Abbas vows to dismantle PA if Israel frees Hamas prisoners for Shalit

[Behind the Aegis]

If Israel releases Hamas members of the Palestinian parliament as part of a deal for the return of kidnapped soldier Gilad Shalit, PA President Mahmoud Abbas will dismantle the Palestinian Authority, Abbas warned Israel last week.

Abbas sent the warning to GOC Central Command Maj. Gen. Gadi Shamni via Hussein al-Sheikh, head of the PA's civil affairs department, who is responsible for coordinating with Israel on anything involving the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Al-Sheikh, who told Shamni that this was a "personal message" from Abbas, stressed that the Palestinian leader did not speak merely of "resigning," but of "dismantling the PA."

Israel arrested dozens of Hamas politicians, including ministers and parliament members, shortly after Hamas kidnapped Shalit on June 25, 2006. Many have since been released by order of a military court, but about 40 remain in Israeli jails.

The message from Abbas was highly unusual, since publicly, he tries to portray himself as the leader of all the Palestinians - for instance, by repeatedly demanding that Israel release all its Palestinian prisoners.

However, after Hamas seized control of Gaza in June 2007, Abbas dismantled the Fatah-Hamas unity government and began waging a political and military battle against Hamas in the West Bank.

more...

[madeline_con]

1. "Hamas kidnapped Shalit "?

How is taking an IDF soldier as a P.O.W. a kidnapping?

[Behind the Aegis]

2. Some help...

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) -
kid·nap Audio Help /ˈkɪdnæp/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -napped or -naped, -nap·ping or -nap·ing. to steal, carry off, or abduct by force or fraud, esp. for use as a hostage or to extract ransom.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/kidnapping

Article 4

A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

(c) That of carrying arms openly;

(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.

4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.

5. Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.

6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

Therefore, a POW can be "kidnapped." Of course, Hamas is guilty of war crimes according to the UN, though nothing has been done about that situation.

[madeline_con]

3. This is a war, declared or not.

The Israelis can't expect there to be no (cough) "kidnappings"!

Nor has anything been done about Israel's hundreds of violations of human rights, international law and Geneva conventions.

[Behind the Aegis]

4. So what?

I simply showed how Shalit was kidnapped, which was your question. I said nothing of what Israelis should/shouldn't expect. Hamas is guilty of war crimes in this case.

Edit to correct spelling

[Violet_Crumble]

5. Sorry, but the soldier wasn't kidnapped - he was captured...

He was a combatant. Kidnapping applies to non-combatants like civilians or even politicians, but not to armed combatants. Where the problem arises is that he hasn't been treated as a POW by Hamas, and the Red Cross should have regular access to him, but this is something Israel also falls short on when it comes to its treatment of Palestinian combatants it captures...

[Behind the Aegis]

6. Kidnapping is kidnapping. There is nothing in the definition that disqualifies what happened.

You know this. It is simply word parsing, nothing more.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

11. That's utter bullshit. Soliders on duty are captured, not kidnapped.

Were the Lebanese prisoners recently released "kidnapped?"

[Behind the Aegis]

13. Read.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

16. Take your head out of that giant bowl of propaganda pudding.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

21. READ: "CAPTURE"

cap·ture Audio Help /ˈkæptʃər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -tured, -tur·ing, noun
–verb (used with object) 1. to take by force or stratagem; take prisoner; seize: The police captured the burglar.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/%20capture

[Behind the Aegis]

37. Never debated he was captured.

"Kidnapped" can also be used. Read.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

39. So long as you apply the word to the thousands that Israel holds in captivity. nt

[Behind the Aegis]

40. It doesn't apply to all of them, but then you know that. n/t

[ProgressiveMuslim]

49. Read.

[Violet_Crumble]

46. Anyone could use that dictionary definition to label just about anything kidnapping...

Carrying someone off by force? Then there's a lot of parents who are kidnappers coz when the kids are little they sometimes have to be carried off by force to go places they don't want to go. Plenty of POWs on both sides were captured, not kidnapped, during WWII, and some link to an online dictionary isn't going to change the fact that just like Gilat, they were combatants who were captured y the enemy.

Kidnapping is a word that's associated with a criminal act, and there's nothing illegal about the capture of an enemy soldier. That's why international law calls it capture, not kidnapping. What is illegal, however, is what the captured combatant is used for after their capture, and that's covered in the Third Geneva Convention. Using POWs as objects of public curiousity (the US violated that rule with its treatment of Iraqi POWs) is among the many things that are illegal, as is holding a captured soldier as a hostage. Their capture signfies the end of their being a combatant, which is why they're afforded a high level of protection under international law...

