile or, as in the Iqritis' case, into internal displacement in the new Israeli state.

While traces of many of these deserted villages have all but disappeared, the sparsely wooded hilltop of Iqrit - against all odds - continues to play host to its former inhabitants and their children and grandchildren.

One old man, 80-year-old Asad Mbada Daoud, says he remembers clearly the day Israeli troops captured Iqrit, in October 1948.

Initially, it seemed the 450 inhabitants might remain in their homes after surrendering to the troops and pledging to live in peace under Israeli rule.

After a week, however, they were evacuated by force to al-Rama, about 12 miles (20km) south, while the army "cleaned" the border area of Arab fighters.

BBC - read more

[subsuelo]

1. Israel stole the land from these people.

No amount of spin or lies or deceptions will ever change that fact.

Talk abounds around here about the 'root problem' or what the conflict is 'really about'. The root of this whole thing comes down to land being stolen from the native population. It is about that population being forced out of their homes into squalid ghettos and refugee camps, where they and their descendants still live today. It will always boil down to that every time. Ignoring it won't make it go away. Pretending it didn't happen won't make it go away.

I don't believe it excuses terrorist crimes, either, so for the record I say that because I can take a pretty reasonable guess that someone somewhere is itching to hit reply and bang out a comment about how awful Hamas is, and how they don't want peace and how they bomb the Israelis too. Not one word I write here has ever meant to justify those actions.

But when you look at the big picture, this is what the whole conflict comes down to. The Palestinian people were forced out of their homes and into ghettos, by Israel. That's what this is all about. For some this is just spelling out the obvious. But there are plenty that IMO need a little background and education on the matter.

Start by finding out about Al Nakba, 1948. The purging of the Palestinian people. That is the history. That is the reality.

[Shaktimaan]

2. This is a gross oversimplification.

But when you look at the big picture, this is what the whole conflict comes down to. The Palestinian people were forced out of their homes and into ghettos, by Israel. That's what this is all about.

And this is just untrue. The conflict predates the nakba by decades. And Israel had absolutely nothing to do with forcing anyone into ghettos. And to be brutally honest about it, with few exceptions Israel did not "force" the Palestinians out of their homes at all. Half of the Palestinian people still reside within Palestine.

If you ask me the far greater crime than the nakba was the perpetuation of the Palestinian people as refugees for the past 60 years. But that has nothing to do with Israel, so we won't be talking about it, will we? Unless it is to somehow try and blame Israel for it, like the above attempt with the refugee camps and ghettos. Amazing. Just about every country in that area BUT Israel forced Palestinians into ghettos, even passing laws and international agreements designed to keep them disenfranchised. Yet when you summarize the history, somehow it is Israel (JUST Israel too) who forced the Palestinians into squalid camps.

But there are plenty that IMO need a little background and education on the matter.

Mind if I ask you something? What would you say is your favorite book on this subject, out of those you've read that you'd consider unbiased?

[subsuelo]

3. "Israel had absolutely nothing to do with forcing anyone into ghettos"

You cannot expect to be taken seriously posting remarks like that. It's like saying Hamas has nothing to do with rocket attacks. Or, like saying that European conquerors had nothing to do with taking the land from the native Americans. It's just not true.

My 'favorite' book on the subject? Currently I would say Ali Abunimah's 'One Country'.

Show me one 'unbiased' book on the subject -- or does 'biased' mean that the Palestinian point of view is given too much consideration?

[hack89]

4. So why weren't the Palestinians given the option

of becoming citizens of Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan or Syria? If not citizenship, why can't they at least live and work in the local economy and have the opportunity for a better life until the issue of statehood is resolved? None of the camps are controlled by Israel so why do they have to live in squalor?

[azurnoir]

5. Why shouldn't America

responsible for impoverished Mexicans? That makes as much sense as what your asking concerning Lebanon, Syria, or Egypt. Or is another "well they're all Arabs" type comment?

[hack89]

6. We should be - I support a guest worker program

that allows impoverished Mexicans the ability to work legally in America to provide a decent living for their families.

I think that it is a matter of fundamental decency - decency that I am certain that Arabs are capable of.

[subsuelo]

8. So it is just a "well they're all Arabs" type argument n/t

[hack89]

10. What's wrong with a guest worker program? nt

[azurnoir]

23. Guest worker program

Means exploitation of cheap labor, Saudi Arabia and most of the Gulf states already do that. Not to mention that Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, and Syria all have developmental and economic problems of their own, you are asking third world countries to absorb and support refugee's from a first or possibly second world country, not to mention that Syria has in past 5 years absorbed 1.5 million refugees from Iraq.

