PA wants 'festive' funeral for coastal road killer

[Behind the Aegis]

The Palestinian Authority has asked Israel to hand over the remains of Dalal Mughrabi, the Palestinian woman who led the March 11, 1978 coastal road attack in which 36 people were murdered and 71 wounded.

Israel is planning to deliver Mughrabi's remains, together with those of scores of Palestinians and Lebanese, to Hizbullah in the context of the new prisoner exchange between the two sides.

The PA said in its request that it wanted to "honor" Mughrabi by holding a big funeral for her in Ramallah.

Azzam al-Ahmed, a senior Fatah official closely associated with PA President Mahmoud Abbas, described Mughrabi, whose family originally came from Jaffa, as a "the first Palestinian woman to carry out one of the most courageous operations in Israel." He claimed that in her will, Mughrabi, who belonged to Fatah, had asked her family to see to it that she was buried in "Palestine."

more....

[Sezu]

1. Moloch would be pleased. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

6. Who's Moloch and why would they be pleased? n/t

[eyl]

7. Ancient Mediterranean god

best known for having children sacrificed to him.

[Violet_Crumble]

8. Thanks. Maybe I'm just not getting it, but...

...I don't really see a connection between some ancient god into child sacrifice and this story....

[azurnoir]

61. Remember the claims

of a former poster here that the Palestinians were the decedents of the Philistines?

[notfullofit]

9. I thought

Moloch was another name for Baal, no?

[eyl]

10. That's one of the theories, I believe

There's also a school of thought which states that "Moloch" actually refers to the rite of sacrifice rather than a specific god.

[Sezu]

11. Could be, but eyl is correct that it also may be a term to

describe a specific event. In common usage nowadays though it is usually thought of as a deity which is served by brutal deliberate human sacrifice especially of children. Since worship is bound up in the metaphor I thought it apropos to use it to describe the hero's welcome awaiting Kuntar by the Lebanese, a welcome which while not agreed about by a minority of Lebanese, has not been decried by any Lebanese state official or major local news source. I await with interest the reports from Lebanon when the welcome happens so that we can see just who besides Hezbollah rejoices in the release of such a scumbag.

I might add that I am happy for Lebanon that it has secured the release of some of its prisoners and war remains and find no fault in THAT rejoicing but find the hero worship of Kuntar a barbaric enterprise and a stain on that whole nation.

[notfullofit]

40. A national hero

snip...

IDF officials estimated Tuesday that Kuntar will be welcomed in a festive manner, and that Hizbullah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah may even leave his hiding place for several hours in order to take part in the celebrations.

"One must remember that Hizbullah caused great damage in Lebanon and 20 times more casualties than in Israel. Therefore, with all due respect to their celebrations, we must remember the real situation. They are about to turn a despicable killer who murdered a four-year-old girl into a national hero. This testifies to their grim situation," an IDF official said.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3568851,00.html

[blue sky at night]

2. you know......

i never knew the keystone state was in the middle-east; god I hate acronyms.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sezu]

4. Not just Palestinians. Lebanon is preparing a hero's

welcome for the baby killer Kuntar as well.

[notfullofit]

5. This also from Mr. al-Ahmed

'Ahmed also praised Lebanese prisoner Samir Kuntar for carrying out another terror attack in Israel one year after the 1978 carnage. He described Kuntar as a "stubborn and firm fighter in the ranks of the Lebanese resistance who led a very courageous operation."

Sick values!

[Sezu]

12. Yes, it takes a lot of courage to crush a 4 year old's

skull with a rifle butt and a rock just in case that didn't work. Why can't people just give baby killing savage terrorists their due? Perhaps Kuntar can be placed as head of training for baby killing 101 in the Hezbollah training organization.

[notfullofit]

13. Why was Kuntar

not executed for the murders?

[Sezu]

14. AFAIK, Israel has no death penalty altho an exception

was made for Eichmann.

[notfullofit]

15. Too damn bad,

the world would be a far better place without him and his ilk.

