UN warns over Gaza food blockade

[subsuelo]

The UN in the Gaza Strip says it will run out of food aid in two days unless Israel's blockade - which it describes as "shameful and unacceptable" - eases.

The UN refugee agency Unrwa, which distributes food to half of Gaza's 1,5m people, called the blockade "a physical as well as a mental punishment".

Israel is now allowing a limited amount of fuel across the border, but it is still blocking food deliveries.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7722948.stm">BBC - read more

[subsuelo]

1. They're blocking FOOD??

What barbarians decided this would be an acceptable means of punishing the population of Gaza?

[shira]

3. you cannot be serious

This is exactly the shitty situation that Hamas wants. Why else would they attack those supplying them? That many keep falling for this shit is amazing. Hamas wants the world to blame Israel for Hamas' shitty actions and many people choose to keep falling for this shit over and over. If anyone is to 'blame', it's Hamas. Maybe you should petition Hamas to care a little more for their own people and stop bombing/mortaring the crossings? Hamas must laugh their asses off knowing whatever they do, they're never to blame - Israel is - and plenty of people keep falling for it.

If those so indignant about Israel's decision to stop supplies want those supplies to resume no matter what, maybe they should get their own asses out there at the crossing - along with their own family and friends - and risk their own necks while the bombs and rockets fly at them. I say let the "FREE GAZA" folks get out there and try making a difference. Let's see how 'brave' the FREE GAZA folks really are. I admit it would take huge ones to be out there at the crossings supplying Gaza. Definitely more ballsy than taking a cruise unimpeded into Gaza from occupied Cyprus in order to get chummy photo ops with Hamas' fearless leadership.

Can anyone here seriously argue that Hamas actually gives a shit about Palestinians - at least more than just using them as pawns in their continuing genocidal war against Israel?

Lastly, what does it say when 'good' folk keep letting Hamas off the hook for bombing the crossings while the blame falls on Israel? Does anyone SERIOUSLY think that blaming Israel for cutting off supplies due to HAMAS belligerance will actually make Hamas think twice about STOPPING their assaults on the supply routes? Talk about enabling Hamas and all but giving Hamas a big green light to continue this shit while they laugh their asses off watching Israel take the blame. Holy shit, why should the evil bastards in Hamas stop when whatever they do is turned around on Israel?

[delad]

4. you mean

like the EU members of parliment who stood at a crossing for several hours and were refused entry? Or maybe you're talking about the UN trucks filled with emergency supplies that were similarly refused entry? But i do understand, really, collective punishment is acceptable when it's Gazans. And why am i not surprised you fail to mention Israel's incursion into Gaza?

[shira]

6. umm...no, I mean....

...when Hamas bombs the crossings and attacks those trying to supply Gaza, as has been happening recently and is THE cause for the stoppage, what do you expect Israel to do? Would you be willing to risk your neck or your friends and family to supply Gaza? Simple question.

[delad]

10. since when

has Hamas been bombing the UN? their rockets must have developed a seriously long-fucking-ranged rocket recently. By the way, WTF has my neck got to do with the collective punishment being administered by the Israeli state on Gaza?

[henank]

12. Disingenuous answer

No one is claiming the UN is being bombed. The UN wants to bring in food aid to Gaza. The food aid has to cross a border crossing. The border crossing is between Gaza and Israel. Hamas is rocketing Israel, including the area around the border crossing. Israel closes the border.

Now do you see the progression? Let Hamas stop rocketing; the border will open.

collective punishment against Israelis obviously doesn't count

[shira]

36. Hamas launches rockets, Israel takes the blame for border closure

Come on now, get with the program!

Israel = evil 24/7/365 rain or shine, and they never close. Need I send you the memo again that makes this crystal clear?

When Hamas fires rockets at the border crossings, where people are trying to send them humanitarian aid and supplies, Israel is REQUIRED to just take it and respond with nothing more than flowers and baked cookies to Hamas leadership in response.

You guys crack me up.

[delad]

91. the obfuscation of the facts continues unabated

why am i not surprised?

[shira]

95. obfuscation?

Hamas has options. Stop the rockets, aid comes in. Bring aid through tunnels.

Egypt can allow aid in through Rafah.

Obfuscation? If you were truly concerned with Palestinian welfare, you'd be fighting damned hard for these 3 otions.

[delad]

90. Certain posters

have incessantly implied that Israel supplies Gaza with its aid. This is not the case. I was making this clear by using sarcasm. I suppose i should have made that clear too.

[shira]

96. israel supplies fuel, concrete, etc..

both of which are used against Israel in Hamas' war.

[delad]

92. Aslo, isn't

Israel responsible for keeping the flow of basic necessities unobstructed due to their role as occupier? That means manning the 'border' crossing.

[subsuelo]

5. No, *you* cannot be serious

I just love how Israel blocking food is twisted into look how evil *Hamas* is!

Speaking of bravery, gee that's really brave to starve the native people because they wouldn't leave the rest of the land that Israel wants to steal. Wow that must take some courage to starve those you stole from. I'm really impressed.

But no, let's talk about how evil Hamas is instead. Let's justify starvation of innocent people. Now that takes bravery.

[shira]

7. oh, but i am serious....are you?

Let's see now, maybe you're not aware that Israel is suspending aid due directly to Hamas cronies bombing the crossing? Or maybe you are but you have no problem with Israelis risking their necks to aid Gaza?

Humor me now....can you at least admit Hamas doesn't give a rat's ass for Palestinians and that they absolutely LOVE the PR blaming Israel for their own kassam/mortar attacks - and that 'starving' Palestinians is just fine and dandy with Hamas? PR win all the way baby! I'll hold my breath waiting for you or any blame-Israel-firster to riddle us that one, LOL.

I'll bet Hamas has no trouble at all smuggling arms and fuel in through the tunnels, whaddayathink?....how high a priority is smuggling actual food and medical supplies on their agenda, hmm? Hell, even if that is on their agenda, Hamas taxes the living shit out of it and charges through the roof so that no Gazans can actually afford smuggled food on their $2/day salaries.

[delad]

8. It's the

UN that administers and transports the UN funded supplies. Not sure why you're harping on about Israeli's putting their lives on the line

[henank]

13. No it's not the only one.

The fuel comes from Israel, from the Dor Alon company specifically. Their tankers have been attacked frequently and at least 2 workers of theirs have been killed.

[Chulanowa]

9. So your basic argument is...

Fuck the Palestinians, let them starve, go to hell because OMFG HAMAS!!!!!

While I'm certain that you have put a lot of hard, deep thought into this line of argument, it falls apart for the simple reason that even if you are right and it's all Hamas' fault, there's not fuckall that the people in gaza can do about it. Especially if they're starving.

Israel wants to undermine Hamas? Then keep the goddamn food lines open and show that despite attacks, Israel will still help out those in need. NOTHING could be more crippling to Hamas than capable competition in the social care arena.

