Palestinians die in Gaza clashes

[azurnoir]

At least six Hamas militants have been killed after Israel's first incursion into the Gaza Strip since June's truce.

Israel said its troops had uncovered a tunnel along central Gaza's frontier which had been dug by militants intending to abduct Israeli soldiers.

Israel said Tuesday's raid was not a violation of the ceasefire, but rather a legitimate step to remove an immediate threat.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7709603.stm

[Scurrilous]

1. Israeli officials report rocket barrage from Gaza

<snip>

"Israeli rescue services have reported a "massive" cross-border rocket barrage by Palestinian militants from the Gaza Strip.

The barrage Wednesday came just hours after an Israeli air strike and marked the first major exchange of fire since a truce took effect in June.

The Israeli military said at least 20 rockets were fired from the strip early Wednesday but there was no immediate word of injuries or damage.

Israel launched an airstrike on Gaza earlier Wednesday after its troops fought a fierce gunbattle with Hamas militants who fired mortars into southern Israel. The fighting killed six Palestinians and threatened to unravel the truce, that had mostly quieted violence in the volatile territory."

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNCndRPRq3gD948JN6G0

[Kurska]

2. Is this how wars start?

Build a tunnel, blow the tunnel. Blow the tunnel, kill the men. Kill the men, fire the rockets. Fire the rockets, drop the bombs.

Will no one reign in this insanity before it is too late?

[azurnoir]

4. actually

the droppimg bombs comes betwwen the building and blowing part.

[azurnoir]

3. So does that break the ceasefire?

appears the rightwing "somewhere" got its wish.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

5. Gaza's flourishing tunnel trade

Rami Almeghari writing from the occupied Gaza Strip, Live from Palestine, 24 October 2008


The tunnel trade in Gaza has become one of the only ways for Palestinians to get essential goods into the besieged territory. (Iyad Albaba)

Since Israel's total closure of Gaza began over 16 months ago, the Palestinian residents of the tiny coastal strip have relied on smuggling to meet their basic subsistence needs. A recent United Nations report stated that Gaza's local market is beholden to the tunnel trade or "death trade," which has so far claimed the lives of 40 people. Known locally as "grave diggers," a few thousand men earn their living by digging tunnels where they transport essential goods from Egypt like food, cooking gas, petrol, live stock and even electric devices.

The tunnels are all closely lined up along the Philadelphia route on the Gaza-Egypt border. Gaza's markets are now filled with either Egyptian-made or Egyptian-imported goods. This is particularly true in the city of Rafah, in the southern Gaza Strip, where the tunnel trade is concentrated.

"I feel comfortable finding something to sell rather than finding nothing, but I am not satisfied with myself as a merchant, depending on smuggled goods. The prices are relatively high, while the people's purchasing power is considerably low. Can you imagine, you must buy smuggled clothes for your children! It's America, Israel, and some Arabs who have forced an entire people to rely on smuggling," Abu Jamal, a 43-year-old merchant of electric devices explained.

In the early morning hours on Tuesday, Abu Yasser, a tunnel worker transporting cooking oil, shared Abu Jamal's sentiments, adding, "let Israel besiege us the way it wants, but we are here bringing what we want, also. At least we can now make bread, and we can cook, despite relatively high prices."

While placing gas canisters inside a van in front of his tunnel's tent, Abu Yasser explained that "Every day, we transport about 300 to 400 gas canisters from inside the Egyptian territories, with the help of some Egyptian brothers at the Egyptian side of this border. However, each canister costs 100 US dollars, it is still much better than lacking them totally."

While Abu Yaser's tunnel is active, others, like that of Abu Hassan, are still under construction. Digging a tunnel requires three to four months; Abu Hassan and other workers use an electric machine to pull out piles of sand from a hole that is 21-meters deep. A father of seven children, Abu Hassan explains that "what pushed me to work in these tunnels is the fact that over the past 16 months, I have been staying idle without job. How could I feed my family? I know it is dangerous work, but what can I do? I have no other option."