[Sezu]

16. A celebration of evil

Preparations are in full swing in Lebanon to celebrate the return of Samir Kuntar.

Final preparations underway in Israel and Lebanon for prisoner swap

Kuntar, who is serving multiple life sentences for one of the most brutal terrorist attacks in Israel's history, is due to be released tomorrow as part of a prisoner exchange with Hizbullah for Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev, the two soldiers abducted in a July 2006 cross-border raid that triggered the Second Lebanon War.

According to the Lebanese media, Kuntar will be given a festive reception by Hizbullah at its headquarters in southern Beirut, and welcomed personally by its leader, Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah. He will then travel to Aabey, the mountain village where he was born on July 20, 1962, and, according to village leader Nazih Hamza, there will be a huge celebration for him there.

Lebanon has just formed a national unity government under a Qatar-brokered deal, in which Hizbullah has two ministers and veto power. Lebanon's prime minister, Fuad Saniora, has indicated that his government supports the festivities planned for Kuntar. A recent statement issued by Saniora's office said he shared with the Lebanese people the joy of the upcoming release of prisoners by Israel, including that of Kuntar.

So it appears that the official State position is joy at the release of the baby killer. Although I have always been very supportive of Lebanon I can not be any longer. The State has shown that barbarism is its default position. Shame on Lebanon. I shed a tear for its people who are not in line with this policy for the entire nation is now tarred with the same brush.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1215330965865&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[Vegasaurus]

18. Damn bad slippery slope for the Israelis too

I disagree 100% with the release of this bloodthirsty terrorist.

[Sezu]

21. Peres just pardoned Kuntar. Incroyable! n/t

[notfullofit]

76. Kuntar receives a hero's welcome

snip...

The five were flown by two army helicopters from the southern Lebanese border town of Naqoura, where they were cheered by hundreds of spectators and received a red-carpet welcome and a Hizbullah honor guard.

snip

Nasrallah told tens of thousands of people at the rally that the age of defeats was gone and that now it was the age of victories.


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1215330979803&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

I wonder if there really were 'tens of thousands of people at the rally'

[leftynyc]

17. As I understand it, they do have the

death penalty but only for crimes against humanity which is what they convicted eichman of.

[azurnoir]

28. Kuntar was not executed in part

because because he was 16 years old when he committed the murders.

[pelsar]

32. no....(again?)

kuntar was not executed because israel does not have the death penalty except for extraordinary circumstances (killing israeli children isnt really extraordinary)

[notfullofit]

34. I hold a different view...

'(killing israeli children isnt really extraordinary)'

[pelsar]

36. just writing realistically

many of those who entered israel to kill were very specific about their targets, be it schools, childrens houses (within the kibbutz) etc....and none if they were caught were executed....Kuntar went the extra mile by bashing the childs head in....

[azurnoir]

38. Again ? You claim Kuntars crime was not extraordinary?

If Israel executed Eichmann then Israel instituted the death penalty as it see's fit, Eichmann was extraordinary as was the killing of a 4 year old in the manner described, unless of course you disagree with that or isd killing children not extraordinary for Israeli's?

[notfullofit]

39. There are

varying degrees of evil I guess, Eichmann was after all responsible for the deaths of millions of Jews, young and old alike.
Kuntar was stopped before he got that far but I'm sure his intent was the same had he only been given the chance.

[LeftishBrit]

45. I think they created some ruling by which they could execute Eichmann...

but they have literally never sentenced anyone else to death. And that would include child-killers and other very evil people.

While Kuntar's youth at the time of the crime might have exempted him from the DP in a country that has it (and might be a justification for release if he were now showing the slightest remorse, which he isn't), I don't think it was relevant in Israel: they wouldn't have excecuted an older murderer either.

[eyl]

91. Israeli law allows for the death penalty

to be given by a civil court for genocide and "crimes against the Jewish people" (murder of Jews in the Holocaust) and for treason or assisting the enemy in wartime. A military court can give a death sentence for treason, desertion under fire, or espionage, and for terrorism.

