Not in our name, say checkpoint watchers

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"Get back, get away, move, move," shouted the Israeli soldier as he and two female soldiers aimed their weapons at us threateningly.

"What is the problem?" I asked as the young, blonde, blue-eyed and red-faced Israeli soldier looked on the crowd in a state of panic.

"There is a bomb and you must move away for your own protection," he answered.

Last Sunday this Middle East Times reporter spent the afternoon at the notorious Huwara checkpoint, just south of Nablus in the northern Palestinian West Bank.

A checkpoint at which numerous abuses of Palestinians by the Israeli military have been reported in addition to a number of shootings of alleged suicide bombers, under circumstances that are hotly disputed between the Israeli soldiers who man the checkpoints and the Palestinians who pass through them.

The Middle East Times was invited to observe the checkpoint in action and to interview Machsom (Hebrew for "checkpoint") Watch, a group of mostly middle-aged Israeli women who monitor Israeli checkpoints throughout the Palestinian territories, in an endeavor to reduce the mistreatment of Palestinian civilians trying to go about their daily business."

more

[notfullofit]

1. It must be

hell having to live your daily life amongst bombs and rockets.

I think I'd be paranoid too!

[pelsar]

11. the paranoia....

is that one might slip up and let a bomber in that blows up a bus, etc. That is a lot of responsibility to lay on these soldiers

[notfullofit]

19. I can only imagine. nt

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[breakaleg]

3. And yet Palestinians still didn't have self determination, even in those golden times. funny.

[Vegasaurus]

4. Sure was a hell of a lot better than the life they have now

Militancy, terrorism and violent resistance has only made their lives more miserable, not less.

I think being able to travel freely, earn money in Israel, no wall, was much preferable, don't you?

It is "golden times", compared to the hell that they have now, because blowing up Israelis is more important than freedom of movement, apparently.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

5. No -- it was not better for a people whose goal is the same freedom YOU and Jewish Israelis enjoy.

Breakaleg is correct. The "good ol' days" of no checkpoints and slave labor in Israel really weren't so good at all.

There are more daily barriers now and people's personal situations are more dire, but the central fact of tyranny of violent military occupation remains unchanged.

[Vegasaurus]

6. That's actually pretty pathetic

to think that people would prefer to live with walls and checkpoints, simply because killing Israelis and taking back "all of greater Palestine" is the national goal.

If self determination were what the Palestinians wanted, they could have had it decades ago.

But they don't want their own state, side by side with Israel; they want Israel gone.

So, they suffer walls and checkpoints.

But that is the result of their own bad choices.

Life was better for them before, and it could be again, but not as long as Hamas and the militant groups have the goal of annihilating Israel.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

7. Life sucked before Israel's latest version of the iron fist. Occupation sucks. Period.

There aren't degrees of OK-ness to it.

Life under a violent military occupation sucks.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

21. Don't know why your other post was deleted? It's your POV to a T.

Arabs are miserable. Palestinians are pathetic.

Wouldn't you agree that sums up your POV?

I wonder why it was deleted?

[Vegasaurus]

24. No, their actions are pathetic

Having annihilating Israel as the national goal, rather than trying to have their own state, is absolutely pathetic.

Blowing up their own food and fuel, refusing to negotiate or recognize Israel, or do anything at all to improve their lives has made them miserable.

I feel very sorry for the average Palestinian who would just like to go to school or work, but is ruled by people who celebrate martyrdom, who put war with Israel over peace.

That is quite pathetic.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

25. You don't usually distinguish.

Mods must not read much of what you post.

[pelsar]

8. just curious....as you've written it before

same freedom YOU and Jewish Israelis enjoy.

you've written before about the segregation, "jim crow laws"..etc for the non jewish israelis........is its mere propaganda? hoping somebody who knows nothing about israel will believe your writing or do you actual believe the non jewish israelis dont have any freedom? (obviously you have no proof of such)

Dehumanization of a whole society because you dont like the policies of the govt?