[ProgressiveMuslim]

7. Well, well, well.. isn't that just putting Israel's face to the fire?

I guess when you only deal with the militants, you'll end up with the militants...

Very interesting development.

At last, Abbas shows some spunk!

[bemildred]

20. Nah, the real question is whether anybody is threatened by this "threat". nt

[ProgressiveMuslim]

28. Well it certainly takes away Israel's power to play the ongoing shell game.

And that changes the rules of engagement.

[bemildred]

33. That is true.

It seems kind of a moot point to me, Fatah is not a vibrant political entity anymore. Arafat is dead, and Abbas is no Arafat. But that just means it's usefulness is gone. Barghouti might fill those shoes, or not. He can only wait.

Meanwhile it would be a mistake to think that efforts will not be made to create or suborn a new stooge. One can almost predict an effort to corrupt Hamas and Hezbollah at this point.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

34. LOL! I don't see that in the cards quite yet!

[bemildred]

35. Well, maybe I should have said "renewed effort". nt

[BioDan]

8. Very unusual

It seems to stress that the PA is more opposed to Hamas than to Israel at the moment.

[Vegasaurus]

9. Interesting, but not a good development

the two factions need unity very badly, unless the intention is to have three states and not two.

[LeftishBrit]

10. Agreed. And three states really aren't a practical possibility.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

12. I think this message is intended as a wake-up call to the West:

"We are following the moderate path proscribed for us by the Western powers, yet our militant brethren in Gaza are the ones who are able to achieve valuable deliverables? What's the point of following the roadmap?"

Hopefully Abbas et al will realize that the roadmap as laid out by the Quarter really does lead nowhere, and begin to mend fences with Hamas for the sake of national unity.

[pelsar]

14. the wake up call is for the Palestinians......

the fence at beilin was moved only because of the relatively peaceful protest....their lives will improve somewhat...Hamas on the other hand has succeeded in lowering the standard of living, injecting fear in to the residents not to mention religion etc......

Its up to the PA and the real supporters of the Palestinians (those that arent just using them) to play up the results of peaceful demonstrations vs violence.....

the moving of the wall...kinda ruins the "israelis only understand force" theory doesnt it?...we'll have to remember this event wont we?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

15. Pelsar, I know it's impossible for you to get this,

but once Israel traded those prisoners with Hezbollah, there is no going back. Do you seriously deny that the message came across loud and clear? Israel deals with players. Hezbollah is a player. Hamas is a player. Fatah is a joke. And this, of course, is Israel's creation! If they had dealt fairly with the PA from day one, and made a serious and sustained effort for peace, instead of ongoing settlement expansion, the facts on the ground would look very different today. (I grant you that corrupt Arafat was only too obliging in the selling Palestinian interests up the river.)

Palestinians aren't interested in some sort of half-life. Moving the apartheid wall X number of feet -- while a victory for landowners in Beilin -- is not any great thing to celebrate. So.. the jailers, for once, acted like human beings... Let's have a parade!

FREEDOM! That's the goal... not an extra 10 feet of space in the pen.

[pelsar]

17. oh i get it...

trading for the bodies was a mistake....and yes there is going back..it will be a lot bloodier next time thats all......what you dont get it..the violence only provides short term victories and incredible losses to the Palestinians......

even gaza has turned into a net loss... "independence", or whatever its shape in gaza is nothing more that living under a theocratic dictatorship complete with roving moral squads....perhaps thats your definition of freedom....as long as the guards/torturers speak arabic...i think its a loss, and it was accomplished via violence....perhaps to you thats not a "half life".....i think it is.

and if hamas gets the westbank..which they will unless abbas gets more support, however pathetic he is.....your avg joe Palestinian will simply get a new longer occupation that no one will even give a shit about...hamasistan....why do i get the feeling that if hamas takes over you wont be 'visiting".....is that the 'freedom" your talking about?

[Sezu]

18. There is a lot of magical thinking going on about this

exchange. It partners with such hits as the "divine victory."

[ProgressiveMuslim]

19. Here's the thing we never, ever, ever, ever talk about here.

How does a successful revolution go?

What is truly required?