In practise, while a few death sentences have been handed down over the years, they've invariably (other than Eichman) been reduced (usually to life in prison) by the Supreme Court or by the IDF Chief of Staff (in the case of several military verdicts)

[notfullofit]

106. I just found this...

snip...

The Israeli government determined at first to make a decision to execute Kuntar, for his horrific crime, especially for the fact that he tortured and beat to death the 4-year old toddler. Israeli Prime Minister at that time, Menachem Beagin , proposed a draft resolution to the Security and Foreign Affairs Committee in the Israeli Keenest on April 24, 1979. He demanded to eliminate a previous resolution stipulated by the Israeli cabinet, which said no execution should be implemented against terrorists as the international law prohibits it. The Israeli Foreign Minister Izer Weizman and Transportation Minister Hayeem Landau supported Beagin’s draft resolution. Abraham Sharer, who was the head of the Likude parliamentary bloc also, called for Kuntar’s execution. Isaac Shamir issued a statement on April 25, 1979 also calling for his execution.
an Israeli court.

The Israelis tried to implement the execution sentence on Samir Kuntar and the whole parliament agreed on them. The only dilemma they were having was the Israeli law that doesn’t allow execution except for the Nazis of the World War II and to those found guilty of betrayal to their country. Furthermore, they did not want the international community on their backs; also, they wanted to improve their relationship with Egypt after the peace process. As a consequence, the Israeli central court in Haifa sentenced Kuntar to 5 life sentences plus 47 years to come up with the total of 542 years. During the trial, Kuntar was waving victory signs, and called himself a hero.

Samir Kuntar has confessed proudly to his murder of the little girl and never once showed one ounce of remorse for his crime. Even while serving his prison term, he has bragged repeatedly during interviews about how proud he was for murdering the 4-year-old Israeli child. While in prison Kuntar got married and even receives conjugal visits. Below he stands proudly alongside other convicted Arab murderer, Marwan Barghouti.


http://samirkuntar.net/

[ProgressiveMuslim]

19. You guys are all so correct. Those fucking animals. Israel should just nuke 'em now.

Think of the savings to the American taxpayer!

[Sezu]

20. No one mentioned nukes but you. And for the most part

it was ONE particular fucking animal, Kuntar the joyous baby killer we have been talking about. Do you SUPPORT this scum?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

25. No. I'm sure many in Palestine will have a similar reaction when Sharon is feted after his death.

[Sezu]

26. Sharon bashed a 4 year old girls brains in with

a rifle butt and a rock????? Do tell.

[Violet_Crumble]

42. So the only brutality against children is that one specific instance?

Nonsense. Surely yr aware that Sharon was responsible for the deaths of many children over his long and bloody career. Just because he didn't bash a 4 year olds head in with a rifle butt doesn't make what he did any less wrong...

[ProgressiveMuslim]

51. No, I think Sharon was actually involved in much larger scale slaughter.

[leftynyc]

55. So, in your mind, that makes

having a fucking parade and party for a child murderer okay? Or are you just excusing it because the right side did the killing?

[Vegasaurus]

57. Ding, ding ding!

We have a winning answer!

[ProgressiveMuslim]

77. I think it's absurd to view this thru the lens of Israeli rhetoric.

I don't join the celebration. I understand what it represents.

Just like when Sharon dies, I will understand that there are those in Israel who will mourn him. Personally, I hope the devil spits in his face when he enters hell. But do I childishly expect that all people will share my POV? Will I make posts on the DU that suggest those who mourn Sharon are subhuman? No I will not.

What sucks about discussion on this board is that there really IS NONE.

Israel-onlies are absolutely incapable of looking at this conflict from any other POV. Kuntar is a baby killer. True. What the heck is the IDF? A bunch of baby killers. You think because there is public hand wringing when they murder a child that it changes the reality of what they are? Israel has killed/jailed/raped far more Paletsinian kids than Palestinians have done to Israel. What does that make Israel?