In the past several months, scores of tunnel workers have died, either while digging or because of Egyptian authorities collapsed some of these tunnels. However, the trade continues unabated, driven by Israel's ongoing blockade.

Abu Mohammad, a resident of Khan Younis, has worked as a tunnel contractor for the past eight years. Last summer his brother and nephew were killed while digging a tunnel. "After the death of my brother, Helmi, and nephew, I have felt so depressed and even sick. But what can I say, suppose I stop working, how could these people live, how? Many are staying idle without work and believe me, if you come in the afternoon, you can see how many are looking for work digging there!"

more...

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9912.shtml

[azurnoir]

6. Thank you

so in reality the tunnels are used to transport goods other than weapons,

guess that makes a real threat.:sarcasm:

[eyl]

8. What PM's article established

is that the tunnels are also used to smuggle goods other than weapons.

Are you arguing that the tunnels are never used for smuggling weapons or for attacks on Israel? Gilad Shalit, for one, might beg to differ. Even the EI article (which avoided mentioning tunnels into Israel, or weapons smugling as anything other than an "Israeli claim") mentions that the tunnels have also been used for smuggling "drugs and other prohibited items", to the point where Hamas is trying to restrict them.

Also, if you'd read the articles carefully, the tunnels PM's article is discussing are into Egypt. The tunnel in the OP was nowhere near that area - it was in the vicinity of El Bureij, which is in central Gaza (a bit closer to its northern end than it southern end, in fact) and the tunnel was quite close to the fence between Gaza and Israel. Are you honestly saying they wre trying to smuggle in goods from Egypt from there?

So yes, some of the tunnels are a real threat.

[azurnoir]

10. Nope however your opinion that the tunnel

was not close enough to Egypt so it obviously so that Hamas could invade Israel is also ridiculous, are you so sure that there is no smuggling going on between Israeli's and Palestinian after all it does go on with Iran.

[eyl]

34. Right...

With Gaza bordering Egypt, it's natural to assume that a tunnel about 20 kilometers or so from the Egyptian border and a couple of hundred meters from Israel is intended to reach the former and not the latter.

:sarcasm:

As for smuggling between Israel and the Palestinians, it happens of course. But it largely happens with the West Bank rather than Gaza these days, and in any event it happens overland - I've never heard of a Palestinian smuggling tunnel into Israel.

And on just what basis are you saying that a tunnel to attack Israel is ridiculous? You could, perhaps, argue that it's not the only explanation, but it's not like tunnels haven't been used to attack Israeli targets before...

[Behind the Aegis]

7. laughable propaganda.

It is much like the Gaza "blackout." You know, the one staged by Hamas, in the middle of the DAY, by placing curtains all over and lighting candles. But, I am sure it will shore up the anti-Israeli hate, though that doesn't take all that much effort.

[azurnoir]

9. That's right it was all just propaganda

all just made up by Hamas most likely with help from who would it be PCHR, UNRWA, maybe B'Tselem supplied the camera's but we all just know Israel would never ever cut power to Gaza,have I got that right ? That is your claim or what your trying to pass off as truth, get a clue dude your on the wrong site for that kind of BS

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[azurnoir]

12. LOL what got busted

if there was a power outage? That they did the photo session during the day rather than at night? Oh what a sin or quick look over there.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[azurnoir]

14. What is sad and pathetic are your responses

in which you routinely resort to ad hominen because you have nothing else, think some lessons would have been learned about that recently. What was the hoax here that they used candles and darkened the room during the day to show what night was like, oh for shame makes it all a lie, are you still claiming that there was no power cut?

[Behind the Aegis]

16. No, the sad and pathetic respones; you've cornered that market.

You do know what a "hoax" is, right? "...that they used candles and darkened the room during the day..."

You do know what "untruth" is, right? "...are you still claiming that there was no power cut?"

[oberliner]

15. The issue was that they closed the curtains and used candles unnecessarily

Even though it was daylight and there was no need for candles since it was light outside.

