PA negotiators furious over Israeli proposal

[Scurrilous]

Worrying strife breaks out between top Palestinian negotiator Ahmed Qureia and Israeli counterpart after latter presents proposal of regional division in which Israel maintains claim to large settlement blocs, Jordan River Valley and Jerusalem

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3537537,00.html

<snip>

"Those in Washington pushing for an Israeli-Palestinian deal by the end of President Bush's term may have to scale down their expectation as the gaps between the two sides only seem to be growing larger.

A new bout of discord arose after a blowout between the Palestinian Authority's head negotiator, Ahmed Qureia, and Foreign Affairs Minister Tzipi Livni. Qureia angrily rejected a proposed map presented by Livni in which any future agreement would see Israel retaining control of the larger settlement blocs in the West Bank as well as the Jordan River Valley and Jerusalem.

Qureia grabbed the map spread out on the table and pushed it away with both hands.

The divide over the border fall-out was only further exacerbated after Qureia vehemently rebuffed comments made by Defense Minister Ehud Barak on Tuesday, in which he demanded a special security arrangement be made for a mountain ridge in Palestinian territory east of Ben Gurion Airport.

The recent turbulence indicates a permanent deal or even an agreement on certain basic principles may be even farther from reach."

[skooooo]

1. At first I read PA = Pennsylvania.

:rofl:

[DrDan]

2. so does junior have 1 positive effort he can take credit for in the past 8 years

certainly a lot of negatives, but is there 1 thing he can actually be proud of?

[Scurrilous]

4. $3.65 a gallon for regular...

...I think he's mighty proud of that.

[subsuelo]

3. Just as the planners of Israel's conquest over native Palestinian land want it

[Crunchy Frog]

5. I'm thinking maybe it's time to give up the focus on creating a Palestinian state.

It's becoming very clear that Israel is never going to allow a viable one to take shape. Maybe it's time to start focusing on equality of rights and citizenship within a single state.

[sabbat hunter]

6. a single state

would be the end of israel as we know it.

[Phx_Dem]

7. I think that's the point. nt

[aranthus]

10. That's always been the point. nt

[Vegasaurus]

11. Of course that's the point

The Israel hateres have started their constant comparisons to Nazis, and are now proposing that there should be a single state (ie, no Israel or Jews, because that is what a single state would be).

I hope those people realize that they sound no better than David Duke, Hamas, Nazrallah or any other local loonie tune nutter, when making such crazy proclamations.

And if anyone thinks Israel will go down without a gigantic war, they are dead wrong.

[Crunchy Frog]

13. It's the settlers and their allies who are working towards a single state.

I'm just pointing out the bleeding obvious. And I've never compared anyone in the Israeli government to Nazis, unlike your friends in the settler community who rather regularly compare members of their own government and military to Nazis.

[subsuelo]

35. No it's not the point at all

The idea that the only reasoning behind a single state solution is this "Israel hate" is an absolutely ridiculous assertion. There is plenty of valid justification for single state that has nothing whatsoever to do with hating Israel.

[Crunchy Frog]

8. Well,

maybe you should take your concerns up with the government of Israel and the settlers. They're the ones who seem absolutely determined to prevent a viable Palestinian state from coming into existence.

At any rate, an "Israel as we know it" that persists in maintaining a large segment of its population without rights and without citizenship maybe should cease to exist. Perhaps what would come to exist in its place would be far superior.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Crunchy Frog]

12. I never said that I hope any country ceases to exist.

I hope that a system in which a large segment of the population is denied citizenship and equal rights ceases to exist. That's "Israel as we know it", not Israel as a state or as a country. I stand by that and think it's a very progressive position to take.

Your wanting to maintain a system in which large numbers of people are denied basic rights seems rather reminiscent of the KKK.

[Phx_Dem]

14. The Palestinians don't live in Israel

So your stmt "a system in which a large segment of the population is denied citizenship and equal rights ceases to exist." is disingenuous to say the least.

[Crunchy Frog]

15. Palestinians live alongside Israelis

in areas where Israel has sovereignty, and where Israelis have rights and citizenship and Palestinians have neither. I consider your statement to be the disingenuous one.

[Phx_Dem]

16. The Palestinians in the WB

have a lot more rights that Palestinians in Lebanon, Syria and Egypt.

[Crunchy Frog]

17. Immaterial to this discussion.

Blacks in the deep south under segregation had more rights than blacks in Africa did at the time. A pointless and meaningless comparison.