Moustapha Barghouti saw this as a victory. He is a secular progressive in Palestine. Doesn't the fact that someone like him doesn't share your view make you think you might want to explore his POV?

[Sezu]

82. Uh I think most people look through the humanity lens.

You may not recognize it especially if you feel a need to talk about an lens of Israeli rhetoric.

That lens of humanity needs no "Israeli rhetoric," to condemn the worship of the baby killer Kuntar. The Lebanese bloggers are almost all against this abomination too. Do you really think THEY are looking through an Israeli lens?

And if Barghouti embraces this all as a victory, then his brand of progressivism seems to be based on continued kidnapping, killing and ransom while hiding the fact that the prisoners are dead in order to torture the relatives.

Progressive my ass.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

83. You don't even know who he is.

Quick... run to wikipedia!

[pelsar]

92. but i do...

and politics be what they may...the celebration of kuntar tells us a lot about the values of his supporters...and they appear to include govt officials, public personal etc.

supporting/celebrating the release of someone who bashed in the head of little girl is hardly a "western progressive value"...nor a western liberal value or even a conservative value......

its nationalism at it worse, where the 'ends justifies the means" where demonization of the enemy is paramount......not only is it pathetic, like the suicide bombers in the long run it only hurts the Palestinian cause by having a set of values that are "anti human"....and that israelis, the only partners the Palestinians have in the long run, cant stomach it.

[notfullofit]

93. Finally, some sanity, thank you. nt.

[Vegasaurus]

84. This is not a victory for any progressive

Muslim or not.

It has nothing to do with seeing something through an "Israeli lens".

Basic human decency says that you do not celebrate, pass candies and have a parade to honor a baby killer.

That is no lens, except the lens of human decency.

[azurnoir]

53. No there is no record of Sharon

personally doing that, however he did preside over the deaths of children.

[Sezu]

59. Sharon has things to answer for no doubt but to try

and equate HIS actions with the actions of the scum Kuntar is totally disingenusous AND deliberately an apologist position towards baby killing murderers and their death worshipping supporters. Why anyone would take that loser position is beyond me.

[azurnoir]

60. LOL

Sharon presided over Shatila and Sabra and apologist? I was not apologizing for anyone but do keep claiming so if it pleases you to do so, I do notice you "pro's" seem to be having quite the hate fest today and still not one word of sorrow about the Israeli soldiers who's deaths supposedly inspired the whole mess, makes me wonder if.......

[notfullofit]

62. A

'hate fest' as opposed to the 'love fest' some are having for Kuntar and his ilk?

[azurnoir]

63. Who said anything about loving Kuntar?

I have not VC has not, PM has not....

[notfullofit]

64. To whom

or what are you referring to with 'hate fest'?

Are we to be called out because we hate Kuntar and his dastardly deeds?

[azurnoir]

65. No it not Kuntar

but the condemnation of the Palestinians and Lebanon.

[notfullofit]

66. The only

Palestinian condemnation is of those celebrating deaths.
As for Lebanon, well............

[azurnoir]

67. As for the Palestinians

i would reread some comments, albeit some the worst have been deleted. As for the blanket condemnation of the Lebanese any positive reaction there is IMHO the direct result of the 2006 conflict, not to excuse but hardly a surprise.

[notfullofit]

68. 'Hardly a surprise', agreed. nt

[azurnoir]

69. But for entirely different reasons

your comment implies a blanket condemnation of the Lebanese people. Israel for its part wound up back to square one doing what it could have in first place and saved nearly 2,000 lives in the process (1887) by my calculations both combatants and noncombatants not to mention Hezbollah might well not be enjoying the "popularity" they are today.

[Vegasaurus]

70. No one is condemning Palestinians or Lebanese

except those that are celebrating a cold blooded murderer.

Quite frankly, if the Palestinians and other Arabs don't want to be accused of celebrating death every time an Israeli is murdered, they should stop doing it.

Their actions bring out the very obvious and vigorous condemnation AS THEY SHOULD.