[shira]

14. and your basic argument is....

...despite Hamas bombing and rocketing at people trying to supply Gaza at the border, Israel should keep sacrificing its own people and also put UN people in harm's way to keep the deliveries coming. Why should the bombs and rockets deter these deliveries, right?

And it's not "Fuck the Palestinians, let them starve and go to hell". This dumbass rocket-attack shit isn't happening in the West Bank. Seems the leadership over there is at least smart enough to NOT bomb the aid trucks. Hmmm...no rocket attacks, and needed aid, food and fuel get through. Gee, so simple even a child can understand it. But then again, that kinda puts a dent in the "Israel all evil 24/7/365 we-never-close" meme, doesn't it?

How do you counter Hamas when they obviously don't care about their own people and will happily use them as pawns in their media war against Israel - or as shields when they're trying to murder random Israelis?

Also, let's say Israel lets the UN trucks through. Should they defend UN workers against Hamas rocket attacks or just say "fuck it"? Is Israel ultimately responsible for the UN workers welfare at the border crossings when Hamas attacks them? Just wondering.

[subsuelo]

15. Here's my view

I'm opposed to the terrorism and reckless punishment of innocent people - committed by both sides. Not just one. So while I'm very much against the rocket attacks putting innocent Israeli lives in danger, I'm also against collective punishment of all of Gaza with the looming starvation, the massacres, murders, and reckless bombings of civilian centers, etc.

Blaming one side and one side only just doesn't cut it. Both sides are at fault and we should demand much greater accountability for both, rather than making excuses.

[shira]

34. your view

Yes, you've made it clear you believe in fantasy and make-believe.

Let's see now, Israel is deliberately "reckless" despite the ratio of terrorists to civilians killed since 2004 rising from 1:1 to about 1:30 since then.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/939702.html

But yes, let's blame both sides "EQUALLY"....so we can appear to be fair. After all, we can pretend that Hamas is also being very careful to keep the ratio of Israeli bad-guys to civilians killed to levels already achieved by the IDF.

We can also pretend, in being fair, that Israel's true intentions rather than feeding and stocking their enemy would be to lob rockets at Gaza civilian population centers as a "PROPORTIONATE" response to the barrage Sderot and now Ashkelon is receiving from Hamas. We can also pretend programs in Israel promoting love and tolerance are also happening simultaneously in Gaza:

http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/534451

Yes, let's all be fair like you and pretend.

[Chulanowa]

23. Actually yes

It's called volunteers. Remember those "Free Gaza" folks you were mocking? Israel's got plenty of 'em, and I'm sure that, given the opportunity, they would step up to take those trucks in there.

For someone who apparently talks a lot of shit about the situation, you seem fairly stupid when it comes to the facts involved. Do you know why Hamas has any support at all from people in Gaza? Obviously you don't. It's because Hamas pretty much has a monopoly on things like health care, education, and food supply. They're actually fairly effective at it. You may yap about Hamas not giving a shit about the Palestinians - maybe it's true, maybe it's not - but you have to admit they're pretty effective at using these methods to win Palestinian's support either way.

The key to defeating Hamas is to take actual, realistic measures to undermine their support. Keyboard warriors such as yourself don't really have much concept of what this would take, as you obviously think that denying food to the Palestinians will magically make them dislike the group that's scraping up all the food it can in order to keep a semblance of nutrition going in Gaza. No, the answer is to deny Hamas their monopoly. Find volunteers to drive the trucks. I fucking guarantee, there are people with the conviction of their ideals to do it, and for those with less conviction, money talks.

If the UN drivers are willing to take the risk, then let them take the risk. it won't be the first time UN workers have put their asses on the line and I doubt it'll be the last time. Israel telling them not to go is a bit silly. Israel wouldn't be held responsible by the UN, and the workers know exactly what they're getting into, don't they?

And don't give me that "shields" bullshit. There's no way that either side in this conflict can avoid "hiding behind" civilians. Palestinian militants launch attacks from civilian centers, at civilian centers. Israel does the same damn thing. Know why? Not for propaganda purposes - but because they're in a little strip of land that's been continuously inhabited for the past nine thousand goddamn years, and unless both sides line up to shoot at each other in the Negev desert, innocents are going to get caught in the crossfire. It's inevitable.

[shira]

33. yes?

Thank you....so any country (Israel especially) when attacked by an enemy country should just reply by making dinner, baking cookies and feeding the enemy while also turning the other cheek and inviting more attacks. Sounds like a great plan - and I'm certain Israel will soon cave in to UN demands and do exactly that (as opposed to any other country that would never be asked to do the same - and certainly never comply).

And how do you "undermine" support for Hamas? Sounds good on paper - got an actual plan?

I asked about "volunteers" driving the trucks for the simple reason that if attacked and killed, who's fault is it for sending them into hell? Yes, probably Israel....damned if they do and damned if they don't. They must be blamed for everything as we all know.

And what do you think about sending aid through....hmm, let's think real hard now...EGYPT? Oh yeah...they border Gaza too, wow. As if enough supplies aren't getting through the hundreds of tunnels through Rafah already.

And Israel uses fellow Israelis as human shields and has policy that calls for deliberate attacks on Gaza civilians? Sorry, this is where our conversation ends. You can talk fantasy and comic books with someone else as I don't have time for make-believe.

[delad]

2. because

this is the only way to combat terrorists, or didn't you know? starve them to death in their pathetic little ghetto :sarcasm:

[azurnoir]

11. update

We have run out this evening," said Mr Ging, Unrwa's senior official in Gaza.

"Unless the crossing points open... we won't be able to get that food into Gaza," he told Reuters news agency.

Also on Thursday, Israel refused permission for a group of senior European diplomats to visit the coastal enclave.

Gaza shut to fuel and journalists

It has also prevented journalists, including those from the BBC, from entering the territory.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7726943.stm

[subsuelo]

16. preventing journalists....

Of course that is for their own protection too, right (wink wink)

This has nothing to do with preventing journalists from reporting the truth of the situation...

It's all Hamas' fault!

[azurnoir]

18. Diplomats too n/t

[ProgressiveMuslim]

17. Israel sure has been a light to the nations, hasn't it?

[subsuelo]

19. UN senior official calls the situation "unprecedented"

"Tomorrow when 20,000 people show up to get their rations, they will be told they have to wait until we can resupply," John Ging, the senior U.N. official in Gaza, said in a telephone interview. "It is unprecedented that the UN is unable to get its supplies in to a population under such obvious distress."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/14/AR2008111401112.html?hpid=moreheadlines">Washington Post

[subsuelo]

20. EU Commissioner statement

"I am profoundly concerned about the consequences for the Gazan population of the complete closure of all Gaza crossings for deliveries of fuel and basic humanitarian assistance," he said in a statement. "I call on Israel to reopen the crossings for humanitarian and commercial flows, in particular food and medicines. Facilitation of fuel deliveries for the Gaza Power Plant should be resumed immediately."

