Ahmadinejad: Palestinian struggle source of pride for all Muslims

[Phx_Dem]

Warm Iranian support: Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad reassured Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh that Iran would stand by the Palestinians "to the ultimate victory." In a phone conversation between the two, Iran's leader expressed his hope for a victory celebration "after the disappearance of Zionists from Palestine and from the world."

snip

"Today, the resistance in Palestine is a source of pride for all Muslims and freedom lovers in the world," Ahmadinejad said. "The Palestinian nation is fighting against the most despicable people on the face of this earth…the resistance, which is burning in the faith of the Palestinian nation, is shaking up the Zionist enemy."

Meanwhile, Haniyeh expressed the Palestinian people's commitment to continue on the path of resistance, that is, the armed struggle against Israel. He thanked Iran for its support and said that the resistance will continue despite the difficulties.

"The Palestinian nation will never recognize Israel, and the banner of resistance will never be put down," he said, while slamming the Gaza Strip siege.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3595845,00.html

[Dhalgren]

1. Well, Ahmadinejad is not "Iran's leader",

but he is right about the "Zionists"...

[Phx_Dem]

2. How is he right about the zionists?

I'm a Zionist, should I be disappeared?

That fucking nut threatened virtually every jew in the world.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oberliner]

6. I guess you'll be parting company with Obama and Biden as well

Both have declared themselves to be Zionists.

[Dhalgren]

19. I don't feel I need to expound on this point further.

I stand by my statement.

[Behind the Aegis]

27. Of course, you don't.

Typical response from....

[Phx_Dem]

9. You're right

I come to DU to discuss issues with other liberals and progressives.

[Dhalgren]

20. If you are passes as "progressive" on DU

then I can only guess that all your definitions are equally skewed - you probably don't know what a "Zionist" is, either...

[Behind the Aegis]

23. Actually, if you are what passes for a "progressive" then we are in real trouble.

And, it would be you that doesn't know what a Zionist is.

[azurnoir]

42. How on earth can someone who so supports

occupation and oppression even begin to say "other" liberals and progressives as if....... at least be honest, you may be a Democrat, but that alone does not qualify you as liberal or progressive

[Phx_Dem]

44. Well that's just rude

I'm very sure I have never supported the occupation or oppression of anyone, much less the Palestinians. What I have stated before is that I support a peaceful resolution to the conflict, taking into account the needs and rights of both sides. I also believe that Israel has a duty to provide security for it's citizens, which you might interpret as supporting oppression and/or occupation--that would be an erroneous assumption on your part.

Given that we interact mainly in this forum, it's hard to tell where people stand on various issues. I consider myself pretty liberal, for example I support the nationalization of the energy, transportation and insurance industries. Quite sure that places me a good distance left of the official democratic platform.

[Behind the Aegis]

11. Bigotry, plain and simple.

If you have nothing but contempt for Zionists, then perhaps you should never post in I/P again, nor about Israel, or anything remotely related.

"I have nothing but contempt for homosexuals."
"I have nothing but contempt for Muslims."
"I have nothing but contempt for Palestinian nationalists."

Gee, I wonder how those remarks would be handled here?

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

25. Just as I thought (and posted)...

...you don't know what the fuck a Zionist is, instead have swallowed the bigoted trash of the so-called "progressive left."

On edit: You must also have a great disdain for Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians...and even other Palestinians, as they also treat Palestinians as less than, or does that truth disturb your "truths?"

On second edit: "This wasn't in the I/P ghetto when I posted." Yes, it was.

[LeftishBrit]

32. No. A Zionist is a person who supports the continued existence of a homeland for the Jews in the

Middle East.

That's all it means. It includes Likud supporters and Peace Now supporters; supporters and opponents of the Occupation.

Many Zionists DO strongly support a two-state solution and Palestinians' right to a homeland.

Personally, as a leftwing Zionist, I have no truck with ANYONE who thinks Palestinians have no right to a state; but I also have no truck with the view that Jews have no right to a state.