[cali]

22. I disagree with the death sentence and those panting for revenge

on this thread. I find it sickening. I also find your manipulative melodrama equally sickening. Kuntar really is the worst of the worst, but it doesn't even register with you. As I said, sickening.

[notfullofit]

23. I agree.

The firing squad is too good for the likes of Kuntar.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

24. No manipulation.

Is is really that shocking that Palestinians have a different view of their history and its actors?

Like I said above, I'm sure Sharon will be celebrated upon his death.

This is an opportunity for the usual cast of characters to "legally" trash talk Arabs on this forum. Reading that crap day in and day out gets old.

[notfullofit]

27. You are correct

there, everyone has the 'legal' right to trash talk Kuntar, we are not talking generally about Arabs, just the likes of him.

Correct also, there will be a whole lot of celebrating when Sharon dies.

[azurnoir]

29. Kuntar is not an Arab, he is a Druze n/t

[notfullofit]

31. Druze

Ancestry

The Druze faith did extend to many areas in the Middle East and even reached Persia and India <22> but most of the surviving modern Druze can trace their origin to the Wadi al-Taym in South Lebanon, which is so called after an Arab tribe Taym-Allah (formerly Taym-Allat) which, according to the greatest Arab historian, al-Tabari, first came from Arabia into the valley of the Euphrates where they were Christianized prior to their migration into the Lebanon. Many of the Druze feudal families whose genealogies have been preserved to us by the two modern Syrian chroniclers: Haydar al-Shihabi and al-Shidyaq, seem also to point in the direction of the same origin. Arabian tribes which emigrated via the Persian Gulf and stopped in Iraq on the route that was later to lead them to Syria. The first feudal Druze family, the Tanukh family, which made for itself a name in fighting the Crusaders, was according to Haydar al-Shihabi , an Arab tribe from Mesopotamia where it occupied the position of a ruling family and was apparently Christianized.<23>


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druze

[azurnoir]

37. Druze are generally referred to seperately

except for rhetorical purposes, such as this

[Cherchez la Femme]

107. I don't understand

What is your point? That all Arabs should be lumped in with and considered as Muslims?
Isn't that saying that all Americans are or should be considered Christian?

If that's not what you're implying -- what IS you are trying to say here? I really can't tell...

[ProgressiveMuslim]

52. The OP is about the PA calling for celebration.

To me that reads like much wider scale bashing, than one individual.

[leftynyc]

56. Tell me

Do you think he deserves a parade? A yes or no will suffice and don't bother with the moral equivalance crap. Simply, do you consider this person worthy of a parade and celebration?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

78. I said in another thread this isn't something I celebrate.

Truthfully, I don't support parades that honor the US military who return from Iraq either.

Is your problem with the trade, Israel's mistake, or the way the Arabs regard Kuntar?

[Dick Dastardly]

30. So trash talking Kuntar who smashed the head of a baby with his rifle butt

and other such murderers is trash talking Arabs?

So if we accept this logic from you then you trashed talked Jews. Furthermore, trash talking Jews is acceptable but not Arabs as you did to Jews what you said was not acceptable to Arabs . I always thought trash talking any group was bad. Why would you knowingly trash talk Jews? Please correct me if I am mistaken and explain why you did what you said was wrong, I am puzzled.

[Dick Dastardly]

33. I dont know about you but

Is is really that shocking that Palestinians have a different view of their history and its actors?

having a different view of the likes of these guys as heros is whats shocking. Decent people dont celebrate people who crush childrens heads with rifle butts or commit mass murder. Baruch Goldstein is not celebrated as a hero except by a small group of wackos. He and those who support him are not consdidered acceptable by the Public and are reviled.

[notfullofit]

35. Looks like a

whole damned nation considers him hero, which in my mind makes them almost as bad as he is.
Is that their mindset, gloryfying baby killers?

[Violet_Crumble]

41. Which 'whole damned nation' considers Kuntar a hero?

And if you think anyone who thinks that what he did was something to be praised is almost as bad as someone who deliberately and with no remorse brutally murdered a little girl, then I'm pretty sure you don't comprehend the horror of what he did...