Ferrero-Waldner emphasized that international law required the provision of essential services such as electricity and clean water to the civilian population.

[subsuelo]

21. UNRWA spokesperson statement

"It is pushing our operation to the brink every few months," UNRWA spokesman Chris Gunness said. "This is no way for a U.N. agency to operate; we need consistent and guaranteed supplies to enter Gaza on a long-term basis."

He warned that stopping U.N. aid from reaching Palestinians in Gaza could empower radical militant groups.

"UNRWA teaches moderation and human rights in a place that is becoming more and more radical," Gunness said. "Stopping the aid from going through is not in Israel's interest."

[shira]

35. yes, Israel is a light

They are the only country in the mideast that protects the rights of their gays, women, and minorities.

They are the only country in the world pressured to withstand terror attacks by an enemy, not attack back, and told to support, stock, and feed them as a proportional response. In fact, they are the only country in the world not allowed to respond offensively or defensively in any way, shape, or form to terrorism.

Despite 60 years of genocidal intent by her enemies, a total of about 60,000 arabs (in all wars, not just Palestinians) have been killed by Israel in all that time. Compare to France in Algeria (where nearly a million were killed within a decade) or the Allied powers in Iraq (where under a million have been killed) within a decade. Neither France or the USA/Britain in these wars were under imminent threat as Israel has been. How about comparing to the Russians in Chechnya or the Chinese with Tibet? No contest.

And there's no sense comparing Israel to its Arab neighbors, right?

So I'd call Israel a light for certain.

This doesn't mean I think Israel is perfect. I have a problem with ANY and EVERY action they take in response to terror, because WHATEVER they do will harm people. I just don't see better options that will work.

If you supported Palestinians as I do, perhaps you'd come to agree with me that Palestinians need to be encouraged and empowered to rise up against a leadership of theirs that deliberately uses them as pawns in this struggle. A true progressive, as you portend to be, should challenge all intolerant regimes that restrict individual rights and liberties as Palestinian leadership does.

Rather than accept the fascist, repressive, and totalitarian regimes of Hamas and Hezbollah - maybe you should consider rejecting them entirely and support instead imperfect liberal democracies like Israel that actually promote progressive, liberal values. Is that too much to ask of a progressive such as yourself?

[subsuelo]

65. Amazing how inhumanity to others

gets spun into how wonderful and progressive it is (albeit "imperfect").

So, stealing land from a native population, herding them into ghettos, and periodic reckless bombing at civilian centers is merely a part of being 'imperfect'.

Sure, let's use that argument to spin the war on Iraq too, eh? Hey we're just 'imperfect' however well intentioned our actions have been, right?

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

86. OOpps..spelling error.

Should read "response." Don't know how spell check missed it, but hey, whatever.

[shira]

97. can't admit it, can you?

Israel is the only country in that region that protects civil liberties and has almost unlimited freedom of speech and dissent (check out their media). Can you admit that?

==========================================================

Amazing how inhumanity to others gets spun into how wonderful and progressive it is (albeit "imperfect").

War is inhumane, period. How can you expect any country to not react to terror attacks and leave the enemy country untouched (as ANY response whatsoever could be labeled collective punishment)? And can you admit one of Hamas' goals is to see Palestinians killed by Israelis so they can use the PR as a way of fighting Israel?

So, stealing land from a native population, herding them into ghettos, and periodic reckless bombing at civilian centers is merely a part of being 'imperfect'.

No land was stolen. Israel offered immediately after 1967 to give the land back for peace and got the 3 no's of Khartoum in response - proving Israel's purpose was never to steal land. Besides, Israel has offered 99-100% of the land just recently (in part by swapping some land).

Herding into ghettos? Check out in the 1970's that Israel offered a "build your own home" project that would have eliminated the refugee crisis and put people in houses. UNRWA was against it because Arab leadership wanted to keep refugees suffering.

As for periodic reckless bombing, the ratio of civilians killed to terrorists killed is now about 1:30 due to Israel taking great care to protect Palestinian civilians.

It ain't perfect, but it's a far cry from the propaganda you're peddling.

Sure, let's use that argument to spin the war on Iraq too, eh? Hey we're just 'imperfect' however well intentioned our actions have been, right?

I've never been for the war on Iraq.

But can you admit Israel has been more careful than the allies in Iraq WRT protecting enemy civilians? Hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq within a 5 year period - 60,000 arabs killed in the past 60 years of war against Israel. Iraq, no threat to American or British civilians, as opposed to Gaza/W.Bank whose leadership is for genocide of the Israeli populace via terrorism.

Israel deserves a higher grade than the allies in Iraq....true or false? Check out France's record in Algeria (close to a million killed there within a decade).

I'm betting you won't admit to anything. Israel must remain more evil 24/7/365 than any other nation in the world. This is extremist ideology.

Meet the new left.....same as the old right.

[pelsar]

22. and you guys fell for it once again.....everytime....

hamas is very well aware of the israeli reaction when they start firing rockets...the 3 borders that israel controls gets closed down.....this action/reaction has been going on long enough not to be confused.

hamas is the ruling govt hence they in fact are responsible for the welfare of their people..and if they have actions that help or hurt their own, it is their responsibility. Trying to kill israelis brings about a negative reaction from israel.....this has been known for a very long time.

there are over 1000 tunnels now going to egypt, whos material that is imported gets taxed by hamas.....it appears that hamas prefers to bring in food that they can tax as opposed to the free food from the UN.....(havent yet seen a pic of a starving Palestenian-anybody got any picts?)

[azurnoir]

24. Is Israel not aware of reaction

when their drones attack refugee camps? Or does oops that was an accident and BTW oh that did not break the cease fire supposed to be the only thing that means anything.
As for pictures of starving Palestinians maybe jpost can get some of those I hear the BBC is having a difficult time
Over a thousand tunnels really you've counted? Oh wait a minute those are for big screen TV's and motorcycles, not to mention rockets
As for "falling for it" nope I don't anymore, did for the first four and three quarters decades of my life though.
Israel or at least certain factions there should be happy the unwanted cease fire is over.
66 days and counting.

[pelsar]

25. over 1000 tunnels....

according to the JPost Friday Nov 14, 2008 front page.......

cease fire was broken when the tunnel heading toward israel was destroyed.....bad idea of Hamas to take advantage of the cease fire to prepare for the next kidnapping....

and yes those who believe that some how hamas, the ruling party didnt know what the israeli reaction would be to the kassams simply prefer to believe that the hamas govt is so dumb that they cant be held responsible for their actions....now why is that?

