Obama: We'll make sure Palestinians have a state

[notfullofit]

Yitzhak Benhorin Published: 07.27.08, 21:45 / Israel News

WASHINGTON – "The Palestinian people are having a very tough time right now economically, and it is in US interests to make sure that they have a sense of hope and opportunity and a Palestinian state. I think it's in Israelis' interest as well," US Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama told NBC's Meet the Press Sunday on the heels of his Mideast tour.

Democratic presidential hopeful rounds up visit to Israel by praying at holiest Jewish site, meeting with Wall's rabbi. America, he stresses, will continue to look out for Israel's security needs.


"What I've said is that we're going to make sure that the Palestinians have a state that allows them to prosper as long as we also have certainty that Israel's security is not being compromised. I think it's in the interest of both parties, but we are the critical ingredient in terms of making sure that a deal actually gets done," he said.

"I give the Bush administration credit that the Annapolis process has gotten Prime Minister (Ehud) Olmert in Israel and President (Mahmoud) Abbas in the Palestinian territories to have very serious and frank discussions. I think they have moved the ball forward. They may not be able to finish the job. They certainly can't finish it without serious participation by the next administration, and we've got to start early".

According to Obama, if the US can "solve" the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, "then that will make it easier for Arab states and the Gulf States to support us when it comes to issues like Iraq and Afghanistan.

"It will also weaken Iran, which has been using Hamas and Hizbullah as a way to stir up mischief in the region," he said, "if we've gotten an Israeli-Palestinian peace deal, maybe at the same time peeling Syria out of the Iranian orbit, that makes it easier to isolate Iran so that they have a tougher time developing a nuclear weapon."

more
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3573954,00.html

[Divine Discontent]

1. MUSIC TO MY EARS!

thank you, Senator.


More At - - - www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable

[LeftishBrit]

2. Good for him!

I really hope that it happens, and that President Obama plays a constructive role (and of course that there is a President Obama!)

[notfullofit]

4. "he has nothing to offer " Palestinian official

Obama and the Palestinian Question
27/07/2008 By Ali El-Saleh

London, Asharq Al-Awsat- A Palestinian official has described the meeting by Barack Obama, the Democratic Party's presidential candidate, and his meeting with Palestinian President Mahmud Abbas (Abu-Mazin) on last week as very ordinary, adding that Obama did not bring any new ideas but emerged from the meeting happy.

The source, which asked to remain unidentified, told Asharq Al-Awsat, "The man came to listen and was not the bearer of ideas. In any case, he has nothing to offer and he came here to look for what could help his election campaign against Republican candidate John McCain."

The source added that, "Obama told President Abu-Mazin that he came to listen and understand. What he said was no more than just words but he promised to continue the peace process if he won the election." Obama promised Abu-Mazin that he would play the constructive partner's role in the peace process and would not allow a single minute to be lost after being installed president of the United States in backing the peace process and would not go back to square one. Obama hoped to be the messenger heralding peace between Israel and the Palestinians and promised to play this role. Obama did not make any statements to the correspondents and confined himself to meeting the Palestinian president and his Prime Minister Salam Fayyad.

According to the source, Obama's promises to Israel were much better than what he told the Palestinians, among them "Jerusalem is Israel's capital." He visited the Nazi holocaust museum and Sderot town which came under the Palestinian resistance rockets and concluded the visit by visiting the Wailing Wall and meeting representatives of the entire Israeli political spectrum, from the right and the left. Against this, Obama stayed only one hour and some minutes at the presidency and met only Abu-Mazin. According to the source, Abu-Mazins pent most of the time explaining to Obama the situations in the Palestinian territories and touched on the issue of the separation fence and the damages it is causing to the Palestinian people's interests as it takes large tracts of Palestinian agricultural lands. He also talked about the settlements and the damages they are causing to the peace process and underlined the impossibility of continuing the peace process while the settlement activities and expansions continue, stressing that everything would collapse if no active measures were taken and warned of the consequences. He also briefed him on the Arab peace initiative, explained the history of the cause, and informed him of the Palestinian demands. It is recalled that Abu-Mazin's meeting with Obama at the presidency in Ramallah did not end with a joint statement or a press conference as is the norm.

http://www.asharqalawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=1&id=13540

[madeline_con]

45. Wait till January, old man.

[PDJane]

3. Only if Palestinians are paid reparations

the Israeli occupation ends, and Israel is forced back behind the original borders....oh, yeah, and the wall comes down, and they are forced to pay for the pollution they have caused.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hack89]

6. Which borders - 48 or 67? nt

[PDJane]

7. Either...........

but I'd prefer '46. The nine-day war was another land grab; Israel was not threatened.