A 50+ year battle and a 40+ year occupation have indeed broken the backs of moderates in the region. The only groups with the strength and determination to stand strong -- as a group -- are the fundamentalists. The people who are left are basically livign on fumes... and by the grace of God. Do they turn to God in Gaza? You're right they do because you have taken every fucking thing from them.

Does that really surprise anyone? So you're going to fuck the victims for 50 years, and then criticize them for not having the strength to have sustained it your onslaught in the way Western powers deem most appropriate? American democracy is on the brink after one assault, for Christ's sake!

Israeli CITIZENS -- with every power and privilege, money, education -- can't even bring about change in your gov't -- you seriously expect Palestinians to be able to work the magic of peace with them???

There is no "right way" for them. They are damned no matter what they do. They have jumped through every hoop and then some, and there is always some new demand, some new provocation.

I cursed Hamas on the day of the first bus bombing in 1995, but in retrospect, it seems like they had the correct analysis of Israeli intentions all along.

TPTB in Israel have never wanted a partner for peace. They have done everything in their power to ensure that a moderate party committed to the rule of law would be relegated to the sidelines, beginning with the sidelining of the Unified leaders in 1988, including its funding of Hamas in the 80s. Israel wants land. Israel may get the land, but it won't come cheap.

And for what it's worth, we already can't visit. I have heard Jewish friends and colleagues talk about their family members in israel for a month... on a birthright trip... just visiting for fun. Meanwhile, the peopel who were born there are refused entry, or if by the grace of God they get in, face the reality that they won't be able to leave. So spare me.. we're already unable to visit. Any Jewish person in the world can show up anytime to live, though. Sweet, huh?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

25. And I haven't even brought up the body count today in Beilin...

[pelsar]

44. you giving the Palestinians too much leeway....

your excusing them for their own violence methods and your ignoring the cost to themselves in turns of a violent society....(i assume i dont have to mention the internal battles .....). You wrote there is no "right 'way"....of course their is....the path that straddles pressure on israel without internal destruction. I'm not talking about any kind of "high moral road"...i talking about a balancing act of what works without screwing themselves.

the bus bombings worked...sort of. It led to gaza, and the wall and the PAs eventual destruction (I'm predicting here). It was not, nor is it Israels job to deal with the PA's politicians beyond what affects israel, thats how it works...and even so, israel, nor does any country really know what they're doing when it comes to intl politics and meddling in someones elses backyard...like you wrote israel can barely affect change in its own govt. Like all societies the Palestinians and their supporters have to "grow up" and face the most fundamental fact of any successful society:

that they are responsible for their own politicians and their decisions.....thats the way it goes. Blaming someone else for your decisions is what dictatorships do to deflect the blame as well as little children. Isnt lesson no. one to our kids: take responsibility for your actions? (or do you tell them to blame the teacher, blame the bully ?). Yet for the Palestinians you give them a pass. If you cant get over that, then nothing will change. Of course the Irony is that Hamas doesnt see it that way. They in fact actually accept their situation, take responsibility and in fact not crying about it and are doing something about it: taxing the tunnel smugglers for one.

Israel doesnt have to want a "partner"....Its the Palestinians jobs to force the issue as they did in Intifada I, and keep it up in a way that gets them what they want..blowing up busses turned out to be a dumb idea....unless of course, like i wrote, ones definition of hamasitan is freedom because the jailers speak arabic.

Hamas, Hizballa are winning amongst the Palestinians etc because of one major concept: they take responsibility not just for their actions but for the consequences as well. The PA and Lebanon would do well to learn that lesson. (israel did when shas started gaining too much power and the policies changed to cut it out from under them...)

and the body count in Be'elin... dont forget to count the israelis wounded (eyes lost etc) from the non violence...fact is, it did work. Like the kassams (how did you describe them-a nuisance?),i realize you have to belittle the non violent victory precisely because it worked and ruins your whole thesis......

[ProgressiveMuslim]

50. Again: Israeli CITIZENS -- with every power and privilege, money, education -- can't even bring

about change in your gov't.

The United States is unable to exert influence over Israel. Not really.

Are we surprised that Palestinians haven't been more successful at "peacemaking?"

It's actually kind of funny when you think about it.

[pelsar]

52. change?....read and weep....

Israel:

made a country with socialisti/communistic values....over time, for good or bad, changed to a more capitalistic system.

has changed the rules of entering the knesset several times as it attempts to reduce the influence of the smaller parties and has succeeded.