[Dick Dastardly]

71. Right here

Hizbollah killer gets hero's welcome in Lebanon

He was greeted with a red-carpet welcome at the Lebanese border, with Hizbollah officials and well-wishers present, and then delivered to Beirut's Rafik Hariri International Airport by presidential helicopter, where he was greeted by the new Lebanese president, Michel Suleiman, the prime minister, Fouad Siniora, and parliamentary speaker, Nabih Berri.

At a massive celebration in Beirut's southern suburbs, controlled by Hizbollah, Kuntar addressed the cheering crowd.

“Thank God we arrived to this day, this day of victory, never to return to a day of defeat. Thank God who gave me strength... and who always gave me hope in the moments of weaknesses," Kuntar said.

“Thank God who gave me the ability to endure, challenge and face imprisonment. Thank God (who) resurrected in this country a resistance, this great Islamic resistance,” he added.

The celebrations were also marked by a victory speech by Hizbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah.



cut
Also included in the swap, among 199 bodies of dead Lebanese and Palestinians – most of them guerrilla fighters – was the body of Dalal Mughrabi, a Lebanese-born Palestinian refugee who was 19 when she and 11 others hijacked a bus in what was later known in Israel as the Coastal Road massacre.

Thirty-six Israelis died in a shootout with police and detonation of the bus, along with Miss Mughrabi and her fellow commandos.

Now venerated by both Palestinians and Lebanese as one of the first women to engage in such an attack, she is remembered in songs and stories and her body's release has also triggered celebration.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/lebanon/2304383/Hizbollah-killer-gets-hero's-welcome-in-Lebanon.html

[notfullofit]

72. Can't get much more

venerated than that!

'greeted by the new Lebanese president, Michel Suleiman, the prime minister, Fouad Siniora, and parliamentary speaker, Nabih Berri.'

Kuntar addressed the cheering crowd. (I assume it was a small crowd?)

[Vegasaurus]

43. You bet.

Celebrating killers, murderers and terrorists is despicable.

There is absolute evil in these actions, and speaks volumes about those who celebrate them.

[LeftishBrit]

46. IMO it speaks volumes about how horribly people are corrupted by war..

not to mention the media spin they get from their government.

It doesn't meant that Palestinians as a group are evil.

Kuntar himself, however, is a monster.

[Vegasaurus]

47. People who celebrate death and destruction are evil

There are far too many of these people, willing to martyr themselves, and then be celebrated by their friends, families and governments when they do.

Their acts are heralded and celebrated (the sweets passing has happened every single time in recent history when Israelis have been murdered in cold blood by terrorists) by far too many people. Not everyone. But many people.

This is not an isolated occurance.

It happens EVERY time Israelis are killed by Palestinians or other Arab martyrs.

There is something wrong with people who celebrate death with handing out candies.

I stand by that Point of view.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[notfullofit]

50. Officially greeted by three most senior politicians in Lebanon

snip...

'The men are to be flown to Beirut later, where they are to be officially greeted by the three most senior politicians in Lebanon: President Michel Suleiman, Prime Minister Fouad Siniora and parliamentary speaker Nabih Berri.

That event is significant as these three leaders are from different Lebanese political factions, as well as different sects. Superficially, this is a moment of unity in a country that is deeply divided.'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7509992.stm

[Sezu]

58. Truly disgusting and all the Lebanese blogs I have

visited are in agreement. Thank God some Lebanese are still sane.

[cali]

73. And celebrating Sharon is something I also find repugnant

I find it just sad that you excuse the celebration of Kuntar to be simply a different perspective. Imagine if it was YOUR 4 year old child who had her head bashed in by an Israeli settler in Gaza just after witnessing your husband's brutal murder.

And sorry, you trash talk Israelis day after day. You're just the flip side of the coin from the OP and others here who engage in Palestinian/Arab bashing.

No difference at all.