[hack89]

8. No Israel is your preference?

or did you mean 48 (post independence)?

So the blockade by Egypt of the Strait of Tiran and the massing of Arab armies in 1967 were not threatening to Israel?

[PDJane]

9. 48.......

the land does not belong to Israel. The arab response was in response to severe provocation...and the fight was half-hearted, to say the least.

[Vegasaurus]

10. Which land doesn't?

The land on which Israel is currently presiding, as it has for 60 years?

That land does not belong to them?

Where do you suggest six million people go, since I think you are one that believes all of Israel is an occupation.

[PDJane]

11. sigh...........

we're obviously on opposite sides of the fence.

I am anti-zionist. Israel conquered that land once, was thrown off the land again, and hasn't been in charge for thousands of years. If you are a guest on someone else's land, it behooves you to behave like a guest, instead of a conquering army.

It was very handy of the colonial powers to give someone else's land for a Jewish state, but Palestinians did not create the problem of the Holocaust. They're the ones paying for it, though.

We are watching a brutal takeover that has polluted the sea at Gaza, holds Palestinians captive in their own land, and separates the various bits that have been left to Palestine by Jewish only roads. It is brutal, it is stupid, and the wall is just another vicious land and water grab. Enough already. Either get back behind the 48 borders and compensate the Palestinians who were thrown out of their lands, along with repairing the damage to the land done by overuse of the resources, or learn to live with your neighbours in a larger, single state.

[Sezu]

12. It's amazing you would admit to the bigotry of antizionism

Imagine someone being against the right of an ethnic people to declare their sovereignity. Which other ethnic people would you deny this right? It is it a large list? Does it include Palestinians who wish to have a sovereign state?

[Vegasaurus]

14. As usual, the only ethnic group that is required to return land

captured in war, and the only group NOT allowed to have religious sovereignty in their own country (there can be 22 surrounding MUSLIM countries, but G-d forbid that Jews be allowed to have a JEWISH country, or the "progressives" cry foul), and the only group maligned by the UN more than every other country on earth (including those that practice hideous and horrific human rights abuses) would be

JEWS!

No other reason for these outrageous double standards than disgusting anti-semitism.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

16. Now it's bigotry to oppose a colonialist political system?

Nice try, Sez!

[LeftishBrit]

21. While the Occupation might be described as colonialist...

anti-Zionism means an opposition to the very existence of Israel. I don't see how the existence of Israel is colonialist, any more than the existence of the UK, USA, Iran, Japan, or most places in the world.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

33. Zionism is by definition a colonialist enterprise.

How can you dispute that?

I hate it when we have to pretend that Zionism isn't all about "going back" and displacing the native people from their land.

And with many "going back" to live on illegal settlements, it's still very much an ongoing process.

[LeftishBrit]

35. I do agree about the settlements,

FTR - are there many countries that are NOT colonialist enterprises by your definition (i.e. relating to ultimate origins)? If Britain had not colonized America, there would almost certainly be no 'USA' - but a number of different Native American nations. Or possibly by now something else. Maybe that would be a good thing. But the point is that the USA does currently exist, and is not going to be abolished without massive bloodshed. Same goes for Israel. The Occupation can be ended, and should be - but ending Israel itself would be another matter.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

40. Should Israel be allowed to have slaves today? The US did until 1861!

Your argument, here and in most places, is always designed to minimize Israel's ongoing violent occupation.

Is it impossible for you to look at this situation and just say: this is wrong and it should end. Period?

When have I ever advocated ending Israel itself? Never.

[LeftishBrit]

44. No of course not.

And I have often said that the occupation is wrong and should end.

My argument is NOT to minimize Israel's occupation; it is to argue against the view that it is an 'illegitimate state' that should be ended. And one big problem is that some people do advocate ending Israel altogether.

It's possible to be pro-Israel's existence, but anti-occupation. Indeed, IMO a peaceful solution will have to end the occupation, while at the same time accepting the continued existence of Israel itself. I personally support the division or internationalization of Jerusalem, so long as border security is established by whatever appropriate means (includign international peacekeeping forces if needed). But the details of an agreement have to be established not by me from England, not even by the American president, but by the negotiating parties themselves.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

85. LB, do you see a single reglar here who advocates the end of Israel?

I don't.

I don't think I've ever even heard a single person say, "The state of Israel should be eliminated." Not here and not in real life.

But I don't think I've read read a criticism of Israel that you write, that didn't include, "but look at China!" "Look at the US!" "Look at Zimbabwe."

What I take away from that is that your ultimate concern is protecting Israel from being singled out, even when their deeds deserve singling out.

I know you oppose the occupation, but your greater concern is pretty clearly seeing that Israel not be demonized.