4 women started a movement that eventually caused a withdrawl from lebanon.

a rightwing prime minister returned the sinai to Egypt in return for a peace treaty
________

intifada i caused a major policy shift in the israeli govt, brought about from pressure from the people
------including giving territory to the PA leadership, and their recognition

intifada II cause a major policy shift in the israeli govt brought about from pressure form the people
-----including jenin, check posts and eventually the wall

failed lebanon II caused the dismissal of the Minister of Defense, chief of staff and many others.....and aided in the dumping of the present PM
_____

change in our govt?....all the time...and its done within the rules of democracy. There is no withdrawal from the westbank for obvious reasons...and there is ZERO pressure on the govt to do so....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

54. Why can't the citizenry put a stop to the illegal settlements? nt

[pelsar]

58. why would we?...

so we can risk having kassams on our cities?...... seriously give me one real reason that the israeli govt or its people should risk the safety of its citizens to provide for the Palestinians?

The israeli people after oslo, lebanon and gaza have absolutely no confidence whatsoever that any withdrawal will bring anything BUT kassams, katushas, mortars, etc on our cities....(and unlike gaza the westbank kassams mortars means not just the govt but the intl airport etc will be under fire)

change will come, pressure on the israeli govt when there is a reason to....any moral values on walls and checkpoints etc have to be weighed against the preservation of lsraeli lives. (intifda II and gaza....)

guess which one "wins".....
___

imagine for a second...israel withdraws and soon a couple of kassams land on the intl airport.....(by some psudo hamas/al quida group)....at that point all hell will break lose and israel will have to retake the westbank at the cost of 1,000 of lives if not more....do you really think given the political situation with Abbas and hamas that the israeli citizens would even consider such a thing?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

59. I didn't even say withdraw. I am talking about simply stopping EXPANSION of illegal settlements.

You don't believe this is a HUGE obstacle to peace?

Everyone in the world agrees that this is so, yet no party is able to force the gov'ts of Israel to stop this practice.

Yet the beleaguered Palestinians are supposed to hold the magic key to unlock peace?

I think not.

[pelsar]

67. stopping the settlement growth.....

your turn...give me one tangible thing that stopping settlement growth would bring to citizen israeli Bear in mind, that same citizen put pressure on the govt to leave lebanon, to leave gaza

spare me the "its the right thing to do"...do you really think israel will receive "compliments?"...more likly as in gaza and lebanon it wont be good enough and without even doing anything in return to provide some form of confidence in that move from the PA, there will be additional pressure from outside.

and from an internal political point of view, the politicians who push it, will only have a "lose lose" situation on their hands.....assuming the PA does nothing in return - btw im not arguing fair, or just, etc, just the reality on the ground and politicians who watch their backside and citizen who only get mobilized when there is something in it for them....peace being one of them, but this wont do it

i ask again, what would be the tangible "reward" for such a move?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

68. Does Israel need "tangible benefits" in order to stop violating international law?

The shining progressive democracy of the Middle East??

Thunk.

[pelsar]

70. so now your promoting Intl law?

you've got to be kidding?....i cant recall a single post of yours that hints at the fact that hamas, hizballa etc are in constant violation of intl law and must stop their violations immediately.... or perhaps you believe that intl law is not for everyone?..... If you want to call israel to abide by intl law, then i think the absolute minimum is for you to apply such values across the board and include the PA/hamas etc to follow through.

but lets for move on beyond that since i do believe israel belonging to the western nations should abide by the western values. And this "intl" law it seems is violated by every western nation involved in a violent conflict...show me a conflict and i'll find a nice list of violations, meaning the "intl law" is not always applicable and can be argued either way...so i wonder just how much of the "intl" law is grounded in reality.

but that isnt the real point anyway.....intl law realistically is no more than a set of guidelines for western states to follow (arab/africa states seem to use a different value system). Every country on the face of the earth balances its intl relations with its internal politics..and measures the gain and loss. The settlements are no different.....

stopping the growth (actually i have no idea how much these days given the low market value of the homes out there and the political situation), does what?...will it make the Palestinians stop attacking? give abbas more power?...what exactly would it do? (besides causing some internal political trouble that no one in the govt wants to deal with). The answer is nothing.....just a net loss for israeli politicians. Give them a tangible reason to believe in (as in gaza/lebanon/sinai) and it happens.
___

btw one discussion which has never come up is hamas...if and when they take over the westbank....what then? personally i think they're going to make lives hell for the citizens..as in a mini iran or taliban-whats your take?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

71. Nice way to evade the question.

Gaza is not a mini-Iran or a mini Taliban state.