[Violet_Crumble]

37. That's what I thought it meant to, but...

...I learnt from experience when I pointed out here at DU that I'm a Zionist that the term Zionist is used by some folk so that it only applies to those who are 1) bigoted against Muslims/Arabs, 2) oppose a viable and independent Palestinian state coming into being, 3) blindly support everything Israel does and while they say 'I am critical of Israel!!!!' never actually deviate from their 110% unwavering support of everything Israel does. Any support of the Palestinian people's right to self-determination and they swiftly get out their dymo-tape machines and whack an *anti-Zionist* label on others. It's a lot like the use of the term *terrorist*. People define it to suit their own purposes and don't particularly care about logic or the actual meaning of the term, which in the case of Zionism is a term that embraces a wide variety of political ideologies, ranging from Jabotinsky's stinky and fascist form, to the idealism of post-Zionism. Bottom line is I think some Zionists are fascist wankers and respectd many others who want to see a Jewish homeland continue without the occupation and hostilities...

Interestingly enough, I was introduced to someone over a cup of coffee who is very active in the local pro-Palestinian community here. When I mentioned a friend of mine who I run a forum with, she got this disapproving look on her face and told me he was a *soft Zionist* and she said it like it was a dirty word. So I asked her to explain what it meant, coz I'd never heard it before, and what she described was a left-wing Zionist (supports Israel as a Jewish state, opposes the occupation, and doesn't carry on as though the Palestinian people are a bunch of raving antisemites, which makes a few Zionists in this forum not left-wing Zionists, imo). So I asked her what was wrong with that coz I'd be a soft Zionist as well, and she looked very impatient, changed the subject and I've never heard from her again...

[Phx_Dem]

39. This is DU

not some RW web site. When we talk about zionism or zionists the meaning is quite clear--support for the continued existence of Israel.

IMO the far left has made a concerted effort to perjerate the meaning of zionism and have been somewhat successful. Consider the different responses one sees in polls about zionism. You get a very different set of responses based on whether you ask 1. Are you a Zionist? vs. 2. Do you support the state of Israel?

Just curious does your friend consider herself a liberal or progressive?

[Violet_Crumble]

40. I was talking about a site that DUers post on...

So spare me the 'when we talk about zionism or zionists the meaning is quite clear' line because it doesn't wash after what was said there when I posted here that I was a Zionist...

My friend's a left-winger. Why?

[Phx_Dem]

41. There are several spin off sites that DUers post at

I'm going to assume which one you are referring to, frankly it's kinda silly for you to even suggest that they collectively constitute some sort of authority on the meaning of Zionism. You probably know that that site is open to liberals and conservatives, but as far as I know most everyone there supports a two-state solution.

[Violet_Crumble]

47. Why would I suggest something I'd strenuously disagree with?

I don't think that bunch of bigoted and obsessive twits constitute any more an authority on the meaning of Zionism than someone like Ahmanutjob does. The point I made and which you seem to have missed in preference to going on about liberals and conservatives and two-state solutions is that Zionist is a term used as a weapon depending on how people (many times) conveniently define it, not only by people who view Zionists as being the bad guys, but by those who view things the opposite way and will carry on that people like me who do support the continued existance of Israel as a homeland for the Jewish people aren't Zionists at all.

[Phx_Dem]

48. How you define yourself is your business

Does your meaning of Zionism include the right for jews around the world to emigrate to Israel? Based on your past statements, you don't support the expression of self-determination of non-Israeli jews.

[Violet_Crumble]

51. And again you miss the point...

..by now it's become pretty clear that yr choosing to ignore it. What I've been talking about is not how people choose to define themselves, but the way terms like Zionist are used as weapons by those who twist and massage their own definitions of the term so they exclude anyone who supports the right of self-determination for the Palestinians and who are critical of Israeli policy...

Does your meaning of Zionism include the right for jews around the world to emigrate to Israel? Based on your past statements, you don't support the expression of self-determination of non-Israeli jews.

I don't? Which past statements would these be? It's just that I don't recall ever saying I'm opposed to Jews emigrating to Israel. Also, I'm not really sure yr understanding what self-determination is if yr saying that a US citizen who's Jewish doesn't have self-determination if they don't move to Israel...