That's all well and good, and understandable, but I don't think the occupation WILL end until enough supporters of Israel make it a higher priority. If the gov'ts of Israel can behave badly and still have people lining up to defend it, why should it change course?

[LeftishBrit]

92. No, but the operative phrase is 'regular here'

I have certainly seen people do so elsewhere on DU, and on the internet in general.

Firstly, someone who advocates the destruction of Israel on the I/P forum will find themselves swimming against the tide, if not in breach of the rules. Secondly, on the whole, it is NOT the pro-Palestinian posters that are most explicitly in favour of the 'demise' of Israel, but the isolationists or conspiracy-theorists who think that Israel is responsible for the war with Iraq and other bad American or world policies. So they tend not to come to this forum.


'I don't think I've read read a criticism of Israel that you write, that didn't include, "but look at China!" "Look at the US!" "Look at Zimbabwe."'

Not true at all. These are not things I say with regard to ALL criticisms of Israel, but with regard to (a) suggestions that Israel is the worst human rights abuser around; (b) with regard to calls for a boycott. Since you advocate boycotting Israel, I probably have made such comments to you on a number of occasions. The context is that I do think that it's unfair for countries to boycott another country when they're doing the same thing or worse.



'your greater concern is pretty clearly seeing that Israel not be demonized.'

No. My concern is seeing that NO country or ethnic group should be demonized. Perhaps, since this is the IP forum, it comes up most commonly with regard to Israel; but I would guess that the highest number of my anti-demonization posts on DU - and certainly one of my biggest issues in real life - concern opposition to demonization of immigrants in the UK. My view is that one cannot fully and sincerely oppose the demonization of any one group, whether it be Israelis, Palestinians, immigrants, Jews, Muslims, you name it, without opposing the demonization of ALL nations, religions and ethnic groups.

There is admittedly one group that I am proud to demonize: the right-wing leaders and propagandists in all nations!

[shira]

36. ignorant.....zionism is a nationalist movement...not colonialist

Zionism is colonialist? Can you make an intelligent case for that prior to 1967? Or would you say this colonialist movmement only started after 1967 - from a war the arabs initiated?

Also, do you believe the West Bank and Gaza should be "Judenrein"? What about Jews who in 1948 were forced out of Hebron, lost their homes there, but still hold the deeds to their properties there?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

39. It is a nationalist movement predicating on colonizing land.

Whether it was Madagascar, Palestine, Argentina, or wherever else Herzl and his crew considered.

The land is central to the political philosophy.

[shira]

87. so explain intelligently how zionism is colonialist

...prior to 1967 how was zionism a somewhat colonialist enterprise?

Can you back your assertion up with evidence or is this yet another emotionally subjective opinion based on nothing more than misguided blind faith?

And do you think 1967 was really Israel's fault and that their objective was to 'steal' and colonize land? Is this why many anti-Israel people want to paint 1967 as Israel's fault, so that Israel can be labeled colonialist or imperialist?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

88. When Europeans, backed by European states, descend upon land inhabited by

indigenous people, with the purpose of displacing them in order to "settle" the land and control the natural resources, I consider that a colonialist enterprise.

That is in fact how Israel came into being. I don't believe that Israel must be destroyed because of this, but I'm always in favor of describing historical events factually, rather than mythologically.

[shira]

89. you don't know your history

Jews were rejected in most or all parts of Europe as aliens - tossed out of England and France throughout history, never accepted as true Europeans - ie, a major cause for the Holocaust. The Exodus ship was turned away from every port. So much for European states backing these European Jews. They had NOWHERE to go to escape Nazi Germany. Do you NOW really think some place in Europe truly backed Jews prior to WW2 and was backing this colonialist movement?

Who backed Jews? Not the British with their white papers.

Do you think the Jews conspired prior to 1917 to usurp Palestine from the Ottoman Empire?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

91. Sadly for you, I know both the history AND the propaganda spouted by

Israel-onlies such as yourself.

I never waste time arguing with propaganda-spouters. It's waste of both our times.

Have a nice day.

[shira]

99. typical......obviously your claim about colonialism is bullshit

How difficult is it for you to make an intelligent case for this mysterious European sponsored Jewish colonialism, if it's indeed factual? Which European countries specifically sponsored Jews colonizing Palestinian land?

Or is this fictional narrative about bogus colonialism more important to you than the actual facts?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

100. Have you heard of a little thing called the Balfour Declaration? nt

[shira]

101. How is the Balfour declaration anything like colonolialism?

A real example of colonialism is France / Algeria. Are you in any way familiar with that situation? If not, maybe wikipedia will help you out.

The short story in French/Algerian colonialism is that you had a country (France) that was motivated economically to exploit the north African Algerians. The settlers sent to Algeria always had a place to go back to (France).