[Phx_Dem]

18. So you agree that

Lebanon, Syria and Egypt should also cease to exist?

[Crunchy Frog]

19. They should cease to exist as undemocratic countries

that practice systematic discrimitation, and become democratic countries with equal rights for all. Yes, absolutely. :)

[Phx_Dem]

20. Israel is already a democracy

and all citizens have equal rights, including arab citizens. If the Palestinians want a state of their own, maybe they should negotiate a permanent settlement with Israel.

[Crunchy Frog]

21. Israel exercises sovereignty over a large area with a large population

who are denied citizenship and rights. They are making it absolutely clear that they will not allow the creation of a viable Palestinian state. I'm really surprised that so many people think this situation is viable in the long term.

[Phx_Dem]

22. Areas A and B of the WB are controlled by the PA

and if the Palestinian leaders want to negotiate a settlement they would then control all of the WB. Israel is providing security in the WB right now because there is no one else that will.

[Crunchy Frog]

23. I'm getting tired of this back and forth.

I'm afraid at this point we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Good day. :hi:

[azurnoir]

24. If the PA "controls" area's A and B why then

does IDF act with complete authority where ever and when ever it wants, the PA can be said to have authority "on paper" but the reality is IDF has the authority and according to at least one American adviser interferes with the PA continuously.

[azurnoir]

25. Well kinda sorta on paper

"A poll by the group showed most Israelis would not be willing to accept an Arab neighbor, half of the public would not be willing to receive an Arab visitor in their home, and 40 percent believe that the State should encourage Arabs to emigrate from the country."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3231048,00.ht...

[LeftishBrit]

30. This is a very worrying thing. Racism is a bad thing.

It's a big problem in my country too. In the UK, there is anti-discrimination legislation, and in theory everyone has equal rights. But a recent poll, 60% of people considered that there are too many immigrants; and 50% considered that immigrants should be encouraged to leave 'voluntarily'. And I suspect that most of these did not make a strong distinction between immigrants and their descendants. (Thank the tabloids, which are our equivalent of your RW talk-shows, and whip up anti-immigrant hatred constantly, thus contributing significantly to the problem. Or don't thank the tabloids, just fuck them!)

I think this aspect of British culture needs lots of reform; but it doesn't invalidate Britain's existence as a state.

There are organizations that campaign against racism in Israel, and support projects that encourage integration and co-operation between Jews and Arabs.

www.newisraelfund.org

www.bsst.org.uk

[azurnoir]

32. It is an aspect of human nature

I suspect, that stems from needing a reason to consider ones self better than the other guy or somehow alpha that needs to be changed

[ProgressiveMuslim]

27. You're funny. nt

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[subsuelo]

46. How can they create a state when Israel continues stealing the land?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

28. I get so tired of this post- any- nonsense- because- they'll- tire -of- rebutting- the-bullshit..

WTF are you talking about?

[Phx_Dem]

33. Talking about the way Palestinians are treated outside the OTs

I recently ran across this report, very disturbing.

http://www.refugees.org/data/wrs/04/pdf/66-73.pdf

The siege on Nar al-Barad is the latest example of the Lebanese army's poor treatment of the Palestinian refugees. Very little has been written on the subject and as far as I know no reporters or human rights workers have yet been allowed into the camp (or what's left of it).

[ProgressiveMuslim]

34. Thanks for making the point: the right of return MUST be on the table during negotiations.

The conditions are hideous in Lebanon and Jordan.
Those conditions don't minimize Israel's responsibility; they magnify it.

[hack89]

43. I am sure it is on the table in the form of money or other reparations.

I wouldn't hold my breath that all those Palestinians will get a piece of land in Israel. So lets just say that that is what happens - what then for the refugee camps? Do you think that Lebanon and Jordan will step forward and help the Palestinians?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

47. I don't think all Palestinians WANT to return. But the crime has to be

acknowledged and compensated in a way that is fair, truthful and respectful. No one should dictate what's possible before negotiation.

[shaayecanaan]

37. The end of apartheid

was the end of South Africa as we knew it.

The average age of Jewish Israelis is 47. The average age of Arab Israelis is 26.

In fifteen years time, the Arab component of the population will have risen from 20%, to at least 26% on the most conservative estimate, or more likely, something in the vicinity of 30%. Estimates of 35% are not out of the question. Galilee is becoming more Arab by the day and the Bedouins in the Negev are breeding like rabbits. The wombs of Arab women have regained the north where their men could not. And the last fifty years have taught them never to leave their houses, not even when the Hezb'Allah shells were raining down among them. They will not move.