[LeftishBrit]

53. 'Zionist' in that restrictive sense is more usually used by anti-Zionists in my opinion

There are plenty of Zionists (as in, supporters of Israel's continued existence) who 'support the right of self-determination for the Palestinians and who are critical of Israeli policy'. I'm one. So are many left-wing Israeli politicians. Even Olmert has come out criticizing some past Israeli policies, and emphasizing the need for a Palestinian state' - presumably that doesn't make him not a Zionist.

I think some people misunderstand the term 'Zionist' as meaning 'Likudnik', 'anti-Palestinian', 'right-wing hawk', or 'uncritical supporter of ALL Israel's actions'. Actually, it often means merely what with regard to most other countries would be called 'neutral'. It is taken for granted that France, for example, has a right to exist, and that it is not responsible for most of the world's evils, and it would be odd to have a special term for someone who holds this view . The reason why the term 'Zionism' is still relevant, is that there are still a number of people who think that Israel *should* cease to exist and/or that it is responsible for a large number of the world's evils.

[Phx_Dem]

54. I'm not missing your point on purpose

It's just not much of a point. Lots of people misuse language for their benefit or for some larger agenda. People have been doing that for as long as there have been languages.

Regarding your past statements, you made it clear that you don't support the Jewish Right of Return which is an integral part of Zionism but you consider it a racist policy.

[oberliner]

49. Here's the American Heritage Dictionary definition

A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/zionism

I guess one can question what constitutes "support and development"

[Vegasaurus]

50. Supporting the Jewish right of self determination in a national homeland

That is my definition of Zionism, and I will strongly stand by that definition.

When people criticize Zionists, however, they are not criticizing this definition, but the entire existence of Israel, or Israelis or Jews. It is often used in an anti-semitic way.

The "Zionist entity", as Arabs like to describe Israel, (the one that they expect to obliterate, or "wipe off the face of the earth"), is an anti-semitic use of the word Zionist.

[Violet_Crumble]

52. I criticise Zionists who are wankers, well, because they're wankers...

When people criticize Zionists, however, they are not criticizing this definition, but the entire existence of Israel, or Israelis or Jews.

Well, no. I can think of quite a few Zionists who are outright nasty wankers (they're the ones who support the occupation, are bigoted against Arabs and Muslims etc) and my criticism of them is in no way a criticism of the entire existence of Israel or even Jews. Mind you, i find folk who lump all Zionists in one group and say things like 'Zionists are warmongers' no better than those who lump all Arabs in one group and say things like 'The "Zionist entity", as Arabs like to describe Israel, (the one that they expect to obliterate, or "wipe off the face of the earth"), is an anti-semitic use of the word Zionist.'

[Phx_Dem]

55. Your avoiding necessary specificity

Those "wankers" as you call them are religious or revisionist Zionists. Just calling them Zionists is misleading. FWIW I strongly disagree with their ideology as well.

[Vegasaurus]

56. And I criticize Arabs who are "wankers"

because there are quite a few Arabs (really a lot, actually) who are outright nasty wankers.

[azurnoir]

43. There are rightwingers here that have done the same

to the degree that awhile back I had to ask "what the heck happened? The zionism I learned about as a child was left/socialist leaning to change to what I am seeing here which seems almost neoconesqe"

[Dhalgren]

22. So you say that every Jew is a Zionist?

Look who the bigot is now...

[shira]

24. Are you against zionists or zionism?

Both?

Jews weren't allowed into any other countries during WW2. They were turned back even by the USA. They couldn't escape the Nazis and they had no land of their own. So why are you against zionists and/or zionism? Why are others allowed self-determination, and not Jews - when they had NOWHERE else to go?

[Behind the Aegis]

26. Wow. Talking about making your "truths."

I never said all Jews were Zionists. I didn't even say who was or wasn't a Zionist. I never defined it. So, I guess that's a mirror you are holding up, but it's not my reflection you are seeing.

[Shaktimaan]

46. Just curious...

you may have already answered this question and had your post deleted but I'd really like to know what your definition of Zionism is.