Then there is Israel. Where could Jews go if not Israel? At the time, even the USA wouldn't allow Jews in to escape nazi persecution - much less Europe. Unlike the French, Jews actually BOUGHT land in Israel and cultivated (farmed) it themselves - without exploiting the arabs. In fact, OTHER arabs immigrated into Israel for economical reasons - seeing their standard of living would be better in Israel than the surrounding arab lands.

You have a much better case for colonialism post 1967 war. But no one really argues that Israel turned colonialist only after the 1967 war. And in order to believe 1967 was a colonialist/expansionist enterprise, the anti-Israel crowd has to ignore the fact that the surrounding Arab countries wanted a war that would obliterate Israel. The narrative goes that Israel really was the agressor and took advantage of the poor arabs.

Is it too much to admit there is a just cause for Zionism? Herzl didn't even like the average Jew and if he knew he could assimilate and avoid persecution that way, he would have. But he realized assimilation wouldn't help and after the Dreyfus scandal at the turn of the 20th century, there was really no other option other than immigrating to Israel. The holocaust proves all of Herzl's fears. Assimilation didn't help the Jews of Europe avoid being mass murdered. And Europe (especially England) did nothing to help the Jews out.

If you want to claim the Balfour declaration was a colonialist enterprise, then what of the British white papers that stopped Jewish immigration - while at the same time Arabs were flooding Israel for economic reasons? Before Balfour, Zionism existed - did you know that? The Turkish Ottomans controlled Israel/Palestine at the time. There goes this twisted colonialist theory.

Honestly - it looks like the Israel bashing crowd needs to INVENT reasons to hate Israel. It's easier to hate Israel when Israel is seen as a colonialist/expansionist evil enterprise (Protocols of Zion) rather than a desperate attempt at nationalism - in order to go SOMEWHERE or ANYWHERE Jews would be safe. It looks like this is a MAJOR reason there is so much Holocaust denial in Arab lands. Downplay the threat (pogroms to holocaust) that lead to Zionism and INVENT this garbage about Protocols of Zion and Colonialism in order to demonize Israel and therefore make the arab "resistance" legitimate. Abbas is a holocaust denier and the Protocols are one of the most popular books in Arab lands.

Let's face it, ProgressiveMuslim, your friends in arab lands are threatened more by their arab leaders than any fake, invented bogeyman-jews-are-evil narratives. Had there been no genocidal call to war by the arab nations in 1947-48 (and before) arabs and jews could live peacefully as they do within Israel. Israel would be much smaller (what it was before the 1948 war) and everyone would be benefitting economically.

[Vegasaurus]

102. Strange how people are unable to face the most obvious of truths, isn't it?

Let's hear the Israel haters' response to the White Papers, and to the effort of every Western nation to REFUSE boats of Holocaust survivors or those escaping the war, asylum.

Makes you wonder if these haters would rather all the Jews have been killed. Hey, no one else wanted them anyway, so they needed their safe place, in a land where they had biblical roots and 2000 years of history.

Imagine if at any juncture, when the Arab Palestinians chose war and terrorism, which has increased their misery 100 fold and given them much less land, they had simply agreed to any sharing of the land.

They would certainly have benefited economically from this arrangement, and the prosperity would have made all of their lives so much better.

No national celebration of death and destruction.

No immoral acts of suicide bombing and parents honoring their children who do this.

[bemildred]

103. Here is what Jack Straw thought in 2002:

British Empire blamed for modern conflicts

The UK Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, has blamed Britain's imperial past for many of the modern political problems, including the Arab-Israeli conflict and the Kashmir dispute.

"A lot of the problems we are having to deal with now - I have to deal with now - are a consequence of our colonial past," he said.

---

He said the Balfour Declaration of 1917 - in which Britain pledged support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine - and the contradictory assurances given to Palestinians, were not entirely honourable.

"The Balfour declaration and the contradictory assurances which were being given to Palestinians in private at the same time as they were being given to the Israelis - again, an interesting history for us, but not an honourable one," he said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2481371.stm

My favorite quote about the Balfour Declaration however is this one:

Arthur Koestler wrote that in the letter "one nation solemnly promised to a second nation the country of a third." More than that, the country was still part of the Empire of a fourth, namely Turkey.

[LeftishBrit]

104. It's a pity that Straw didn't apply his anti-imperialist opinions to the present

'"A lot of the problems we are having to deal with now - I have to deal with now - are a consequence of our colonial past," he said.'

So less than six months after making this speech - he followed his masters Tony and Georgie into a disastrous and essentially imperialist attempt to force regime change in Iraq.

I realize that this is a bit of a thread-hijack; but it's hard for a Brit not to perceive a tragic irony here.