[azurnoir]

17. Understood

but perhaps they were trying to illustrate the conditions at night, and perhaps this was one time that it would best to leave it alone as it seemed either a denial or a as I stated a "look over there" tactic and actually sort of petty

[Behind the Aegis]

18. LOL! So, are you acknowledging it was a hoax?

Better yet, are you DENYING that power was actually cut? :eyes:

[azurnoir]

21. you once again try to purport

that there was no power cut by Israel? If so what was the "hoax" darkness at midday?

What I said was all finger pointing and shrillness over what would have been in a few hours amounted to a tired, petty,"look over there" tactic on the order of "he pals around with terrorists". Israels "supporters" would have been better to keep silent the entire episode including this "discussion" only punctuates the need to distract from reality

[Behind the Aegis]

22. Are you serious?

"you once again try to purport that there was no power cut by Israel?" FAIL

BTA: (post #11) "The power was cut off,...

"If so what was the "hoax" darkness at midday? :rofl:

BTA: (post #11) "...but it wasn't as it was portrayed because they got flat-ass busted.", which was referencing post #7 "It is much like the Gaza "blackout." You know, the one staged by Hamas, in the middle of the DAY, by placing curtains all over and lighting candles."

"What I said was all finger pointing and shrillness over what would have been in a few hours amounted to a tired, petty,"look over there" tactic on the order of "he pals around with terrorists". Israels "supporters" would have been better to keep silent the entire episode including this "discussion" only punctuates the need to distract from reality" :crazy:

The first 6 posts are not from "pro-Israeli supporters." The first post from a pro-Israeli was me, and that was in response, not to the OP, which was largely ignored, but to the BS propaganda posted by PM...TWO DAYS later. The only "look over there" posters have been you and PM.

[azurnoir]

23. Ah yeah

the only mistake on my part was answering your shrill screed. I originally posted on election day when at most DUers attention was elsewhere, including mine for the most part.
Now I am sure you would need to ignore that part for some reason
BTW you should really try useing bold and red lettering LOL

[Behind the Aegis]

24. And par for the course...

No real response, just pathetic ad hominems. And you should try spell check! LOL

[azurnoir]

25. When you have nothing

correct spelling from how many posts back as a last resort, but at least you stayed true to yourself I was expecting it earlier that is why I left it. BTW the one who went OT was you, another quick look over there tactic? PM's post had a great deal to do with mine, but you would have to actually read it to know that

[Behind the Aegis]

26. Pathetic failure of a response...again.

You were the one resorting to "style" suggestions, I simply added one of my own, in response to yours. Of course, your post has nothing of substance and you have done nothing but post false allegations, then run from them by not responding. An example is: "BTW the one who went OT was you". Did I say anything about going off topic? Nope. And I read both pieces and her post was laughable propaganda, as I said, and gave another, recent, example of laughable propaganda (the Hamas meeting).

[azurnoir]

28. Ah yeah do keep trying

you reveal more than you know, so do keep on and remember time is short

[Behind the Aegis]

29. What?! Yet another incoherent post from you.

The only thing which has been revealed is your failure to follow your own sub-thread in any way resembling logic.

[azurnoir]

31. My subthread?

no I just am enjoying dicking with you dear, as for incoherent you must have your fingers in your ears and are singing lalala loudly figuratively speaking

[ProgressiveMuslim]

19. Could the timing be any more blantant?

Seriously... let's go shoot 'em up while no one is looking!

I like the Heathlander's take:

http://heathlander.wordpress.com/2008/11/05/while-all-eyes-were-on-america/

[oberliner]

20. Welcome back to the board!

I can't say I agree with the perspective shared by the person in the article you linked to, but it's good to have you back.

What do you think the impact on the peace process will be now that Obama has been elected president?

[LeftishBrit]

30. Agree. Welcome back, PM!

We don't always agree, but I find your perspectives interesting.

[azurnoir]

27. Great post

my fear is that now it will become "we must act quickly, time is short"

[oberliner]

32. Things have been pretty quiet for a fair amount ot time

Let's hope the cease fire can get back on track.

[azurnoir]

33. That is true

which is why it surprised me.