[azurnoir]

26. The JPost article says "unnamed" sources

however are you suggesting that enough food can be smuggled to feed what UNRWA estimates to be 750,000 people? Not to mention that according to the article the tunnels are not run by Hamas, but by "the clans", if they are smuggleing food can everyone afford it?
And when did this all become Hamas again? Next kidnapping? They haven't had much luck with the first one.I still think it more likely there was Israeli/Palestinian smuggling going on, not food or arms but "consumer tech stuff", there seems to be a polarization in Gaza of haves and have not's, with if the UN's figures are accurate about 1/2 the population living in extreme poverty.

[pelsar]

27. how many tunnels?....

i didnt count and i'm not there.....but hamas surly knows....and its they that decided to try to kill israelis over the border knowing full well that the first reaction will be to close down the importing of food and fuel from israel.....so i guess they figure there is enough....or they dont care, either way its their call.

And when did this all become Hamas again?
This is all hamas since they are the governing body...that makes them responsible for the actions of those in gaza (i do believe you hold the israeli govt responsible for israeli citizen actions....or do you have a double standard?)

Israeli/Palestenian smuggling is via the UN.....tunnels into israel the IDF takes far to seriously for smugglers to want to chance...

[azurnoir]

28. How does Hamas know?

The article you sited states that the tunnels are run by clans and last I read there was bloodshed between them and Hamas.
The governing body knows everything that is going on, hmmm

(i do believe you hold the israeli govt responsible for israeli citizen actions....or do you have a double standard?)
no double standard, the "civilians" you speak of are the right wing west bank settlers who are supported and protected by the Israeli government, hardly the same as clans in Gaza, I do not hold the government in Israel responsible for things such as the Nazi party emerging in Israel or some of the stunts pulled by ulra orthodox groups in Israel.

As far as shoot to kill by the IDF depends on whats being smuggled, how much money is in it and for whom, drugs are a possibility too.

[pelsar]

29. its a double standard....clear as day...

....Hamas long ago took control of gaza with the routing of the major "fatah" clan that ran to israel....by taxing the tunnels importers its clear who has the "last word". more so by taxing the tunnel importers it also means that the govt is supporting them.

one cant tax what one doesnt control....now that we have that cleared up....are you still going to claim that hamas isnt responsible for the happenings in gaza? (I"m not talking about fringe groups.....)


funny how that works....when hamas decided that firing israel wasnt worth the response...all firing stopped......now that they decided its 'worth it"....are you telling me that they didnt expect israel to shut down the imports from israel?

[azurnoir]

30. Again last I heard Hamas and the clans were shooting

at each other, perhaps the clans owed back taxes? as for Hamas the taxes and the number of tunnels

"New tunnels must be approved by Hamas, and if you own your own tunnel, Hamas charges a fee," said one former senior intelligence officer, who is still working covertly in Rafah. Goods that make the trip of about 500 yards are subject to a 30 percent tax.

Tunnel entrances are located inside homes on both sides of the border. Some use simple pulley systems to transport goods, and some are more sophisticated, with electrical tracks and lighting, said the intelligence officer.

He estimated that 60 to 70 tunnels are operating along the 7.5 mile-long border and said Israel and Egypt are aware of their locations.

Israel has presented Egypt with surveillance footage showing Egyptian border-security officers assisting the smugglers. The footage was also sent to Washington , reportedly in an attempt to encourage Congress to withhold aid to Egypt .

But Egyptian officials say Israeli claims that tons of weaponry have entered Gaza through the tunnels are greatly exaggerated.

"Less than 10 percent of what Israel claims has been smuggled. The numbers they mention are technically impossible," said an Egyptian official in Israel. "American teams have visited the area."

http://www.cipmo.org/1501-indice-rassegna/egyptstunnels.html

As to "not being able to taxing a thing, unless one controls a thing" the IRS taxes marijuana and other illicit drugs, in fact it sells special stamps for that similar to those for tobacco and alcohol, but the neither the IRS nor the US government control the drug flow for all they try

[pelsar]

31. when was the last shooting?

between the Rafah clans and hamas?.....its been very very very quiet on that front for months now.... as the tunnel smuggling expands......and as we have seen from Tony Blairs sister in law and her picts.....not much shortage of food there while she goes shopping (google Lauren Booth, gaza, concentration camp etc....).

i'm sure the smugglers dont pay the full tax..they are after all smugglers...but they pay enough to keep hamas from shutting them down, that should be obvious.

so were back to the obvious: hamas controls gaza just as any govt controls its own land mass...and are responsible for its happenings....as they have proven when the kassams start and stop


so explain to me again how is it that Hamas doesnt control and isnt responsible for the happenings within gaza....the proof of that? (something lets say of the last few months or so...)

btw shari law is now being implemented in gaza...i'm sure many are "thrilled" at that as well (and if they dont control gaza that too wouldnt be possible would it?)

[azurnoir]

So is the Israeli government

responsible for any drugs smuggled into Israel? Can the Israeli government control it or do they try to? No government can control or is responsible for everything that goes on it's borders, simple truth and common sense. to hold Gaza to a higher standard than any other government is it self a double standard.

[pelsar]

37. its the same standard..

hamas is responsible for the comings and goings in to gaza...israel is responsible for its own as well.... whether or not they are successful or not is their problem....and has no bearings on their responsibilities.

whats so complicated about this..i believe it was you who tried to claim that hamas is not responsible for tunnels......(i.e. the comings and goings in gaza and the results of their own policies)

not that we've finally straightened out that....that not only does hamas know about the tunnels but that they tax them as well.....

The tunnel owners who have invested large sums in paying the diggers and supplying the equipment for construction work, make their money back after just two or three runs of merchandise. They say they have to pay a large tax to Hamas, but it is worth it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7727177.stm

___

lets see if we can establish the status of gaza today:
egypt and hamas share a border, egypt seems to open and close at will...so far the longest being 3 days...reaction from israel...zippo, nothing, nada.

its been show over and over again that israel closes its own borders after attacks from gaza.. simple cause and affect: kassams are launched, borders are closed. Hence hamas knows that if kassams are launched the borders will close...hence the responsibility lies totally with them.


Hamas has established that they are the rulers..and this includes the smuggling operation.

pictures from Blairs sister in law shows food is plenty in the stores.

according to the BBC the smugglers no longer smuggle in weapons..too many in gaza

and for the latest, which no doubt you will claim is not happening for at least 6 months until the reports come out "one after the other"..is that shari law is now being established in gaza...

[azurnoir]

38. Also from the BBC article

But so far, while basic goods have reappeared in the shops, the whole Strip remains isolated, with most industry and exports at a standstill.

you see if a large enough percentage of your people are living in poverty or are unemployed then it really doesn't matter what is "on the shelves" they still do not have money to buy the goods, American retailers are learning that lesson right now.
Not to mention the OP was about UNRWA food rations being short or gone, or are you saying that UNRWA is supplying grocery stores in Gaza, I was under the impression the UNRWA food distribution centers were more like soup kitchens and the food was given away.
As for the picture pf Blair's SIL I was being polite the picture which IMO was a Photoshop job at best was here on DU and deleted by the mods.