[bemildred]

105. Oh, I quite agree.

That sort of blindness to the current application of lessons from the past seems to be common among the political classes, though.

[shira]

106. so how is it that what Jack Straw says....

...proves Israel partcipates in a colonialist or imperialist enterprise? Can we at least agree that what Israel does with respect to the land is not comparable to historical examples of colonialism or imperialism?

[Vegasaurus]

93. Interesting how you don't get a real response to the truth, isn't it?

Why do people think all the Europeans were fawning over Jews, whom they had kicked out of their countries, murdered, put in camps or ghettos, and then systemically refused to allow to emigrate.

THOSE Europeans were the ones who set up the Colonialist Israel?

Who thinks this garbage is truth?

[madeline_con]

46. Didn'y Herzl invent Zionism in the late 1800's?

So, being against it is akin to being against a radical Christian sect of snake handlers, who've gone off the deep end and taken over a small middle Eastern country, isn't it?

[Behind the Aegis]

48. You should get an award for most bizarre justification of anti-Zionism.

It could be called "Propagandist Nonsense for Historical Revisionism". :rofl:

Edit: spelling

[madeline_con]

50. He invented it. To claim it's any more legitimate than 100 other

cults is nonsense.

[Behind the Aegis]

52. To claim it is a cult is fucking nonsense.

It is no more a cult than Palestinian nationalism, or Kurds, or Bosnians, or a host of others. Again, get a dictionary...this time look up "cult" and perhaps you will learn something of value, rather than repeating tired anti-Israeli propaganda.

[madeline_con]

54. He invented it.

Like L. Ron Hubbard.

[Behind the Aegis]

56. Irrelevant.

Zionism is not a "cult." Comparing it to "Scientology" just goes to show you do deserve an award for bizarre propaganda.

[madeline_con]

57. "bizarre propaganda" That's rich, considering your P.O.V.

edited to add:

How is the whole basis of Israel's existence irrelevant in this argument? It's a zionist regime.

[Behind the Aegis]

60. Nothing bizarre about my observations of your nonsense.

The whole basis of Israel's existence is Zionism? Please, get a dictionary and some history books!

[madeline_con]

63. Should I also read the Torah and the bible?

They have a lot to say about it.

[Behind the Aegis]

65. Those are history books in some sense, but I was referring to more reality based ones.

[madeline_con]

67. Like the stuff you read? n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

69. As you have no idea what I have and haven't read, I don't see how you'd know.

This stage is called "avoidance."

[madeline_con]

70. I would think your views were shaped by what you'd read.

Though they could be of the opposite view. I assumed you'd read some anti-Palestinian propaganda.

[Behind the Aegis]

71. Well, it is certain you are more than acquainted with anti-Israeli propaganda.

I have read a number of things, pro-Israeli, pro-Palestinian, anti-Israeli, and anti-Palestinian; some propaganda, some just simple facts.

[madeline_con]

73. I certainly hope all I read does not turn out to be lies.

I'll be incensed with those darned Palestinians if that's the case!

[Behind the Aegis]

75. Or maybe you will find those damn Israelis aren't all evil. That would be horrific!

[madeline_con]

78. I'm sure that all Israelis are not evil.

I know I disagree with those governing them. Since they're elected oficials, most Israelis must agree with their actions. That's too bad.

[Behind the Aegis]

79. So most Americans must agree with Bush by your "logic?"

[madeline_con]

81. By yours, the Israeli elections were stolen, as well?

edited:
I have to go lie down. my head hurts from being chased in circles. Have a good day/night, whatever it is on your end.:hi:

[Behind the Aegis]

83. Stolen or not, look at approval ratings.

The only circles are the ones you have created. Though made of straw, they still form circles. Perhaps you should pop over to the 9-11 forum and they can help you formulate a "rational" (:rofl:) explanation of your "crop circles."

[LeftishBrit]

84. The American ones could be stolen because they were very close.

If there had been an overwhelming majority for the Democrats, Florida wouldn't have mattered.

Israel's elections are also generally close. Israel almost never has a single-party government with an absolute majority.

And American popular support for the Iraq war was pretty high at the beginning according to polls.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PDJane]

15. No, I'm not.

But I would point out that Zionism has something to do with those actions.....and that Israel has been perpetrating terrorist acts for at least that long.

Do not talk to me about double standards or bigotry or hatred. I don't hate my own people....I hate what they are doing, which is against all laws of the land and of men.

[Vegasaurus]

19. Oh? Jews were murdering Arabs in the early 20th century?

kicking them out, persecuting them or treating them as dhimmi?

Arabs have been doing that to Jews long before there was a state of Israel and long before any occupation.