[azurnoir]

9. Seperate schools systems social incompatibility?

sounds JCish to me

The Israeli government operates two separate school systems, one for Jewish children and one for Palestinian Arab children. Discrimination against Palestinian Arab children colors every aspect of the two systems. Education Ministry authorities have acknowledged that the ministry spends less per student in the Arab system than in the Jewish school system. The majority's schools also receive additional state and state-sponsored private funding for school construction and special programs through other government agencies. The gap is enormous--on every criterion measured by Israeli authorities.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/israel2/ISRAEL0901-01.htm


KARMIEL, Israel -- Fatina and Ahmad Zubeidat, young Arab citizens of Israel, met on the first day of class at the prestigious Bezalel arts and architecture academy in Jerusalem. Married last year, the couple rents an airy house here in the Galilee filled with stylish furniture and other modern grace notes.
But this is not where they wanted to live. They had hoped to be in Rakefet, a nearby town where 150 Jewish families live on state land close to the mall project Ahmad is building. After months of interviews and testing, the town's admission committee rejected the Arab couple on the grounds of "social incompatibility.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/19/AR2007121902681_pf.html

[pelsar]

10. a little more research would help....i keep mentioning this dont I?

there are separate school systems for religious jews, non religious jews, religious christians, religious baptists...there are separate schools for "ultra religious jews", muslims and not so religious muslims and arabs and bedouin, etc etc etc.

and the funding is incredibly unfair be it a school where there are mizrachi jews in an small town on the border, or an arab school in the galilee or a bedouin school in the negev.....

except non of that is codified in law...in fact the law writes of equality...hence there is no "Jim"Crow Laws" nor is their lawful separation.....
____

but then again, the laws of israel arent really the point is it?.....its really about dehumanizing the whole society.....evil evil israel, its almost as bad as the US in terms of its discrimination

btw, why did the US govt introduce AIDs into its black population?...and didnt the CIA get the blacks hooked on heroin?

[azurnoir]

12. We do not have laws aconcerning

funding so it can not be Jim Crow? the word defacto comes to mind here

As for your last assertions please - do tell i have not heard of those before

[notfullofit]

14. If you mean this remark....

'btw, why did the US govt introduce AIDs into its black population?...and didnt the CIA get the blacks hooked on heroin?'

Have you not heard Obama's pastor's sermons?

[azurnoir]

15. Nope n/t

[notfullofit]

16. That is where those quotes (amongst many others) came from. nt

[Shaktimaan]

18. Do you know what the Jim Crow laws were?

We do not have laws aconcerning funding so it can not be Jim Crow? the word defacto comes to mind here

Um, that's right. It is de-facto segregation, which occurs outside of governmental influence and is thus not at all reminiscent of Jim Crow.

We might as well be saying, "Just because equality for all races and ethnicities are guaranteed under the law, do you think that means that Jim Crow isn't an applicable description?" or perhaps... "Oh, so you think that just because no one died that it can't be considered Genocide?"

These words actually mean something. Since Israel doesn't have institutionalized discrimination like America once exhibited, it doesn't make any sense to use the word that described said institutional racism.

[azurnoir]

23. So your saying that

that HRW is lying? Oh and of course you throw in genocide for good measure. Please, but I will take the "separate but equal" excuse, it will most likely work better there than it did here.

[Shaktimaan]

30. HRW said that Israel has Jim Crow legislation?

Bullshit. Show me where HRW accused Israel of instituting Jim Crow legislation.

Now, who has even said anything about separate but equal except for you? It's a free country, people are free to segregate themselves if they want to. Remember how the national guard was called out to ensure the safety of Black students during integration in America? I'm sure that you do. Now, notice that in Israel Arab students are not prevented from attending Jewish majority schools, and the ones that do choose to attend these schools do not require the services of the national guard.

See, separate but equal isn't an excuse I offered, but a charge you made. Thankfully it is another untrue charge, just like this Jim Crow nonsense. I've noticed that you tend to accuse Israel of these horrible crimes only to then try and explain how something entirely ordinary for most states, like de-facto segregation, is actually an example of Jim Crow laws provided it happened in Israel.

But I digress. Show me please where HRW accused Israel of passing Jim Crow-style laws.

[oberliner]

31. If you want to see Jim Crow style laws in action in the Middle East - take a trip to Saudi Arabia

Big US ally in the Middle East.