The map below blue is first world, red is second world, and green is third world, this map has Israel as a first world country

[Shaktimaan]

29. ????

you are asking third world countries to absorb and support refugee's from a first or possibly second world country

Who, the Palestinians? They are not refugees from a first world state, they never lived in Israel. When they left, Israel was still Palestine; and it was most definitely not first or second world then.

Or is your argument that since Israel is wealthier than Syria they should bear the responsibility of reabsorbing them?

That idea kind of ignores the meat of the issues of Palestinian right of return, (such as the whole I/P conflict thing), in favor of making a relatively unimportant argument. If asking Syria to absorb some Palestinian guest workers is unfair because of the whole first world/third world thing, then it is one of the least unfair things on the massive list of unfair things that have happened over the course of this long conflict.

Besides, Syria should not just allow guest workers, it should offer citizenship for any Palestinians who are currently living there, and a large number others who might want to immigrate. Consider it a karmic adjustment for all the Jews they threw out and all the innocent civilians they murdered at Hama and all of the other hideous stuff they've done without any just cause.

[azurnoir]

30. When the Palestinians left there was no Israel

then you are saying that Zionists drove them out of Palestine (their own country) before the "birth" of Israel, that is a new take.

But especially given your "facts" why should any other Arab country give Palestinians citizenship, in fact your claim only strengthens the "right of return" seeing as how they were truly driven out their own country (according to you) before it had the name Israel.

"Besides, Syria should not just allow guest workers, it should offer citizenship for any Palestinians who are currently living there, and a large number others who might want to immigrate. Consider it a karmic adjustment for all the Jews they threw out and all the innocent civilians they murdered at Hama and all of the other hideous stuff they've done without any just cause."

The "karmic adjustment" was that any Jews thrown out of Syria and other Arab countries were welcomed in was it Israel then? because the new state had lots of recently "vacated" space to fill and had to do so quickly. I always find it curious that it has become such an issue now 60 years after the fact, and at a time when Israel is being asked to "give up" something that was not Israel's in the first place, do you really think the world has such a short memory as to fall for this ploy? Except for possibly some self serving Congress critters angling for PAC monies.

[Shaktimaan]

31. Ooookay. Twist anyone's words much?

Let's see here... where to start?

then you are saying that Zionists drove them out of Palestine (their own country) before the "birth" of Israel, that is a new take.

No, I did not say that at all. I said that the Palestinians left before the birth of Israel. Some were driven out. Most of them left of their own accord. Some because they heard rumors of massacres and were afraid, some merely because they were civilians in a war zone, it is not uncommon for people under those circumstances to flee. Either way, the refugees left Palestine, (which was technically not yet a country, nor was it any more "theirs" than it was the Zionists'.)

But especially given your "facts" why should any other Arab country give Palestinians citizenship, in fact your claim only strengthens the "right of return" seeing as how they were truly driven out their own country (according to you) before it had the name Israel.

There is no such thing as a "right of return." And they were not driven out of their own country. No country existed there. You could say that they were forcibly kept from returning to their homeland or something like that. But there was no country called Palestine, these people did not have citizenship to any state.

The Arab states should offer them citizenship because the UN's procedure for dealing with refugees is to first try and have them return to their original homes but if that is not possible, as in this case, then their policy is to resettle them in either their host nations or a 3rd party nation. To keep them stateless in squalid refugee camps in their host nations is egregious.

I always find it curious that it has become such an issue now 60 years after the fact, and at a time when Israel is being asked to "give up" something that was not Israel's in the first place, do you really think the world has such a short memory as to fall for this ploy?

What is Israel being asked to "give up?" I don't understand. "Was not theirs in the first place?" Huh? What is it that wasn't theirs?

Anyway, it is not a ploy, nor is it a recent observation. It has always been part of this issue. Maybe you just never heard about it before. Many new states experienced population transfers along ethnic or religious lines during their creation. This is no different except in all those other cases the refugees were absorbed and became productive members of society. Just because the Arab states have been keeping the Palestinians in squalid camps for 60 years doesn't mean that a population transfer did not already take place. It does not mean that Israel is responsible for their situation or that fixing it should fall to them.

Let me state this simply so that you can grasp it. Israel is a sovereign state. Palestinian refugees are not, nor were they ever citizens of Israel. Israel is under no obligation whatsoever to grant these refugees or their families citizenship. Now you may think this is unethical or unfair. I disagree. Regardless, Palestinian refugees have no "right" to demand naturalization. Case closed.

[azurnoir]

35. Then why is there no "outcry"

over Thailand not offering Hmong citizenship? They have been refugees for 33 tears, has India offered Tibetans citizenship?
So what you are really saying is why don't the Palestinians just go somewhere else?

[subsuelo]

7. just listen to yourself

Israel kicked the native people out of their homes - then you blame the victims for not running off to Syria or Egypt?

Come on.