[Behind the Aegis]

18. What a sadly pathetic post.

So many things wrong with it, it becomes difficult to know where even to begin and end.

They are not "guests", they are Israel. Get over it.

The Palestinians didn't create the misery of the Holocaust, you got one right, but they aren't the only ones paying for it...the Israelis pay for it every single day.

Jewish only roads? WRONG! Just another ignorant talking point bantered about as if it were true.

The pollution thing is a hoot! Israel is the only one with access to the sea at Gaza? Wow, you anti-Zionist found yet one more thing to lay at the feet of Israel, the great evil...er...Little Satan.

I love how you solve the whole conflict with the Palestinians not having to do one single thing, only the Israelis. This is typical of anti-Israelis.

[LeftishBrit]

20. Do you consider that you and your fellow-Canadians are 'guests' on the Native Americans' and Inuit

land?

Most countries probably 'shouldn't have existed' if we look at their past in detail. Including the UK, definitely. But they do exist, and they're not going anywhere without major war, violence and ethnic cleansing. This is generally accepted for most countries. Why should Israel be the exception?

'Palestinians did not create the problem of the Holocaust'

No, but the desire for a Jewish homeland wasn't just because of the Holocaust - though that made it more urgent. In fact, the Balfour Declaration preceded the Holocaust by a couple of decades. Jews were subjected to antisemitism and discrimination virtually everywhere, including Europaean *and* Arab countries.

I think that the Palestinians are paying a higher price than they should; and they should have a state - but this should be alongside a Jewish one, not instead of one.

'Either get back behind the 48 borders and compensate the Palestinians who were thrown out of their lands, along with repairing the damage to the land done by overuse of the resources, or learn to live with your neighbours in a larger, single state.'

Do you actually mean the '48 borders, or the '67 ones? I would actually support a return to something like the '67 borders. But up till '48, the whole area was part of the British Empire. Do you actually want a return to that?? As far as 'learning to live with your neighbours in a larger single state' - that would require some 'learning to co-exist' on BOTH sides, and neither side in fact wants a single-state.

[Vegasaurus]

22. I find the lack of historical knowledge astonishing

there are still people posting here who believe that Israel was created as the result of the Holocaust.

Astonishing, don't you think?

[LeftishBrit]

23. I never find any historical or geographical confusions astonishing any more

I've probably mentioned the English person who asked my Japanese friend whether Japan belongs to Hong Kong!

And for that matter, McCain, when addressing the Tories in the UK, expressed his desire to 'spread Republicanism around the globe' (in the UK, 'Republican' means either 'pro-IRA' or 'anti-monarchy' - neither of which is a cause dear to the hearts of most Tories!)

To be fair, I'm pretty ignorant about some parts of the world.

[shira]

37. ignorant

Zionism started in the 19th century. Everyone who knows anything knows that the French Dreyfus affair made Herzl realize that Jews were safe nowhere at that time - including western society. The story of the ww2 boat Exodus being turned away at every port (including America) goes to show Herzl was somewhat prophetic. It's a shame Jews were not allowed to escape Nazi Germany due to the British White papers.

Interesting sidenote - if Jewish immigration wasn't severely limited for 30 years prior to Israel's founding, and Arab immigration was instead limited, then Jews would have constituted the majority in Israel over Arabs. According to the anti-Israel crowd, that majority would imply that Jews could rightfully rule within their borders.

ps
No arabs would have ever been displaced had a Palestinian state been accepted in 1937 or 1948. But hey - these are facts and some here would rather believe in libelous myths and al-Dura hoaxes instead. They read this in their trusted media that continues to cover up al-Dura.

[madeline_con]

47. Well then, that makes it o.k!

[LeftishBrit]

49. Makes what OK?

[madeline_con]

51. uprooting indigenous people (Arabs) upon arrivel, because

it's been done before!

[LeftishBrit]

53. My point is that whether the things done in a country's establishment were OK or not..

and most usually they weren't, one cannot NOW reverse them by abolishing the country concerned. At least, not without war and massive bloodshed.

Even if someone opposes the original establishment of Israel or America or Britain, this isn't 1948, or the 17th or 18th century, or 1066, etc., etc. One has to do one's best with what we have NOW. I support ending the occupation, but not destroying Israel - or any country.

[madeline_con]

55. There already IS war an massive bloodshed.

Palestinian staehood would be a good start to getting peace.

[LeftishBrit]

58. I agree with that!

I support two states living side by side - not the status quo, and not the total destruction of Israel.

[madeline_con]

59. I think the Palestinians believe, and rightly so...

that some in the israeli gov. will tolerate no less than complete eradication of their people.

[Behind the Aegis]

61. And, some Israelis believe, and rightly so....

"that some in the palestinian gov. will tolerate no less than complete eradication of their people."