I trust you don't equate all Muslims with the Taliban?

Sorry to disappoint you.

[Vegasaurus]

55. My friends can't visit their former homes in Egypt or Iraq either

And were they compensated for their stolen land and homes?

Of course not.

850,000 Jews lost their homes in 10 Arab countries.

I will care more about the Palestinians "right of return" when there is an iota of interest in Jews who lost their land, homes and are refused entry into these countries.

Notice that "progressives" seem not to care about this issue.

[BioDan]

22. That deal

Yeah, Hezbollah gets back a few men and a few hundred bodies, but at the cost of 1000+ lives lost in gaining the bargaining chips, not to mention the damaged infrastructure. One step forward, ten steps back.

[bemildred]

23. Do you really think Hezbollah is not happy with this "deal"?

With the course of events these last few years? You can think that if you want, I just want to know if that is really what you think.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

27. Bemildred, how do you make sense of this kind of thinking?

I understand that liberal Dems hold certain values. I do too. It's the inability to understand or eveb grasp how or why other people think differently that boggles the mind.

[bemildred]

32. Well, "make sense" is an opinion.

Self-confirming self-referential thought systems always "make sense". This is as true of Islamic fundies and of Jewish or Zionist fundies, or Amurkin Xtian fundies, or any other kind of fundies, who all appear to me to be much of a stripe, although not always having the same means available to them. The goal is a pseudo-certain description of the world, a false but comforting sense of knowing what is really going on.

The truth is that the world will go on whether we understand it or not, this is an observable fact, and we will not suffer any particular hardship BECAUSE we ignore these fatuous belief systems, this is also an observable fact, as long as we are circumspect in our social presentation.

Logic and reason are all very well, but they only give you in results and theorems and conclusions what you first put in as postulates and axioms and assumptions. All the real action is in what your assumptions ought to be.

People who begin from incompatible (not to mention inconsistent) postulates, will be able to arrive at completely incomprehensible conclusions.

The only REAL test is the course of events.

[BioDan]

29. I think they are happy

But I also think that they aren't rational people. It is a 'cut off your nose to spite your face' situation for them.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

31. You think that these millions of people lack rationality?

I think they are eminently rational. Israel occupied South Lebanon. They formed a movement that kicked their asses right back out. The Shiites in Lebanon now have their interests well represented.

What could you possibly see as irrational in that?

[Sezu]

36. We get it, we get it. "In retrospect, "you approve of terrorism. Your

words are quite clear.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

38. ?? What are you talking about? Is this a mis-post? nt

[Sezu]

41. Did you not say

"I cursed Hamas on the day of the first bus bombing in 1995, but in retrospect, it seems like they had the correct analysis of Israeli intentions all along.

Have I misinterpreted this when I say it appears you have changed your mind about Hamas' terrorist activities (bus bombing) and now feel they were on the right path all along?

[bemildred]

42. She was saying that Hamas was correct in thinking that Israelis only respect force.

That is not approval (edit: of violence).

[pelsar]

43. except pm is wrong

the wall in Be'il was moved because of the "non violent protests"....in fact had their been real attacks the wall would have been finished sooner there.

Egypt and Jordan also proved PM wrong. The facts/history show that countries including israel react to different types of pressure, to say israel only respects force is simplistic at best....and serves to reenforce ones views.....

[Violet_Crumble]

48. Peace with Egypt only happened through force...

Sadat had been making overtures to Golda Meir which were summarily dismissed. The US refused to get involved as a mediator unless it became a crisis, so Sadat went to war to obtain peace with Israel, and through it peace with the US. The end result was that agreements emerged which were similar to or even more far-reaching than those Golda Meir had dismissed only a few years before....

[pelsar]

53. but it was begin who agreed...

not only that Sadat said publicly he wanted peace. It may have very well taken the 73 war to shake Begin or it was perhaps Sadats public announcements..whatever it was (Begin never said as far as i know)....when Sadat came forth, no egyptians were killing israelis........