[hack89]

9. I blame Syria and Egypt

for lacking the basic human decency to let them out of their prisons to live normal human lives until the issue is resolved.

Do you think that the keeping the Palestinians in their squalor is a deliberate tactic to ensure western support for the Palestinians? What motivation to you subscribe to the Arab governments? Is truly just Israels problem and the Arabs have no moral obligations to help the Palestinians?

[bemildred]

11. Israel doesn't seem to have any problem with keeping the Palestinians in Squalor.

Why do you think the Arab neighbors should be better? Why should not Israel let them get on with normal human lives until the issue is resolved? Let Israel take the lead here, and no doubt the Arab neighbors would benefit from that good example.

[hack89]

12. Why can't they be better then Israel?

going back to the Mexican example, are you saying that because the Mexican government is unwilling to help their own citizens, America cannot implement a guest worker program or fair immigration laws to provide poor Mexicans a better life?

[bemildred]

13. If you want to know what I'm "saying", read post #11, where I said it.

The question is not what this or that government can do, the question is what they are willing to do, and whether they are willing to step up and do what they think others ought to do, and why or why not that is so.

How did this become about Mexicans anyway? Do you think Mexicans are sort of like Palestinians somehow? Or the US sort of relates to Mexicans like Israel relates to Palestinians?

[hack89]

14. There is plenty of blame on both sides

The Mexicans was from my point about a guest worker program. Why can't Palestinians have the right to work in other Arab countries? Regardless of what Israel can or will do, what is stopping Syria, Jordan, or Egypt? As for Israel, they had no problems with Palestinians working in Israel prior to the first Intifada, so there is no reason to believe that if Hamas and the PA demonstrate their willingness to stop terrorism, Israel would consider re-instituting that policy.

[bemildred]

15. There are Palestinians living in Syria, Jordan, and Egypt you know.

And other places. Creating Israel and moving all those people somewhere else wasn't what they wanted to do you know, they were opposed to the idea. Now they are supposed to make it work when Israel won't step up?

[hack89]

16. But you know they will never return to pre-48 land

Israel will compensate them and then they will have to live somewhere. They might be opposed but they will have no choice.

In the meantime, why can't they work in Arab countries? Without the camps, will the entire movement fall apart?

[bemildred]

17. I don't know anything of the kind.

Israel hasn't shown the slightest inclination to compensate them either. But my point is that the Arab states, and others, ARE doing something to help, and it's a bit swineish and ungrateful to be complaining about it when all the evidence suggests that Israel is doing it's level best to make the problem worse.

[notfullofit]

18. On the other hand

if Hamas would just quit firing rockets into Israel.
I sure as hell would not invite my neighbor to dinner if he was trying to kill me.

[bemildred]

19. So you favor the plan for a hudna? nt

[notfullofit]

25. What's a hudna?

Sorry, it's double dutch to me.

[bemildred]

26. Thanks, that's clarifies matters. nt

[hack89]

21. The Arabs doing nothing

beyond exploiting the Palestinians.

[bemildred]

22. Yes, yes, bad Arabs, not being obedient.

It's all their fault, really, isn't it?

[Shaktimaan]

32. Well, yes, in fact it is. Very much so. np

[bemildred]

33. It's not often someone has the chutzpah to portray Israel as a great benefactor of the Arabs.

It's sort of like suggesting that the USA has been a great benefactor to the American Indians. It's not an argument that one hears a lot these days.

It is not correct that the various other Arab nations are responsible for cleaning up the mess. It is not correct that the Lebanese and Syrians and Egyptians and Jordanians are all alike and ought to look after each other and take each other in so that Israel can shirk its responsibilities for the situation. They are not the same, they are different peoples with different histories, and they have plenty of trouble hanging together as countries as it is.

How much chutzpah does it take to berate other countries for not taking in the people that you expelled and refuse to take back yourself? If it's such a good deal, why not try it yourself.

[Shaktimaan]

27. Why are you posting all this stuff that you know isn't really accurate?

It's like you decided to toss your usual candor out the window this thread. Please excuse the length here but I had to respond to your assertions with examples... frankly I am surprised to hear this kind of crazy rhetoric from you.

Israel hasn't shown the slightest inclination to compensate them either.
That's just untrue. Decades ago Israel actually already offered compensation to Arab landowners who lost their property in exchange for them relinquishing any future claim to that land. More recently, Israeli committees organized to assess this issue have made restitution a key part of any reconciliation plan. It is an accepted fact within Israel that there will be some kind of monetary compensation for refugees; whether it takes the form of individual checks or a lump sum granted to the future Palestinian government is the kind of detail being debated now. Not whether restitution will be offered or not.