[pelsar]

39. back to hamas.....

responsibility of the ruling party....its that simple. Pretend they dont have the responsibility, pretend they dont mean what they say (when they've proved it over and over again) and you get nowhere.

Obviously trying to kill israelis is more important to them then the other options....its their call...just dont pretend it isnt.

the pict of Blair?....even if its photoshopped (which i really havent taken a close look at)...it just one of many reports from gaza....gaza has food, had food and has never been near "starvation"....if it were we would be seeing zillions of photos coming out of gaza, yet there is not a single one, not even a faked one for that matter.

[azurnoir]

42. What about Hamas?

The subject was anyway UN food distribution centers running out of food, as I said earlier the people getting food from these centers do not have the means to purchase it what difference does it make how well stocked the shelves are?

By your post I take it that the cease fire is over, odd how when it was in effect the stance was that it was groups other than Hamas, BTW how many Israelis have been killed in the recent hostilities? How many Palestinians?

Got any pictures of the tunnel that was supposedly for killing Israeli's or should we just take IDF's word for it?
As for pictures from Gaza I hear journalists are having difficulties getting those must be Hamas hiding all those feasting Palestinians, hard to look starving when you have shawarma juice dripping from ones chin:sarcasm: (just in case)

[pelsar]

43. Palestinians killed....lots more..

i always find the argument of how many more Palestinians killed vs israeli a welcome one....let me be very very clear about this: i am thankful that when there is shooting more of them get killed (Palestinians) than more of us (israelis). Feel free to take the quote out of context when needed. Its obviously a very personal matter of how fewer israelis are killed during the battles.

i have no idea what your talking about "other groups"....Hamas owns gaza and is responsible for it happenings.....period.

in case you dont know: gaza does have internet connections and they do have cameras....they dont need intl journalist for pictures.....or didnt you know that?
____


and the original argument of the UN food distribution centers running out of food, i dont doubt it....like i wrote in the beginning, hamas obviously took that into consideration when they started shooting rockets at israeli cities (i give them credit for understanding the concept of consequences for ones actions)..... probably that 30% tax on incoming stuff from egypt is just too tempting not to expand upon.

[azurnoir]

44. But But But they're terrorists

Hamas is the bad guy, thats all that counts right, that's all we're supposed to pay attention to. Worked quite well for decades, but no more. This is not about Hamas, but about Israel refusing to let an international aid agency bring food into Gaza, you can dodge, yell fire, quick look over there, nothing changes that fact no matter how hard you try to divert from it.

[shira]

45. but, but, but....

If it were only about Israel letting aid through, those meany zionists could also decide "no soup" for West Bank Palestinians too.....so gee, why would they pick on Gazans? Maybe Gaza isn't lobbing rockets?

See, you believe Hamas is so freaking stupid as to not realize their rockets would lead to border closure. You probably believe hurting their own people by bombing the crossings is the last thing Hamas wants when it's really EXACTLY what Hamas wants. You should really stop underestimating Hamas' intelligence.

Admit it, if this is all about Israel and not Hamas, then you also believe Hamas should not be held responsible for their actions.....after all they can do whatever they want and Israel should do nothing in response...it's not as if Hamas understands there should be a reaction to their belligerance when they target random Israelis.....maybe Hamas doesn't know better?

Tell me, should the world have ANY expectations from Hamas and HOW should the world hold Hamas responsible for terrorist actions? Or is it your opinion NOTHING should be done.....after all you say this is all about Israel.

No ducking and dodging....look over there, okay?

[azurnoir]

48. Spin it anyway youwant it changes nothing n/t

[shira]

49. lol

do you need more time to respond to my points or do you just concede that your positions are indefensible?

[azurnoir]

51. Your so called megaphoned talking points

are nothing more than spin, when I consider those points worthy of discussion, I do respond.
The simple fact is that you wish to change the subjest from enforcing hunger on innocent people to Hamas, for obvious reasons

[shira]

52. another duck , weave, and dodge

Is Hamas responsible in some way for this? If so, how should they be handled?

[azurnoir]

54. Isn't that according to you

what Israel is doing? Force hunger on the population of Gaza until they start an insurrection against Hamas, from a certain point of view might help that demographic problem too oh and then the added bonus of decrying the fate of the poor poor Palestinians.
You try to work from the POV that being against enforcing hunger on innocent people is somehow support of Hamas or is the POV really that there are no innocent Palestinians.
My POV is that there are innocents on both sides

[shira]

55. why can't you ever answer questions

What is Hamas' responsiblity in all this?

It's like asking you to define proportional force when is forced to defend. You can't answer that either.

[azurnoir]

56. It is a seperate subject

But I do understand why you want to focus on Hamas really I do and BTW you have never asked me to define "proportional force" before. As to that question the answer is obvious but apparently you do approve of enforcing hunger on women and children as a defensive tactic how brave you,
I just realized though there must have a shift change on the "watch"

[shira]

60. proportional force - hunger

If the definition of proportional force is obvious, would it include Israel responding to rockets with some of their own aimed (better of course) at random Gazans? Is that better than starving the population?

As for starvation, Hamas is in charge and knows the repurcussions of their actions. Who are we to tell Hamas how to govern? They were elected, right? They know "no bombs, aid comes in"....."bomb away, no aid". Or is Hamas just too retarded not to be responsible for their decisions?

Besides, they have about 1000 tunnels coming from Egypt, so we can only conclude they attacked aid convoys at the border due to being self-sufficient via the tunnels.

[azurnoir]

59. I did answer but keep on please n/t

[pelsar]

46. Hamas is the govt of gaza..

and that is all there is to it....but since your saying that the ruling govt is not responsible for the doings of its citizens/miltia...i assume you apply this to israel as well...or are we back to that double standard again.

For instance: all those boycott attempts against israels citizens because of what the Israeli govt does...i guess you will now claim loud and clear that you against them ...correct?

___

on second thought..perhaps i misunderstood you...do you believe that Hamas is NOT the government of gaza and therefore has no responsibility toward the inhabitants of gaza?

your now entering what is known as the "double standard"....why dont you make it clear: if hamas is the govt of gaza, they, like israel are then fully responsible for the actions and consequences of their actions. If you believe that hamas is in fact NOT the govt of gaza, then who do you believe is?....and should their election be declared invalid because....
___

I'm afraid hamas is really ruining years and years of PLO work which was to blur the distinction of them as govt and actions of their jihadnikim...hamas is making it all to clear that they are one and the same....it really screws up the: its always israels fault and gives them some real responsibility for their actions...bummer!

