11 killed as Hamas forces battle armed clan in Gaza

[oberliner]

Hamas forces assaulted the compound of a heavily armed Gaza clan early Tuesday, sparking a fierce street battle that killed 11 people in fighting throughout the night, Hamas officials said. Two bystanders, including a young boy, were among the dead.

One of the dead was a Hamas policeman, while the other ten were all clan members. Hamas officials said a pro-Al-Qaida militant was among the casualties.

Machine-gun fire and explosions were heard around the Gaza City neighborhood home to the Doghmush clan, a notorious family with links to both militant and criminal groups.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1021701.html

[Vegasaurus]

1. As long as there is so much internecine violence between the

Palestinian factions, there is no hope of two states.

At best, it would be three.

I am beginning to think that that option makes the most sense of all, for everyone's peace and security.

[azurnoir]

2. Googled three state solution

a number of ways, got very, very little save an LA Times article from a year ago. So is this your personal dream, a so called solution that would result in a Palestinian state so vastly weakened as to say why bother? Couple that with a thread from last week about Israel's attempts to transfer as many people as possible from the West Bank to Gaza and the intent becomes very clear, at least on the part of some, but luckily not those with any real power.

There is also another question if you bothered to read the article Hamas was battling a criminal clan , does that bother you for some reason? If it had been IDF rather than Hamas you would be cheering

[oberliner]

3. Two innocent bystanders were killed including a young boy

If it had been the IDF killing an innocent young Palestinian boy in the course of battling criminals, I think there would have been some outcry.

[azurnoir]

4. Except it would have been said to be

the fault of Hamas or in the case of the child his parents for "letting" him be in the area.

[oberliner]

5. I guess that depends on who is commenting

Everyone has their own way of viewing things, I suppose.

[Phx_Dem]

6. al Jazeera does not provide details

At least 11 Palestinians have been killed and seven wounded in street fighting between Hamas security forces and a powerful Gaza family, Palestinian security officials say.

Fighting broke out on Monday night when the forces went to arrest members of the Doghmush family who had been accused of killing a police officer in Gaza City.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/09/200891610196358211.html

Maan is reporting this:

Eyewitnesses said that they saw body of a few months year old girl in Ash-Shifa hospital in Gaza who appeared to have “lost her head.” She is said to be daughter of Abu Al-Qassem Doghmush, the leader of the An-Nasser Brigades, and armed group close to Hamas.

http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=31975

If the IDF had done this all hell would be breaking loose right now. Frankly I can't believe al-Jazeera didn't cover this in more detail.

[Shaktimaan]

7. I don't think many folks think that 3 states

would be the ideal solution... an ideal solution would be a unified Palestinian national cause that allowed for two states. But if the reality of the situation won't easily allow this, then a split Palestinian state would be preferable to the status quo, don't you think?

Whether or not the WB and Gaza are nationally united probably won't dictate success or failure nearly as much as how that state (or states) are governed. Whether they have one state or two states, either situation would probably be sufficient, assuming good leadership. (Small doesn't necessarily mean weak or non-viable. Singapore isn't mush bigger than Gaza.) So if the fighting between the factions will prevent adequate governance then splitting the state might be preferable. No one is insisting that Pakistan and Bangladesh attempt re-uniting, after all.

As with everything else, this question is too complex for anyone to adequately answer with any degree of accuracy. It is never possible to predict the "correct" path, nor even to identify a past choice as right or wrong. Success for the Palestinians depends on many, many factors.

If they can overcome 80% of their obstacles then they will probably be fine... no one thing means abject failure.

[Vegasaurus]

10. I don't know how many people have put forth the idea of three states

but in most ways, it is certainly more of an option than the bloodbath of a single state.

Of course two states is the best option, but there may be a time when people realize that it simply isn't feasible.

If the Palestinian leadership, of both factions, cannot even find unity amongst themselves, they surely cannot find unity with Israel.

This is why it is possible that three states, may eventually be the only option.

We can still be hopeful for two, however.

[Shaktimaan]

11. Well, ultimately it isn't up to us at all.

This decision is entirely a Palestinian one and whether or not we (the US or Israeli govts) support one over the other the final decision probably can't be very readily influenced by outside forces.

I do agree that if the Palestinian factions are unable to find enough common ground amongst themselves to unite behind a national cause then expecting them to do so with Israel is senseless. Basically, if they are unable to unite themselves it will be due to an individual unwillingness to sacrifice for the greater good. In some ways it could be considered a test of whether they are truly ready for their own nation... if say, Hamas or IJ or even the PA prove unwilling to go so far as to disband themselves if it was for Palestine's ultimate benefit then the Palestinians' government will suffer for it.

Israel passed this particular test once when the Stern Gang and Irgun willingly disbanded, abandoning their individual visions, to better attain the more important shared vision of the Israelis as a whole. (Interestingly in current-day Israel we can see how this culture of sacrifice has been yielding to a more western concept of "me first" to the detriment of Israeli governance.)

[Shaktimaan]

8. double post- self delete

[Shaktimaan]

9. double post- self delete