But my point is that the Arab states, and others, ARE doing something to help, and it's a bit swineish and ungrateful to be complaining about it
The Arab states have historically been the worst to the Palestinians out of everybody in terms of oppressing them, killing their civilians and disenfranchising them. In 1957, the Refugee Conference passed a resolution stating that "Any discussion aimed at a solution of the Palestine problem which will not be based on ensuring the refugees' right to annihilate Israel will be regarded as a desecration of the Arab people and an act of treason." The Arab League issued instructions barring the Arab states from granting citizenship to Palestinian Arab refugees (or their descendants.) The Arab states are not trying to help, they are trying to keep Palestinian refugees in a state of permanent disenfranchisement.

Look at the laws restricting Palestinians in Lebanon for instance; they are barbaric. When Egypt occupied Gaza the Palestinians were prevented from entering Egypt even for work, let alone to live. They kept them in both economic and everyday squalor while using Gaza as a base for feyadeen attacks so that the Palestinians, not Egypt, would absorb the response. Jordan responded to the Black September secessionist movement by squashing it militarily, killing 5,000 Palestinians in ten days before expelling the PLO. In 1988 Jordan severed ties with the West Bank, (illegally) stripping all Palestinians living there of their Jordanian citizenship, leaving them stateless. In 1991 Kuwait and other Gulf states forcibly expelled over 400,000 Palestinians for political reasons. Hundreds of Palestinian refugees from Iraq are trapped in the desert on Syria's border, who is refusing them entry.

all the evidence suggests that Israel is doing it's level best to make the problem worse.
Actually Israel has done more towards helping the Palestinians achieve autonomous statehood than any Arab state ever has. The Palestinians achieved the formation of the PA, elections, partial autonomy and foreign aid and investment with Israel's help. Gaza is under the autonomy of Palestinians for the first time in history, ending hundreds of years of foreign occupation. It is telling that all this happened despite Israel and Palestine being at (low grade) war for decades. They have achieved more under the authority of their gravest enemies than they ever had, or ever would relying on their Arab "allies."

[bemildred]

28. Ha ha. Very funny. nt

[Vegasaurus]

36. I wonder why none of the "pro-Palestinian"

(or anti-Israel) posters have any comment on this.

The Arabs' role in the perpetual victimhood and refugee status of the Palestinians needs to be addressed.

Why does no one get up in arms about the treatment of Palestinians by their Arab brothers, from being denied entry to Egypt, denied citizenship in Jordan, kept in camps without work in Lebanon?

The Arab treatment of Palestinians is in some ways worse than Israel's, and they are responsible for more deaths as well.

No other refugee group in modern history has lived in squalid camps on global aid for sixty years, waiting to return to a land that will never be theirs again.

[Shaktimaan]

20. You have it wrong here.

Saying that Israel had nothing to do with forcing anyone into ghettos is like saying that the countries who refused to accept Jewish refugees had nothing to do with the Holocaust. Yes, Israel could have allowed the Palestinians to move back to Israel after the War of Independence was over, thus avoiding the refugee camp situation. But they did not directly have anything to do with forcing the refugees into ghettos. How could they have? None of these ghettos were in Israel.

According to the UN, if refugees aren't able to return to their country of origin for some reason then they are supposed to be re-settled someplace else, preferably in their host country if possible. Palestinians alone were subject to a decree by the Arab League preventing any Arab state from giving them citizenship or allowing them permanent residency. There is a policy of keeping Palestinians in a transient state, to keep the refugee problem purposefully unsolved in order to use it as leverage against Israel.

When Israel took over Gaza in '67 they attempted to improve the living standard in refugee camps by building real housing and plumbing only to be attacked by the UNRWA for their efforts. Israel was accused of building non-temporary housing to defuse the refugee crisis. The idea being that the Palestinians should be kept miserable so that they'll always dream of returning to Israel instead of making a comfortable, productive life where they are, which would defuse the crisis but also the right of return movement. The housing went unused.

Israel didn't allow the refugees to return. It also did not force them into refugee camps. The Arab states did that for their own benefit. No other groups have been living in camps for 60 years, one way or another their crisises were resolved. The Jewish refugees of Arab states were never put into camps, for instance. Why are the Palestinians different?

There are plenty of unbiased books. Right now my favorite one is Thomas Friedman's, From Beirut to Jerusalem. Great overview and a compelling read.
So, have you read any books that you'd consider unbiased on this subject at all? If not, do you also have a favorite book that favors the Israeli perspective?

[Vegasaurus]

24. As long as the Palestinians are kept in perpetual refugee status

they can be perpetually used as the scapegoats of the Arab world.

The Arab countries are absolutely at fault for not allowing the Palestinians citizenship, and instead kicking them out (like Iraq) of their countries.

Then they cry a river about the plight of the Palestinians, but do nothing to alleviate them.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

34. Far greater crime? BULL SHIT.

And my fave book was The Birth of Israel by Simha Flapan.

What's yours?