[Vegasaurus]

74. Some of the worst anti-semitic Israeli trash talking

goes on here every day, by the same select few haters.

I figure someone has to be here to counter balance that, even if it becomes tedious.

[azurnoir]

101. Please enlighten us

Post some of these antiSemetic remarks that you claim are here by the same few "haters" note that anti-occupation is not the same as antiSemetic but if you must for once actually prove the BS you post day after day after day after day after day.................
Because you never do actually prove the propaganda you catapult

[ProgressiveMuslim]

79. No other POV worth considering?

Firstly, I am very clear in my posts that my problem is with the Israeli gov't and the forces who support the ongoing occupation of Palestine and the attempts to destroy the society and culture.
I am fully aware that there are forces in Israel that don't support the status quo, just as there are Americans who don't support Bush's neocon agenda.

Second, do you honestly deny there is no other to look at this issue?

I'd be curious to your take on Mustapha Barghouti's position.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=218034&mesg_id=218034

Whenever the majority of people in Palestine -- including progressive secularists like Barghouti -- hold a position, I personally think it's worth examining, as I'm not ready to throw the entire nation out with the bathwater.

Cali, on a personal level, you're free to believe about my purposes what you want. My primary purpose for posting here is to try to pass along news and PsOV from Palestinian sources.

[notfullofit]

80. I for one

would be very interested to learn more about the Palestinian POV. The problem is, we only get to hear from the extremists and that is not very palatable.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

81. My point is that non-extremists also had a positive response to the trade.

You define as "extremist" anyone who doesn't hold the views expressed by Zionists on this forum.

I don't think that's a very good definition.

[notfullofit]

87. I really don't believe

those angered by Kuntar's release are showing a Zionist POV, any decent human being should consider this man a monster and he should have been left to rot in jail.

snip

'Israel set free the perpetrator of one of the grisliest attacks in its history,'

snip

'Hezbollah supporters set up a makeshift stage in the coastal town of Naqoura, where a brass band awaited the returning prisoners. On the platform stood a large photograph of a weeping Israeli woman. A nearby sign read, "Israel is shedding tears of pain." "Lebanon is shedding tears of joy," read another.'

http://www.asharqalawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=1&id=13408

This from an Arab newspaper and they don't seem to hold a very positive response to the trade.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

88. My point is simple: street reaction to Kuntar's release is the least important aspect of

these events.

Many in Lebanon, a country which suffered immensely at the hands of Israel, consider him a fighter.
You don't. You are joined by many posters here who believe that it's inhuman to ever involve Israeli civilians in armed struggle. I get that.

The article you post is a Saudi paper. I'm sure they're shitting their pants as Hezbollah's growing power, influence and nose-thumbing of the west.

Would you mind sharing what your connection to this conflict is? I find it helpful to know a bit about the posters here and how they think.

[notfullofit]

89. No, no, no,

you said

'street reaction to Kuntar's release is the least important aspect of
these events.'

but this image is what the western world sees and condemns, they wonder what kind of people are they who would have a national holday for a baby killer.

you said

'many posters here believe that it's inhuman to ever involve Israeli civilians in armed struggle. I get that.'

When the Israeli civilians are babies, hell yes it's inhumane to deliberately, intentionally murder them.
------

I try to find and read any Arab newspapers printed in English, did not realize this one is Saudi, no matter.

I have no connection whatsoever to this conflict except on a personal level through Jewish friends who have families living in Israel.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

90. I know it's the image that the west endlessly loops on CNN, but I don't think it's the

most important feature. Newsflash: Israel has done heinous things in Lebanon -- is it really all that shocking that many would greet the return of Kuntar with celebration? Does that *really* shock you?

[notfullofit]

94. Yes, I'm afraid it does

especially as they are aware that his deeds were not in anyway heroic but cowardly and pure unadulterated evil. We are talking about a baby killer here.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

95. You should spend a week or two in a refugee camp.

You'd view this conflict with entirely new eyes.