[azurnoir]

47. So the Israeli government is

responsible for every crime committed in Israel that's what your saying?
What Israel is responsible for in this case is the intentional blocking of food for needed by 1/2 of Gaza's citizens.
What does Israel hope to gain by this? What has it ever gained by such acts?
Ruining years and years of PLO work LOL

[henank]

50. The equation is really very simple

No rockets - yes food
Yes rockets - no food.

Here endeth the lesson.

[azurnoir]

58. So you too

approve of enforcing hunger on children as punishment? Wow the bravery here by the Pro's is stunning

[henank]

63. If Hamas has enough money for rockets

they have enough money for food.

[pelsar]

69. why do you think that only israeli can feed them?

why do you ignore egypt as a means of brining in food....isnt is safer?

why do you ignore the tunnels as a means of bringing in food....they appear to bring in everything according to the BBC......
they seem to be capitalistic oriented....anything missing in gaza seems to be imported by the tunnelers....why do you believe that doesnt include food...

why should israelis risk their lives to bring in supplies to hamas when hamas is trying to kill them? (i think thats what those missiles and border bombs are all about....)

3 simple questions.....

[pelsar]

53. you skipped the question......

let me repeat it:

do you believe that hamas is the governing body of gaza...and hence responsible for their welfare.....and for that matter to insure as much as they can (like every governing body) that they are responsible for law and order within their society.

that is the base question...if you agree then it will be clear that shooting rockets across the border is their choice and they are responsible for the obvious and well known response. If you dont believe that they are the governing body...well thats something else entirely

so which is it?


its actual hamas responsibility to feed its citizens not israels..but thats only if you agree that they are the governing body..

[azurnoir]

57. Is shooting rockets the choice of Hamas?

Until last week Hamas was supposedly trying to stop this from happening then all of the sudden (when IDF took advantage of the disorder in the Israeli government) it's all about Hamas how convient and telling
Bot yes Hamas is responsible for trying to trying to maintain order in Gaza, but are they also responsible for the safety of Gaza's people, what are they supposed to do when a neighboring country decides to attack a refugee camp with unmanned drones? Are you saying that Palestinians have no right to defend themselves? Is Hamas supposed to sit back and do nothing?

[henank]

61. The neigbouring country

didn't just wake up in the morning and say "I'm bored. Let's attack a refugee camp with drones". You know full well, and it is well documented, that the IDF discovered tunnels into Israel which were designed for kidnapping soldiers (or possibly even civilians. So the IDF bombed the tunnels. Hamas retaliated with rockets. Israel closed the border.

wash rinse repeat.

[azurnoir]

64. So IDF just "knew" the claimed tunnels were for

kidnapping IDF or civilians? What are they psychic or was it one of Shin Bets interrogations?
At this point I have grown more than tired of allowing your side to frame the discussion in a way meant to to completely distract from the OP, as your side constantly does whenever the subject might cast Israel in a bad light.

[pelsar]

62. obviously yes...its their choice

for two reasons..one, they have claimed responsibility....and two, they "own" gaza

its rather foolish to try mixup the facts/timeline with me....you should really try it with someone else.......the gaza "tit for 'tat" has been clear for a long time now...when the kassams are launched, israel retaliates and starts shooting up the launching sites, those that appear to be and those that are.

we all know that when there are no kassams there are no arial attacks....at least those of us who know the timeline... and besides...i would love to know how trying to kill israeli civilians is "defending themselves"

please i'm cant wait to hear how that works........
____

at least we have now cleared that up: hamas is responsible for order...how about making sure the population is fed?.....is that too their responsibility?

[azurnoir]

66. How is it when Israel kills civilians

as they do more often than not that is called defense? Oh that's right they did not do it on purpose it was Hamases fault, and you accuse Hamas or Egypt or anyone but Israel of not taking responsibility; pot meet kettle.

As I told Henack this has grown more that tired, the subject of the OP was the blockading of food meant for Gaza's civilian population by Israel, now while I understand you mission to distract from that by changing the subject to Hamas as I have said repeatedly it changes nothing Israel has chosen to force Palestinian civilians to go hungry as a means of revenge to call it defense makes a mockery of the word.
As for Hamas shooting rockets at civilians you are claiming there are no bases near Ashkelon or Sderot? Hmmm seems rather remiss of Israel.

[shira]

67. palestinian civilians killed recently?

Links?

Israel took out a tunnel adjacent to their border and pinpointed and killed only Hamas militants. In fact, Israel inadvertantly kills about 1 civilian for every 30 militants these days.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/939702.html

Yeah, kinda hurts your claim that Israel is as reckless as Hamas, doesn't it?

But back to the point, it's not surprising at all that being an extremist against Israel you refuse to assign any blame on Hamas for sending rockets every day for the past 2 weeks into Israel. Hamas knows the deal....rockets end, Israel sends in supplies.

Is it not clear that Hamas doesn't care whether Israel opens up the supply routes? Do you think Hamas cares that its civilians 'starve'? Or will you ignore this question too? Do you think Hamas is too stupid not to know that when they stop rocketing, the aid will resume?

Right no answer to that one either....and you wonder why so many people cannot take you and those who agree with you seriously. If you have answers, let's see them. Let's see how morally and ethically superior your arguments really are.

If Hamas really cares, there are 1000 tunnels from which they can bring in food. Do you agree or not? Or does Hamas have no responsiblity to feed their civilians by using those tunnels they CLEARLY control and tax?

If the rest of the world cares, there's Egypt through which needed supplies can go. Or is the world not responsible either....or do they really not care?

Maybe secretly, the anti-Israel extremists don't want the tunnels used or Egypt crossed for aid because then it's easier to blame Israel for any harm done to the Palestinians that these anti-Israel extremists claim to care for.

One more question for you....although you'll ignore this one too:

Name one other country in modern history under attack (under clear threat to its civlians like Israel), that has agreed to send aid, food, and supplies to the attacking enemy. If you cannot, maybe you should just admit Israel acts better than any other country in the history of modern warfare.

[azurnoir]

71. Operation Hot Winter was 8 months ago

that recent enough for you? Probably not because it doesn't serve the purposes of those who's joob it to reframe an argument for their purposes, the OP was about enforcing hunger on innocent people a subject you kept to until you lost the argument, then you return days later on the coattails of another Pro who is famed on this board for reframing the argument and asking unanswerable questions.
As to how good hearted Israel is it is merely very marginally keeping to an agreement a past leader made a leader who died for making that agreement. As for the food aid Israel is not paying for and is allowing that aid in because Israel is blockading the sea and air ways something that Israel used as a pretext for war in 1967 when it was on the receiving end.
As for your question the answer is none,
Now for mine who "megaphoned" that question to you or are claiming you came up that yourself?