[Violet_Crumble]

56. I know. If Golda had still been PM it wouldn't have happened...

With Begin, it was a mixture of wanting to make his stamp on Israeli history and getting right up there with Ben-Gurion in the history books, as well as thinking strategically. He wanted Egypt taken out of the picture so that there'd be no Egypt in any future Israeli/Arab wars, and Sinai didn't hold the same hold as did the West Bank. It was easy for him to give back the Sinai in exchange for peace, because it was always the West Bank that he refused to compromise an inch on. To him it was an indivisible and eternal part of Israel. But out of the two of them, it was Sadat who was the visionary and who realised that big gestures coming from left-field was a huge part of making progress towards peace. Speaking at the Knesset was a gesture like that, and I think it was when he was in Israel that he said that 90% of the conflict was psychological in nature. I totally agree with that assessment...

[pelsar]

64. there is no question in my mind ...

that sadat had the vision and Begin saw it as a "good deal"......Funny thing about this place....its really only the "right wing" that can make the peace. The left only gets half of the country behind it, but the right gets everybody. It was only sharon that could have pulled out of gaza, any left wing govt couldnt do it, so too with the sinai. I doubt Golda even if she wanted to (i plead ignorance here) might not have had the political credit to do it.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

51. Pelsar, I agree that nonviolence, including worldwide sanctions, divestment and boycotts are the

way to go.

Locally, I support nonviolent actions through the OPTs as well.

[bemildred]

57. I was attempting to clarify what she meant.

It seemed obvious to me. I am not a fan of the "they only understand force" meme applied to ethnic groups of any sort. But PM in context was asserting not that force is good, but that peaceful protest and negotiation has not produced much (nothing really, less than nothing) for the Palestinians, and that that gives credibility and support to the more violence prone, and that seemed obvious to me too.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

60. Thanks. I am deeply troubled by the fact that peaceful negotiation has yielded nothing.

[Sezu]

61. NOTHING? NOTHING? Surely you can't mean this. n/t

[ProgressiveMuslim]

62. Well, that's true.

The "peace process" has yielded plenty of time for Israel to steal and illegally settle more land, but for the Palestinians, they have surely yielded nothing.

Who has benefitted from these past 15 years except the crooks, extremists and settlers?

[Violet_Crumble]

47. It's either misenterpreting or a serious case of misreading n/t

[Sezu]

63. And now their interests include supporting a war criminal

"Hezbollah Secretary General Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah said on Thursday that international interference in the affairs of Sudan and its people has reached a dangerous level.

As he joined the Sudanese ambassador in welcoming the Sudanese presidential envoy Qutub al-Mahdi, Nasrallah called intervention in Sudan: “part of the international conspiracy to strike elements of force in the Arab and Islamic nations, and to destabilize internal stability.”

Nasrallah said that this “conspiracy” also aims to endanger national unity and to create ethnic, sectarian and political conflicts and wars that serve US and Israeli interests. He called on the Sudanese people to maintain their internal unity and identity.

The governments and the people of the Arab and Islamic world, said the Hezbollah leader, must support Sudan. He expressed Hezbollah’s strong support for Sudan, for the Sudanese people and for Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir.

The prosecutor of the International Criminal Court has recently issued an arrest warrant for Bashir for genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity committed in Darfur."

Along with Kuntar, their "interests," are barbaric.

[Vegasaurus]

65. Supporting Bashir, Kuntar and more murderers

The level of insanity and malevolence of Nasrallah and his ilk knows no bounds.

[Sezu]

66. But somehow he has "restored Arab pride."

Isn't that special?

[Vegasaurus]

69. If Arab pride means celebration of murder and death, sure

Wouldn't it be great if they took pride in some real accomplishments, like technological or medical development?

Kind of like the Israelis?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

24. It depends on how you measure success.

Is Hezbollah the most powerful player in Lebanon right now?

Was Hezbollah able to thumb its nose at the west and achieve it's goals?

They, like many nation states, are often willing to trade lives of citizens in order to meet political goals. They are hardly unique in that.

[BioDan]

26. I'm just saying

If it is going to cost them thousands of casualties and millions in damage every time they want to achieve a symbolic goal, more power to them.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

30. How can you call this symbolic??

[LeftishBrit]

45. So they are willing to sacrifice the lives of their own people to increase their own power?

True. And you are right that

'They, like many nation states, are often willing to trade lives of citizens in order to meet political goals. They are hardly unique in that.'

Except I'd say 'governments' or 'parties' rather than 'nation states'. The leaders turn their citizens into willing or unwilling cannon fodder. Indeed, hardly unique - look at Bush and Cheney! But nasty nevertheless.