Considering your statement that you have nothing but contempt for Zionists I'd expect that you have very little information on the subject... and probably none that's actually accurate. It is easy to feel contempt for groups that you have never met or taken the time to learn about. Liberalism as a movement has always stood in opposition to this kind of knee-jerk bigotry, (and it is bigotry btw); despite this, there will always be those who hold all members of any group in contempt, be they republicans, Palestinians, liberals or Zionists.

The antidote to bigotry is education. So tell me, what is a Zionist, according to you?

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oberliner]

7. How does Israel threaten every Muslim in the world?

What is Zionist fascism?

[Behind the Aegis]

12. They don't. Only the simple-minded think Zionists/Israel are threats to all Muslims.

[LeftishBrit]

33. Israel threatens EVERY Muslim in the world?

When did Israel threaten Pakistan for example? Or Turkey? Or - well, a very long list!

This sounds exactly like the sort of argument used by the Right, with 'Muslims' substituted for 'Christians' or 'Westerners', and 'Israel' substituted for 'Islamofascism' or whatever is the current bogeynation - at the moment, Iran.

This sort of 'bogeynation' creation and exaggeration of 'threat to the whole world!' is exactly what has brought us the War on Terra and the disastrous war on Iraq.

[Vegasaurus]

35. So Zionists are fascists, huh?

I am a Zionist.

So, by your definition, I am also a fascist.

Ok then.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[azurnoir]

5. Aren't you forgetting some Zionists?

Or do only Jewish Zionists count in opinion?

However the quote ""The Palestinian nation is fighting against the most despicable people on the face of this earth…the resistance, which is burning in the faith of the Palestinian nation, is shaking up the Zionist enemy."

Is hardly a threat to every Jew on earth, the term was Zionist not Jew, unless of course your claim is that every Jew on earth is a Zionist or "shaking up" is a death threat
There is also the question just how is ynet or Israel privy to a private conversation between Ahmadinejad and Haniyeh? Is this an admission that both land lines and cell phones are being monitored?

[oberliner]

8. Check the Islamic Republic News Agency

They are the source of the information about the content of the phone conversation. It was not intended to be private.

[azurnoir]

15. From IRNA

The President of the Islamic Republic of Iran said, "Today, by grace of God, the Palestinian resistance is a cause for pride for the entire world Muslims, and freedom seekers throughout the world." Ahmadinejad reiterated, "The Palestinian nation is engaged in a chest to chest encounter with most cruel individuals on this earth and the grass root resistance of the Palestinian nation is now jolting the foundations of the Zionist enemy.

Referring to the pressure imposed against the Palestinian nation, particularly in the siege of Gaza, the popular Prime Minister of the Palestinian nation reiterated, "This siege, the imposed pressure, and aggressive moves are aimed at getting concessions from the Palestinian nation."
He added, "They want us to recognize the legitimacy of Israel and to put down the flag of resistance, but the Palestinian nation would neither ever recognize Israel, nor put down the flag of resistance." Haniyeh further emphasized, "Although we are faced with a very tough situation today, we can assure you that we face no shortage in our prestige, nobility, and grandeur, and that we are still standing tall in the brilliant path of resistance."

http://www1.irna.ir/en/news/view/line-22/0809123630185634.htm

[oberliner]

17. From IRIB

President Ahmadinejad In a telephone conversation with Palestinian Prime Minister, Ismail Haniyeh said,"Today the resistance of the Palestinian people has brought dignity to all Muslims and freedom-lovers around the world."

"The Palestinian nation is confronting with the most cruel peopel (Zionists) and today the Resistance has shaken the Zionist enemy," the President added.

He hoped that the nations would celebrate the eradication of Zionists from the scene of Palestine and the world.

"Those who resist in the path of the God would bring victory and this is a divine promise which is definite," President Ahmadinejad said.

http://www.iribnews.ir/Full_en.asp?news_id=258681&n=12

[azurnoir]

28. Three different interpetations

from 3 different sources, why do you want to believe that Iran actually intends to "eradicate all Zionists from the face of the Earth" do they have the ability to that, even with nuclear weapons? Does saying this excuse anything Israel does ie one nations words excuse another's actions?
Not to mention Ahmadinejad is a know "blowhard" who does not have the power to back up those words and who may no longer be Iran's president by mid 2009.