[pelsar]

73. dont know much about "megaphone"... but i finally get it...

all my answers/questions are mine..based on my own actual experience in the field, those of my family and friends etc, but you already know that..... but i think i finally i get it:

when you say "framed"...you actually mean "in context".....you dont like the context, the environment, it ruins the simplicity of blaming israel for its actions while ignoring all the events around it.

an IAF aircraft killing Palestinians is a great story on how evil those israelis are:..the context that they were firing a missile would ruin the storyline, hence its ignored, when condemning israel. The most interesting question is why?...why is the context (the framing) to be ignored?...what is the sinister reasoning behind it?

you dont like the complex scenarios (the real life framing)..which is why you refuse to answer them....it would ruin you simplistic stance....i get it...you call it framing, i call it real life.

[azurnoir]

76. My reply was to Shira not you

if something got confused I apologize however both of you have replied to the same comment a few times here.

[Vegasaurus]

80. Why don't you enlighten us here

with statistics on other beseiged country that is expected to feed, clothe, provide electricity and fuel, as well as advanced medical techniques, for people who are trying to kill them (even by bombing the very crossings providing THEIR supplies)?

There isn't one.

Israel is held to a substantially different standard than any other country in the entire world.

[azurnoir]

85. Israel is providing the food in the UN trucks? n/t

[pelsar]

68. didnt answer the question...again and again and again...

you call it "framing' as an excuse not to answer.....those questions are "framed" from an israeli point of view....perhaps you believe that certain cultures and their point of view simply are not worth answering.....


why is it that any question you ask directly i have no problem answering whereas direct questions i ask...get diverted. And if claim that you do answer my questions i shall be happy to put them forth again: here is one example:

how is targeting israeli civilians a defense when the IDF attacks the tunnels and missile launchers (i guess you missed the grad missiles landing in ashkelon):...please note i believe you defended hamas attacks on israeli civilians as defense...how does that work...and further note the question is about Palestinian actions, not israelis. (defense connotates protecting ones own, i believe)
___

i have no "mission" to distract from the OP.....i just find it interesting and curious how you wish to take israels action out of context...as if all of a sudden israel decided to 'starve" the Palestenians simple because they felt like it. You have refused to even accept the now proven again and again that when the missiles fly israel closes down the border...

a direct question: why do you refuse to even acknowledge that very well established fact?

[azurnoir]

70. I have refused no answer nothing

again and again you pkay this if you do not get the desired answer to a questioned framed in a win-wim mammor for of course Israel you deny you got an answer.
You and the other Pro's on this board have an obvious mission which is to combat and frame anything that may cast Israel in a bad light as somehow OK, a battle you over all are losing regardless of whether or not 2 or 3 of you can keep spewing the same stuff over and over here.
You seek to make legitimate the enforced hunger of innocent people something that you can not do end of story.

[pelsar]

72. and you seem to defend targeting civilians..as legitmate

didnt you write that hamas missiles are the "defense" against israeli attacks (dont you love it when ones true feelings somehow slip through...)....how is trying to kill israeli children a defense?. but far more interesting is that attacking israeli civilians is somehow less severe than closing the food imports when there are obvious options.....

how is it enforced hunger if there are other options?.....

how is asking why egypt cant/isnt (or is) bring in supplies "framing the question"....

why do you think hamas is so dumb they didnt realize that shooting missiles will close down the borders
___

tough questions i know.......and i dont even think there is a frame around them.....

[azurnoir]

74. How is actually killing Palestinian children a defense?

you now claim I support the killing of Israeli civilians, I asked a question the conclusions and accusations are yours.
As for Egypt the answer is simple the conflict is between Israel and Gaza, this is an example of trying to shift blame or focus pure and simple. The conflict is not Egypt's problem as much as the Israeli government would like to make it theirs or at least keep the focus on Egypt.
Your questions are hardly tough or even leading any more
As for not allowing aid into Gaza, that will accomplish what?
Of course there were other options Israel chose to take the law in Gaza into their own hands knowing full well what the results would be prior to the raid Israel could have informed Hamas of knowledge of the tunnel into Israel and given Hamas a chance to destroy it, the Israeli government or IDF chose not to do that.
In all of this what about Gilad Shalit? That question hads ben in my mind since I first heard about the raid 12 days ago.

[pelsar]

77. isnt this what you wrote?

what are they supposed to do when a neighboring country decides to attack a refugee camp with unmanned drones? Are you saying that Palestinians have no right to defend themselves? Is Hamas supposed to sit back and do nothing?

question 1:
hamas is shooting rockets at ashklon and sederot....how is trying to kill israeli civilians 'defense"....

reaction:
you say that egypt is not involved in this conflict, hence they dont have any obligation to help with humanitarian aid to the gazans... WOW!!! so if i understand the answer, were not talking about real humanitarian aid, which i believe is supposed to transcend borders, but it is far more important that israel be forced to endanger its citizens to bring in supplies to gaza. And if israel refuses....its far better to let the gazans go hungry then find an alternate route. At least we cleared that up...still using the Gazans as pawns........

Not allowing aid in to gaza is one of the very few leverages israel has to limit the kassams.....maybe it works maybe it doesnt, but the israeli population doesnt accept that israel should deliver supplies to hamas while they are trying to kill us.....

Informing hamas?....so they would "close the tunnel"....destruction of the tunnel and house above it and those digging it, is a better "message".The past experiences of informing the PA, wasnt too successful.

Gilat Shalit is in the news almost every day here....funny how the red cross or all those nice UN people or even those who came on the boats dont believe he deserves basic rights...maybe food for Gilat?...or doesnt he count?

[pelsar]

79. yes its been enlightening..

sometimes it takes a very very long time...but if one keeps at it....

you have made it very clear, that your more concerned with "israeli responsibility toward gaza" than having the children there fed:

As for Egypt the answer is simple the conflict is between Israel and Gaza, this is an example of trying to shift blame or focus pure and simple. The conflict is not Egypt's problem as much as the Israeli government would like to make it theirs or at least keep the focus on Egypt.

for those who are concerned with just the humanitarian aspect, they wouldn't give a shit about who is "responsible" and would look at other options at getting supplies in and not discount so easily the Egyptian option....and especially not claim, that its none of Egyptians business...

____________
you appear to be one more that is using the Palestinians as pawns in regards to israel...better that they go "hungry" than put some pressure on egypt (which would then relieve the pressure and responsability on israel)....that appears to definitely be your view of the events.

at least that is now clear.

[azurnoir]

82. The only thing that is clear is that

someone is apparently getting dizzy from spinning.
So Israel wants Egypt to allow food to enter out of concern for Palestinians?

[pelsar]

88. you miss the point....

i dont care what the israeli govt wants...i do find it most interesting that your priorities are not feeding the "hungry" Palestinians but that the food and supplies goes through israel and not egypt....even if it means the gazans dont get the supplies

that can be the only reason why you believe egypt should not be opening its border to bring in supplies..at least that i can think of.