[madeline_con]

62. At last we agree!

The ill treatment of innocents does not help the Israeli cause, though. Oh, that's right, all the things documented and filmed are just propaganda.

[Behind the Aegis]

64. And, the ill treatment of Israelis, notably Jews, doesn't help the Palestinian cause.

Oh, that's right, all those suicide bombings are just freedom fighters in action (see, I can make my own strawmen too. Thanks for providing the straw.).

[madeline_con]

66. And those darn kids throwing rocks at tanks! n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

68. And those damn disco-dwelling, pizza munching, bus riding folks!

[madeline_con]

72. Let me get this straight.

Are you equating adult suicide bombers who kill civilians to children who throw rocks at tanks? Even adults who trhow rocks at tanks cannot be lumped in the same group. That's like me saying I hate all Jews because of the hard line actions of the Israeli government! Hunting terrorists should be a police action, not a collective punishment doled out by the military.

[Behind the Aegis]

74. Let you get this queerly....

You are the one equating rock-throwers with innocents. See, I responded to your post with a variation of the same thing:

Behind the Aegis (1000+ posts) Wed Jul-30-08 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #82
86. And, the ill treatment of Israelis, notably Jews, doesn't help the Palestinian cause.
Oh, that's right, all those suicide bombings are just freedom fighters in action (see, I can make my own strawmen too. Thanks for providing the straw.).

To which you made the comment about rock-throwing children. I replied with the post to which you have responded. You equated the ill-treatment of Israelis by Palestinians as if to be limited to rock throwers. I followed with a comment of those murdered by suicide bombers based on their locale of murder. In short, no, I am not equating suicide bombers to children who throw rocks at tanks.

[madeline_con]

76. You wrote...

"And those damn disco-dwelling, pizza munching, bus riding folks!"

I know that innocent civilians are killed. Does that mean it's o.k. for the Israeli military to retaliate against innocent Palestinian civilians, like rock throwers who target tanks?

Are you pretending not to know what I'm saying, or are you really not getting this?

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madeline_con]

80. Battery? On a tank! ?

:wtf:

[Behind the Aegis]

82. Battery on those in the tanks.

I have already said, but considering some of the people here I will repeat myself, I do not agree with the use of live ammunition on those throwing rocks. That said, how do you compare innocents with those who are actively attacking Israel?

[madeline_con]

96. If you're in a tank, you won't be hit by rocks.

I suppose you'll find a dictionary entry to refute that?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

41. Amen.

[Behind the Aegis]

17. So you favor the destruction of Israel?

How is the destruction of a current nation progressive?

[PDJane]

24. That nation has been alive barely longer than I have.

It was a mistake. Yes, I consider myself a squatter on Native American lands. Am I going to head back to Wales? No. But I am trying to live lightly on the earth and am agitating for the government to treat the native population as part of the population. We have apologized for the treatment of natives, and need a truth and reconciliation committee.

I don't advocate the total removal of Israel. I do advocate the removal behind the 1948 borders; if the Israelis cannot or will not live with their neighbours, they need to put themselves behind the original walls.

The people who have no grasp of history are those who are defending Israel's right to "biblical" lands. Yes, they stole that land the first time around, too.

No, the six day war wasn't plucky Israel fighting the entire arab world. Plucky Israel had more weaponry in that war, and a standing army; they provoked Egypt to retaliate, which Egypt did. However, Egypt was, at the time, engaged in it's own colonial enterprise elsewhere, and did not spare much for a losing battle. That is the story, and now, of course, you and your government will accuse me of being anti-semitic and beyond the pale and all of those things. It's insane, but it will manage to keep the myth alive.

I would like to point out that the settlers are paid to be where they are by the Israeli government; a lot of that money comes from the American taxpayer. More money, in fact, than is given to any other nation in the world. B'tselem has given out video cameras to the Palestinians. Since the project started, cameras have caught:

A group of young settler males lyching an elderly Palestian couple and a relative. This was considered an "unusual incident" by the Israeli powers-that-be. That's not the tale the Palestinians tell; the list of outrages in that area include regular beatings and a poisoning of the cistern that killed livestock.

IDF forces and settlers beating Palestinians. Too many incidences to count.

IDF forces arresting school children and dragging them away for who-knows-what reason; it wasn't clear.

Point blank shootings with rubber bullets, including one severely injured young man.

Harassment of journalists is common. IDF forces asking Palestinian visitors to strip, including grandmothers and at least one disabled journalist, who was refused access to a washroom or her luggage to get sanitary protection.

How is that kind of action progressive? It isn't even legal. The Israeli wall has been declared illegal under international law. Constant land grabs have been declared illegal under international law. The Arab population inside Israel is considered a second-class nuisance, and the legal framework is there to support it.