[Phx_Dem]

30. Khameini recently endorsed Ahmedinijad for another 4-5 year

term. Given that the candidates in Iran are selected by the Iranian Shia ulama, I think he will be around for some time.

[azurnoir]

34. perhaps amd perhaps not

you did say candidates.

[oberliner]

31. It's one source

The Iranian government controlled news service is the original source.

There is no interpretation involved. The Ynet story is citing that source. Your IRNA citation is not the source in question.

IRIB is the government controlled radio and tv organization of Iran.

My personal view is that Iran wants Israel not to exist and has taken whatever steps it can to achieve that goal, such as arming Hezbollah and Hamas. I also understand why Israel might fear what Iran would do should Iran develop nuclear capabilities, considering Iran's track record of arming groups dedicated to Israel's destruction and considering the rhetoric included on Iran's government controlled media sources.

It is my hope that sanctions and other forms of diplomatic and economic pressure will cause Iran to rethink it's nuclear program in much the same way North Korea has.

It is also my hope that the more moderate voices within Iran can do something to rid their country of their current right-wing belligerent government.

Hopefully Iran and Israel can return to being on good terms as they were before the Iranian revolution.

[Behind the Aegis]

18. You forgot this quote from your source...

"He expressed hope that with the wrapping up of the Zionists' circles from Palestine and the world the world nations would celebrate a great victory."

So genocide of Israel is acceptable?

[Behind the Aegis]

10. You'll defend just about anything that is anti-Israeli, won't you?

"However the quote ""The Palestinian nation is fighting against the most despicable people on the face of this earth…the resistance, which is burning in the faith of the Palestinian nation, is shaking up the Zionist enemy." Is hardly a threat to every Jew on earth, the term was Zionist not Jew, unless of course your claim is that every Jew on earth is a Zionist or "shaking up" is a death threat."

"Shaking up" may not be a "death threat," but this quote: "after the disappearance of Zionists from Palestine and from the world." seems more of one, or maybe he is just misunderstood, right? :eyes:

[azurnoir]

13. More hyperbole

but believe whatever you want and post what ever you where ever you want, but I read "somewhere" that I was too stupid to be antisemitic or something.
Now I am done with this as far as you go.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Phx_Dem]

16. another translation

President Ahmadinejad In a telephone conversation with Palestinian Prime Minister, Ismail Haniyeh said,"Today the resistance of the Palestinian people has brought dignity to all Muslims and freedom-lovers around the world."

"The Palestinian nation is confronting with the most cruel peopel (Zionists) and today the Resistance has shaken the Zionist enemy," the President added.

He hoped that the nations would celebrate the eradication of Zionists from the scene of Palestine and the world.

http://www.iribnews.ir/Full_en.asp?news_id=258681&n=12

More than a little ironic for Ahmadinijad to talk about "freedom lovers" and eradicating millions of people in the same breath.

I bet there are a lot of Persians who would love to be free from the theocratic tyranny in Iran.

[azurnoir]

29. Choose which ever suits your needs

Mine are a peaceful solution, apparently unlike others here. Or perhaps wishing for no bloodshed on either side means I wish for Israel's destruction, have it your way.

[Violet_Crumble]

38. Whoever said that about you is a flaming lunatic with the IQ of a slug...

Yr posts are intelligent and yr clearly a pretty bright person. I bet whoever said that is one of those braindead twits who shrieks accusations of antisemitism at just about anyone who dares to criticise Israel. I've encountered some antisemites on various forums and intelligence isn't their strong point. In fact, when it comes to being incredibly dopey, it's probably a neck and neck race between antisemites and the moron who said that about you. What a shame they're not a member of DU so they could show a bit of backbone and say that sort of mindless crap here and own their words ;)

[sabbat hunter]

45. so you feel

that Israel has no right to exist? How progressive.

[pegleg]

57. It should never be forgotten that the Palestinian leadership was allied

with Hitler during WW2. That doesn't mean all Palestinians. But that fact shouldn't be overlooked because it helps to put matters into perspective.

[pegleg]

58. Zionism is certainly no different than Islamic waqf. And that is the policy

that Ahmydinnerjacket follows.