Good luck acquiring a travel visa.

[pelsar]

28. every society is unfair...

to certain sectors....and its mainly based on money. Inner city US schools made up mainly of blacks have less resources available than do lilly white suburbs..and that is just one obvious example. Israel is not different.

and if you havent heard those assertions you've not been listening to well to Obamas "friends and mentors"....

[azurnoir]

35. True enough

that every society is unfair to "certain sectors", but in this case it unlike Obama's example it is an ethnic sector, there was segregation in America's schools at one time, but are you familiar with Brown vs Board of Education? It would be different if schools in Tel Aviv had older books and larger class sizes than schools an affluent suburb.

All of this leads me to a question I feel foolish to have to ask but- Are Israeli Arabs generally literate in or at least able to speak Hebrew?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

20. You seriously contend that Jewish and Arab Israelis have equal footing in Israeli society?

I think *you're* hoping people who know nothing believe it!

I've spent time places like Shefa Amr.

When I first went to Israel in 1985, young American zionist, believing that Israel was a light to the nations, within 24 hours I was like, WTF??? This society is segregated! Every waiter, every street cleaner, every service person was Arab.

From land purchase/permits to Eurovision...

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

26. Life was ruined long before the first suicide bomber. Nice try, tho. nt

[Vegasaurus]

27. If you don't think life was better before checkpoints and walls

when Palestinians held jobs (even if you think they were "beneath them", they were real jobs that paid real money, which is better than living on the global dole, as they do now, in abject poverty), you are crazy.

It is not all equivalent.

Life sucks WAY worse for the Palestinians now, and as someone who purports to have family there, I would think you would care about their suffering and see that it is their actions, their violence, terrorism, etc. that has made their lives so bad,

Life was better before.

It is worse now.

The reason it is worse is because of nonstop terrorism.

Not because of the "Zionist regime"

But because of their terrorism.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

32. Life under Israel's violent military occupation has been a half life since day one. You would never

accept it.

Neither do Palestinians.

Stop deluding yourself.

[Vegasaurus]

33. Palestinians lived under occupation

for 20 years from Egypt and Jordan.

Did they complain about their half lives during that violent military occupation?

Did they complain about the half lives they had and still have in arab countries where they are kept in refugee camps, unable to hold any jobs, or expelled from the countries?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

34. It was not a violent military occupation, was it? Your constant attempts to minimize the evil

perpetrated by Israel against the Palestinian people is pathetic.

Just have the guts to admit it. The Kahanists do.

[pelsar]

29. your wrote Segregation and Jim Crow laws...

and if you think "every waiter, every street cleaner every service person is arab, than perhaps it because you were visiting arab villages?
________

shall i take some pictures for you of jewish waiters? and other service persons? (that would include my daughter and friends)

and the eurovision contest?.....You dont think your grasping at straws using the eurovision contest as proof of segregation?

__

how about some real evidence, something serious iike perhaps racial laws (oops they're arent any)...i know perhaps separate but equal signs (damn arent any)...i got one.. the IDF, no non jews allowed in the elite units....except there is a druze navigator, druze in the commando units and and a muslim in the airforce rescue unit...damn

____

face it PM, israel is about as racist as any western democratic country..however if you really want racism, just take a look at hamas run gaza or the PA, there we got some real racism for you......

[eyl]

13. I wrote this in the other thread where this piece was posted,

but it bears repeating:

However, there was no explosion following his shooting which would have occurred under normal circumstances had there been explosives attached to the body

Methinks someone's been watching too many Hollywood flicks. Shooting a suicide bomber does not necessarily set off whatever explosives he's carrying. For example

I have been coming to Huwara once a week for years and the Palestinians have never tried to smuggle a bomb through this checkpoint.

Then she apparently isn't very observant:

Incident 1
Incident 2
Incident 3
The article doesn't say so explicitly, but this happened at the same checkpoint
So did this.

[azurnoir]

17. Net s-l-o-w loading

probably because Obama gave his "presumptive" victory speech in this neck of the woods, ironically in the same place where the Republican convention will be held, took 4 tries to get this far at 438 am so will get back to you, can not get links to load.