[pelsar]

75. the question is just in context....

the object is not casting israel in a "bad light'...the object is putting the actions within context...what you call framing.....and when you do that Hamas and friends do not come out shining very well...in fact they become the main factor for any enforced hunger in gaza...

but that only is, providing one respects the Hamas govt as a group of intelligent people.....so the question is...why do you think hamas are a bunch of morons that couldnt figure out that if they shoot rockets the borders will close down?

or am i framing it again?

[azurnoir]

84. Has Hamas claimed responsibility for the rockets?

Or is that Israel's claim? What is passing strange is that until a couple of weeks ago Israel was going along with Hamas in that they were trying to control militants, then sometime around November 3 or 4 something must have happened because on discovering a tunnel IDF decided to break the cease fire while of course claiming it wasn't really breaking the cease fire. Actually all of the actions since that have been quite predictable. IMO IDF took advantage of weak leadership and an election cycle in Israel, having failed earlier to provoke the desired response by closing those evil soup kitchens and shopping malls on the West Bank.
As for the border closing did Hamas know this? Is Hamas shooting the rockets you claim Hamas is a legitimate government if so then Israel's actions from bombing to blockading harbors and food supplies are an of war just as Israel claimed when Egypt blockaded the Strait of Tiran.

[pelsar]

87. yes hamas has claim responsibility...and more so...

they claim responsibility for gaza and have proven that they control it......(al quidas allies in gaza has also claimed a few launches)

so lets clarify this: do you believe that hamas controls gaza and is now responsible for what happens within ....at one point you said they were responsible for the internal order... i assume that includes people who shoot rockets....

As for the border closing did Hamas know this? .

..are you seriously wondering if hamas knew that israel would close the borders when the kassams went flying?....do you really believe they are that dumb?


srael's actions from bombing to blockading harbors and food supplies are an of war...yes, bombing a society, is an act of war....stopping supplies that are in israel from entering gaza is not an act of war, stopping supplies entering from the sea would be....shooting rockets at israeli cities is also an act of war.....

this gaza thing has nothing to do with the elections......and in fact has no effect on the various political positions....

[azurnoir]

89. Hamas responded to a clear act of war

Just as Israel did in 1967 when it attacked Egypt on the pretext of the Strait of Tiran being blockaded.
Both sides IMO have now violated the truce, Israel has been committing acts of war ever the so called "pull out" from Gaza by blockading Gaza's airspace and waters to deny that is a double standard.
BTW "nice" editing of comment, waiting to how this one is parsed.

[pelsar]

93. so we agree there is a war going on.....

so why then should israel feed the enemy?.....

and i'm still confused...you claimed earlier that hamas is defending itself by trying to kill israeli civilians...you still havent cleared that up...how is targeting israeli civilians defending one self?.....feel free to put in any framework you like......(i always like it when the truth slips out.....)

___

i sense multiple contradictions and double and triple standards on your part: you seem to say israel or supplies via israel must feed and clothe the gazans.....and if israel refuses to, then nobody else should either (you dont like the idea of putting pressure on egypt).....doesnt seem very humanitarian to me...more like using the gazans as pawns......doesnt it?

now you claim there is a war between the two.....if that is the case, i dont believe there is a single instance in history where one of the waring factions delivered supplies to its enemy....and you expect this out of israel?...why is israel so different?

__
btw i always double and triple edit my posts..i tend to type fast and only seem to find the mistakes after the third or fourth time..i'm surprised you never noticed that before (I'm not really sure what your comment on my editing was supposed to mean..can you explain?)

[azurnoir]

94. Ah but Israel is not "feeding" the enemy

the international the UN is, and it those trucks that Israel will not allow through the crossings, also are you now claiming that Israel is also at war with the UN? What the diesel fuel payed for by the EU? Is Israel at war with EU too.
Please stop trying to insinuate that Israel is paying for this aid Israel is not.
You also realize do you not that enforcing hunger and eventually malnutrition which leads to death on children and the civilian population is tiptoeing the edge of genocide very close but not quite at least yet, however I doubt that close but not quite line will not be crossed.
As for militant attacks, the claims that they are aimed at civilians cause me to wonder, how is shooting rockets at fields aiming at civilians, additionally you did not answer my question about military installations near Ashkelons water desalination facilities.

[shira]

98. you keep missing the point

It doesn't matter whether Israel pays for the aid or desires to feed Palestinians.....

....the point is there are other options to feed and aid Palestinians and AVOID genocide by starvation.

1. Hamas stops rockets. Aid comes in.

2. Hamas brings food/aid through hundreds of tunnels.

3. Egypt allows aid in through their border at Rafah.

If you are so concerned about Palestinians, you'd fight tooth and nail for these 3 options and at the very least you'd put the onus of responsibilty equally on Hamas and Egypt. Sure, blame Israel all you want but let's not pretend Hamas should avoid responsibility for its own people and could easily solve the humanitarian crisis on their own. Let's not pretend Egypt cannot allow food in.

If you're as pro-Palestinian as you claim to be, why is your focus almost entirely on being anti-Israel? Use some of that indignation to help starving Palestinians by being just as anti-Hamas and anti-Egypt as you are anti-Israel.

That is, if you really care.

Or, like the rest you can do and say nothing about Hamas and Egypt, watch as Palestinians suffer and get your jollies by blaming Israel. That's what it looks like from my vantage point.

[Vegasaurus]

81. Hamas has never cared about the safety or welfare of its people

It cares about one thing and one thing only, which is killing Israelis.

If Hamas put the welfare of its people first, like any sane government, they would stop shooting rockets, stop terrorism, and accept Israel.

Instead, they want to blame all of their internal problems on Israel or the US.

Much easier than every accepting responsibility for their own misery.

[azurnoir]

83. Unlike Israel who wants it to be Egypt's fault

does the word projection hold any meaning.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[azurnoir]

41. Ah yeah keep up the good work there

with propaganda, you do us a favor every time you post thanks

[subsuelo]

99. not to mention - both sides elected terrorists for leaders

but it's only one side we're supposed to condemn for that

[Shaktimaan]

100. That's funny. You want to know why? OK, so maybe both sides have elected terrorists...

...but only one side ever elected ACTIVELY WORKING terrorists.

I assume you're referring to Menachem Begin when you say that both sides elect terrorists. Well, so what? The Palestinians elected Arafat, who was certainly a terrorist and no one had any problems with allowing him to lead. The problems arose when an ACTIVE terrorist ORGANIZATION (as opposed to singular, retired terrorists) is elected as a political party to office as was/is the case with both Hamas and Hezbollah.

Again, no one condemned the Palestinians for electing Arafat. But electing Hamas was a different story. There is no comparable group that's ever been elected to power in Israel. I suppose you could imagine that if the Irgun had not been disbanded but had instead formed the Irgun political party (all while remaining a potent terrorist group operating above the law) which then won an election by a landslide, taking over the Knesset on a platform of expelling all of the Palestinians and re-taking the entire original Mandate area's land for Israel.

[DU GrovelBot]

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