ISRAEL IS NOT AN INNOCENT.

[hack89]

27. You need to brush up on the Six Day War

I have seen revisionist history before but you take the cake.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

[PDJane]

30. No. I don't. But you need to read something wider

Than the official stance. I suggest you start with John Pilger. I also suggest you read the report on the conflict from the Dutch Observer. That was not the way it was portrayed.

[hack89]

34. Ok nt

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

86. OMFG! And there I was believing John Pilger all this time!!

Yep, I believed what he wrote about racism and genocide in Australia. I had no idea he was a propagandist and should be dismissed out of hand! Listen, could you check with yr totally propaganda free mates over at PMW or Arutz Sheva and find out if they approve of Keith Windshuttle and see if they give the tick of approval to his theory that the likes of John Pilger who talk about the genocide and mistreatment of Aboriginals are just whinyarse treehugging lefty propagandists? I think he even likes to overuse the word hoax, so I'm guessing you and them will really like Windshuttle!

Now I must rush off and write a letter to the PM demanding he retract the official apology to the indigenous people and gently break the news to him that he was a victim of Pilger indoctrination! ;)

[shira]

98. then please learn something about Pilger......he is terrible

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=6&x_journo=325

I know you probably hate CAMERA, so here's what I propose:

You try to find any dirt you can on CAMERA while I present to you proof of Pilger's propaganda. If you're game, and I hope you are, we'll see whose sources are truly biased and based on propaganda or half-truths. We'll see if your claims against CAMERA and all other pro-Israeli sources are based on evidence or blind faith and emotion.

Here's your big chance!

Now for Pilger and CAMERA - please look specifically at the article on his film "PALESTINE IS STILL THE ISSUE". The video is available on youtube here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1259454859593416473

If you've never seen the film, you should. I'm watching it and am about to compare it to CAMERA's review of it. Let me know what you find objectionable about CAMERA's critique or let me know what you really think about this film - if you like it, think it's reasonably accurate or honest,....

So how about it? Let's really see who is deluding themselves. Let's see whose sources are nothing but biased or racist swill.

[shira]

107. still waiting for your response on Pilger WRT his views on Israel

Pilger may be reliable on Australian history, but with respect to Israel - he's a proven propagandist. I've provided you the information. If you disagree, please explain.

[Violet_Crumble]

108. I said all that was needed to be said...

Most people would have gotten the point. You didn't...

btw, still waiting for you to explain what criticism of Israel you do find acceptable. Lucky I'm not holding my breath...

[Sezu]

25. Well, it isn't unless one is a member of the far

wacko left which is so close to the far wacko right as to be indistinguisable. Simply two crazies standing back to back; the ever belligerant red-brown alliance.

[PDJane]

26. I love the way that the pro-Zionist bunch

put words in everyone's mouth. That isn't what I said, and it's not what I meant. If you are given a portion of something that wasn't yours, it is polite to leave a slice for the rest of gathering......

[notfullofit]

28. And what you do with

the slice you are given will decide on whether or not you get a bigger slice.

[Vegasaurus]

31. In this case, the guest took less than their allotted slice

and the "host", so it were (pretty nasty host, actually, very unhospitable), thought their piece wasn't big enough so decided to start a bunch of wars over it.

And now their slice is smaller than ever, but it could have been twice that size.

Sometimes greedy children get less than they deserve.

It's a pity.

[PDJane]

32. You people really need to get out more.........

And read something besides propaganda.

Israel has been taking more than their fair share since they plopped themselves down in a land that they had very little claim to, and which someone else had been living in for 2,000 years.

Israel is not entitled to anything more than they were given. The land was not empty, and has never been empty; not since the beginning. Not since man became man. That's a religious myth that has nothing to do with reality.

[Sezu]

90. Plopped themselves down??????? And you have the nerve to

advise others to do more reading?

[Vegasaurus]

94. Really, your lack of understanding of the history of this conflict is simply mind boggling

Please do some reading, and not just from the Hamas charter, and come back to us.

"Plopped down"?

Do you really understand or know anything about Jewish immigration or their lives in Palestine prior to the state of Israel?

Buy a clue. Or two.

[LeftishBrit]

95. 'Plopped themselves down'? What about the Middle Eastern Jews?

I want to see an end of the Occupation and a Palestinian state; but that doesn't mean that all Jews in the region are Europaeans who 'plopped themselves' there, which is what you seem to be implying.

[Sezu]

97. Thankfully one does not hear that kind of rubbish too

often here, but, once is more than enough for me.

[azurnoir]

43. self delete n/t

[number6]

29. I favor the 1947 UN partition.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story580.html

and thats bending over backwards for Israel

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story448.html