Immigration has all but dried up. Moving to Israel for most North American Jews equates to a $50,000 pay cut. Even eastern European Jews are financially better off if they stay in Russia. French Jews have come, but after a few years of crap wages and Iranian sabre-rattling, one imagines that all those evenings spent pensively fingering that French passport will take their toll.

There is still some time left for a two-state solution, but for the first time in 50 years, time is on the side of the Palestinians, and they know it. A few idiots on the right have suggested giving the Galilee to the Palestinians in exchange for Jerusalem. If Arab birth rates continue, the time will come when Israel begs the Arabs to take the Galilee, Jerusalem be damned.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shaayecanaan]

39. I just love the lightweights on this board

that chip in with a couple of bare assertions, and then run away.

Anyway, pray tell, to whom am I being xenophobic? Arabs or Jews? Or is it too hard to tell?

Believe me, no one is happier to see the Bedouin doubling and redoubling than me. They were the first Muslims and no doubt they will probably be the last. All I can say is: breed, you beautiful bastards, breed.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

26. You are 100% spot on. They will never allow a viable state. Time for Plan B. nt

[Vegasaurus]

31. Your "Plan B"

(a "single state") isn't happening, so you might have to go to "Plan C".

Israelis are just not that suicidal.

[subsuelo]

36. Actually we're already there, if you look at the reality honestly

There is only one state established yet there are two people. The onus is on Israel to accept the native population it forced into ghettos. What is suicidal is continuing on the current course of terrorizing each other

[Dick Dastardly]

40. No it is not on Israel

Israel can keep to to the status quo with much less misery than the Palestinians. The Palestinians are either going to have to capitulate and accept that they lost and will not get all they want and or even all that would be fair and start living as well as build a better life or the can choose to continue with their pointless rocket and terror attacks and stay in misery with the status quo. It doesnt matter whats fair or right because it is what it is and just like the countless other conflicts in history, reality is the only thing that matters at the end of the day.

[notfullofit]

41. As the saying goes

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change

The courage to change those that I can

And the wisdom to know the difference

[subsuelo]

42. "It doesnt matter whats fair or right"

Your position is now understood more clearly, thanks.

[Dick Dastardly]

48. What you and many fail to understand is that its not about

my position or your position or what I want or what you want or everything the Palestinians want or the everything the Israelis want. Its about the reality of the situation and just about every similar situation in history. There are realistic limits based on the facts on the ground and past/present experience that dictate what the Israelis will do, acceptable risks they will take and how far they will go from the status quo in either direction. Being that the Israelis are in the vastly better position they have more choice and say in the matter which is why the Palestinians need to build Israeli trust in them to move the status quo to a better place by making it worth the risk for Israel and a better/equal status quo. There is much more to this with other variables which I dont have the time to or into. Those who dont realize the realities of the dynamics in play in conflict resolutions such as this IP situation are usually in fantasyland with their expected solution.

You can try as you did to make this an ad hom against me because you dont like what I am saying as it is a reality that doesnt fit your desired solution and you dont like it but holding on to your fantasy solution doesnt change the reality of the situation

[kayecy]

49. I guess that sum's up Israel's position............."reality is the only thing that matters"

....reality is the only thing that matters at the end of the day.

I guess that sums up Israel's position..... Fairness, humanity, justice etc don't matter to them, just 'reality'.

For a hundred years, the British thought their Empire was 'reality', the Romans thought the same....Only Israel could think that 'reality' won't change, and that just possibly, one day it might regret its present indifference to the suffering of its neighbours........Folks have very long memories in this part of the world.

[Vegasaurus]

44. We keep telling you this

and you keep not believing it.

Israel is not going to compromise the security of its citizens for your idea of "moral" or "right".

Israel can continue like this for a very long time, whether or not you like it, or feel that it is "moral" or "right" or even "just".

The Palestinians, on the other hand, are becoming more miserable by the day.

And yet, they refuse to give up their resistance, their violence, or their desire to take over Israel.

Israel can continue the status quo, but the Palestinians are becoming ever more miserable.

The onus is on them to make some compromises, the first of which would be recognizing Israel and stopping the militancy.

If they don't, it is totally suicidal for them, Their society is blowing up from the inside out.

[subsuelo]

45. As if there is no onus on Israel to stop murdering Palestinians and stealing their land

Nope, it's just all the Palestinians fault for not allowing themselves to be robbed and murdered