[pelsar]

98. what does living in a refuge camp have to do with it?

kuntar in fact as a druze spent no time in a refugee camp (to my knowledge).....and does living poorly excuse a celebration of some smashing in the head of a 4 yr old?...if you want to explain that "its their culture"...then i would say their culture has some major human life value problems..... because that is what you seem to be saying:

understand them.... celebrating kuntar even though he is a baby killer is perfectly understandable because ........(i cant think of why for those lebanese....).

btw i find the celebrations and what it appears to be your attempts to play down the celebrations as indicative of the conflict and the base value differences.....cant say i can remember any celebrations of israelis who killed Palestinians in cold blood.....can you?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

100. My point is that a week or two under the iron fist explains how people

can feel joyful when Israel suffers.

Simple human psychology.

I'm not talking about Kuntar. I'm talking about the reaction to the swap.

[pelsar]

102. lebanese or palestinians?

i bet most of those celebrating have never even met the "iron fist"...they are simply victims of hate propaganda......

as far as gazans handing out candy etc....there i would agree with you...a reaction to the occupation and the continual frustration of being on the "losing end"....

____

btw i understand your identifying with the Palestinians and not doubt internally celebrating every time israel loses...and in fact i have no problem with that...but i do think you should differentiate when some action whereas it may be bad for israel, is worse for the Palestinian goals..... Kuntar and suicide bombers are good examples of that....both in the long run will make matters worse for your cause. i would think for those who want peace as opposed to "justice", they would be absolutely disgusted at the thought of a heros welcome for Kuntar

on the other hand if your goal is some kind of subjective "justice"...then no doubt it will include the killing of israelis to sort of "even the score" so to speak, in which case celebrating his return is more understandable as he did "score points" for the Palestinian side....

lets just not pretend this is some kind of "western progressive value".....its more like a middle east tribal vengeance value. (and that has only made matters worse for the Palestinians)

[ProgressiveMuslim]

103. I am not celebrating anything.

I think Israel made a huge mistake, once again showing that it only responds to force. This foolish move stregnthed groups like Hamas, which argues that Israel will never move forward peacefully, but only when it is forced to through violence.

But I can certainly understand how making Israel bend in any way, feels like a victory for those who have been its victims.

As for propaganda, look how Americans celebrated when Saddam was toppled. We certainly never experiened an iota of hardship at his hands. Doesn't take much to whip people up, does it?

[pelsar]

104. yea..i agree

we all like having a 'bogeyman"...

As for propaganda, look how Americans celebrated when Saddam was toppled. We certainly never experiened an iota of hardship at his hands. Doesn't take much to whip people up, does it?

[LeftishBrit]

105. ITA, and you are right about how easy it is to whip up 'war fever'

[notfullofit]

99. Pelsar said it for me. nt

[Vegasaurus]

86. Try to find news from the Palestinian media or leadership

(either political or religious) that does not endorse an extremist view (and to me, calling to destruction of Israel is quite extremist).

I would like to read the words of these peaceful non-extremists myself, and hope that several links are posted from leaders in Palestine who favor peace alongside an Israeli state.

I won't hold my breath, but I sure hope someone comes up with one. Or two.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sezu]

96. Guess it's progressive to some. Woe unto them. n/t

[Vegasaurus]

97. Celebrating terrorists is NOT PROGRESSIVE

what kind of regressive, backwards bullshit is this, that people think it is OK to have parades and parties for murderers?

It is a SICKNESS, INSANITY, and definitely NOT progressive.

[LeftishBrit]

44. I agree with you - my country hasn't had the DP in 40 years

But some people need to be locked up. And I don't think Kuntar deserved release. That isn't any more anti-Palestinian, than opposing the release of Ian Huntley (notorious British child-murderer) would be anti-British.

[Scurrilous]

48. LOL

Way to 'bigelate' the thread PM. Should make some here feel right at home.

[leftynyc]

54. Careful about that knee jerk

Nobody is mentioning attacking anyone and certainly not using nukes but you. What does that tell you?

[LeftishBrit]

75. self-deleted (wrong place)